More property questions

Gator says on Feb 25, 2008, 20:47:

Please, before you get into REAL TROUBLE, consult a Colombian attorney and a Contador Público. For example the answer to number six is yes and there are a multiplicity of other problems in just that one question.

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

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bickerss says on Feb 25, 2008, 20:49:

Gator - thanks. Will do that; any recommendations on a good attorney?. I am not in real trouble yet - just doing furture planning for if I did start a serious relationsship here.

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elk says on Feb 26, 2008, 02:31:

Colombialawyer who posts here on PBH has written several articles on the subject of family rights and his specialty is family law.

Gator is correct, consult a good attorney and a Contador Público. Wills and family rights here in Colombia are different than in the U.S. or Panama. It can get very complicated.

The attorney will draft the legal documents, but the notary, also an attorney will make the final decision as to the legality of the documents. I've been doing a lot of research on drafting a will as a single person. When children and a wife are involved the process gets very complicated.

Shop around for a good attorney and price. According to the local notary, the standard rate for the attorney service is 10 to 15% of your total assets. They will however negotiate the price.

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elk says on Feb 26, 2008, 02:51:

This was written by Esteban, Lawyer Co, and relates to the Colombian will process.

Buggy: Shop around for a good price, it's something like purchasing a car in the U.S. You can pay the retail price or go for the discount etc.


http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/if-i-am-foreign-person-with-thre...

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scott321 says on Feb 26, 2008, 04:18:

Elk 10%-15% of total assets. As something similar to what Humphrey Bogart said in Casablanca. You have been grossly misinformed.

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robi666 says on Feb 26, 2008, 04:47:

2) If you want to buy in Medellin, I know an agency which can help opening a bank account with your passport and file the correct forms. No cost for you (the cost is in the agency sell service, 3%, that the seller will pay).
Other, you will have no big problems filing money into the seller account. You may be asked to provide some sort of documents from your bank and show the origin of money (i.e. tax declaration).

3) Still a project, not a law.

4) Yes, with some limitations. For example, if you do maintenance or renewing to your property and your property appreciate, that value must be shared into the marriage.

6) The best thing that you can do is to sign with your future wife a "Liquidacion de Sociedad Conyugal", before buying any property. This is a very simple document that you can have prepared in a Notaria, as long as you did not buy any asset after your marriage.
In that case, you have to declare about the property of the asset in the document.
After the "Liquidacion", anything that you'll buy at your name, will be your exclusive property and not in the marriage.
If I remember well, if a lawyer prepares the act, he will charge the 1.5% of the value of the assets contained in the declaration.

Frankly, I don't like the "Panamian approach" to maintain an asset outside the common law type marriage. I find it weak.
Bickerss, isn't it better to openly discuss about it with your partner and sign a "Liquidacion", while you're still in time? Doing it after the marriage will be a painful process...

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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gringoloid says on Feb 26, 2008, 04:56:

bidkers, wouldn't it be better to invest in Buenas Aires, where there are less problems, lower investment costs, bank safety, and a higher return on your investment?

Even in Chile, you could buy a ranch for $40K near the ocean.

You could still live in Colombia while investing elsewhere.

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Brians says on Feb 26, 2008, 04:58:

Robi I agree with the best solution being Liquidation de Sociedad Conyugal. The Pananmain Corp is good in that you can kill someone and good to jail in Colombia and Panama still will not release any information as to Corportation holdings or who the shareholders of the corporation are at any time. Thus if you go through a divorce and they say these properties are owned by the corp. so still have no way to tell who ownes the corp.. You could tell them that you gave your shares away to your mom. This is where is is a little weak as I am sure they could really fight you on this and make your life a bit complicated. Thus an upfront agreement is best but Corp. will offer protection and road blocks that work in your favor. It is probably also cheaper if you are paying 1.5%. The corporation could also hold your US assets so that you could actually have some protection on those assets as well. The laws of divorce in the US will determine the disposition of those assets but if they too are hidden Panama won' release any info. and thus difficult and expensive for her to determine what properties, mortgages, bank accounts all become expensive to research to bring before a judge.

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robi666 says on Feb 26, 2008, 05:01:

Gringoloid, a couple of question for you:
- can you show me the kind of property in Chile that you talk about?
- Which is the typical return of a real estate investment in Buenos Aires and what do you mean with lower investment cost?

Gracias compadre.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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tejasmarcos says on Feb 26, 2008, 05:29:

"Even in Chile, you could buy a ranch for $40K near the ocean."

