More Immigrants saying "Hasta La Vista USA" & Going Back Home

rocinante says on Jun 1, 2008, 03:35:

I'm finding folks here saying they "used to" want to go to the US and give it a whirl. Many of them coupled the whirl with visiting friends and family they had in the US. It's funny and I can't explain why but the majority of the people I speak with who still have a desire to go are from estrato 6 and already have all they could want here.

So in edition to going home we've got ones who are no longer considering taking the journey.

Thanks for the link Mike. I'll read it when I'm fully awake. There was a loud brawl on my street moments ago; cops, broads, people laying on the street, the whole 9. Second one this month.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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Ekdog says on Jun 1, 2008, 05:23:

I guess Bush has found a way to deal with the immigrant "problem": destroy the American economy, ship millions of jobs abroad and make the few that do remain so poorly paid and bereft of benefits that even desperate folks from the Third World won't accept them.

Thanks, Bush.

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rocinante says on Jun 1, 2008, 06:09:

I don't like Bush - I don't like any president. The mass exodus of jobs started a long time before him. Most recent crimes against US jobs started with Clinton. I remember large investment banks really starting to kick in the outsourcing before the dot.com surge. I'm talking 1996. Also during a debate with Gore/Bush in '99 someone brought up "What are we going to do to keep jobs in the US"

However the US President doesn't dictate what jobs go where so blaming any president is naive.

The government does look the other way as large corporations seek to inflate profits by setting up shop and hiring cheap labor overseas - this since manufacturing left the US over 30 years ago. It's called globalization. Hate it or love it it is affecting the world.

Where's the medium? Because your clothes are made in China/India/Indonesia they are very affordable. The US could manufacture anything and everything, pay the US union workers $75/hr and your basic $25 shirt would now cost $125. But you guys never see that.

You want your jobs to be high payng so you can buy a swimming pool and trade in that 4 year old car AND the goods to be cheap so you can buy more. At the expense of...... How do you keep all the jobs in the US, make them pay well and keep the price of everything affordable?

What could help...

The corporations are making too much money and should be heavily taxed, subsidizing us little people. Also it wouldn't hurt if the gov mandated that a corporation keep a certain number of jobs in the US. But if the company goes global how do you enforce that? Why can't Bank Of America open a data center in Banglor India?

I guess the bribes from corporations to all political parties is enough to keep the US gov looking the other way.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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aztec says on Jun 1, 2008, 06:12:

rocinante, remember corporations are owned by me and you (check your pension fund). More tax means less for me and more for the government.

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rocinante says on Jun 1, 2008, 06:15:

Yes Aztec - I was going to say if you can't beat them join them - buy stock in these large US corporations and move to a country where it's cheap to live. Get the best of both worlds.

But seriously more tax from the large corporations and LESS from the little guys like you and me.

Not to continue hijacking this thread but I'm all for a flat tax -Steve Forbes for President!

Hey lots of little countries kind of already do that. THey have a blend, like here in Colombia 16% - and no income tax for earners of less than 5 millones per month.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on Jun 1, 2008, 06:20:

Howabout 20% in the the US (not on groceries or medecine but let the gove keep Booze, smokes, sin....) and incomes over 100K get a 15% card and over 150K get a 10% discount card and over 175K no card.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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rhydewithdis says on Jun 1, 2008, 07:29:

GREAT article on this same exact subject;
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/nyregion/04brazilians.html?



That decision — to give up on life in the United States — is being made by more and more Brazilians across the country, according to consular officials, travel agencies swamped by one-way ticket bookings, and community leaders in the neighborhoods that Brazilian immigrants have transformed, from Boston to Pompano Beach, Fla.

They said I couldn't play football I was too small / They say I couldn't play basketball I wasn't tall / They say I couldn't play baseball at all / And now everyday of my life I ball.

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Medellin Traveler says on Jun 1, 2008, 07:35:

More reasons...

Ford to build Fiesta subcompact in Mexico

MEXICO CITY, May 30 (Reuters) - Ford Motor Co will build its new subcompact Fiesta model in Mexico and revamp two plants in the country in a $3 billion investment as the struggling U.S. automaker tries to return to profitability.

The launch of the Fiesta subcompact is crucial to Ford's attempt to shift toward the faster-growing market for smaller and more fuel-efficient cars and crossovers and to reduce its reliance on higher-margin but slower-selling trucks.

Chief Executive Alan Mulally said on Friday Ford and its suppliers will sink the money into Ford's Mexican plants. The Cuautitlan plant, near Mexico City, will start building the Fiesta in early 2010 for export to the United States.

The investment also includes a joint venture with Getrag JV for a transmission plant in the central state of Guanajuato.

"Ford is investing $2.4 billion and $600 million is from our suppliers," Mulally said at a news conference at Mexico's presidential residence, where images of the new car were displayed.
Ford has indicated it is looking to shift other assembly plants from a focus on trucks to smaller cars just as it is doing in the Mexican state of Chihuahua, where it plans to build diesel engines for small and medium trucks for export.

