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My Experience in Colombia

I am writing this from Quito. After 8 days in Colombia, I decided to cut our planned two week trip short, and, taking furtive action, leave the country. Maybe I was paranoid; maybe it was justified. In any event, this is my story. I am posting it for whatever value it might provide.

When we first arrived in Bogota, I and my 19-year-old daughter were so excited. We were surprised by how beautiful and clean the city is, at least the parts of it we saw. Having traveled in other large Latin American cities, we would not have been surprised by litter and smoke-belching buses. But Bogota was an exception. We thought the city beautiful and the weather perfect.

The auspicious start to our trip continued when we checked into the wonderful Hotel de la Opera in the interesting La Candelaria neighborhood. Our second day, spent visiting the world-class Museo del Oro and Donacion Botero, and buying antiques at amazing prices, was great. We decided to cap off a perfect day with dinner in the Zona Rosa. That’s when we made our first in a series of mistakes.

After dinner, we had the restaurant call a cab for us because we had been warned that it was not safe to hale one off the street. On the way back to the hotel, my daughter, who is fluent in Spanish, struck up a conversation with the driver. Flush with the excitement of a great day in a new country, we mistakenly let our guard down. We told the driver where we planned to visit in Colombia and when. My daughter, when complemented on her Spanish, mentioned the countries where she had studied the language. Soon it became apparent that the driver was asking a lot of detailed personal questions, trying to pin down exactly where we were going and when. Then he asked if we were traveling alone. My daughter, open and forthcoming my nature, responded “yes,” then quickly realized from the driver’s reaction that she had made a mistake. She immediately tried to cover by saying that we were alone just for that night but that her father was waiting for us at the hotel.

I really didn’t think much of it initially. But that night, I awoke feeling fearful that we had told too much. I decided to change our itinerary and also our hotel. Changing our itinerary turned out to be a lucky decision because it meant that we ended up in Villa de Leyva on New Year’s Eve for the celebration, one of the most memorable experiences of my life. But getting there was disconcerting, for reasons I will explain.

After we checked out of the Hotel de la Opera, we moved to a hotel in the Zona Rosa.. On our fourth day, we decided to go to Zipaquira. But how to get there? Traveling by bus was supposedly questionable so we decided to take a taxi. Our driver, Marco, seemed very professional. On the way there and back, he continually pointed out various locations and structures of interest. We felt like he was trying to be a guide as well as a driver, and we appreciated that. When we got back to the hotel, I gave him what I thought was a fair tip and asked for his telephone number so we could use his services again, possibly to go to Villa de Leyva. He mentioned that he had something to do on an unspecified day the following week but that his son also was a good guide who would be available if Marco wasn’t.

The next day, when we finally found a hotel that had space, we did decide to go to Villa de Leyva. We called Marco, who asked if he could bring his 9-year-old daughter along. We said sure. And we didn’t mind that he also brought his wife. I mentioned that I needed to stop at an ATM either in Bogota or when we got to VdL. Marco asked us to wait a minute while he talked to the woman at the desk in the hotel. By the time he returned to drive us to an ATM, my daughter and I had chatted up the wife and daughter, whom we thought were both completely charming. We were anticipating such a great drive to VdL with this family! At that time I never would have guessed that, for me, the trip was going to be wrought with worry and fear about whether this family was what it seemed to be and whether I had made a grave mistake going into the countryside with people who were, after all, total strangers.

Marco drove us to an ATM and said he would stand nearby while I retrieved the cash. I inserted my card and nothing happened. I pushed the cancel button and nothing happened. My card apparently had been eaten. Then a man approached and offered to help. He suggested pushing various buttons while putting in my pin number. Although we tried to be discrete about putting in the pin, he apparently was able to see it. I hadn’t been too concerned that he could see it, however, because at the time, I thought the card had simply been retained by the bank for some reason. So even if he did see the pin number, it wouldn’t matter because he wouldn’t have my card. A couple of hours later, however, I remembered having read, years earlier, about a scam that involved jamming the ATM card slot to retain the card then using a knife to later retrieve it.

When I was not able to retrieve either my card or some cash, Marco’s wife said she would wait by the ATM to see what happened while Marco drove us downtown to report loss of the card at a branch of the bank that supposedly was open. He wasn’t able to find the branch, however, so we went back to the hotel so I could call and report loss of the card. I later learned that, in that period of time, my card had been used first for a balance inquiry and then to make a number of withdrawals until the $500 limit was reached and an automatic stop took effect.

During the drive to VdL, I remembered reading a post online by a man who, while traveling in Colombia, had been drugged and robbed by an old man who had seemed so nice and who had talked about how upset he was by the crime and young hoodlums in Colombia. Was my situation the same sort of thing? Had Marco been involved in the ATM scam? Was his wife involved? Did they use their totally delightful 9-year-old child to get us to trust them? As we neared VdL, Marco talked about coming back to pick us and offered to drive us to Paipa and other locations in the area before going back to Bogota. If Marco’s “son” came to get us, would we be buying a one way ticket to an extended jungle stay in the company of Ingrid Betancourt? Was I just being paranoid? Since the family spoke no English, I talked to my daughter about my concerns and warned her not to eat or drink anything they might offer us, which they did.

When we got to VdL, Marco offered us a cell phone to keep and use while we were there. Was he trying to manipulate our sense of honesty to make sure we would call him to pick us up or was he truly just trying to be helpful? We declined to take it. After group photos, hugs all around, and an exchange of addresses, the family left.

Once my suspicion was aroused, it was hard to turn off. This led to actions that may or may not have been the product of complete paranoia. For example, our second night in VdL was spent at the Mesopotamia, on the outskirts of town. But during the night, I decided not to sleep there because the door to our room had only a flimsy latch that easily could have been opened from the outside and because it seemed to me that two of the young men working there were watching us. Were they watching us because my daughter is cute or was it something else? So we left all our stuff in the room, put the padlock given us on the door, and walked to the Hotel Plaza Mayor where we spent the night. When we returned to the Mesopotamia the next morning, it was apparent from the questions and comments that our absence during the night had been noticed.

After much discussion and indecision about how to get from VdL to Bogota, we decided to hop on a shuttle van to Tunja, where we got a bus back to Bogota. Ironically, it was one of the few times after the ATM fiasco that I felt totally comfortable and relaxed. After we got back to Bogota, I decided it was time for us to leave. We simply stood out too much. And we are too open by nature, a characteristic I don’t regret. Part of the fun of travel is being able to have friendly exchanges that aren’t plagued with doubt about a person’s motives. Scams and theft can, and do, happen anywhere, although this is the first time in 35 years of travel on seven continents that it has happened to me. Even that would not have scared me off. But the possibility of being sold to the FARC, even if remote, was a risk I realized I was unwilling to take.

When we left our hotel, we gave false information about where we were going, walked down the street to a hotel that records taxi numbers and destinations, got to the airport, and flew to Quito.

It’s nice here. My daughter likes Quito better than Bogota, but I don’t. We agree that the people here in Ecuador are friendlier than in Colombia. We regret missing Cartagena this time, but we will get there eventually.

By dspard on Jan 10, 2006, 22:37 in Friendly Talkzone.

Jebediah says on Jan 10, 2006, 23:21:

Interesting........ hmmmmmm....interesting...

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caslug says on Jan 10, 2006, 23:38:

I sorry to hear about your misadventure.. thank you for posting your story, it fortunate that all that happen was you lost $500USD. Where was the ATM at? Was it in a mall or bank or was it somewhere seclude? I'm sure you know now, but always use and ATM that is in a BANK or area that has tons of folks using it(ie, inside the malls or casinos). Sounds like the Taxi driver drove you to and ATM he had prearranged.

You were right to be concern about strangers(taxi drivers) asking detailed/personal questions. There's no reason for strangers to ask those questions. That happen to me in BOG last year also, i was waiting for a taxi and a guy off the street started asking(in english) where i was staying, i told him in the north, he asked WHAT hotel? i thought it was odd he would want to know my hotel name. So i said i didn't remember and walked away.

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morphus says on Jan 10, 2006, 23:46:

If you liked Bogota, you will probably like other parts of Colombia better. I think Bogota sucks. Try Medellin and Cartagena next time.

