My Own Bogota Apartment Horror Story

RAAAY says on Feb 11, 2008, 17:40:

It's not easy........but it is not impossible...................seems easier if you can deal with the owner direct..............do'nt even give the agent your information........instead ask for the owners phone number.....and then get a local to call..........worked for me........maybe I was just lucky........

By the way..............It's not easy to rent in the States either............try renting with no bank account......no credit history.......no social security card.......no American driving license.....no copies of prior utility bills......................without these you won't get many returned calls either.......and loads of arrogance........

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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CatGirl says on Feb 11, 2008, 17:46:

mpyne:
I have never experienced anywhere the distrust, unwillingness to help, and pure and utter ARROGANCE that I have seen in this city

You just described my ex perfectly! Run! hahaha

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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arthur brode says on Feb 11, 2008, 18:09:

i have some nice unfurnished 1br/2br/3br apartments for rent here in sunny Cali.
no redtape involved

http://www.calirentals.net/

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pedro says on Feb 11, 2008, 18:32:

I don't suppose you have your visa and cedula (ID card) organised yet?

If you have a cedula you can sometimes open up a term deposit account at the bank and use that as security for the lease.

Co-signers can sometimes be found who are happy to sign up for you in return for a small cash payment.

I know it shouldn't be necessary, but this is the reality of dealing with the agencies. I understand it's partly a consequence of the busted legal system and tenants' rights.

que nota!

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la campiña says on Feb 11, 2008, 18:38:

Have you heard the one about the brit that lived in La Campiña north of Cali 2 minutes from chipi plastica and payed the water bill for a family the floor above (8 people) for 6 months without knowing, when informed EMCALI came round with quote "profesional equipment to find the rogue water pipe", that was going upwards to the aformentioned apartment.Have you ever seen a giant stethoscope, well they listened to the walls like a desperate doctor would searching for the faintest heartbeat, ha, all to no avail, so unlike doctors thankfuly, they employed large men with huge biceps to randomly beat and smash holes in any wall close to them.2 weeks later dust debris chaos, a gargantuan decision was made, lets re plumb the water into the abode using new pipes, HALLELUAGH, etc, All done, fixed, great, and I didnt care about the eye sore of the new pipes being on the outside of the walls, they work and the water is mine, mine all mine. OOHH why is the floor wet I thought as I hurtled across my living room on my arse, only a few days had past from the "enlightening of water experience" when I had my first lesson in urban surfing across my own home space. Absorb this kind folk, the pipes used to install my new water system, ( mine alone) were plastic conduit, only used for electric cable, thankfully no electric cable was involved so the water pressure had a gay old time gradualy squeezing and splitting and guiding brother agua into my casita. It took another month to fix all , but realy when I think back, is there any significance to my memories of the guy upstais running to the ground floor where all the electric terminals are and ushering franticaly a man himself a little flustered, and I quote although I heard from a stair well " CORTE LOS CABLES; AHORA; AVE MARIA PUES"........ I kid you not

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jonas says on Feb 11, 2008, 18:42:

mpaiyne
It ain´t easy... but it can be done, you wouldn´t be the first to succeed. Now, you mentioned "insurance company guarantee" I don´t know if you mean the following but it is an option: I believe "Agricola de Seguros" as well as "AIG seguros" offer a service that serves as fiador. You certainly will have to pay for this but it might just get you out of the hole you are in at the moment. Don´t give up yet. Or try to find a gringo who will rent to you, like arthur´s offer for Cali. And yes, Colombia is probably the most difficult place to rent, at least in South America. And then there is the rest of the bureaucracy crap that will torture you, but that´s just latin...
I wish you the best of luck, if I can be of any help PM me. Keep us updated on how it goes.

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

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Gator says on Feb 11, 2008, 18:48:

As you are finding out really, really tough without a Colombian cosigner. I would reread Raaay's comment several times. Three primary questions:

1. What visa are you in country with. I assume NOT a tourist visa or you have missed the
15 day registration time frame with DAS to get your Cédula.