The Fiesta is scheduled for launch in the U.S. market in 2010. Ford, like other U.S. automakers, have said higher labor costs make the production of small cars unprofitable for U.S. factories even after a cost-saving labor deal with the United Auto Workers union.
The Fiesta will debut in Europe and Asia later in 2008.

JOB CREATION
Ford discussed its plans for Fiesta production privately with UAW leaders well in advance, providing the business case for producing the car in Mexico, Joe Hinrichs, Ford's head of global manufacturing, told reporters in Detroit on Friday.

Mulally told reporters last week that the sharp jump in gas prices had led to a permanent shift in demand toward cars and crossovers and away from the large trucks and Ford would need to adjust its production accordingly.

Sales of Ford's F-Series pickup trucks have fallen 15 percent through April, hit by slower U.S. housing construction and record gas prices.

The Ford trucks have been the best-selling vehicles in the U.S. market for over 20 years, and the light truck segment had been Ford's most lucrative before the most recent slump.
Ford said the investments will create 4,500 jobs at its Mexican plants, where auto workers earn substantially less than their American counterparts.

Mexican President Felipe Calderon, who spoke alongside Mulally, said it would be the biggest investment ever in Mexico's manufacturing sector.

The decision to build the Fiesta in Mexico comes as the No. 2 U.S. automaker struggles with a slumping U.S. auto market and rising gasoline prices that are leading drivers to sour on big gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs.

Ford said it will convert its Cuautitlan plant just outside Mexico City, which produces F-Series pickup trucks, to begin assembling the Fiesta.

The company, which has lost more than $15 billion over the past two years, last week abandoned its goal of returning to profitability by 2009.

It has also bought out more than 38,000 union-represented U.S. workers, slashed cut-rate sales to car rental agencies and pushed to unify its global vehicle development in an effort to reduce costs and boost margins.

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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tomtom33 says on Jun 1, 2008, 07:53:

Taxing business is taxing everyone in more ways than one. A tax is a cost of business that must be recouped in the price of goods and services. It is really the consumers of those goods and services that pay those taxes. And there is a cost to business for collecting and paying those taxes. That adds more to the cost.

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Medellin Traveler says on Jun 1, 2008, 08:13:

It looks worst, and worser (sic) by the day..........

Think the Economy Is Bad? Wait Till the States Cut Back

New York Times
By LOUIS UCHITELLE - Published: June 1, 2008

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/01/weekinreview/01uchitelle.html?ref=we...

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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rocinante says on Jun 1, 2008, 09:59:

TomTom, I meant (dreamt) that corporations should cut their profits.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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LDW says on Jun 1, 2008, 10:23:

I know Colombians who have tried Canada, who could not cope with the change in climate and then went back to Colombia again

There is a chronic labor shortage in some parts of Canada, yet some Colombians (the ones I know anyhow) would rather be unemployed where it's warm than employed where it's cold.

The employment situation in Colombia really sucks. It's a good place to be once one's pension is locked in, or if one is already financially independent. For most, however, Colombia does not make the cut for those who want to build up a nest egg.

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miamimike says on Jun 1, 2008, 10:31:

LDW--if the Situation is as bad as some say in Colombia, Tell me, who is buying all those new Bogota Condos and setting records as far as new car Sales?? Where these people getting all this $$$ if the Employment situation is as bad as some claim? Here in Miami, we readily see the effects of the recession as evidenced by much smaller crowds in the Restaurants(some miami eateries report a 50% decrease), big drops in Home sales, the Shopping lines are noticably smaller at Target, Home Depot. This doesn't appear to be the case in Colombian(bogota) Restaurants, Dept Stores, New Car Dealers ect.

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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OneHappyBoy says on Jun 1, 2008, 10:33:

wait? we are talking about "illegal immigration?" YES, it should be hard for these folks to get jobs, and it doesn't have anything to do with the tax structure.

These folks need to go home and enter the country LEGALLY. Not just because the US has a stick up their butts, but so they can have workers rights, and access to benefits. It keeps the whole system honest, from the business owner to the worker. lets not forget the huge increases in crime in those border towns, where illegal crossing are rampant.

There are hospitals closing their emergency departments and maternity wards in Colorado and California because illegals are leaving them with so many unpaid bills. In the meat packing plants, the illegals have no health insurance or workers comp. (they won't pay if they are illegal). If a guy cuts off his finger, oh well, just call him "three fingers", throw on a Band Aid and send him back to work.

I am all for LEGAL immigration, but it does suck how the guy wanting to make an honest buck ends up being screwed in low paying jobs. If people came through on work visas, wages would be higher, and the quality of life would improve for these folks.

if the source countries would work a little harder building their economy, their citizens would need to flee to the US for crappy wages. When a country's, like Mexico, #2 source of foriegn receipts is wire transfers from the US, SOMETHING is wrong!! Mexico's economy took a major hit a couple of years back when we started to tighten money laundering compliance and the wire transfers dropped 3% year over year, post 911.