- I am interested in seeing those type of properties as well! Please send me a PM if you have time and explain what/where is available. Thanks in advance.

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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gringoloid says on Feb 26, 2008, 05:40:

robi..........I just spent about a week with podborski in BsAs, a cosmopolitan, a vibrant european city with an architecture motif like a michelangelo painting.

pod's neighborhood, Soho, may be the coolest part of this metropolis.

There are many apartments available in the $60K to $100K that you can turn around and rent for a grand or twelve hundred a month. And not to mention the 30% price appreciation last year.

These apartments will be worth $200K to $300K sometime in the future.

My opinion and only my opinion........we are near the top of the price cycle in Colombia whereas there is plenty of room for growth in Buenas Aires.

My point is this..........Colombia.......especially Bogotá, is very expensive for SA. In Nicarauga, you can get 80 acres for 40 grand. You just have to go to these places like Chile, etc., you will see the difference.

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Brians says on Feb 26, 2008, 05:52:

Nicarauga has Daniel Ortega again..........I know a person who just invested in an apartment for about $100,000 USD in Buenos Aires and expects to to rent for $1,500 a month however it is structured as almost a land deal as he had no escrow and paid directly to seller and apartment will not be complete until November. Risky to me but he felt comfortable. Here is the web site: http://www.gydarquitectura.com/1024/eng/index1.html

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tejasmarcos says on Feb 26, 2008, 05:58:

brians - he bought in 5411 area (on the website)? how much space (per square feet or meters) did he get? what floor? views?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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gringoloid says on Feb 26, 2008, 06:25:

I also think Nicaraugua is not a good place to invest......I just brought it up to show that there are other opportunities out there.

A friend of mine has a house, on the beach in Belize......$25K..........no one on each side of him for a mile in each direction.

for me though, it's boring to live by yourself, out in the middle of nowhere.

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gringoloid says on Feb 26, 2008, 06:28:

yes brian, that is correct....no escrow and also some other differences in the way they do business there. but let me tell you this..........your friends' apartment will be worth double or triple that amount in the future.

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tejasmarcos says on Feb 26, 2008, 06:29:

gringoloid - chile property? give it up....... where is the info, bro?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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gringoloid says on Feb 26, 2008, 06:29:

still like colombian people better though....

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gringoloid says on Feb 26, 2008, 06:38:

tejas..........i'm not hiding anything from you........this is very, very common there............although I really don't see the price appreciation there in Chile like I do elsewhere.

It's amazing how big Chile is as well as so much property available near the beach.

I have to go the the gym now..............I'll see if I can get the info from my friend who bought there.

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tejasmarcos says on Feb 26, 2008, 06:40:

i assume rentals (ocean view) are easy to come by as well? and cheap?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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bickerss says on Feb 26, 2008, 06:49:

All - thanks for the replies - very interesting.

That 10 to 15 % of assets cost is scary - enough to put me of buying?? Will research that a bit more.

Robbi - thanks for that post - very helpful. If possible, would you mind passing me the details of the company - PM is fine. Thank you, appreciated. I don’t have a partner yet. I am just doing the research now in the event that it happens. Also see my bit on BA below if you want some info - the site mentioned is a good start

Brians - thanks, yes the idea with the Panamanian corp is total anonimity - I would use bearer shares which (theoretically) are untraceable. I generally use the corp though, not to avoid wife payments, but to avoid frivolous lawsuits in the event that for ie I had a car accident and the person wanted to unjustly take me to the cleaners.

Gringoloid - thanks. Yes, i have often thought of Buenos Aires and did some research there when i was there a few times. Amazing place but felt I may have missed the boat on that one as the prices went up so much (I thought). That said - other cities there may be attractive. A few friends bought and rent their places to the hordes of foreigners there and do quite well. I am surprised by what you said in your post about prices – I may have been misinformed lately. 60 k is great – is that in Recoletta? Argentina is def a place I would like an apartment - once of the best cities on the planet.

There is an American guy who set up a business there leasing apartments and doing the ground work for buying for foreigners. He had great information and when I met him seemed like a sounds business model. Unfortunately his prices up increased dramatically, however for those interested check out the website below:

http://www.apartmentsba.com/

I checked out Nicuragua and found places that I like but the country is so poor and the government IMO not stable that I feel it is high risk (although therefore could be very profitable). When I was in Grenada we were without power and water for 12 hrs each day.