2. Have you established a banking relation yest-at a minimum a letter of credit.

3. Do you have established contacts in Colombia are or you just shooting from the hip?

You said, "...and looking forward to opening an internet marketing operations center here to service my customers in the United States..." Then you have a business visa in hand?

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

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webmanco says on Feb 11, 2008, 18:56:

It looks like you are looking for an aparment office at the same time, is that the way you had approach the real state people? I seems also you don´t have enough contacts in Colombia, the higher the price of the property you want to rent the more the requirenments to qualify.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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gringoloid says on Feb 11, 2008, 19:25:

mpayne....the best thing to do today is to calm down and try not to get worked up over this. It is just something you have to work through. you're going to find many other challenges just like this in every day living here.

I was so fed up with trying to rent an apartment in Medellin a year ago that I packed up and moved to Bogota.

if you get to the end of the rope, I know of a very large, not too nice apartment in cedritos you can rent. it's not the greatest but you can stay there as long as you like.

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ujay says on Feb 11, 2008, 19:40:

101,if it helps you out ,i got a room for you and your own bathroom,and a guy from the office will sort out a place for you in a few days ,pm me if it help.

www.unionjackedfilms.com

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Lostgringo says on Feb 11, 2008, 20:03:

You are experiencing what most of us have gone through in Colombia. I had a friend who offered to pay for an apartment 6 months in advance. The owner refused it. My girlfriend who happened to own an apartment in the same building could not believe it. She said to me, "the Gringo has money why does this man not want it?" To make a long story short, she is now renting her fully furnished apartment to Gringos.

When I rented an apartment in Colombia they even took a "thumb print" in Notary Public's Office. The upside to all of this if, and that's a BIG IF, you qualify you are usually not required to pay any deposit. Here is a little tip that may help. One thing you may want to try is to approach a few lawyers. They can vouch for you and help you out allot. Lawyers are so cheap in Colombia.

If all else fails my girlfriend may have a vacancy when you need it. The apartment has wifi. Good luck with your apartment hunting.

Also, you want to leave Colombia and set up your business in the Philippines. That's what I am doing right now. I am willing to help you anyway I can with this.

http://welovebogota.com
http://apartmentinbogota.com

Your Home Away from Home www.welovebogota.com and www.apartmentinbogota.com "Luxury apartments and rooms Cheap" Only 2 blocks from the American Embassy! 24/7 hour security.

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 11, 2008, 20:46:

I rented an apartment in Villavo without too much problem. It took us almost 3 weeks to find it and sign a contract. The mother in law did co-sign. Later, as I kind of learned the "ins and outs", the way to do it is to deal directly with the apartment owner. And to do that, you need to walk the streets, talk to guards / doormen, respond to for rent signs posted in windows and guard shacks, etc.

Also, and I could be totally wrong, but my first reaction if I were in your shoes would be to look for a lower estrato barrio. Lots of guys here will probably disagree. But, you probably can find a perfectly clean, nice, but modest apartment or house, in say 1 de Mayo, that is estrato 3. The cost would be in the neighborhood of 400.000cop to 550.000cop per month depending. Personally, I would rather live in barrios like that, than in the grossly more expensive barrios in the north. I have lots of personal reasons for that, but I will refrain from hijacking. Anyway, you will also have a much better chance of talking directly to owners in those types of barrios. And, you will have more luck finding somebody who is willing to "take a risk" on you. I would hesitate from ever paying somebody more than first and last month rent. If you do that, you put yourself at risk of getting screwed. Screwed being: a dishonest owner could say you never paid him anything and stick somebody else in the apartment. What are you going to do? You just lost a lot of money.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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Lostgringo says on Feb 12, 2008, 02:21:

I never thought of some those tactics Robert Jorge. Maybe I will have use some of those on my return to Colombia. I think we should start a new thread:

HUNTING FOR A CHEAP APARTMENT IN COLOMBIA? A gringo's survival kit!

Or the 10 best ways for Gringos to get a cheap apartment in Colombia.

http://www.welovebogota.com

http://www.apartmentinbogota.com

Your Home Away from Home www.welovebogota.com and www.apartmentinbogota.com "Luxury apartments and rooms Cheap" Only 2 blocks from the American Embassy! 24/7 hour security.