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juanalejo says on Jan 11, 2006, 03:30:

For the next time. For the next time, ATMs in Colombia do not swallow your card, you simply put it in and pull it out, then you continue with pin number etc. If at any point your card is swallowed then you should never put your pin number. Cancel everything and call the bank.

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Albatross says on Jan 11, 2006, 04:15:

Bad move Never give a cabbie (or any stranger) the name of your hotel. Tell them you don't remember or its difficult to pronounce, tell them its the big one in the center of the city or just tell them you don't tell anyone the name or that its none of their at #% business. Sometimes I'll just give them the name of a different hotel, its the easiest way out.

Also, why risk taking your teenage daughter to Colombia ?

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Lucia Rojas says on Jan 11, 2006, 05:17:

You did everything that people here had said not to do. Befriending an unknown taxi driver
you are crazy, Sorry, but really, everyone here must have said not to trust cab drivers....
sorry you had problems,
Ecuador is nothing like Colombia. No similarities there. You will have to come back one day.

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elmodefoque says on Jan 11, 2006, 05:46:

dspart, I’m gonna stop in Bogotá in a couple weeks, give me that guy’s number, I want him to do the same shit to me. I’ll pretend that I’m a tourist from India, I look just like those modefoques, cuz if he knows I’m from Barranquilla, foggeitabbouit they know that won’t work on me.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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elmodefoque says on Jan 11, 2006, 06:02:

they gonna need 20 of those little cachaco modefoques to get me off of him.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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Crazy4Cali says on Jan 11, 2006, 06:03:

Advice WRT "Never give a cabbie (or any stranger) the name of your hotel."

Then how do you get them to take you back to it?

I don't know, reading the original poster's account gives me the impression that the original poster is basically paranoid and always fears for (if not attracts) the worst.

If the O.P. was so afraid of being "taken" by strangers, why did they keep taking the advice of strangers only to then have the worry and uncertainty of that decision ruin the trip? As they said in the original post: "Once my suspicion was aroused, it was hard to turn off."

Seriously, aside from having the ATM card get eaten (which could have happened to anyone) what actually went wrong? The original account lists all sorts of things tha could have happened but seemed to be the product of excessive worry and imagination than any actual conspiracy.

For as much as I like going to Colombia, I think some place more touristy like Costa Rica would have been a better idea for this poster and to stick to an arranged tour where you don't have to constantly assess the safety and security all the time.

I hope they are able to enjoy the rest of their trip.

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litost says on Jan 11, 2006, 06:10:

Two obviously foreign women, befriending a complete stranger when they've just been in Colombia for a couple of days... I agree with Lucia, this goes under the common sense no-nos when travelling to places such as Colombia. Stopping at an ATM with the guy and other strangers, that's an extra risk which could've easily been avoided.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience dspard and hope you'll go back to Colombia someday, there's still a lot more to see. Yes these types of things can happen in Colombia, but the chances of becoming a victim can be greatly reduced by learning the lessons of this post. However, besides the ATM scam I think the other things you worried about were paranoia getting the best of you, though understandable in your situation.

I also think that for travel between cities, heck even in the city itself, there's nothing safer than a bus. Only trust taxi drivers recommended by a colombian friend or by a serious hotel, company, etc., and even then you should take high precaution.

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elmodefoque says on Jan 11, 2006, 06:12:

gib, Indian and Pakistanis all think I’m one of them, I even had this one guy say something derogatory behind my back about Arabs. It happened a couple days after they knock down the twin towers. That modefoque thought I was Arab and I had to set him straight. Let me tell you I was never so happy to be from Colombian than that day, the train was crowded and I think if I did not make it clear that I was not Arab but just a spic, I’ll be one dead modefoque.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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Albatross says on Jan 11, 2006, 06:15:

Crazy I give them an address or landmark nearby and walk the last block or so.

Granted, nothing is foolproof, and Tourists are always at a disadvantage. Nobody can anticipate every possible scam at every moment.

The only question is when, where and how much will you lose.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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webmanco says on Jan 11, 2006, 06:23:

Thanks for visiting Dspard

Sorry to hear about leaving Colombia earlier than expected. It is a shame because you could had meet many people to trust, even cab drivers.

GIB no one is saying Colombia is not dangerous, what it has been said is that if it rains in Colombia in other countries is not much different, as experienced by some relatives of mine in Roma, Italy, who got over friendly with a local and got scammed. And I heard the same things happening in different countries.

Warn people that Colombia is a dangerous place and they will be prepare

All the world is dangerous, I could post links to news resembling dangerous situations in different countries, but I prefer not to do it.

There is a wise saying, IF YOU DON´T HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT OTHER PERSONS (ie) COUNTRIES, DON´T DO IT.

And I DO as well beleive is part of being educated, and respectful.

Also, why risk taking your teenage daughter to Colombia ?

Also, why risk taking your teenage daughter on a plane?
Also, why risk taking your teenage daughter on a taxi?
Also, why risk taking your teenage daughter out bed?

Sorry Albatros but if Traveling to Colombia is taking a risk then I will happily do it many times, and if I belive is worth traveling to Colombia so it should be worth doing so with my love ones

COLOMBIA

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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dspard says on Jan 11, 2006, 06:30:

I appreciate the comments Let me say first that I tried to do as much research about Colombia as I could before I decided to go there. I read quite a bit of this site, and I don't recall any warning about taxi drivers other than to use them at night rather than walk.

The ATM was on a busy road in the Zona Rosa and it was not a bank name I recognized. A few days before, I had used an ATM in the mall. That ATM also was one where your card is taken into the slot and then returned after the transaction. An ATM we used in Villa de Leyva had a slide-down reader so the card never leaves your hand.

As for taking my daughter to Colombia, it was more the case of her taking me or, rather, me going with her so she wouldn't go alone. I actually now think she would have been better off without me because her Spanish is accent free (I know only a little Spanish), she would have been staying in backpacker hostals rather than in hotels, taking buses rather than taxis to places like Zipaquira and Villa de Leyva, and if her debit card had been stolen, it would not have shown the balance that mine did.

She was the one who suggested going to Colombia in the first place. She was in Central America last summer and kept hearing about how great Colombia is. Also, I had read about the dramatic decrease in crime and kidnapping. We love to travel and liked the idea of going to a country that had not yet been overrun with foreign tourists and American fast food restaurants. I also liked the idea of supporting Uribe's efforts.

We are experienced travelers and, before arriving in Colombia, had thought about the importance of not trusting anyone and of being on guard. Also, I don't dress or look like someone who has money. But I discovered that, if you are of a basically open and trusting nature, as we are, and you're having a great time, it's very easy to forget. And, Marco and his family were totally charming. We really liked them, especially their 9-year-old daughter, who was curious, lively, and delightful. Even now it's hard for me to think that it may all have been a set-up. But the more I think about it, the more I think that at least Marco must have been involved.

I think it is a shame about Colombia. What we saw of the country, which was just Bogota and the area between there and VdL, was impressive. I really would have liked to go to the Zona Cafetera, as we had planned. Traveling in Colombia may be fine for some people now, maybe even for most people, but as I mentioned before, my daughter and I together just stood out. What I wonder about is whether we were just the victims of an ATM scam or whether something more sinister was in the offing. It's true I might just have been paranoid (my daughter may be thinking that) but I just was not willing to take a chance on being wrong about whether I was or not.

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kernow62 says on Jan 11, 2006, 07:00:

Yes, the train ride was a highlight of my trip to the area, very enjoyable. The sister to the train we rode on is still running up in the Yukon territory of Canada.

On another topic, it would seem to me that someone was trying to be evasive if they said they forgot the name of their hotel, perhaps making themselves more of a target. Just pick the name of another hotel and give that out if one must be so cautious.

I am curious do folks tell a cab driver a nearby hotel when getting a ride from the airport and then drag their luggage into the lobby until the taxi leaves? Do they then have to walk down the street to their real hotel dragging their luggage? Surely this would not draw undue attention to oneself.

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dspard says on Jan 11, 2006, 07:12:

GIB Was there something posted on this website about that scam? I remember reading a thread about common scams in Colombia but I don't recall that the paperclip/ATM scam was mentioned.