The only thing that keeps a stable economy is if everybody plays by the same rules; the corporations, the workers and the government.

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LDW says on Jun 1, 2008, 10:44:

well miamimike......I can only go on the anecdotal evidence from people I know. I am sure my information, like anyone else's, would be biased in the sense that it would based on the social strata of people I know from Colombia. But even wealthy people I know there (landowners mostly) say the employment situation is bad.

For those who are buying stuff there, I would bet that much of that money is coming in from Colombians returning home or from ex pats going there to retire. A pension that would be a bare subsistence in Canada (or the US...hence would not trigger much restaurant business or much a line up at Target) would be a comfortable retirement in Colombia.

My part of Canada is still doing very well. I live in an oil and gas producing area, and farmers are doing well too. There is a chronic labor shortage here....a huge deficit in vocational and professional talent. And many of us (including me) are reaching retirement age (I am in my 60's)..............which means the shortage is actually getting worse here right now.

In my profession, almost all of us within a large radius are in our 50's and 60's. I know a guy in his 70's. There are no younger guys (or gals) coming up to replace us. I am having a hell of a time getting retired for just that reason. People will not leave me alone, largely because there is nobody else.

And many of us ARE taking our money elsewhere.

However, I was in Florida in December, and could see what was going on there. I concur with your observations on that one.

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adrimm says on Jun 1, 2008, 11:22:

I was astounded at the extent of construction i saw in Bogota.. to me is is clear evidence that things are indeed looking up in Colombia's economy... and those that have good skills have better job prospects there now than they ever have in the last 20 years.

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LDW says on Jun 1, 2008, 11:25:

That's good......but sadly, in Colombia, I would bet that there are still a lot more skilled people around than there are jobs.

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adrimm says on Jun 1, 2008, 11:34:

Sure but why be second-class citizen, in an unfriendly climate far from the comfort & support of family when you have better chances of making it on home-turf than you ever had before? It's not like most skilled immigrants actually end up working in their fields in Canada - the professional associations are too protectionist and employers dont' want someone with an accent.

I think that multinationals are starting to take notice at the educated workforce in Colombia.. eventually what happened in Ireland may start to happen there.

To me the real economic problems in Colombia from the immense pool of unskilled/uneducated workers. Labour there is totally undervalued & it only reinforces the amazing wage disparity seen there.

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sanandressi says on Jun 1, 2008, 11:34:

Export jobs, import people (illegal immigrants). The Democrats want to give the country away and the Republicans want to sell it......take your pick?

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LDW says on Jun 1, 2008, 11:59:

adrimm.....yes....I agree....insofar as professional and/or trades people are concerned.

However, the Colombians to which I referred in my first post on this thread were here in Canada on work permits doing entry level jobs. With our labor shortage here, those are the most difficult jobs to fill. They were not professionals or trades people. Their English was very limited. But they gave up anyway, largely because of the severe weather here, which was a complete shock to them, no matter how much they were told about it beforehand. And they were told plenty.

No matter what they were told about the weather here beforehand, they thought they were coming to the promised land. They were shocked at how cold it was even in the fall, before the real winter set in. By January 31, with temperatures at 40 below, they had had enough.

Now they are back in rural Colombia doing nothing. I don't necessarily fault them for that. There is really not much there!!! Not surprisingly, they are talking about coming back to Canada. I guess they just cannot make up their minds about what form of discomfort most suits them (cold and employed, or warm and unemployed).

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tomtom33 says on Jun 1, 2008, 12:35:

"In the meat packing plants, the illegals have no health insurance or workers comp. (they won't pay if they are illegal). If a guy cuts off his finger, oh well, just call him "three fingers", throw on a Band Aid and send him back to work."

You shouldn't believe everything you hear. Workers comp, for example, applies to all workers. Legal status is meaningless.

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gatogris says on Jun 1, 2008, 12:40:

Canada has the highest per capita net immigration rate in the world. In 2007, 250,640 people immigrated to Canada.

U.S. Census Bureau figures show that the U.S. population grew by 2.8 million between July 1, 2004, and July 1, 2005, breaking all previous records, most of which was due to immigration.

In the ebb and flow of mass numbers of people, it is easy to be decieved by impressions. Immigration is here to stay for the long term.

But remember, the global volume of immigration is high in absolute terms, but low in relative terms. The International Integration and Refugee Association estimated 190 million international migrants in 2005, less than 3 percent of global population. The other 97 percent still live in the country in which they were born.

Most scholars agree that the impact of recent immigration on national economies is negligible. The economic impact becomes signifigant only ofter immigrant settle and become repatriated, over a period of years, making it extremely difficult to measure.

The Middle East, small areas of South East Asia, and a few spots in the West Indies have the highest numbers of immigration populations recorded by the UN Census 2005. Not the U.S. and Canada or Western Europe.