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podborski says on Feb 12, 2008, 03:57:

I keep telling people the best business to be in in colombia is renting apartments to extranjeros.

The apartments just have to be in the best part of the city.

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gringoloid says on Feb 12, 2008, 05:07:

Why don't we have 'stickies' here to help people out?

There was a guy who bought a home and wrote everything down. Elk wrote all the details on a rentista visa. I noticed on cblog that he has a list of do's and don'ts for dealing with colombianas as a sticky.

All of this valuable information is hard to get to when you need it.

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bickerss says on Feb 12, 2008, 07:05:

there are aparthotels you can rent with no problems. There are two near zona rosa which cost 840,000 pesos a month - not the nicest but ok. They have little tiny kitchens in them. There are also aparthotels in Chapinero for similar prices.

I am in rodadero at the moment and have been pleasently surprised - you can rent apartments here as a foreighner with two months advance payment - no stupid paperwork involved.

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mpayne101 says on Feb 12, 2008, 12:39:

RAAY-----

Thanks for the tips... and don't take this the wrong way...

But have you been to Atlanta lately? If you have 1 month rent and 1 month deposit, they will give you 6 months FREE RENT! Half of the apartments in Atlanta have been rented by illegal Mexicans (of which I know many of them). They can't GIVE apartments away. They are willing to rent to anyone who will fill the apartment up. I have seen this same thing in Orlando and Miami as well.

I have tried dealing with owners and agencies, and I thought the same thing, that dealing direct with the owners would be easier. I have found a few people will to rent to me with 3 months up front, but those are the ones that are charging triple what the property is worth.

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mpayne101 says on Feb 12, 2008, 12:54:

CatGirl ---

Very Cute!

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mpayne101 says on Feb 12, 2008, 12:57:

arthur brode ---

I have considered relocating to another city here such as Santa Marta, because having lived 10 years in the Caribbean, I am absolutely a beach baby at heart.... however opening our offices in a smaller city would probably not be a good idea, as for my business we require highly specialized technical resources that are even difficult to find in the United States.

We are the first operation of our kind in this country, and we realize that we will have to train everyone we hire, but at least we are trying to find candidates with as specialized a background as possible to give us a running start.

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mpayne101 says on Feb 12, 2008, 13:02:

pedro says on Monday February 11th, 2008 18:32:

I don't suppose you have your visa and cedula (ID card) organised yet?

If you have a cedula you can sometimes open up a term deposit account at the bank and use that as security for the lease.

----

Pedro,

I entered on a tourist visa choosing to go the "buy a residency" route that I have done in other countries. I have not tried to do this yet because I'm not convinced I will stay here with the current delemna.

I know that Agricula de Seguros will serve as a guarantor if I deposit 6 months of rent with them plus paying the first month rent on the apartment, however I'm not happy about tying up US6-10,000 for a year given the large investment I must make here to a high tech operations center running. For the office, I don't have a problem doing this, but for my apartment, that was definitally NOT in the budget.

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mpayne101 says on Feb 12, 2008, 13:04:

Jonas,

"Or try to find a gringo who will rent to you, like arthur´s offer for Cali."

-----

There are a couple of gringos who have or know of spaces available and willing to rent, but neither are at the calibre of apartment I am looking for, although I did appreciate their willingness/efforts.

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mpayne101 says on Feb 12, 2008, 13:06:

webmanco says on Monday February 11th, 2008 18:56:

"It looks like you are looking for an aparment office at the same time, is that the way you had approach the real state people? I seems also you don´t have enough contacts in Colombia, the higher the price of the property you want to rent the more the requirenments to qualify."

-----

In a perfect world, I would rent both the office and apartment from the same agency, however the way it looks, IF i am able to get an apartment, and thats a big IF, I will probably be renting from an owner, and getting the office through someone else.

I have found that you are correct, the higher the price, the harder to rent.

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gringoloid says on Feb 12, 2008, 13:08:

mpayne.....my offer still stands for an awesome apartment in Rosales, with no paperwork, and no lease, as well as a reasonable price.