I have also checked out Ecuador which is a good buy - especially with the peso dollar. For those interested Quito was quite cheap and so was Cuenca – which is my fav city there. In Cuenca I saw a 14 bedroom, huge, hostel, with two shops, massive kitchen , laundry, restaurant for sale as 300,000 – in the best area. Also canoa was a great place with backpackers pouring in and developing quickly – another place to consider.

However, my reasons for Colombia are that I like living here and wish to stay, so now or later will buy. Unfortunately, the dollar is so low I am waiting for it to appreciate. Another option is to see how the peso has held up with the AUD, which might make it viable. I am willing to take my time and research fully before taking any action, hence why I am gathering information here. While I see the peso is down, I also see Colombia as the next big thing in tourism which could affect prices, especially if they bring in the foreign investment regulations.

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gringoloid says on Feb 26, 2008, 06:58:

tejas...........I only know what a friend who bought there told me..........he looked here in colombia first. chile is remote, but he says he can handle it.............if i was going there, i would look at buying something near the american and french owned or partnered ski resorts......Portillo or Val Nevado, but only because I like skiing so much.

what are they getting per night?........$500 bucks in the low season? Apartments that you can turn into gringo hotels are a great investment anywhere, including colombia.

podborski is really the expert on all this as he has a lot of banking and investment experience.

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sloopskipper says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:00:

Certain LA countries prohibit foreign ownership in proximity of the beach, like I understand Mexico.

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tejasmarcos says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:03:

"There is an American guy who set up a business there leasing apartments and doing the ground work for buying for foreigners. He had great information and when I met him seemed like a sounds business model. Unfortunately his prices up increased dramatically, however for those interested check out the website below:"

- i spoke to this guy over two years ago. he is from dallas as well. he made his moves when the time was right.

- podborski lives in BA?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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RAAAY says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:06:

" podborski lives in BA? "....................Yes

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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tejasmarcos says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:11:

why is pod on this board? does he have real estate interests here as well?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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gringoloid says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:14:

that may be correct sloop, you may have to be just "near" the beach. that's why i said you have to get a feel for things by being there for awhile.

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tejasmarcos says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:19:

i thought you were goin to the gym GL? are you still moving to MDE?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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gringoloid says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:22:

pod should be entering the forum in about an hour during his lunch break. he's already said this here in the open, but he lived in bogota for sometime and found it very difficult to do business here.

that's exactly the way i feel about it, now that I've had several bad business experiences ...........very difficult.

In my case, I'm only investing the minimum for my visa, everything else stays in the usa, europe, or buenas aires.

i'm only advising this guy bickerss, who i don't know, to be careful with his investments.

i had a bank account opened for 2 weeks at colmena........then it 'disappeared' along with the money in it.

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gringoloid says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:28:

you guys get me wound up on all this real estate talk............you're demotivating me from exercising.....:).........plus my maid just walked in and she's giving me my spanish lesson.

I'm having a terrible time selling my home in CA..........may be unsellable for a decent price under current market conditions. I would feel more comfortable moving to mde once my house is either sold or rented. the contract with the current agent ends on 3/7.

i don't know what to do.

maybe go to the gym now.........jaja

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tejasmarcos says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:32:

"i had a bank account opened for 2 weeks at colmena........then it 'disappeared' along with the money in it."

- that is a MAJOR issue and hindrance.

"plus my maid just walked in and she's giving me my spanish lesson."

- in speech or cardio? ;)

* the mess un the USA housing market is truly sad. i am also stuck with a "non appreciating" asset in fort worth. thank god i sold everything else back in 2004.

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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wendell13 says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:35:

This is like the dot com bubble....BUY BUY BUY

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gringoloid says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:35:

Ken....keep in mind that Los Colombianos are much friendlier, hospitable, and the women more beautiful. Pod would agree with that.

So, "Invest in BA.......Live in Colombia!"

sounds like a marketing slogan.

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tejasmarcos says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:37:

Quito sounds tempting. How is the vibe in Quito?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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bickerss says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:49:

Quito is excellent - I went there expecting the worst after all the horror stories, but was pleasently surprised. Nice city with lots to do, good bars, clubs restaurants and with the dollar is it so cheap (ie non backpacker hostel with own room / bthroom, nice place 8 usd a night - ribs meal with vegetables and soup 6.99 usd - set meal places 1.50 to 2 usd) - taxi ride most places I went to 1.25 to 1.50 usd).

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bickerss says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:54:

agree Ken - the women were nothing like in colombia, but still in the bars and clubs you can find really nice looking ones who are nice people as well - I iked it. There were a lot of backpackers though - but not as crowded as say peru. In Cuenca we didnt see many backpackers and is IMO one of the best colonial towns I have been to.