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toneloc24 says on Jan 11, 2006, 07:59:

Sorry to hear about your experience in Colombia I hope that you don't think the whole country or the people are all like that. You had every right to be paranoid. However, you just had a bad experience with some conniving folks. A good buddy of mine (experienced traveler) recently let his guard down, got "kidnapped" and taken on a millionaire run of ATMs in Peru, corrupt police involved as well. So it could've been worse.

Since you are open-minded and curious, and apparently the friendly sort, I suggest if you return to Colombia, contact some of the local residents on this board to assist you through your travels. Or travel with a Colombian friend, who will be able to limit the exposure you will face due to the "papaya rule" that is tolerated throughout the country.

The papaya rule needs to be chastised loudly by Colombians, as opposed to just tolerating it. Until then, Colombians shouldn't expect 100% glowing tourist reviews, whether in Bogota or Cartagena (home of the incessant beach touts and taxi ripoffs). Can't have it both ways. Kinda sucks when just being friendly can put you in a precarious mindstate and position.

Colombia is a wonderful place to visit, and I will be returning this weekend. Unfortunately, you can't let your guard down, even for a minute. YOU make the decisions, not the taxistas. No dar papaya, sometimes even friendly conversation with strangers.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

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elmodefoque says on Jan 11, 2006, 08:04:

hey tone, make sure you're in curramba for carnaval. let's get a pbh meeting going in Mariamulata.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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vladimiro says on Jan 11, 2006, 08:17:

Scared away by un rolo conchudo If the taxi drivers in Bogota scared you then you would have been terrified to death of the costenos in Cartegena:) They are far more aggressive in thier attempts to get money from turists than the Bogota taxi drivers. Some may be persistant and creative in thier attempts to make money off you, but it doesn't mean they are going to kidnap or rob you; they are usually just trying to make some money. The taxi drivers in Medellin are much friendlier and honest than those in Bogota, or Cartegena in my opinion. I often have interesting conversations with them.

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Albatross says on Jan 11, 2006, 08:25:

Sorry Webman... I don't have children, but If I did, I'm sure I would think twice about taking them to the country with the highest kidnapping rate in the world, especially a daughter. (OK, call me protective)

To compare the safety of travel to Colombia (other than packaged-tours to Cartegena)to getting out of bed or air travel is naive to say the least. (of course, I'm sure you profit from Colombian tourism, so I can see why you deny the danger)

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Wastelandlive says on Jan 11, 2006, 08:49:

Well at least you trusted your instincts. You got off lightly. The ATM scam was cheap, and no violence or humiliation was involved.

The guy eyeballing you for your itinerary... wow. Do you understand how the hostage resale business works in Colombia?

You likely met a bad dude. I don't mean a card carrying member of the FARC, or even a kidnapper... just somebody who has a cousin who knows somebody. A rich gringo with her young daughter - that's quite a tasty treat. Kidnap you both. Seperate you... they've got you right on site to negotiate.

Tell me... if it was her life on the line, how much could you wire transfer to Colombia on short notice? How about long notice?

On second thought, don't tell me. And cultivate a new instinct: making friends is great, that's why we travel. But you don't need the cab driver to be your friend. He takes you from A to B, and if he's inviting along friends and family... then he's not working anymore. Not work as you think of it, anyways.

Chitchat. Pay the fare. Adios. These guys aren't there to enrich your life.

Great instincts. Changing plans, shifting accomodations. Good stuff. Build on that. You rarely know when you've prevented a disaster... usually only when you've failed.

Sorry you met the dregs. Don't let it turn you off to Colombia.

Wasteland

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Daniel1 says on Jan 11, 2006, 10:34:

Not all taxi drivers are crooks. Wastelindlive said it best. taxi drivers take you from point a to b. Some though just are trying to be cordial and maybe pracitce a little english. But it dosen't mean you have to be best friends with them. When drivers ask me about how long I am staying, and who I am with etc. just do what we are all not use to doing.....LIE. It is called misinformation...never tell them what you are actually doing, how long you are staying etc.
Be cautious, but don't let paranoia stop you from enjoying yourself.
Also, If an ATM eats your card, never, ever, ever, enter your pin # or tell it to anyone, even bank officials. That goes anywhere in the world, even in the USA & Canada.

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miamimike says on Jan 11, 2006, 10:43:

Dsperd, sorry to hear of your misfortune You had a look at the wrong types of many people that represent Col.
******We decided to cap off a perfect day with dinner in the Zona Rosa*******. That’s when we made our first in a series of mistakes. Yep, seems like that may have been your first mistake. These Con Atrists know many Americans/Foreigners frequent this area and they like to follow the Money Trail. Many Scams are pulled in this area but never make it into the News. Bad for tourism.
Only when they have a massive bombing like they did maybe 3 years back in the Zona Rosa does this area ever get portrayed in a bad light. Myself, its the last place I would frequent as the reason I went on Vacation in the first place was to experience a change from the USA so why even leave the USA if I'm going to an area to associate with more Americans? Doesn't make sense.

Juanangelo, FYI,-Legitimate ATMs do "swallow" Cards! a Bank of America ATM swallowed mine a few years back due a damaged magnetic tape strip.The manager that day told me it happens frequently here.

On Sept 17, 2008: Senator John McCain said, as he had many times before, that he believed the fundamentals of the economy were "strong."Hours later he backpedaled, explaining that he had meant that American workers were Strong.

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tomtom33 says on Jan 11, 2006, 10:46:

Vlad The CTG taxistas are in a class by themselves, but the guys in MDE aren't much better. Even with my Paisa novia in the car, they manage to find the long way and rack up an extra 1 or 2 or more K.

I once had a CTG guy tell me, with a straight face, about an extra mil for Sundays. I just told him that I lived here. Gave him the correct fare and walked.

That stuff about giving the taxista a different address or hotel name sounds screwy to me. If you are that concerned, stay home and never leave your bedroom.

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Crazy4Cali says on Jan 11, 2006, 10:47:

Calling a taxi WRT: "we had the restaurant call a cab for us because we had been warned that it was not safe to hale [sic] one off the street"

Now that I think back, in my travels to places "south of the border" my most "interesting" experiences have been in taxis called by a restaurant. Taxis called from hotels have been less troublesome and those "off the street" have been the least.

The ones called by the restaurant have, almost without exception, been someone's friend or relative and rarely a "real" taxi. I guess I've been lucky.

For people reading these chronicles and trying to plan their trip. My $.02 is Colombia is not a good place to go wandering around uninformed unless you're prepared for an adventure (of potentially indefinite duration). It's a good place to go if you have a local connection (e.g. family, established tour agency, etc.) because they can guide you around and away from trouble. If you're used to having your "radar" going and know how to ask the locals for advice (and how to filter and integrate that advice) then you'll do OK (e.g. like a backpacker) If you're looking for "disneyland" then go to Florida or SoCal. (Not that those places are any safer, just that's where you'll find Disneyland :)

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elmodefoque says on Jan 11, 2006, 11:04:

As a Colombian, the best advice I could give gringo tourists is to ALWAYS remember, I repeat, ALWAYS remember that Colombia is NOT like going to Costa Rica, Ecuador, Guatemala etc. you‘re not gonna get many of those peasant bowing their heads at the sight of you. You’re not gonna get too many happy campesinos to pose for you next to their burro. I know one thing, if I saw a tourist take a picture of me on my burro, I’ll take that damn camera a bust it over their head. Believe it or not, a lotta Colombians see you as their equal and if you treat them that way, you’ll be just fine. Always remember that they could be as canny or as sophisticated at ripping you off as anywhere in the first world. If you need places where they jump to serve you or bow their heads, go to Ecuador or Machu Picchu.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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anaintheus says on Jan 11, 2006, 13:38:

dspard I'm sorry to hear all this, but I also think the paranoia made it worse.. and that if you were going to be paranoid, you should have been since the beggining. I just went to Bogota with 2 American friends who don't speak any Spanish and the most latin place they had been was Cancun ;) (They do travel a lot to other places, though) They had a great time and we travelled quite a bit by car(Bogota, Zipaquira, Villa de Leyva, Raquira, Socorro, San gil, Barichara, Paipa, Tunja), they came back home and are showing pics and telling the best stories about Colombia, I really think the difference was in having someone to show you around, having a car, knowing where to go, basically having a local person show you around, Colombia is not really the best place for Tourists if you don't speak Spanish and if you are paranoid. You should try going back, but this time with friends, and you will see the biggest difference!
All the best

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ws244 says on Jan 11, 2006, 15:17:

Hotel de la opera is nice Hotel de la opera is a very nice hotel, very safe, secure, and not cheap. Many Colombian congressmen stay there while in session. I was visiting for coffee there one night 2 weeks ago, and this story for this class of hotel, ie la Fontana, Radisson etc does not make sense. To move to another hotel is ridiculous. Maybe for one staying in a cheap hotel it might be prudent to move with this issue. I guess after 5 years with an apartment in Bogota and many times there, i need to now consider having a yellow cab take me a block from my apartment so the driver does not know where i live. I do not even speak spanish. Zona Rosa has some very good restaurants and they do not call their taxi driver buddies. Bogota is no different than any other large city in the world.