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mpayne101 says on Feb 12, 2008, 13:14:

LostGringo---

"If all else fails my girlfriend may have a vacancy when you need it. The apartment has wifi. Good luck with your apartment hunting."

------

I checked out the website for your girlfriend's apartment, and although the area isn't exactly where I'd like to be, I'm open to almost anything right now. I think the US$1650/month price is reasonable for a 3 bedroom -- however I'm not looking for a three bedroom so its somewhat out of my budget.

If you have any other ideas for a 1-2 bedroom furnished... please do let me know.

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mpayne101 says on Feb 12, 2008, 13:19:

gringoloid says on Tuesday February 12th, 2008 13:08:

mpayne.....my offer still stands for an awesome apartment in Rosales, with no paperwork, and no lease, as well as a reasonable price.

------

Thanks Gringoloid, but I didn't see anything form you on an apartment in Rosales. I saw something on a "not so nice" apartment in Cedritos.... I would be interested in seeing it. Do you have an email? If you have one in Rosales... better yet....

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mpayne101 says on Feb 12, 2008, 13:26:

Robert Jorge says on Monday February 11th, 2008 20:46:

I rented an apartment in Villavo without too much problem. It took us almost 3 weeks to find it and sign a contract. The mother in law did co-sign. Later, as I kind of learned the "ins and outs", the way to do it is to deal directly with the apartment owner. And to do that, you need to walk the streets, talk to guards / doormen, respond to for rent signs posted in windows and guard shacks, etc.

---------

I tried going out with my driver for two straight days. Talking to doormen, etc.etc... no luck.... 90% of apartments are rented through agencies.... I saw over 20 apartments this way. And THAT is alot of apartment shopping.

Regarding living in a estrato 2-3-4 area; I don't really feel safe in those areas because I don't know the city yet. I'm sure I will know where to feel safe and where not to feel safe in the future, but as of right now, I'll stick with the estrato 5-6 areas.

Thanks for the advice on not paying alot of rent in advance, it makes since and i'll remember it.

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mpayne101 says on Feb 12, 2008, 13:30:

bickerss says on Tuesday February 12th, 2008 7:05:

"there are aparthotels you can rent with no problems. There are two near zona rosa which cost 840,000 pesos a month - not the nicest but ok. They have little tiny kitchens in them. There are also aparthotels in Chapinero for similar prices.

I am in rodadero at the moment and have been pleasently surprised - you can rent apartments here as a foreighner with two months advance payment - no stupid paperwork involved."

-----------

The apartahotels won't work for me for the long term, but until I can get an apatment it might be an option. Where can I get a list of places at that price. I haven't seen ANYTHING on the net at those prices you mentioned.

I thought about moving to Santo Marta where you are, because a friend told me I wouldn't have problems there, but I mentioned in a post above why I didn't. I was actually about to buy the plane ticket last week.

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wendell13 says on Feb 12, 2008, 17:31:

Did I read that right when you said that you think $1650 US a month is reasonable for a 3 bedroom in Medellin?

Wow! I was just in Miami and stayed with my ex at her apartment. She pays $1450 a month for a large, 3 BR, brand new townhouse type apartment in a brand new area in a nice area.

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miamimike says on Feb 12, 2008, 19:09:

$1650 will get you a large 2 br-2ba in Sunny Isles here in the North Miami Beach area minutes from the Beach. ,,,seems high for Colombia

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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jonas says on Feb 12, 2008, 19:13:

hmmm is that why Colombians go to SOUTH beach?

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

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morphus says on Feb 13, 2008, 06:46:

You could start out with an apartamento amoblado. I found a nice one in Bogota for 70,000 a day. Thats in the price range you are looking for around 2,000,000 a month. Its was accross the street from that university with the long name Jav_______________________ia? Mid way between La Zona Rosa and Centro. Look in Lapaginasarmarillas.com

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Lostgringo says on Feb 13, 2008, 09:13:

You have to remember guys we are talking about a FULLY FURNISHED 3 bedroom apartment complete with all the bells and whistles and 24/7 security. Compare this to one hotel room where you have to pay $100 a day with no wifi and no ability to cook etc. Do the math: 30 X $100 = $3,000 times that again by 3 rooms = $9,000. That's what allot of hotels are actually making in Bogota. Even at 1/3 of that price they are still making $3,000. So why is it so expensive to rent the entire 3 bedroom apartment fully furnished at that price for around $1,600? Everything included.