The anti-immigration ranting by ignorant fear-mongers like Lou Dobbs in the U.S. and Jean Marie Le Pin Europe is racist grandstanding, nothing more.

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LDW says on Jun 1, 2008, 13:02:

The net impact of immigration on North America is not large, but it is huge in Europe thanks to the very low birth rates of native Europeans.

As for the like of Jean Marie Le Pen, more and more people in Europe are coming to think like he does because of racist immigrants who come to Europe, immigrants who come from dysfunctional Islamic societies,and then expect Europeans to adapt to them.

And the immigrants who do come to Europe are truly racist!!. They look upon non Muslim European women as whores, and muslim immigrants as a result of that make up more than 80% of the convicted rapists in Europe. They also take up a highly disproportionate share of European welfare budgets, for which I blame the stupidity of the lib left Euros themselves.

None of this is surprising, since women are clearly second class according to Islamic beliefs, and their god says that rape of non Muslim (captives) women is OK. Also, it is deeply ingrained in Islamic law that non muslims are to be subservient to Muslims, which is why it is no surprise that so many muslims (many of whom will not even take the trouble to learn the language of their host country) take up European welfare rolls There is an increasingly popular movement afoot in the Netherlands, for example, to stop immigration of muslims completely.

The situation in North America is different. In spite of language differences and a different way of life, latino immigrants have historically been more prepared to adapt to realities here, and most come to really work and better their lives (and many, as pointed out in this thread return home after building up something of a nest egg). They do not bring a basic philosophy of life that is hostile to ours. It is different in many ways to be sure, but it is not fundamentally hostile. The likes of Dobbs cannot see that distinction, and continue to prattle the rubbish that they do.

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OneHappyBoy says on Jun 1, 2008, 13:28:

tomtom.. I can tell you by experience, working on the investigation side of illegal labor, if they are working here illegally, and they show up in the emergency room with a workman's comp claim, and the state or the insurance carrier finds out they are working under a phony SSN, they are not going to pay, BECAUSE IT IS INSURANCE FRAUD....it is like they are not working at all. The rightful owner of the SSN is working there in the eyes of the law. The employer, and employee face insurance fraud issues. Who pays, if at all, is the employer, out of pocket. Oh yea, lets not forget that they will be HIGHLY discouraged , by employers, from getting the help they need, because the last thing Joe's meat packer wants is ICE to find out and come breaking down the doors of the HR department and the production floors.

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tomtom33 says on Jun 1, 2008, 14:05:

I have a little experience in that area as well. I was an investigator for the US Dept. of Labor, Wage and Hour Division for 9 years.

You are correct about discouraging medical help. You stated that they do not have workers comp. That is not correct. And what a carrier may or may not pay is also irrelevant. The employer is liable.

I spent a bit of time in farm fields enforcing the Farm Labor Contractors Registration Act. While the life of a migrant farm laborer is not great, I can tell you that many of those migrants lived better than some of the farmers. And I found very few minimum wage violations.

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miamimike says on Jun 1, 2008, 14:29:

sanandressi says on Jun 1, 2008, 11:34: flag

Export jobs, import people (illegal immigrants). The Democrats want to give the country away and the Republicans want to sell it......take your pick?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sanandressi-what you write is not true concerning only democrats giving the country away. Remember it is not just Ted Kennedy who wanted Amnesty in 2007 but GW Bush and John McCain also who co-sponsered that Amnesty Bill for Illegals and it was defeated twice. McCain wrote Reagan's IRCA Amnesty Bill of the late 80s which was supposed to resolve the illegal problem but then Reagan didn't fund the bill after its passage and t failed as far as enforcement and the stoppage of illegals crossing into the USA. . Plenty of blame to go around on both sides of this issue.

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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goin_south says on Jun 1, 2008, 15:40:

with ...
the peso's gain in strength against the dollar, ...
the every increasing cost of living in the USA, and ...
the fragmentation/disconsolidation of FARC,...

Three good reasons to go back, and/or stay in Colombia.
Just my thoughts.

(and, then there is always that MUSHY love factor...driving it one way or the other... jej)

Ciao! Gustav. Bienvenitos, Ike.

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rocinante says on Jun 1, 2008, 17:46:

TomTom is 100% correct. The employer is 100% liable.

If I am a out on the street and I wander into the kitchen of a US restuarant and sli pand fall, the restuarant is responsible for everything (well their insurance is) as If I was an employee and I have the right to sue BIG TIME - over and above as if I was an employee.

I don't know where you people come up with some of this stuff you post.

Like this shit for instance:

"[Muslims immigrants in Europe] look upon non Muslim European women as whores, and muslim immigrants as a result of that make up more than 80% of the convicted rapists in Europe."