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tejasmarcos says on Feb 26, 2008, 07:55:

how does the visa work? do they issue automatic 60, 90? is it hard to get an extended visa?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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guacharaca says on Feb 26, 2008, 08:42:

Does anyone have a web link for the Colombian law about "Liquidacion de Sociedad Conyugal"? Naturally it will be in Spanish, but I, like any other guy that has two nickels to rub together, would like to give it a peruse.

Colombianos: Las armas os han dado independencia, las leyes os daran libertad. (Santander)

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robi666 says on Feb 26, 2008, 08:44:

Gringoloid, I was also looking at Portillo, I miss skiing so much, but I found some real estate on the web and it looked damn expensive...
Fincas looked expensive too, and construction costs.
Am I missing something?

I am sure BA is beautiful. Lots of Italian live there... maybe I should go there and visit...

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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tejasmarcos says on Feb 26, 2008, 09:09:

robi - did you get my email?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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RAAAY says on Feb 26, 2008, 10:34:

....." I am sure BA is beautiful. Lots of Italian live there..."

Yeah......that is the problem there.......too many f**kin Eye-Talians.......

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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gringoloid says on Feb 26, 2008, 11:40:

robi......take a look at what they're getting to rent those places: $500 a night in the low season, and $900 a night in the high season. Thats where it starts, I'm sure the luxury places are a whole lot more.

There were a lot of us in the usa that took skiing very, very seriously. to get an edge on our competition, we would head down to chile to get tuned up in the summer time. it was well worth it and many americans are willing to pay those outrageous costs.

there are other places and cities right down the mountain that are cheaper.

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tejasmarcos says on Feb 26, 2008, 12:27:

GL - so where are the good deals in Chile you spoke of earlier? Everything looks super expensive to me...

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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gringoloid says on Feb 26, 2008, 13:23:

That is just around the ski resorts and I don't know why that property is priced that way. that seems just too high.

but start here:

http://www.realestateinchile.com/

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gringoloid says on Feb 26, 2008, 13:33:

Chile is a huge country, north to south, with not many people living there. So around Santiago say, those prices are going to be high.

northern chile is warm, dry and you'll need an irrigation system; in some parts of this country it has never rained since records have been kept.

you won't get the appreciation in these areas, but the land is a giveaway.

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robi666 says on Feb 27, 2008, 04:06:

GL, you have to compare apples to apples...

Colombia is even bigger and if you go to Colombian remote areas the land is a giveaway, too. Try a beachfront in remote Choco... think about a 100 ha property for 5000 USD.

http://chile-yen.com/Chile_Real_Estate.html talks about "building costs for a very nice new custom designed home are approximately $70 USD per sq.ft". How long ago? That's around 1,400,000 Pesos per sq.m.
I'd say almost double than in Colombia, where you can build a VERY nice house for I'd say 850,000 COP per sq.m.
I know, everything depends on finishing materials, but I had a look at the pictures there and talk for my experience.

Chile looks expensive to me.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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tejasmarcos says on Feb 27, 2008, 04:29:

nice lookin site, but i could not find any real inventory that was for sale or rent. sounds like it may be worth investigating though...

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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gringoloid says on Feb 27, 2008, 04:41:

tejas......just as in colombia, you can't look for real estate over the internet; it's mostly people trying to overcharge foreigners.

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gringoloid says on Feb 27, 2008, 04:44:

robi.....i don't think you can compare apples to apples in real estate........

real estate is very local.......neighborhoods here in bogota differ greatly.

as i said above........anything you see on the internet in terms of property sales is overpriced.

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vicshere says on Feb 27, 2008, 04:49:

rob what about the cost of your small army to ptotect your ass while living on your cheap land in Choco...that can take you over the top

listo

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gringoloid says on Feb 27, 2008, 04:57:

chile is arguably a more comfortable place than colombia in terms of the climate and chile is very easy on the eyes.......magnificent panoramas............where you can use the great outdoors and not worry about being kidnapped.

there is clean ocean air, and in the northern part it doesn't rain. Car Traffic? forgetaboutit!

so in terms of money........how do we subtract monetarily the rain, humidity, air pollution, traffic problems and lack of road maintenance, crime, FARC, etc., etc,? and then try and balance chile and colombia?

You can't, it's all very local.

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robi666 says on Feb 27, 2008, 06:29:

Of course I am not saying that i would develop in Choco, Vic.

First, I am comparing cost of construction and that's what you normally do first. The minimum salary is much higher in Chile than Colombia, that's why the higher cost there.

