Mr Chvez and Mr Evo politics and the good Democracy

turnmeon says on Sep 21, 2008, 21:49:

bump

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 22, 2008, 05:44:

Sorry I have to make this public. Jack_jason is not taking my messages and is blocking me. Would somebody who is his friend please convey him the message I've left on his profile?

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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romy says on Sep 22, 2008, 08:59:

I believe Colombia sent a letter of support to Evo Morales...

what's your argument? the point to this thread?

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) says on Sep 22, 2008, 09:18:

No surprise there Desi. This guy ignores anyone that has the audacity to disagree with him. Apparently, I am a farc sympathizer according to old JJ.

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) says on Sep 22, 2008, 09:22:

It's hard to tell what is happening in this video. Who is doing the shooting? Is it a case of the military shooting at unarmed protesters or was there gunfire exchanged on both sides?

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quantum says on Sep 22, 2008, 10:29:

Yeah, its not at all clear, in fact I gave up on it. Its easier to just read the news. And for the record Morales is struggling to keep his country unified. The handful of rich elitists from Santa Cruz and other privilieged zones are trying to sucede from the republic. Dont be surprised if the sparks are flying. Not to justify violence by the military. Its an ugly scene.......

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turnmeon says on Sep 22, 2008, 10:29:

the protestors were peacefully protesting the arriving of more goverment troops to their city and the soldiers that just arrived start shooting at the unarmed civilians, there was no exchange of gunfire, you can clearly see the captain of the army telling the soldiers to stop while all the civilians are running away for their lives.

this is a massacre farc style done by a leftist goverment supported by chavez.

my intention is to let people know what these goverments are doing.

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turnmeon says on Sep 22, 2008, 10:31:

of course the video is not clear, the cameraman was among the victims from the shooting, he start running away for his life as any of us will do

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turnmeon says on Sep 22, 2008, 10:31:

of course the video is not clear, the cameraman was among the victims from the shooting, he start running away for his life as any of us will do

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turnmeon says on Sep 22, 2008, 10:31:

of course the video is not clear, the cameraman was among the victims from the shooting, he start running away for his life as any of us will do

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turnmeon says on Sep 22, 2008, 10:33:

sorry about the spam, idk why my comment was repeated 3 times

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) says on Sep 22, 2008, 10:39:

According to the headline on the video, the troops "retook" the airport with gunfire. That would imply that the protesters had taken over the airport. That doesn't necessarily sound like a peaceful protest. I am not judging the situation, but it doesn't appear to be as cut and dry as you imply.

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romy says on Sep 22, 2008, 10:41:

"I am not judging the situation, but it doesn't appear to be as cut and dry as you imply"
of course not... but mud slinging is fun I guess...

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) says on Sep 22, 2008, 10:44:

How am I slinging mud? I am simply making the point that the situation may not be as clear as the OP makes it out to be. At no point did I insult him or anyone else.

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romy says on Sep 22, 2008, 11:03:

I wasn't implying you... I agree with you, sorry I should write a little bit clearer. turnmeon is slinging mud by posting a video for which he has no clue what the context is and making an attack on "pobrecito and friends"... shrewdly implying that these people agree with 'leftist' massacres. of which argument both premises are false.

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) says on Sep 22, 2008, 11:12:

Sorry brother. I misread your comment.

Even though my opinion of ole pobrecito isn't particularly good, I would never believe that he'd support massacres committed by either leftist or right-wing perpetrators.

I don't necessarily discount the possibility that the situation could well be an example of military abuse. I would not put anything past a politician or government trying to hold on to power, regardless of their political leanings. However, there is simply not enough information that can be gleaned from this video to make an informed judgment. If anyone has any further information about this confrontation, please post it.

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romy says on Sep 22, 2008, 12:05:

Seems like these guys had taken over the airport for about a week and tried to shoot down a plane. But should the military be firing at it's own citizens, no.
I can't really comment further on internal affairs of a country that is fairly distant from mine.
see
http://www.jornadanet.com/Hemeroteca/n.php?a=19219-1&f=20080906
http://culpinak.blogspot.com/2008/09/ff-aa-retoman-el-control-del-aero...
http://www.fmbolivia.com.bo/noticia4245-retoman-con-sangre-el-aeropuer...
http://www.kaosenlared.net/noticia/militares-recuperan-control-aeropue...