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juanalejo says on Jan 11, 2006, 16:53:

This happens when people are warned that Colombia is the most dangerous place on earth and then they land here and realize it is not. At that point and as dspard said, they immediatelly let their guard down and dismissed ALL warnings. There you have trouble. Then you become paranoid, because now you believe ALL warnings. Selling to FARC, GIB you are so full of it, you would be long gone making company to Ingrid, if all your warnings were 10% true. 1 million tourists in 2005, much better but not good enough. There could be millions more improving the livelihood of many poor Colombians if it were not because of the war hero warnings by many on this site. Colombia´s reputation is getting better by word of mouth, unfortunately sites like this do nothing to improve the situation.

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dspard says on Jan 11, 2006, 18:10:

Thanks, everyone for taking the time to read my story and for sharing your thoughts, opinions, and condolences for a less than perfect experience. Also please know that I would never judge an entire country by negative encounters with one or even many individuals.

As for those of you who may want to find fault or assess blame, there’s really no need for that. My experience in Colombia simply is what it was. Good things happened -- in fact, great things happened – along with some disconcerting experiences that may or may not have been a product of paranoia. But, as Wastelandlive so brilliantly observed, “[y]ou rarely know when you’ve prevented disaster. . . usually only when you’ve failed.” As for the ATM scam, I now consider that to have been a lucky break that made me suspicious of Marco and his family. Without that, I likely would have trusted him longer, perhaps to my serious detriment. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that, had we asked him to come get us in VdL, he would have sent his “son” who then would have delivered us to kidnappers for ransom.

When I was deciding whether to go to Colombia, I had read on this site more than once that paranoia in Colombia is a good thing. I also knew some things about how kidnappings happen – that “freelancers” may take you and try to show the FARC that you are worth the effort. I’d also read that people sympathetic to the FARC might be working anywhere. What surprised me was how quickly we got into trouble. My daughter and I had talked specifically about not revealing certain personal information that would say “money.” We had talked about not revealing our itinerary and about staying in the Platypus, which I would have done if we could have had a room with a private bath. We took only day packs with us so as not to be encumbered by luggage. She and I have had fabulous experiences traveling independently in other global hot spots, such as the Middle East. Colombia turned out to be very different, though, and I’m glad I realized when I did that I was way in over my head there.

A couple of observations have been made with which I totally agree. The first observation is that if you are going to Colombia, it is a good idea to know someone or to hook up with a tour. From our first moments in Colombia, going through passport control, we stood out as unusual. The man checking our passports asked us point blank “Why are you here?” He wanted to know if we had friends or knew anyone. When my daughter said “no,” then made a joke and said “you,” he was disarmed and laughed. But it came up again and again and we soon learned to lie every time. It is quite apparent that only people who have a reason to go to Colombia do so; it is not a tourist destination. We knew that, and that, in part, is why we wanted to go. That’s what made New Year’s Eve in VdL such an incredible experience. In Bogota, we also called all the local tour agencies listed in the Lonely Planet guide book to see about getting on with a tour but because of the time of year, they were not operating. Apparently, half of Bogota goes elsewhere after Christmas.

The second observation I agree with is that we did have a BIG target painted on us because two women traveling independently apparently just don’t go to Colombia to see the country, unless they are young backpackers. We are not silly, naive, overly friendly “tourists,” but we are open and basically honest people who like the cultural exchange that comes from talking to other people in different countries about their lives and our lives. Take that away, and for us, much of the enjoyment of foreign travel goes away, too. In all of our travels, lying was never necessary, except once or twice in Alcaida hot spots when we thought it the more prudent course of action to say we were from Canada rather than the U.S.

As for us “befriending” a cab driver, it really didn’t happen that way. The first cab driver who asked all the questions clearly was bad news. What made us trust Marco was that, during the entire trip to and from Zipaquira, he asked only one question – if we were from Europe. Even that we did not answer, asking him to guess where we were from. But he didn’t want to guess and went back to his narration of the landmarks and sights along the way. Because he seemed so professional, we thought it would be better to have him drive us to Vdl than someone else. When we called, he asked if he could bring his daughter, and when he arrived, his wife was in the car, too. This did not seem sinister because it was, after all, New Year’s Eve and they may have seen it as an opportunity to go to VdL, which they said they had never seen before.

What I think is this: According to the Lonely Planet guidebook, which is a couple of years outdated, guerrilla groups control 40 percent of Colombia. There may be as many as 30,000 people who are FARC, ELN or paramilitary. Those are astounding numbers. I can’t think of any other country where “outlaws” have such power (except of course the current thugs who have control of the White House). All those guerrillas know someone who knows someone, etc. Although it’s difficult to get solid information about how prevalent kidnapping is in Colombia now, I have read and heard enough to believe that it is still not all that rare for someone who does not blend in and is perceived as a potential paycheck

To those of you who say I was savvy and did the right thing by leaving, thanks. But I’m soooo glad I didn’t miss the chance to experience New Year’s Eve in VdL. Has anyone else done that? I truly hope to be able to go back to Colombia one day to spend money that can be used to improve the lives of the poor. But I won’t go back until I can travel without fear about my safety if I slip up and tell the truth about who I am and what I’ve done.

Oh, and what is the papaya rule?

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tomtom33 says on Jan 11, 2006, 19:29:

If you leave your papaya out, a (fill in the blank) is obligated to try to steal it.

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Wastelandlive says on Jan 12, 2006, 05:54:

Echo GIB... How many times have I had this conversation? It's called RESPONSIBILITY. Civic virtue. Call it what you will.

Juan, to even hint that the reason Colombia doesn't enjoy a greater tourist industry is NOT because of her very real security problems, but rather because of a tiny group of people sharing their experiences on an internet forum is beyond the pale.

It's just rediculous... can you see that?

Consider the author of this thread: she saw what she saw. How convincing do you think your argument is?

How about the neutral reader? Is he going to listen to Americans who live in and travel to Colombia, or some infantile, nationalistic rant about how bad things happen everywhere, and everybody should stop being so mean to Colombia?

Wasteland

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ElPadrino1 says on Jan 12, 2006, 09:54:

Juanalejo, since you are a Colombian please enlighten us. I beleive its a law in Colombia that all Colombian Males join and serve in Military when they reach 18 years of age. My Question, did you serve or as a privleged Colombian, buy your way out of Col Military Service and send a pobrecito from some Barrio Abajo to serve in your place?

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el norteño says on Jan 12, 2006, 16:37:

atm Dspard,

Why did you enter your pin with a stranger standing over your shoulder? Would you have done that back home?
Honestly, some people shouldn't travel.

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ElPadrino1 says on Jan 12, 2006, 17:05:

EL Noteno you may be surprised at how many prople I see not protecting thier password. Its a common practice here and you would be surprised at how easy it is to get someone's password at a ATM. We probably all, at one time or another, are guilty of the same thing. I guess we all shouldn't travel.....:(

ps-these ATM thieves are clever!

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dspard says on Jan 12, 2006, 17:29:

El Norteno -- We were trying to protect the password from being seen but, actually, I wasn't as concerned about it being seen as I should have been because I thought the bank had taken my card, perhaps because it found the transactions questionable or for some other reason. Thus, I thought that, even if my password had been seen, it would do the man no good because he couldn't use the password if he didn't have the card. I thought the bank had the card. It did not occur to me at that time that someone would be able to pull the card from the slot.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, over the past 35 years, I have travelled extensively on all seven continents and this is the first time I have ever been scammed.