Second, I am debating that land is cheaper in Chile, which is not at all, looking at the websites around.

Third, I'd love to have a place in Portillo to go skiing, but it seems damn expensive and you simply cannot find a comparable price in Colombia. Nowhere.

Now, I haven't been there, I am just judging on what I see on the Internet.

Kidnapping and security problems? That's probably why Colombia is cheaper than Chile.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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rumronrum says on Mar 14, 2008, 04:32:

You might want to check this site for more info

www.medellinvisitorguide.com

RumRonRum

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rocinante says on Mar 14, 2008, 08:19:

Ecuador has the most upside potential. It's safe, cheap, close to Colombia, agreeable weather in the higher elevations, and realestate is a bargain. BUT most importantly their currency is the USD. No need to wait years to see if the USD is ever going to hit 2000 to the COP again. Some of you guys are looking for 2300-2500.

5,6 years a go was the perfect time to buy in Colombia - but look at things today for those US expats that did. Their monthly income is now only worth 60% of what it was due to inflation and exchange rate AND try getting a buyer (US or Colombia) for your Colombian Realestate today for fair market value.

Please understand that anything that causes the COP drop to the low levels of last year and beyond would have to be something catostrophic that will also adversly affect the price of realestate. Colombia's peso was gainig on the dollar before the US recession. The recent strength of the peso is due to what Colombia is doing - not as much as what the US is doing - obviously realted - but if the US goes flat and stays there the COP will continue to advance.

Colombia's pole vault out of the basement started 5,6 years ago. That was the perfect time to buy - can you buy now and make money in 20 years? Hell yeah. But 5,6 years ago was perfect - perfect exhance rate, perfect realestate market (cheap) and Colombia was on the cusp of political and economic surge.

Ecuador is there NOW and uses the dollar.

Also these expat websites and magazines (International Living, etc...) are pumping up Ecuador just like they did to Costa Rica and Panama - and you all know what happened/is happening there. They know what they are doing (and they are already heavily invested there - what they are doing is illegal in the SEC regulated stock markets but in realestate it is perfectly legal) Did I mention that there's tremendous upside potential in Ecuador?

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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tejasmarcos says on Mar 14, 2008, 08:34:

roci - you are spot on regarding colombia. i have been considering ecuador as well, especially here lately. however, i have spoke to a few folks from ecuador (who have money) and they are very concerned about their left leaning president and government. how should a potential real estate investor/business person deal with that risk?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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RAAAY says on Mar 14, 2008, 08:46:

Colombia may have been cheaper 5-6 years ago.................but relatively speaking it is still cheap.............

There is a three b/room apt for sale in my building right now..........amazing views......beautifull pool, gym, steam room. It's like trying to get into Fort Knox to get in here.
They are asking 230 million. The place has to be worth $150,000.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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tejasmarcos says on Mar 14, 2008, 08:48:

how many meters, ray? how old is the building? what are the admin fees?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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rocinante says on Mar 14, 2008, 08:54:

Good question Tejas. Everybody looks at things a different way and yes there is always risk and hindsight is 20/20 and all the other cliches - bit risk can be calculated and exposure minimized - through research.

The few folks from Ecuador (who have money) are very concerned about their left leaning government. This is usually French for "I'm loaded and don't want my taxes going up because of some socialist policies".

Does this affect the price of realestate? Does this affect the economy? Just how radical a change do your friends forsee? Or are they just worried about finding a tax shelter?

I guess your income is from the US. Theirs is from Ecuador. Every year the entire world leans more and more left. It doesn't matter who the government is. Bush has been in the white house for 8 years. Under his watch the US now has gay marriage in some states. Since Reagan the US has been dominantly run republican. The list of implemented left policies between then and now has been pretty big. THere's nudity and foul language on regualr TV. Even today, although a longshot, the fact that "One nation under God" is even being talked about as potentially being removed from US currency shows just how things are a changin'. Ditto other countries as well.

People with money rarely want to see change, especially from the left as it is viewed as a threat. I guess to continue this we'd need more information.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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tejasmarcos says on Mar 14, 2008, 09:04:

i'd be interested in making an investigatory trip to quito and do some looking around. another poster bertex from this board said that there are some good beach front property deals to be had outside quito as well - no infrastructure yet. however, who wants to get a great deal only to lose it later to the government.

i have friends that invested almost $1 million USD in the past building a beautiful home in phuket only to have the government consficate it (nationalize it) just before it was finished. it took a year to build and they never got to sleep in it one time. big, big bummer.....

they are filthy rich, so it was not a total loss for them, but that loss principal is a real bitch!