I like a deal like the rest of you but finding a fully 3 bedroom apartment in Bogota is going to be hard. At any price. Also, many places do not want anyone setting up a business in their apartment. I am not allowed to that where I live. If I started having allot of people coming and going here I would get my notice real fast.

I mean the daily room rate for my g/f's entire 3 bedroom apartment is $55 a night for 30 days. Most places are not in the business to really rent on a monthly basis anyway. Check out other rental places in Bogota and you will find they are more expensive.

Personally I could not afford to rent an apartment for $1,600 a month. But in a pinch I would rent a room a room in Martha's apartment for only $17.99 A NIGHT. That is what I was suggesting. I though he may want to do this while he looked for his apartment. That is all I was suggesting. I wasn't not suggesting he rent by the month. I was just thinking we could get him a room for a few days.

Miami Mike, why not tell us how much your friend Bob at Colombia Lodging charges? Your always promoting him with his links. Before jumping on the gang wagon here with your hidden agenda. Try $59.00 a night with no elevator. Anyway, Bob is our competition and he is a great guy. I think next time I am in Bogota I am going to rent a room from him in his finca in the mountains.


Just my thoughts guys.

Franko

http://www.welovebogota.com
http://www.apartmentinbogota.com

Your Home Away from Home www.welovebogota.com and www.apartmentinbogota.com "Luxury apartments and rooms Cheap" Only 2 blocks from the American Embassy! 24/7 hour security.

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Lostgringo says on Feb 13, 2008, 09:51:

mpayn101 I just had a brain storm. Ask for Bob at Colombian Lodging and see if you can rent his finca. He does rent it out and he may give you a deal on a long term lease. He is great guy and can tell some great stories about Colombia. It will be fully furnished and I am sure he has internet.

Your Home Away from Home www.welovebogota.com and www.apartmentinbogota.com "Luxury apartments and rooms Cheap" Only 2 blocks from the American Embassy! 24/7 hour security.

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 13, 2008, 15:08:

Some of the highest street-crime rate areas of Bogota are in privileged (rich) areas. That is where the money is at. Don't believe me, ask Rubito ... he has freaking stats with actual street numbers and intersections.

Now, I am not saying to go to an estrato 1 or 2 in deep south Bogota. But there are many "normal" barrios that are actually comparatively quite safe compared to some "rich" areas.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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gringoloid says on Feb 15, 2008, 11:28:

Rubito......it's not a pain in the ass dealing with me. i represent many apartments here in Bogotá, some furnished.

Some come with no deposit........some do as a result of the quality furnishings.

All come with no paperwork or cosigners. All are reasonably priced.

I wonder about the sincerity of the OP as he was pm'd and never returned my offer.

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pedro says on Feb 15, 2008, 15:25:

Rubi, have you moved into the place yet?

Before you call it hassle free, better wait and check the water pressure, sound-proofing and quality of the finishings. A lot of these complexes are built to a price point and don't have the quality you might imagine.

que nota!

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 16, 2008, 08:36:

How many years at 18% Rubito? Sounds like your new place is going to be awesome.

There are quite a few quality issues in typical Colombian contruction that I just don't get. For example, why do they not install a threaded nipple (pipe) that a shower head screws onto? Everybody breaks off their shower head, and then they are stuck with a pipe shooting water out like a hose for the shower. I could come up with a dozen more examples - but I will refrain from hijacking.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 16, 2008, 21:56:

Another thing to look into - see if you can get toilets that actually have replaceable seats. I never went into a Bogota Home Center looking for them, but at least in Villavo, it is impossible to buy a replacement toilet seat.