80% of the rapists in Europe are muslim immigrants? LDW post some sort of proof or information to back up that claim - no propoganda sources. I won't hold my breath.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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LDW says on Jun 1, 2008, 23:55:

yeah sure rocinante...I know the drill....if it doesn't meet with your preconceived ideas, it's just propaganda. I suppose you think that us white folks are responsible for all the ills in this world, and those poor muzzies are just poor little innocents who behave like darlings wherever they go. After all, we must be tolerant. We must be politically correct. If non Caucasian groups are misbehaving, we just have to shut up because we might offend them.

I suppose you think that Islam is wonderfully spiritual. After all, the prophet of islam said that when a muzzie bends over over to pray, satan will pluck hairs from his arsehole until he farts (there is actually a hadith on that on the Saudi government website...........Ministry of Islamic Affairs). That is just sooo spiritual!!!

There is plenty of evidence to support what I say. And it's not propaganda.

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=08C88AE6-74B3-4627-B42...

Here is an excerpt from that article, where one of your muzzie pals is quoted:

"It is not as wrong raping a Swedish girl as raping an Arab girl," says Hamid. "The Swedish girl gets a lot of help afterwards, and she had probably fucked before, anyway. But the Arab girl will get problems with her family. For her, being raped is a source of shame. It is important that she retains her virginity until she marries." It was no coincidence that it was a Swedish girl that was gang raped in Rissne ? this becomes obvious from the discussion with Ali, Hamid, Abdallah and Richard. All four have disparaging views on Swedish girls, and think this attitude is common among young men with immigrant background. "It is far too easy to get a Swedish whore?? girl, I mean;" says Hamid, and laughs over his own choice of words. "Many immigrant boys have Swedish girlfriends when they are teenagers. But when they get married, they get a proper woman from their own culture who has never been with a boy. That?s what I am going to do. I don?t have too much respect for Swedish girls. I guess you can say they get fucked to pieces."


The following links tie into articles from reputable Swedish newspapers. I suppose for you they are just propaganda.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/003131.php


This is from the Times in the UK

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3295487.ece

I suppose you wouldn't trust anything from a Jews..........but consider this:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0802/steyn1.asp

All sorts of links here......and they are not propaganda...............

http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/757-Pan-European-Arab-Muslim-Gang...

This from the Copenhagen Post. An Islamic mufti in Copenhagen has sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are "asking for rape."

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/82118.html


Rocinante....what I said is not shit. And the sources noted above are from reliable news outlets.

But then................maybe you have some sources that say otherwise???............If you do, let's see them.

To simply reply reply with some kind of hoity toity condescending remark dismissing the souces doesn't cut it. Present some sources of your own that indicate otherwise.

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rocinante says on Jun 2, 2008, 06:54:

LDW - Although you gave it a shot with your anti muslim, pro Isreal links (the single credible news source is a story about a single muslim family - what's that about? Where's the 80% there?)...

I still ask you how you can support your statement: "...muslim immigrants as a result of that make up more than 80% of the convicted rapists in Europe. "

That says 80% of all CONVICTED rapists in EUROPE are muslim.

Please address the pointed question with a pointed answer please, save the barrage of realted Anti Muslim links please. A credible news source that has been printing a paper for more than 50 years? Maybe something in Wikipedia?

You can't.

Here is why your "80% convicted rapists in Europe are muslim" is false. Here is why your claim is the same type of claim as those late night infomercials claiming a "CURE FOR BALDNESS!". If it were true or could be substantiated it would be on the front page of Time Magazine, and not just on some late night infomercial or some Pro Israel/Anti Islamic websites. In light of everything going on lately this would be headline news, an accepted number and common knowledge, not swept under the carpet, only to be reported by propoganda websites slamming European leftists with National Enquirer grandeur.

Makes sense? Of course it does.

If ALL muslims believe what you posted about rape and women and such, and there are hundreds of thousands of muslims in many major western cities, there should be thousands of rapes every night against western women in these cities, yes? Do the numbers. But there isn't. Why? Because you are talking about extremists and citing anti muslim pro Israel websites for your numbers. I looked it up and even found "85% Convicted Rapsist in Europe are Muslims". Somebody upped it on you by 5%! The same verbatim quote! Your 80% shows up verbaitim on every google search word for word, as if one peron wrote it and everyone spread it around, cut and paste - like those chain emails about "Bill Gates giving away his fortune if you forward this email". One of the websites even footnoted a lawyer's name. She doesn't really exist except in this exact quote. Look it up. Ann Christine something or other.

Notice I am only addresing one point. Can you do the same? I don't need to hear about a muslim family or some extremist's interpretation at a speech in Australia. You have nothing from a credible source addressing the 80% of European convicted rape cases are muslim. Your argument is pretty weak.

Don't tell me - the mass media is covering up muslim crimes and as a result only the anti muslim websites are reporting it!

"80% convicted rapists in Europe are muslim"

You're on and don't forget to forward that email so you can collect part of Bill Gates' fortune. The clock is ticking.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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LDW says on Jun 2, 2008, 08:54:

Well……rocinante…that was a lot of verbiage of yours, and as usual, it said nothing. I kinda figured you would dismiss the sources as “unreliable", while at the same time not providing a single source of your own.