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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rocinante says on Mar 14, 2008, 09:30:

I hear ya. I spent a few days in Quito. It gets a bit chilly at night hitting 60F. I would guess the beachfront property could be pretty hot weather. Phuket nationalized ALL property? All of Thailand? Just foreign investments? What were the guidelines? I can't say this is a normal occurence in the real world since Castro, or recently when Chavez just nationalized some foreign oil businesses - I beleieve he was right in doing that but I refuse to discuss that here.

I would think you are safer investing in a city such as Quito as opposed to some outskirts beachfront property where some hotel company partially owned by some governor's brother pulls some imminent domain crap.

Ususally when there are some "IFs" is when the time is right. Just think if there are no IFs it's too late. Think of the IFs in Colombia during Pastrana.

By the way Uribe's positive approval rate is 83% as reported in yesterday's El Colombiano.

I have not been there is a while but International Living has good information - a grat deal on Ecuador - athough I don't know if they have a forum.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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tejasmarcos says on Mar 14, 2008, 09:44:

"Phuket nationalized ALL property? All of Thailand? Just foreign investments? What were the guidelines?"

- i do not know all of the details, i just know it happened. i think they use a "case by case" basis or iow, we can fork you out of your property anytime we want. i also met some vietnam vets that owned really nice properties there from way back and they all had the properties titled in the names of their thai wives.

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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Ctg Bound says on Mar 14, 2008, 09:47:

rocinante,

The first thing to do before looking at a Country, is to look at the recent history of the Country and its people.

Therefore I wouln't put a cent in Argentina, Equador, Ven to name but three, WAY to unstable Countries who have a history of problems that will have a direct bearing on real estate prices.

If a person believes a Country and its people have changed, which they do, fine, but I don't believe it in the above cases and some other Countries in South and Central America, for the near present at least have changed.

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rocinante says on Mar 14, 2008, 09:49:

"Therefore I wouln't put a cent in Argentina, Equador, Ven to name but three, WAY to unstable Countries who have a history of problems that will have a direct bearing on real estate prices." CtgBound

I am only talking about one coutry to name but one. Obviously using your mentality you are ready to purchase today in Colombia instead of 6 years ago. We all have our own thresholds of risk tolerance.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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bickerss says on Mar 14, 2008, 10:35:

If you want beachfront in Ecuador I would check out Canoa and the surrounding areas. Growing area,and quite nice.

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robi666 says on Mar 14, 2008, 10:41:

1) The bigger the risk, the bigger the gain. If you want to risk there are better ways to do it than real estate in a risky country.
2) You invest in Colombian real estate if you want to live in Colombia. You do in Ecuador if you want to live in Ecuador.

All the rest means nothing.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Ctg Bound says on Mar 14, 2008, 11:06:

rocinante,

I started investing 6 years ago in Colombia, Colombia has no history of hard core left wing goverments, also has never had large economic problems that constanly repeat as in the above Countries, I expected that the people would have enough of the drug/FARC related problems and would put a cap on them.

I advised a number of people in 2002-2005 to invest in Colombia, a number of people also asked me about Argentina amd Equador, I told them that I wouldn't touch those Countries with a barge pole.

These problems don't start over night, they are already there if a person bothers to look, many don't.

I know people in Ven. who want to sell up, but no buyers, they should have sold up years ago, it doesn't take much to see what sort of person and government Chavez was going to turn into, each year he was/is going to get worse.

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rocinante says on Mar 14, 2008, 12:10:

CTG - We don't know if Colombia's problems are going to repeat because they have been constant since the early 80s. I agree they don't start overnight, nor do they end over night. Things are better in Colombia now. We'll see if they repeat in years to come.

I see Ecuador as politically neutral meaning not changing all that much from a foreign investor/retiree standpoint. Abortion? School parayer? Gay rights? What does the foreign expat or retiree care about that? I doubt a foreigner with an apartment in Quito is at risk of losing his entire investment to nationalization - hasn't even happened in Venezuela. Stability comes to mind. A great surging economy is to be found in Chile. But the same problems with currency moving away from your USD exists there as well. Ecuador does not have that problem and the real estate market there is posied to take off. The main thing is that Latin America is going to be a player like China and India in regards to labor force services and manufacturing. As a result if you are paid in dollars you are taking a huge currency exposure risk living in Latin American countries that are not pegged to or use the USD. This is not the case in Panama nor Ecuador nor Mexico (artifically pegged and rightfully so). Do your main banking in the US.