One more thing to check out Rubito. Get a level and make sure there is a slight downward angle in the shower floor TOWARDS the drain. Colombian shower floors seem to be notorious for ponding water, because the water can't flow towards the drain.

If at all possible, get them to put more than the usual one recept (electric plug-in) per room too. An average Colombian kitchen might have one place to plug in the fridge, microwave, toaster, whatever.

A 10 year payoff of the mortgage is fantastic. I know 18% sounds terrible to most people in the US, since we have been used to 5 to 7% for 8 years now. But we are also used to 30 year loans - not 10 year loans.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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webmanco says on Feb 17, 2008, 07:55:

Most apartments bought while in construction give you the chance to had aditional electrical points as well as phone plates in different places. There are many other optionals, it will be more expensive but it is needed as RJ said.

You could even chose to have a bigger living roon instead of the maids room or service room.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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c2 says on Feb 20, 2008, 15:18:

mpayne... I have an apartment in Rosales available.. for one month, one week, 1 year, ... I am a gringo and there is a deposit and I may be adding a small contract. I am pretty sure my ad appears here on PoorButHappy. I have had a gringo and an English gal in there during the last year and it worked really well for me and for them. No co-signers required! I was moving back into it, but let's talk very soon if you are still looking.

Here's a link with a pic: http://www.muyamable.com/view.php?anu_id=3647
My email is c2luke at yahoo.com

Sorry if I missed something in this thread, but I stopped reading it after several posts... it just got too long.

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jonas says on Feb 20, 2008, 18:01:

c2 there seems to be a tipo in your ad, it says 2,5 mio / month and 150k / week. You might want to correct that. cheers

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

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dbldareu says on Mar 3, 2008, 11:27:

Here's how I found a three bedroom three bathroom truly sweet apartment with hardwood floors/beautifully furnished in Rosales -- for $450 U.S. You heard right...

I walked every street in the neighborhood I wanted to live in. Knocked on the door of every nice building. Explained in my broken Spanish what I was looking for to the doormen. Asked them if they knew any owners who live overseas or might be interested in renting out their place for a reasonable/local rate.

Offered the doormen $300 cash if they came up with the right place for the right price.

I did that three times. In one week, I had two phone calls, and got three numbers from doormen to apartments that were never listed on the market. Ended up renting the sweetest place from a Colombian Girl who bought the apartment as an investment and lives in L.A. She never rented it before. After i met with her aunt, and got her approval, it was a greenlight.

will be renting the same place when i return this summer.

This way always works -- everywhere in the world.

DD

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tomtom33 says on Mar 3, 2008, 12:19:

Very good idea. But that US$300 was way too high. Next time try 50 or 100K.

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jonas says on Mar 3, 2008, 17:50:

mpayne, so have you found anything adequate for you? What´s the end to the story?

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

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mpayne101 says on Mar 3, 2008, 19:59:

UPDATE!!!

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. I wish I would have known about c2's place before I signed a 1 year here.

Well, I ended up moving to an apartment that the "Travelers" hotel group owns. It's not inside of a hotel, and it's a nice 2 bedroom located in "la carolina" in front of Unicentro. I really like the area. It includes all services including daily maid service, water, gas, lights, agua de botellon, fully furnished (and i do mean FULLY down to the sandwich grill and gas BBQ with accessories), huge private terraze with tables and chairs, and 24 hour security and 2 parkings. The only thing not included is cable and internet which i have already had installed.

It's not huge, about 1200 sq. ft., but its very nicely furnished. They required no deposit, only the first months rent-----which is------$3,300,000.00

A bit more than i wanted to pay, but... here i am. Thanks again for all your help.

MDP

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jonas says on Mar 4, 2008, 08:44:

And how is setting the company up going for you? I am asking because people here usually ask their initial questions on ´how to´ and then you don´t hear anything more about the process. Found a good and reasonably priced accountant? Any questions on that matter?
I think we should have some sort of entrepreneurial threat here...
Best of luck with your venture.

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

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la campiña says on Mar 4, 2008, 20:55:

I've got one somewhere ( story), re paying for water for the app above its in the memory banks on this site

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