From that article on Sweden…..

“The number of rape charges in Sweden has tripled in just above twenty years. Rape cases involving children under the age of 15 are six - 6 - times as common today as they were a generation ago"

“Most other kinds of violent crime have rapidly increased, too. Instability is spreading to most urban and suburban areas"

Guess what. All this has happened during a period of rapid muslim immigration. Oh, sorry, I forgot. Those sources are not reliable, because you don’t like what they say.

Here’s more:

“Lawyer Ann Christine Hjelm, who has investigated violent crimes in Svea high court, found that 85 per cent of the convicted rapists were born on foreign soil or by foreign parents". Guess what: the great majority (i.e., almost all) are muslim.

Last time I checked, 85% is greater than 80%. What “reliable" sources do you have?

Norway’s Aftenposten (Norway’s premier newspaper……….but I guess in your book, that’s not “reliable".......maybe it's owned by the Jooooos!!!!) quotes that 65% of rapes in Oslo are committed by foreigners. Guess what. Most of those foreigners (i.e. almost all) are muslim. Sorry for not meeting the 80% target in Norway. I am sure that makes you feel better. I am sure that reassures you that muslims are nice people who respect women.

Here is the Aftenposten link.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article1662801.ece

I knew you would dismiss Jewish sources (but I am still waiting for your sources). I guess it bothers you that a billion muslims are too retarded to defeat a few million Jews. Of course, you would blame the good old USofA for that, even though those muzzies are supposed to have their allah guy helping them.

I knew it. All the world’s problems are the fault of us white folks in the USofA and the Jooooos.

France:
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/reforislam.htm

FRANCE: 1945 there were 100,000 Muslims in France, today it is officially claimed to be 6 million (60 x increase), 10% of population. But Muslims make up 70% of France’s convicted criminals in prison. Of the 1,000 Muslim neighbourhoods in France, 700 are listed as “violent", 400 “very violent". There are 1,000 mosques in France.

In France 95% of convicted rapists are Muslims, 85% of convicted murderers are Muslims, and 58% of convicted thieves are Muslims.

Last time I checked, 95% was greater than 80%. Gee whiz…..that’s a Christian website. I suppose you dismiss their information just like you dismiss the Joooooooos. If that is your stance, then PROVIDE SOURCES THAT YOU APPROVE OF THAT SAY DIFFERENTLY.

Same source…Italy…………..

ITALY: 1 million Muslims (In Italy Muslims make up 95% of all convicted rapists and 85% of all convicted murderers.)

Don’t worry rocinante. I know the drill. You could be presented with sources until the cows come home, but if they contain information you don’t like, they are “unreliable".

Hoity toity dismissals like that don’t cut it. PRESENT SOME SOURCES (that say otherwise) THAT YOU APPROVE OF!!!

I have not seen a shred of evidence from you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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rocinante says on Jun 2, 2008, 09:22:

What part of Newspaper that's been in print for more than 50 years is so confusing?

Your source "http://www.frontline.org.za"

Why does your source mention ISLAM on its front page with the tag line "Slavery, Terrorism and Islam - The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat " ?

Doesn't sound like a news organization to me. Sounds like they might be a bit baised, no?

"Don’t worry rocinante. I know the drill. You could be presented with sources until the cows come home, but if they contain information you don’t like, they are “unreliable". "

"I knew you would dismiss Jewish sources (but I am still waiting for your sources)."

"PRESENT SOME SOURCES (that say otherwise) THAT YOU APPROVE OF!!!"

I didn't make an assinie claim trying to pass it off as news. Why should I back anything up? Present my sources? I need sources for what? This is about your empty claim you read from your National Enquirer website. Now you are bringing up why the Muslims have not defeated Israel in a war and saying I probably blame the jooooos and the US?

You can't even stay on topic and you can't even find one news source to back YOUR claim. N-E-W-S source. There I spelled it. FOX, MSN, CNBC, FNN, CNN, even a major network like ABC CBS, NBC, papers like LA Times, Chicago Tribune, NYT, Boston Globe, Washington Post, or a magazine like World Report, Time, Newsweek, National Geographic - do I have to go on?

Why is it that NONE of these 20 sources I listed above are privy to the truth extolled by your source: http://www.frontline.org.za

The women of the entire world are being raped by one group and only frontline.org.za knows abouty it? I can't stop laughing. At you.

And there you have it. Another crackpot who thinks the National Inquirer and Anti Semitic websites are relaible sources for News and statistics. Welcome to Fantasy Land.

Back up your claim and I'll back up mine - wait, I'm not making a claim. Not that you'd understand it if I did.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on Jun 2, 2008, 09:38:

http://www.jihadwatch.org and it's sister site http://frontpagemagazine.com/

All these sites talk about is Muslims and Zion. Are these News Sites?

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/
http://www.frontline.org.za

Or do you just think that maybe they are a wee bit biased? Wether it's Christian or Jewsih or Bhuddist means little. How about a NEWS site that actually has been around and prints something? Got one of those?