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dspard says on Jan 12, 2006, 17:51:

El Padrino, you are right about thieves being clever. I would even say that some of them are brilliant in their ability to use psychology and manipulation to put their victims in a vulnerable position.

My taxi driver Marco, for example, may well have brought his daughter and wife along on the trip to VdL to get us to totally trust him. By offering us a cell phone while we were in VdL and he was in Bogota, he was trying to play on our sense of honesty to make us feel obligated to call him to return his phone. I now even think that not asking us any personal questions on the way to and from Zipaquira was an intentional manipulation to appear professional so we would trust him.

Such thieves are patient, authoritative, and predatory. After my card was eaten, Marco's offer to drive me downtown to a branch of the bank that supposedly was open (which he then couldn't find) was just a delay tactic so his associates could get as much money as they could out of my account before I cancelled the card.

I tell you, having a young child present really brings out the maternal and paternal instincts and makes unsuspecting victims more vulnerable to crime. It's a despicable tactic. People who hear about such crimes should be denigrating the criminal, not the crime victim.

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dspard says on Jan 12, 2006, 17:51:

And why would they go to such extremes? I doubt it was just to get $500 out of my bank account. Rather, as others on this thread have pointed out, we represented big money as the criminals knew I would have paid any sum for my daughter's freedom were she taken.

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bufalo says on Jan 12, 2006, 20:10:

sorry about your experience. this is really a lot of posting so I´ll just toss out some random thoughts.

bogota was beautiful, clean and perfect weather? really good for you, I find it congested, the weather sucks, altitude gives me a headache and it's quite unclean. although I do go when I can because I spent some really good times there.

Your daughter is 19, complimented on her spanish ( so as to say she doesn`t LOOK like someone who would speak spanish) talks about her personal life with a cab driver. do you think she stands out? I'd say so. the guys in the cafe, simply checking her out.

you say she speaks perfectspanish, not trying to be sarcastic, but if you don`t speak it, how do you know she speaks it "perfectly". you also said she is accent free, I highly doubt that - first time in Colombia, how would she have a colombian accent? she also studied in several countries, each country has different words and sayings for the same thing as well as different pronunciation, trust me she probalby stuck out just by talking. also, studyin in several different countries usually gives people kind of a "mutt" type accent, a mix of all. Many people thought I was from colombia at first because I only visited the same part all the time. then I lived in Uruguay, just try to understand them or argentinians, and then I lived in Barcelona. after moving to colombia once again, people had a hard time understanding me, let alone my accent. I`m getting it back a gain. Have a colombian watch a movie from argentina or uruguay, they probably won´t get a lot of the dialouge.

I´m just glad you travel with your daughter. some people sit on their ass all their life, or go to disneyworld every year. keep doing it. I´m looked at by family and friens back in the states as a loser because I should b e there with a carreer, house, SUV and all the other crap. Instead I live in Armenia with my wife and daughter 2 1/2. Right now we are in Leticia, and I swam in the Amazon with her on my back last sunday. Pirahnas and all tickling my legs, good thing I didn`t have a cut. Point is, I`d rather be doing this, losing sleep over the future, than running to Walmart every week so as not to miss out on the special price of a five-pack of fruit of the loom.

Nothing really bad happened in the long run, that`s what matters. Keep traveling, keep making mistakes, just don`t make them big ones. I'm gong to be scared out of my mind when my daughter is that age, actually I´m scared out of my mind now.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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vladimiro says on Jan 12, 2006, 20:33:

They sound like professionals... I would be concerned if I were you because these people sound like real professionals and there have been a few cases of Colombians pursuing their victims to neighboring countries. The Ecuadoran border is no a barrier for Colombia's criminals. And now they know who you are and that you have a pretty daughter that you'd do anything for.

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dspard says on Jan 12, 2006, 21:18:

Bufalo I was in Bogota for only 6 nights and yes, while we were there, it was perfect weather. Also, I think I mentioned that the population was much reduced because, we were told, thousands of Bogota residents go elsewhere after Christmas. And the part of Bogota we saw -- admittedly only a small part-- was clean, clear, and beautiful.

I should not have said my daughter speaks perfect Spanish. What I should have said is that everywhere we went, people complimented her on how good her Spanish is. And a number of people told her she does not have an accent, which I took to mean she does not have a North American accent. She has received this kind of compliment in many different Spanish speaking countries so either people are just being polite and nice or she has an ability to quickly hear the local accent and adopt it. No one had any trouble understanding her. Also, I don't think I said she talked about her personal life with a cab driver. I think I said she talked about where we planned to visit in Colombia with a cab driver. We have done this same thing in dozens of countries and only in Colombia was it a risky move.

I know you've heard this dozens of times, but savor every moment with your little one. In the blink of an eye, she will be an adult.

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dspard says on Jan 12, 2006, 21:18:

Bufalo I was in Bogota for only 6 nights and yes, while we were there, it was perfect weather. Also, I think I mentioned that the population was much reduced because, we were told, thousands of Bogota residents go elsewhere after Christmas. And the part of Bogota we saw -- admittedly only a small part-- was clean, clear, and beautiful.

I should not have said my daughter speaks perfect Spanish. What I should have said is that everywhere we went, people complimented her on how good her Spanish is. And a number of people told her she does not have an accent, which I took to mean she does not have a North American accent. She has received this kind of compliment in many different Spanish speaking countries so either people are just being polite and nice or she has an ability to quickly hear the local accent and adopt it. No one had any trouble understanding her. Also, I don't think I said she talked about her personal life with a cab driver. I think I said she talked to the driver about where we planned to visit in Colombia. We have done this same thing in dozens of countries and only in Colombia was it a risky move.

I know you've heard this dozens of times, but savor every moment with your little one. In the blink of an eye, she will be an adult.

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dspard says on Jan 12, 2006, 21:24:

Vladimiro I'm not worried; I'm no longer in Ecuador. And it's no secret that almost all parents would do anything for their kids.

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elmodefoque says on Jan 13, 2006, 05:06:

I'll get there, when I get there!

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vladimiro says on Jan 13, 2006, 08:23:

dspard, I was just kidding....

I remember my first trip to Colombia...there was a heavy military presence due to the Copa America soccer tournament. When I arrived the driver put me in a hotel near the airport outside Medellin instead of driving the 45min. through the mountains into Medellin. He said for "security reasons" he could not drive me to Medellin that night.

At the entrence to the hotel, guys with machine guns checked our car for bombs, there was a large contingent of military and armored vehicles outside the hotel, there was a guy with machine gun patrolling each floor of the hotel because some soccer teams from other countreis were staying there. I thought I was in great danger.

It turns out that the driver was lying. The hotel in Medellin simply did not have any rooms that night so he put me in the hotel by the airport. It was perfectly safe to drive to Medellin from Rio Negro Airport. Later I would over-dramatise my experience in Colombia when telling the story to my friends and family back home.

I think you are also over-dramatising your experience because it was your first trip to Colombia. Its much more exciting to believe that you were in great danger. It certainly makes for a more interesting story for your friends and family back home, but most of us here at PBH know what Colombia is really like:)

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dspard says on Jan 13, 2006, 08:56:

GIB Yes, everything could be considered normal. And I would not have thought anything was out of line had Marco not taken me to the ATM where I was scammed or had he alerted me to what was going on. If everyone in Colombia knows about that scam, then certainly taxi drivers know that scam. So if he was in on that, what else might he have been in on? Maybe only that; maybe not. I will take chances on lots of things but kidnapping is not something I wanted to chance. I did remember reading on line the story of a traveler in Colombia who got talking to an old man who seemed so nice and so disturbed by the crime in Colombia, then eventually offered to share his crackers with the traveler. Next thing the traverler knew, he'd been drugged and robbed. Marco's wife offered us some food. Maybe it was just food; maybe it was drugged. I don't know. I don't think anything drastic was going to happen with the child present but what about if we had let Marco come get us and he sent his "son"?