My bottom line and I'll get out of this thread is if I'm receiving monthly payments in USD I move to Panama, Mexico or Ecuador - or I prepare myself for my monthly income to be halved over the next in 3 years and after that maybe more.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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tejasmarcos says on Mar 14, 2008, 12:16:

fork me running. i better get off my culo and make some COP!

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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robi666 says on Mar 14, 2008, 12:17:

One easy way to make some COP is stopping to pay a rent. :)

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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tejasmarcos says on Mar 14, 2008, 12:29:

that would have been great. damn, i hate missing the boat!

- i bought a 2500 sq ft home with a 1/4 acre lot for $57 a sq ft. in dallas 4 years ago. i just find it hard to cought up $110 - 120 a sq ft here, especially when i see all the great bargains that others realized 2-3 years ago. i may be chasing cheap rent for my duration in colombia, unless i can secure some monthly income in COP.

- still looking for that "killer deal".......

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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Ctg Bound says on Mar 14, 2008, 12:30:

rocinante,

If Colombia is to go back, it won't be overnight, only the future will tell, but I doubt it will.

I don't see Ecuador in a postive light, if you do thats up to you, Ecuador is not a Country that I believe can be trusted.

Foreigners are losing land in Venezuela, a number of larger foreign land owners have been nationalised in the last few years, the process is always the same, start with the big companies, then the middle ones etc., presently Venezuela has reached some of the middle ones.

The process will carry on until Chavez is removed, I don't expect to a foreigner with an apt to have a direct problem, as I expect he will have probably gone by then before it gets that far.

BUT they have a tendancy to disrupt and fuck up the economies while this is going on, making assets worth less in local terms and a lot more less in foreign currency terms.

As to a dollarised economy, than can go overnight as did the dollar peg in Argentina.

As to taking currency risks if you are paid in a currency that is not of the Country you are residing, I disagree, you are taking more risk because all your assets are in one currency, better to have the assets in more than one currency.

So if I had dollars I would prefer not to be in a dollar related Country. We can presently see why.

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Saltador says on Mar 14, 2008, 14:08:

rocinante,
"or I prepare myself for my monthly income to be halved over the next in 3 years and after that maybe more".
Are you predicting a 900 COP to the dollar in three years? 3 years after that 450 to 1? Then 150? Then 50? Then even? Then maybe starting the other way, i.e 50 dollars to one Colombian peso, and on up the ladder?
It seems to me that this is a pendulum swinging, and there will be a reversal to the mean. The US government will not just continue to let the dollar go into freefall. Granted, it may take some doing to slow the runaway freight train, but it can be done.
And I agree with CTG bound on Ecuador. I looked into buying property there, but the current leadership scared me away. I doubt we see any explosion in prices there, it may raise or double off a small base, but it's never going to be Costa Rica.

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tejasmarcos says on Mar 14, 2008, 14:28:

"but it's never going to be Costa Rica."

- why not?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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jonas says on Mar 14, 2008, 14:51:

How many presidents has Ecuador had in the past 10 years? So I wouldn´t worry too much about the current government but rather about instability. But if you consider living there, ask yourself if you would consider living in Pasto. And Ecuador is a lot more pastuzo que Pasto. I know lots of foreigners that have left Ecuador in the past years, including myself. The time to invest there was 2000 and before. Ecuador with the Sucre was great fun but the dollar has really changed the country and it´s people to the worst in my opinion.

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

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Saltador says on Mar 14, 2008, 14:52:

The relationship between the governments. Costa Rica has been seen as friendly towards the US for years.
Ecuador? Friendly towards Chavez, the US hater.
Big difference.

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aztec says on Mar 14, 2008, 14:53:

You people are too late for investment in real estate in Bogotá, Colombia. Many of us missed the opportunity about 5 or 6 years ago!

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tejasmarcos says on Mar 14, 2008, 15:09:

"And Ecuador is a lot more pastuzo que Pasto"

- what does this mean, jonas?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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jonas says on Mar 14, 2008, 15:20:

It means that Ecuador mainly consists of indigenous population. And dealing with indigenous people can sometimes be very difficult. Especially in Ecuador most people feel inferior to anything non-Ecuadorian. This somehow leads to a somewhat aggressive behavior towards gringos. I have lived there for about 6 years and I must say that I have made very few Ecuadorian friends. Girls yes, but to make "buddies" there is extremely difficult. Most foreigners therefore hang out only with other foreigners. Very, very different from Colombia. When you ask a Colombian about Colombia he will proudly tell you that it is the best country in the world (even if he has never been anywhere else). Try asking an Ecuadorian. They are ashamed of themselves and their country.
IMO very pretty country, very crappy people.