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pobrecito says on Sep 22, 2008, 12:55:

You forgot that:

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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el_scouser says on Sep 22, 2008, 13:38:

any Guantanamo pics or videos???

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turnmeon says on Sep 22, 2008, 20:23:

hmmm not even one person said omg i feel bad for these civilians, isnt a civilian rigth the ri to express yourself and to protest? why did they send the army with guns and with the order to kill? why not the SMAD? there was no need to kill civilians, but if you agree with the Bolivian goverment on this one just stay away from my post and you are no better than hittler, and i didnt say that pobrecito support this kind of massacres, but i dislike the fact that he turn around on this one like saying it is ok to kill civilians if they are from the right or the center, now imagine that instead of the Bolivian goverment it was the colombian goverment, does the video become clear to you now? well then you are a hypocrit.

in the other hand romy i have to agree with you when you say that no army should under any circunstances shoot against unharmed civilians

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turnmeon says on Sep 22, 2008, 20:26:

if white(spanish) soldiers shoot against indians protestors then this will be considered a case of racism, but when indian soldiers shoot against white(spanish) that is not racism?
to me this is a racial attack too, thank you for pointing that out pobrecito

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pobrecito says on Sep 23, 2008, 05:38:

"if white(spanish) soldiers shoot against indians protestors then this will be considered a case of racism, but when indian soldiers shoot against white(spanish) that is not racism?
to me this is a racial attack too, thank you for pointing that out pobrecito"

Hum whois the racist here?
White (spanish) ...

This comment stinks.

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) says on Sep 23, 2008, 07:41:

"but if you agree with the Bolivian goverment on this one just stay away from my post and you are no better than hittler"

Nice attitude. If someone disagrees with you, then they are no better than Hitler. Is that really necessary? You should be banned for that kind of crap. I also happen to think that Morales is an imbecile who is no better than any other politician trying to maintain power.However, your comments are way out of line when referring to other members in such a way.

As far as the "civilians". On the surface it does look like a case of military abuse and if so, the guilty soldiers and military or political leaders that ordered this should be punished. However, if the civilians really took the airport by force and were trying to bring down non-military airplanes or were perpetrating other similar acts, they lowered themselves to the level of terrorism. If this is true, then they share some responsibility for the outcome. As I have repeated, more information is needed to determine the full truth. Ideally, Morales should initiate an impartial investigation and punish those responsible. However, he would probably rather just point his finger at the big, bad USA to deflect attention from the problems in his own backyard.

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turnmeon says on Sep 23, 2008, 21:52:

how could those civilians bring a airplane down? rocks? using the video camera? spiting at it?
stop trying to change the information to acomodate it to your side, the fact is they were protesting which is one f the rights of any citizen and the goverment army shot and killed some of the protestors and injured some others adding false false information to make other people believe the soldiers did the right thing by killing civilians is wrong and you know it, stop excusing them, they should be punished as well as the terrorist bolivian goverment.

oh and i should be banned for expresing my oposition to a massacre against unharmed civilians? you have issues, yo need to look for God if you believe on him.

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) says on Sep 24, 2008, 07:55:

I don't object to your opinions about the situation, nor am I necessarily disagreeing with the gravity of what the soldiers appear to have done. However, calling someone "no better than hittler" is way over the top. You should learn to debate without insulting those that disagree with you.

As I stated repeatedly, I don't have a firm position on this particular situation because I don't have all the facts about what happened and neither do you. Even so, I stated "On the surface it does look like a case of military abuse and if so, the guilty soldiers and military or political leaders that ordered this should be punished." I don't see how you can see this as an absolution of the guilt of the military and government. I would simply like to know for sure what happened

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) says on Sep 24, 2008, 07:59:

Ya deje de ser tan pelietas. No habíamos quedado de que iba a ponerse a buscar viejas en vez de perder todo el tiempo en frente de la PC? ;)

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turnmeon says on Sep 27, 2008, 22:02:

CG una cosa no va con la otra

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