Had I to do it over again, I would have traveled everywhere by bus. Going out of town, even in a safe taxi, is costly and advertises that the person doing that has money. The Libertadore line is very comfortable (I was amused that the movie shown on the bus was about some Americans who got involved with Colombian drug runners) and I felt totally safe on the bus as well as in the long line at the bus station in Tunja. Even though the station was crowded, no one tried to pick our pockets, which contained a decoy wallet. My daughter ended up sitting separately at the back of the bus but she says she really enjoyed her conversation with the other people sitting near her.

It's difficult to know who and what to believe about traveling in Colombia because there are lots of different opinions. Experience is the best guide. But truly, for people who have a reason to go to Colombia, to see family or friends or because they are looking for a mate (and my daughter tells me that the guys in Colombia are the hottest she has seen anywhere!), there is a reason to do what is necessary to travel there. But for someone like me, who is just a traveler/explorer, there are other places in the world to see the same kinds of things Colombia has to offer without all the hassle of having to lie, dissemble, mistrust, and worry about catastrophe. There's always some concern anywhere a person travels, but, in my travel experience, there's a significant degree of difference in Colombia.

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dspard says on Jan 13, 2006, 08:59:

Actually, Vladimiro, my first impulse about responding to your post had been: "Now who's being paranoid?"

I'm not over-dramatising because I have reported events exactly as they happened. But there is a real question about whether I was just being paranoid about the possibility of being kidnapped. That I don't know.

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dspard says on Jan 13, 2006, 09:46:

Kidnapping Although cime and kidnapping clearly are greatly reduced in Colombia in the last few years, I have found it difficult to get information on exactly how great a risk it still is and for whom. According to an American government website, 32 Americans, other than the high profile defense contractors, have been reported kidnapped in the last five years. The Lonely Planet guidebook says that, in the last 10 years, 270 foreigners have been kidnapped and that an estimated 5,000 kidnappings each year go unreported and are dealt with privately. A woman who posted about her travel experience in Colombia on travelblog.org says a Colombian soldier told her that kidnappings are happening all the time. While we were in Bogota, there was a demonstration on the large square in La Candelaria to protest the kidnapping of Colombians. I think the large banner mentioned the number 1,800, but I may be wrong in my memory about that. We were told that this demonstration is held every couple of months. So this is the information I had to go on while I was in Colombia. It certainly does not indicate that kidnapping no longer is something to be concerned about.

I think it would be really helpful if there were a website that reported the exact circumstances of the reported kidnappings and violent crimes against foreigners. There is such a website about such incidents in Guatemala which I found really informative in trip planning to know which areas to avoid and which kind of travelers seem to be victimized. Something like that for Colombia would be very useful.

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litost says on Jan 13, 2006, 16:20:

Well, if foreigners are being kidnapped in Colombia they sure aren't reporting it. The overalk numbers have dropped dramatically, recently I read in El Tiempo that in 2005 the total number of kidnappings in Medellin was 0! The number of kidnapped people is still painfully high, particularly because the guerrillas hold people for years. There's a big crackdown and mobilization against kidnappings, so I think the main worry nowadays is regarding the "paseo millonario" where you're kidnapped for a few hours while your bank accounts are drained and you're robbed. But I think the level of this crime in Colombia is around the average of other big Latin American cities.

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juanalejo says on Jan 13, 2006, 17:05:

dspard I think, you are definitelly not ready to travel to Colombia, and for that matter not most of Latinamerica. What happened unfortunately to you can happen in most countries in Latinamerica, with the big difference that since Hollywood does not make movies about kidnaps in Argentina, then you would not be scared there. We as Colombians are sick of hearing this type of horror stories, specially from people like GIB whose only argument is to disqualify me as a person. How pathetic of him. And also dspard, check the LP site and ask about what people think about Colombia´s LP guide and see their response, those people are real travellers who have actually left the cities to do some real travelling. No wonder the new LP guidebook writer said on a blog that he found a very different and much safer country than what people believed. Of course the "highly" travelled people on this PBH site, totally disqualified the guy as a fool.

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caslug says on Jan 13, 2006, 17:14:

regarding dspard exp, AS a previous poster said, "it is what it is". I dont think she embellish anything, she wrote account of her experience AND how she felt at that time. None of us were there, so we really cant discount her fears. There's a great book about personal security precation called "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin Becker(bodyguard to the stars), he basic advice was, "LISTEN TO YOUR INSTINCT", if you feel fear in a situation get out. What's the worse that could happen by listening to your fear/instinct? Even if it's wrong, all that happend(like dspard situation) is that you left and NOTHING BAD happen. Ignoring your fear is a quick way of getting into more trouble.

And considering one BAD thing(ATM) happend already, who in their right mind would discount your fear(even if it's unfounded) after experiencing what she experienced w/ the ATM scam.

In one week she statistically experienced lots of odd events. example, has ANY OF US that travelled to COL EVER had a taxi driver we ONLY know for couple days, LOAN us HIS CELL PHONE or TAKE his family on a trip WE'RE paying the fare for?

When i tell my COL friends about my gringo friend having safety/security problem in COL, NONE of them try to discount the story,"oh, things weren't THAT BAD!". ALL my COL friends, rolled their eyes, and always said, "your friend SHOULD have been more careful". YET here on the board, some poster try to discount her story.

In pereria i had to go to ATM(at the bank) to get money to pay for the hotel. One hotel guy went with me to show me the bank. This guy was young and very helpful, the night before we went drinking together. Yet, at the ATM he stood RIGHT behind me when i was going to enter my PIN, I told him please step back. He brush off my request with a friendly word and gestured. I DIDNT feel comfortable, so i simply said, no, lets go back to the hotel(i had enough to pay anyway). Maybe his intention were good and i was just being paranoid for brushing him off. Who CARES! it's my safety and money.

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dspard says on Jan 13, 2006, 18:48:

Caslug, I appreciate your post.

Juanalejo, it's too late to warn me not to travel in Latin America as I have traveled extensively, and independently, in South America, Central America, and Mexico. I've also traveled in other poor and/or challenging destinations such as Africa and, recently, the Middle East. As I've mentioned before, this is the first time I've ever been scammed or seriously concerned for my safety, and that includes spending a night in a Bedouin tented camp in the Wadi Rum. In my early 30s, I did almost drown in Peru but that was due to a freak of nature, not criminal conduct. The only other thing I can think of is when a taxi driver in Athens recommended a restaurant that ended up charging us an outrageous amount for a whole fish through a deceptive practice.

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 13, 2006, 20:37:

Juanalejo, my wife hates seeing Colombia dragged through the mud as much as anyone. OTOH, in her apartment complex in Medellin, out of 12 owners, 4 of them have experienced being kidnapped and released. Do you think this is normal?

I think this entire thread corroborates the belief of my wife and her children that tourists have no business going to Colombia unless they are accompanied by a relative or close friend who will watch out for them. No tourist has sufficient experience to know when they are being overly paranoid and when they are not. A local does. I've never had a bad experience in Colombia but that's because I have people looking out for me. Like the time my wife nudged me and told me to get out of the cab - she had a bad feeling that something was going to go down. Of course, I'll be derided on this idiotic site for relying on my wife's 42 years of Colombian experience. Better that than relying on the advice of anonymous morons on the internet!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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jalf12 says on Jan 13, 2006, 21:07:

My Experience in Colombia I just got back to the states Thursday night. I also went to Villa de Leyva on the advice of Lotist (thanks man!) and the suegros watched the kids:). I left my debit card and took only cash as my wife insisted. I wanted the liberty of being able to take out money as needed but in the end the 350 mil pesos was just enough.

I don't know about your features dspard bu I'm a 6ft, light skinned, high cheeked, gringo with long blonde hair. We traveled by bus, from Soacha to the Bogota terminal and then to VDL. I kept my beenie on with my long hair tucked in. When we arrived we asked the tourist police (?) about a camp site. The man sitting with them just happened to be the manager of a camping zone in town. We paid 5 mil/person a night (with my wife and cuñado; 15 mil) in the middle of the town (not 2 minutes walk to the plaza) for a converted parking lot/camp zone with bathroom and shower. It was walled in and the mgr kept it locked for us until we called his cell phone to get in. I felt safe in VDL seeing many foreigners and other gringos.