For the record I don't give a shit about Muslims or Jews and if I could press a button and make them all disappear I would. You can send my Nobel prize to Rocinante at KillEmAllAndBeDoneWithIt.com

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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LDW says on Jun 2, 2008, 10:23:

"Why should I back anything up? Present my sources? I need sources for what? This is about your empty claim you read from your National Enquirer website."

(1) National Enquirer was never quoted.

(2) "Why should I back anything up? Present my sources? I need sources for what?"...................How about showing us ANYTHING at all that refutes what I say? You have shown NOTHING!!! Maybe you have some Islamic sources? Maybe they are not "biased"?

I guess Aftenposten, Norway's premier newspaper, does not constitute "news".

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

Of course the sources are I used are biased!! There is NO SUCH THING as an unbiased source for ANYTHING!!

The Copenhagen Post is not news???

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/82118.html

Lots of links here to European newspapers:

http://forum.stirpes.net/europe-news/11584-pan-european-arab-muslim-ga...

I still have not seen any links from you!!!

Bottom line: There is plenty of evidence that muslims stir up shit wherever they go, and not just from rape. So many of them want out of their Porkistans/Shitholeistans to come to the Kafir infidel west, and then too many of them continue to behave in ways that make their home countries such dysfunctional shitholes in the first place.

Maybe none of that bothers you. For the record, it bothers me. Your reaction has been to write a lot of meaningless verbiage and offer NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER (and....for the record, I would be reassured about Europe's situation if there was such evidence...............ANYWHERE!!!....so please give me some!!) that the situation might be otherwise, while haughtily dismissing sources that you don't like!!!

I suspect we would agree on one point. Colombia, for retirement at least, would be a preferable alternative to Eurabia. The Spanish had the good sense to kick the Moors out in 1492 before they started settling this side of the pond.

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adrimm says on Jun 2, 2008, 10:32:

Rubz, I think you are spot on aboutmore Colombians going elsewhere within South America, smart.

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morphus says on Jun 2, 2008, 10:36:

Thats if the other countries in South America will have them.

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jun 2, 2008, 11:31:

From the article in the original post:

A recent survey of Latin American immigrants by the Inter-American Development Bank highlights their malaise: 81 percent said it was more difficult now than a year ago to get a well-paying U.S. job. More than a quarter said they were considering going home in the next few years.
-----------------------

With Colombian Luis Alberto Moreno heading the IADB, I am sure the survey is of the highest quality. ;-)

I would have expected the number of those thinking about leaving to be higher than 25%. It must not be so bad in the US or things are really bad where the people come from. And if only 25% are thinking about leaving, the percentage of those who actually follow through is going to be far, far smaller.

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sanandressi says on Jun 2, 2008, 12:00:

AMERICA UNITED STATES has been and is being sold out by Republican CEOS who want the quick buck with cheap labor and the DEMOCCRATS want to close our factories because they pollute.

In China and India and Colombia you can use cheaper labor and you can pollute more easily. The immigrants are only going home IF they have something to return too. Sorry but I do not agree with the article. Mexico now has 47 consulates in the US catering to their illegals. Boise? Seattle? Ohio? It used to be only New York, Miami, LA and Chicago.

Our US politicans do nothing save for a few REUBLICANS and 1 DEMOCRAT! ILLEGALS have more rights than we do! If speak out we are called racists! We just want the LAW enforced. Something Uribe is doing in Colombia?

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rocinante says on Jun 2, 2008, 12:07:

Sorry But I need it spelled out. I am not doing your homework for you.

Your claim, "muslim immigrants...make up more than 80% of the convicted rapists in Europe"

LDW Your links? Not one addresses the topic and one is a freakin blog.

"Of the 111 charged with rape in Oslo last year, 72 were of non-western ethnic origin, 25 are classified as Norwegian or western and 14 are listed as unknown." http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

The word Muslim is never mentioned. The word Europe is never mentioned. Oslo is one town. Should I quote you again mentioning Europe and Muslims? I don't think that's necessary

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/82118.html

A muslim extremist makes horrific remarks. Thanks for wasting my time. Where is the 80% of convicted Rapists in Europe are Muslims?

http://forum.stirpes.net/europe-news/11584-pan-european-arab-muslim-ga...

This is a biased blog not a news source.

The rest of your post continues to adress other topics - I didn't read it as I will not be baited to another topic of responsibilities while you continue to shirk yours.

When you are capable of quoting a valid news source (cut and paste the quote and provide the link) that supports your comment "over 80% of convicted Rapists in Europe are Muslim Immigrants" we can continue from there.

Quite good at changing the subject when asked to provide a little proof, eh?

Your credibility just gets lower and lower the more you post.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on Jun 2, 2008, 12:08:

LDW - Anatomy of supporting your claim:

Here's what to do:

You make a statment, and when necessary you back it up with a quote cut and pasted into a post, supporting your claim, and provide a link to that reputable news source.