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

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rocinante says on Mar 14, 2008, 15:41:

Hearing comments like this kinda proves the point in my mind. I'm sure these same types of comments went on about Colombia 6 years ago.

And now Chavez and Uribe are friendly. I saw it on the news last night. They shook hands. Friendly? I need to look that up. Ecuador is friendly with Chavez and Chavez hates the US so...

"prepare myself for my monthly income to be halved over the next in 3 years" That should have read "the buying power of your income" to be halved. I initially thought inflation might be obvious but my words sucked. Sorry 'bout that.

In another thread I talked about inflation in Colombia AND the COP/USD together. I'll try to find it.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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robi666 says on Mar 14, 2008, 15:47:

Price of finca raiz will double in the next five years (Medellin).
Net income for the owner from rent will be 3% (down from 7%) in 5 years.
Yearly inflation in Colombia will be between 4% and 8% in the next five years.
Salario minimo will increase more than inflation every year.
GDP growth rate in between 4% and 9%.
Peroni beer price will follow Euro inflation and Euro exchange toward pesos: it will cost 250 pesos more than Club Colombia in 5 years.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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rocinante says on Mar 14, 2008, 16:11:

24 months ago in March 2006 the COP was 2275 and a bus ride was 1.000 pesos (today 1.200), taxi to airport just turned 42.000 (today 48.000).

Today the COP closes at 1850

Bus then 44 cents - Now 65 cents = that an increase of 47% to the US citizen in 24 months.
Taxi then $18.46 - Now 25.95 = 41% increase to the US citzen in 24 months.

If I do this for other general cost of living items (food, booze, medicine etc....) the numbers are in the ball park.

It's almost half after 2 years.

If it's not obvious by now I'm bearish on the Dollar vs the Peso. The Peso is earning its gain. Not just taking a ride because the Dollar has been falling and the US is hitting a recession. Just because the dollar will come back a bit against some real benchmark currencies doesn't mean the COP will drop. Colombia has economic and political growth potential.

There are about 15 threads or more talking about the peso vs. the dollar. I'm not gettting into everything again here.

I rarely see foreigners here in Medellín with real buddies either - except other foreigners. How can one have a real buddy if the two don't speak the same language?

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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jonas says on Mar 14, 2008, 16:24:

Sorry mate but I do speak pretty good and fluent Spanish and I do have Colombian buddies here. And I really don´t understand how people can live in a place and barely know the language. I guess in that case the language is $$$.

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

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Saltador says on Mar 14, 2008, 16:25:

rocinante,
Ok, time will tell.... As you know, I'm just hoping you're wrong. But it's nothing personal, just the falling dollar inflicts real pain on myself and others. I guess it helps some others, but that's small consolation.
I feel like I've got some true amigos in Cartagena, but I can communicate with them on a basic level with my intermediate spanish.

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rocinante says on Mar 14, 2008, 16:30:

I'm not talking about you mate. Don't you know you are the exception to the rule? The language is so $ and it doesn't even know it.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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TioJoe says on Apr 1, 2008, 07:37:

I do not post often but here is some current information regarding money transfers for a home purchase we made 2 years ago.


Every time you make a money transfer a form has to be filled out and recorded by both the buyer and seller. Sadly if the people you are buying the apartment or home from do not complete their end of the paperwork a penalty is assessed against your purchase and you may never know it. The amount accrues rapidly and after a few years, when you wish to sell, it comes to light. The total amount of the penalties and interest can be substantial and has been more than the value of the real estate in some cases. We found this out by doing a little due diligence, even though we had an attorney and an accountant helping us with the purchase of our apartment. It was missed because all the penalty paperwork was sent to the builder and not to the address where they placed the lien. It only cost us about $400.000 thousand peso however there were 3 different forms involved over 2 years and 16 transfers, 1 of the transfers was not filed by the builder correctly. I believe it was Banco de la Republica is where you must go to verify if all money exchanges are done properly for your home. I would not ignore this if you have purchased real estate by transferring money from the USA. Get your attorney to check it out. We were told that this is a very common and expensive mistake a lot of people have made.

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Saltador says on Apr 1, 2008, 07:49:

Tio Joe,
Can you be more specific on what forms need to be filled out? I have heard of forms 4 and 11 being needed, what is the third?

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TioJoe says on Apr 2, 2008, 17:17:

My mistake -- it was the two forms you mentioned

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