That afternoon we rented horses and went to "el poso azul", a small lake outside of town that is a beautiful bluish-green. I couldn't resist taking off all but my boxers and diving in for a freezing (but refreshing swim). The next day the mgr took everyone from the campsite to the "periquera" a beautiful waterfall with a pool at the bottom. I was the first one in. Later that day, we rented bikes and went to see a giant dinosaur fossil and an indigenous ruin of rocks that honestly looked like nothing less than large rock carved penises. The next day we went to the natural park "Iguaque" and my spanish was so good they didn't charge me the extra 15 mil - foreigner rate:). A five hour clime through a small, muddy trail got us to the lagoon, where the “Muiscas” believed humanity started. They say if your touch the water it will rain and occasionally people throw rocks in and terrible thunderstorms form. It is a difficult climb and at the end we didn’t care much for the lagoon being as tired as we were, but it was an adventure I’ll never forget.

The whole time we cooked hot dogs and other cheap food on the massive log cabin fires I made (former boy-scout).

All of these activites would have cost us a hundred times what we spent had we done them with the "safe" local tourist guide packages. In the end the only thing I regret is not taking the extra tent for my wife and me (we had to share with her brother), but at least we took a private excursion in the rain forest near the waterfall; hehe.
In all my trips to Colombia I've either been really lucky or stayed safe by traveling like any poor colombian on a budget would.

Viva Colombia!

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miamimike says on Jan 13, 2006, 21:55:

Litost, Kidnappings aren't always reported A Doctor in North Bogota related to me that a friend of hers was sequestered not long ago off the street near a well known Bog Hospital. He was held for around a week and his freedom cost several thousand dollars. He was told by his Captors not to call the Police or say anything to the Authorities or else they would come after his Wife,Children and Parents because they knew where his whole family lives. He also related that this has happened to several other professional Colombians in the recent past that he knew and they didn't report it out of Fear of Retaliation. I would say Violent crime is much higher in Bogota then in other Latin American Cities, maybe San Juan PR or Mexico city being the exceptions.

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jalf12 says on Jan 13, 2006, 22:07:

Kidnappings I remember reading a year or two ago that the country in the western hemisphere closest to Colombia in kidnappings is Mexico which had somewhere around 320/year. Colombia exceeded this number to over 3,000 per year! I also remember hearing however that Colombia is the one country in the world where the US does not follow it's "no negotiation" rule with kidnappers because colombians actually return the kidnapee after they have been payed. Just what I have heard don't hold me too it.

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jalf12 says on Jan 13, 2006, 22:28:

Backup http://www.comebackalive.com/df/kidnapp/goodhand.htm

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dwmte says on Jan 14, 2006, 06:30:

dspard.... i enjoyed your post and am sorry a few losers managed to foil your trip to the country i love.

finding bogota a pit, i avoid it like the plague. not just because the bad guys there are everywhere and unscrupulous, it's just a lousy place.

i first was in bogota in '89 for the election of pres. gaviria...he went to school in my hometown in california. that aside. from the moment i left the airport and drove to my hotel--hilton--where the festivities were held, i knew that i wouldn't enjoy this place. i've travelled and worked all over this planet and in my opinion, it's just one more big ugly city...i say that with as much respect as i can manage to it's decent inhabitants.

shit definitely happens and the use of an open ATM is going to a crime scene, period. after living there for many years--the medellin area--i only use the atms in my bank, bancolombia. any where else is just inviting a problem.

as for taxi drivers, well, you've travelled extensively and by now you should know that a driver is just that, a driver...not family, not friend (albiet friendliness is never unwarranted) just not a person to share your life, plans and activities.

i take serious issue with posters who have faulted you for an excessive or unnecessary 'paranoia'...gimme a break. 'paranoia' makes it sound like a psychological condition. the truth is it's an internal protective mechanism, intuition and we should all pay it good heed. i've been in some of the most precarious circumstances imaginable in colombia (not to mention lagos, beirut, damascus, places in india, etc) and if it weren't for my so called "paranoia" i would not have gotten my aging ass out alive. we have a built in defense/protective mechanism which possesses prescience and serves as our warning radar. don't buy these naysayers attemts to place blame on you...regardless you did or didn't make the right choices in all situations. if you can't trust your own gut, pray tell me, what/who can you trust...a taxi driver? a guy in the street? a cop?

i want to personally envite you and your daughter back to colombia and see what she really has to offer outside of a big dirty, alien city. go to medellin and explore her surrounds and you'll have an experience that has had such a profound experience on others like myself that has caused us to uproot our lives and move there.

after all the areas i've worked and travelled in, colombia is the queen of the world. she is rare, has many problems, great promise and gives, without end of her love and charm. even after her own abuse her so much....she even forgives.

please come back.

dw

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tomtom33 says on Jan 14, 2006, 07:30:

No negotiation. The logic behind this policy has nothing to do with the likelihood of success. If no one ever paid anything, there would never be any kidnappings.

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juanalejo says on Jan 14, 2006, 09:45:

dspard You sure do not sound like the kind of person that has travelled all you have said, or 1st you would not have been so paranoid, 2nd you would not have simply left. But suit yourself, you have been posting for far too many days, so your decision to leave Colombia is still haunting you. For me what ever you believe is fine, I am still around this site just because I love my country and I live a life here far different that most of the sporadic travellers to this country that seem to know all the answers. But if you ask me I tend to think 1 less package gringo here, 1 day closer to paradise. I guess I will follow GIB´s advice and live in my own bubble, and in this bubble no package gringos are allowed. Stay away dangerous country, stay away.

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dspard says on Jan 14, 2006, 09:46:

To DWMTE and JALF12 Dwmte, what a gracious invitation! Thank you.

Jalf12, thanks for that link -- very interesting. And I agree with you -- the way you did it is the way to do Colombia. If my daughter ever emails me our photos, I will post some pictures I took in VdL during the celebration.

The older I get, the more I trust my intuition. I think it served me particularly well in deciding to leave Bogota when I did.

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juanalejo says on Jan 14, 2006, 10:07:

Different people, different experiences. "Lonely Planet: Argentina; China; Nicaragua; Croatia; Mexico; Antarctica; Canada; India; Colombia; Germany. List of destinations recommended for 2006 based on a survey of U.S.-based staffers for the guidebook publishing company."

But I know, it is just Lonely Planet. They are a bunch of loosers who do not know where to travel. I know the PBH forumers know much better.

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litost says on Jan 14, 2006, 10:33:

dwmte, I see the ultra-regionalist paisa mindset has gotten the best of you... I'd like to know the last time you were in Bogota and what you did, because it's hard for me to believe we're talking about the same city. OK, if you compare it to Paris, New York, Rio it may not be such a beautiful city, but come on... Medellin is not exactly the prime of aesthetics either. Pretty much the same setting and proportion of nice neighborhoods for both cities, and I'd even say that with all the development the last 10 years Bogota is looking better than Medellin.

This is from a non-bogotano who used to despise Bogota too.

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juanalejo says on Jan 14, 2006, 10:57:

No. 9, Colombia: “Now is the time to go. Colombia is still well off the gringo trail and you’ll only have to share the swaying wax palms and sweaty salsa clubs with a handful of hardy travellers (and crowds of friendly Colombians). It’s modern, vibrant and one of the best value places in South America.”

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vladimiro says on Jan 14, 2006, 11:00:

The story is missing something. "Were they watching us because my daughter is cute or was it something else? "

"If Marco’s “son” came to get us, would we be buying a one way ticket to an extended jungle stay in the company of Ingrid Betancourt?"

"Marco's wife offered us some food. Maybe it was just food; maybe it was drugged."

Add some suspense music after these sentences and a common case of credit card fraud, which many of us have experienced in the US, becomes the Hollywood version of reality that is so popular in the US.

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caslug says on Jan 14, 2006, 11:26:

If poster here read the other threads.. on gringo exp in COL, they would see LOTS of folks travelling to COL and NOT HAVING PROBLEMS and 3 POSTER that had problems. The people who had GREAT exp in COL(me incl) these past month BY FAR outnumber the people who had problems. BUT when i read about the poster having bad problems i dont belittle their experience. BECAUSE, MAYBE i can gleam a thing or to so I DONT become a victim myself.

Beside, none of the three victims are blaming COL as a country or saying ALL COL are bad people, they're telling their exp like they exp it. We encourage people to post about their travel exp to COL so other can read and pick up info from. I dont see the MOD or rules on this board that said ONLY post exp that are GOOD, PLEASE edit out and bad exp on COL. When i talked with OTHER foriegner in COL that live or travel alot to COL, most of them have stories about bad things that they exp or seen. And ALL of them NEVER post(or heard of) PBH.

Dspard got scammed in BOG,

Caufielf(http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/node/16134) got robbed in HIS apartment, had a friend ROBBED in HER apartment, and a fellow teacher was KILLED on the road all within 5 mos in COL.

Charles(http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/node/16100) Was kidnapped and taken for a ride by taxi thieves in CALI.

Yet NONE of these people are down on COL, they all learn from their exp and hopefully will not let the same thing happen again. As a gringo, i emphatize about situation because many times, I am in the SAME situation, but I made different decision than they did and so nothing happen. I took the door number one they took door number two(and got in trouble). Foreigner STANDOUT in COL(or any foreign country), We CANNOT blend in, we dont dress like locals, and we CERTAINLY DONT SPEAK like locals. AND worse, WE DONT KNOW how to read situation or allow our sense of adventure to cloud our judgement, we do things that LOCALS no better not too. BECAUSE no one told us it might be dangerous to do or we simply didnt listen.

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rocinante says on Jan 14, 2006, 12:03:

the faster deer "...tourists have no business going to Colombia unless they are accompanied by a [Colombian] relative or close friend who will watch out for them. No tourist has sufficient experience to know when they are being overly paranoid and when they are not. A local does" - UC Anyone not comprehending this deserves to be on the losing end of natural selection. I don't mean to be disrespectful to the folks who have been robbed, and I know 'being in the wrong place at the wrong time' is not always something that can be calculated beforehand, but...

Tourists have no business going to Colombia unless they are accompanied by a Colombian relative or close friend who will watch out for them. No tourist has sufficient experience to know when they are being overly paranoid and when they are not. A local does.

Sound familiar? If you're a tourist considering Colombia please be really careful. And don't equate travelling in one country without incident as reason to expect the same elsewhere - regardless of similar precautions taken in both.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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jalf12 says on Jan 14, 2006, 12:59:

Have a Friend I think this rule has worked for me now that you mention it; whenever I'm in Colombia I'm with my wife or someone from her family. Probably the farthest I've gone alone is five blocks to the local dentist. Whoever I'm with is usually warning me what not to do or say and it is annoying but I follow their advice. I'd like to say I know enough about the contry and culture to handle myself alone but probably not. I prefer traveling with someone who knows the area whever I go not just for security but because you get more out of the experience that way. I think if I didn't have family in Colombia I would make some good friends and stick with them. I won't say it is as an absolute but having a local guide is definetely the smart way to go anywhere. I can just imagine the trouble my hot little colombiana would get into in the states without me;)

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dspard says on Jan 14, 2006, 15:11:

Everyone NOW seems to agree that traveling independently in Colombia, without local family or friend contacts, is a bad idea. Based on my experience, I agree with that too, for most people, although backpackers staying in hostels and traveling during the day by bus on routes known to be safe likely would be totally fine. But before I went to Colombia, I posted a thread on this website asking for advice about that very thing -- two women traveling independently in Colombia. I got only positive comments along the lines of go, have a good time, you will be fine.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not blaming anyone for not having said "don't go unless you know someone." I may not have heeded that advice had I received it. But a person coming to this website for information about Colombia, as I did, will see two different camps: those who think the risks in Colombia are no different than anyplace else in the world, and those who think you are likely to be shot dead as soon as you step off the plane.

I chose to heed the more optimistic view of Colombia and see for myself. And what I saw is that, for someone like me, the risks in Colombia ARE, in fact, different from the many other places in the world I have traveled. I saw some things in Colombia I really liked but I also realized that it was not a safe place for something as obviously unusual as an Anglo woman and her teenage daughter traveling alone. I have talked to taxi drivers all over the world about what I planned to see in their country and where I planned to go, and it was never a huge mistake as it was in Colombia. Smart criminals clearly would have seen the potential ransom in us and, in my opinion, did see it.

After my debit card was stolen, the first inquiry made was as to my balance. By a lucky stroke of fortune, just two weeks before my trip, I had transferred most of the money out of that account, not because I was going to Colombia, which I now realize would have been a prudent thing to do, but because my bank had pissed me off over something and I was going to change banks totally. I shudder to think what might have happened had the original amount remained in that account. If someone had been interested in showing the FARC that we were worth kidnapping, they would have had their proof.

I regret that some Colombians who post on this website have taken offense and wrongly think that I am denigrating their country by telling the truth about who I am and what I experienced. I had no agenda in posting my story other than to put it out there for whatever value someone considering traveling to Colombia might find in it. Whether a person wants to reject it or credit it is of no consequence to me.

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juanalejo says on Jan 14, 2006, 15:38:

dspard No not everyone is agreeing, not me nor most of the over 1 million tourists that came to Colombia in 2005. For what I can see they did a scam on you, that is all. The same kind of scams that happen all the way from Mexico to Argentina. The rest is all in your head, nothing else happened to you here. Get over it, stop trying to make up stories that never happened. Go away and have a nice life. This country and its people are tired of hearing stories that never happened. Sorry but bad luck, many people have been robbed around the world, in many wild ways. But linking terrorism to common crime is more than insulting. And by the way paranoia does have consequences, especially for the poor people who could see a better life through tourism. But do not worry, many more will come, year after year, just hope it will never be you.

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 14, 2006, 16:37:

How about a third camp, Dspard? The camp that believes the dangers of Colombia have been sensationalized to a ridiculous degree but who nevertheless believe that it is not a normal tourist destination. I have to laugh at the figure of one million tourists. Do they count expats coming home to visit as tourists? Every time I've gone to Colombia I can count the gringos on one hand in the plane.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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dspard says on Jan 14, 2006, 16:57:

Obviously, Juanalejo, had anything else happened to me, neither you nor anyone else would have heard about it because I wouldn't be here to post.

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tomtom33 says on Jan 14, 2006, 17:44:

UC Up until the last time I flew into CTG, I would have agreed with your assessment. The last trip had a plane full of Gringos. I couldn't believe all the English being spoken. Turns out there was a convention of cut-flower exporters in town that week.

The tourist zone of CTG is really an exception to your rule. I can and do(not often, though) stroll the streets alone at 3:00 am. I hail cabs on the street at all hours. I know many of the Colombians in Laguito, and I think that they all know me.

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dwmte says on Jan 14, 2006, 20:55:

litost... ahhh, i don't know. i just find bogota dull, boring and cold. that includes the personalities of many of the folks i've encountered there. i'm not putting them down. every chicken has it's own roost. after so many years in so damn many places, so many different language, culture, dress and food environments, i just find a certain harmony with a place...or i don't. nothing really personal, there's either that 'chemestry' or there isn't. kinda like a lover. wasn't it gertrude stein that said about oakland california..."...there aint no there, there." well for me, the same applies to bogota. now try and not get me wrong, i'm not a cheer leader for medellin either. it's the surrounds that stole my heart.

back in the late '80s and early '90s when the wild west still prevailed in medellin, it was really exciting...deadly, but romantically irrestible. even with the shootings and every other crazyness that filled my days, there was just something that i couldn't drag myself away from. now, when relative calm prevails and development everywhere prevails, it's dull. there's tourists out and about, and what used to be poblado is something really else.
bad? no, not really; but dull? yes.

now i would be the last person on earth to put medellin or bogota in the same breath with say, paris or london. but who the hell wants to go there after they've been there. in that sense, i do lump them together with bogota. i find no joy going there...there's no cows to milk. if i have to deal with the embassy, then i'm stuck. other than that, i've seen the gold museum...soooooo, what to do? do i want to spend my days being cold, around cold people? nah...i just want to enjoy myself in a warm climate around warm friendly people. for this i choose paisa land. my family living in envigado are just the best. but i don't choose to live with them either. give me up country in the llanos, or maranilla and it's surrounds, or carmen or el retiro. it's quiet, laid back and 'manana', rules.

i can go to gualanday, pass the day with friends, bullshit, eat, drink, get high, hang out, whatever, and NEVE