It's that easy!

An example:

------------------------------------------

I don't think that the Colombia Central bank's decision in the article "Colombia Strengthens Capital Controls to Stem Peso Appreciation" will really do much.

Here is a quote from the article: "A year ago, the government imposed capital controls on foreign portfolio investment in a bid to stop the peso's appreciation. In spite of the measure, the peso gained 11% against the dollar in 2007." By Diana Delgado, Dow Jones Newswires May 30, 2008

http://www.fxstreet.com/news/forex-news/article.aspx?StoryId=65f0af80-...


--------------------------------------------

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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LDW says on Jun 2, 2008, 16:03:

"Sorry But I need it spelled out. I am not doing your homework for you. Your claim, "muslim immigrants...make up more than 80% of the convicted rapists in Europe" LDW Your links? Not one addresses the topic and one is a freakin blog."
_______________________________________________________________________

Actually, they did address the issue, especially the ones about Sweden and Norway. What sources do you have to prove the blogs wrong? You have provided NONE!!! Anyhow, the blogs had links to news sources. I suppose to you they are "unreliable", most probably because you don't like what they say.
_________________________________________________________________________

"Of the 111 charged with rape in Oslo last year, 72 were of non-western ethnic origin, 25 are classified as Norwegian or western and 14 are listed as unknown." http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece"

The word Muslim is never mentioned. The word Europe is never mentioned. Oslo is one town. Should I quote you again mentioning Europe and Muslims? I don't think that's necessary

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/82118.html"

______________________________________________________________________

yes.....and rest assured, they were mostly muslim. It is a fact that the incidence of rape has gone up since the increase in muslim immigration to those countries. Yes, Oslo is one town (a city actually), and it is where most muslims in Norway congregate. I posted some reliable stuff about Malmo in Sweden too, which is where muslims in Sweden mostly congregate. And it's muslims who are causing all the shit going down in that city.
_______________________________________________________________________

"A muslim extremist makes horrific remarks. Thanks for wasting my time. Where is the 80% of convicted Rapists in Europe are Muslims?"

Actually, hat guy was just being a good muslim. Maybe you can show me a "muslim" who has spoken out against that??? Do you think that when some asshole cleric speaks like that there is no connection with the way muslims are behaving?
________________________________________________________________

"http://forum.stirpes.net/europe-news/11584-pan-european-arab-muslim-ga....

This is a biased blog not a news source. "
__________________________________________________________________

Prove the blog wrong!!!! Anyhow, the blog had links to news sources.
______________________________________________________________________

"The rest of your post continues to adress other topics - I didn't read it as I will not be baited to another topic of responsibilities while you continue to shirk yours."

You shirk your responsibilities. You dismiss anything that you don't like as "unreliable", as if you are the ulimate authority on what constitutes a source, without providing a single source of your own. So bloody pretentious!!!. The topics were related. They all point to how muslims immigrants are behaving in Europe.

___________________________________________________________________________

"When you are capable of quoting a valid news source (cut and paste the quote and provide the link) that supports your comment "over 80% of convicted Rapists in Europe are Muslim Immigrants" we can continue from there."

Valid according to whom? You? I did provide sources, and you go into a rant, even though you have NONE of your own. NONE!!!. The one about Sweden is a reliable source. But to you it obviously wouldn't matter anyway. You would simply dismiss them as "unreliable" (according to whose definition??.....yours???)

__________________________________________________________________

"Quite good at changing the subject when asked to provide a little proof, eh?

Your credibility just gets lower and lower the more you post."
__________________________________________________________________________
Your pretty good at calling other people's stuff "shit" without being able to support anything you say at all. Actually...your credibility goes down, because you dismiss everything that is said as "unreliable" and "shit", without providing a single solitary source of your own.

Why don't you stop being in denial and being so condescending? Anything that pisses in your cornflakes is "biased", and "unreliable" . Prove it!!!

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aztec says on Jun 2, 2008, 16:58:

'sanandressi says on Jun 2, 2008, 12:00: flag

AMERICA UNITED STATES has been and is being sold out by Republican CEOS "

B.S.!!!!!!!!!!

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rocinante says on Jun 2, 2008, 18:20:

"yes.....and rest assured, they were mostly muslim." - can I quote you an that one too?

Rest assured? Because you say so? Well there's all the proof I need! Gee why didn't you just come right out earlier and assure me like that? It would have saved me from typing all this.

I have nothing to prove. I am not yapping crap. I don't care how muslims are behaving in Europe. All I care about is someone making empty claims and throwing out empty statistics with nary a shred of proof. (Psst - that would be you).

Because you make a crazy statement I have to go out and search the NY times to find an article written on the % breakdown of convicted rapists in Europe and until I do you are correct?

Yeah right!

So until you can substiantiate a news link that agrees that "More than 80% of convicted rapists in Europe are muslim" or even "A majority", I really can't believe a word you post. I'll accept Oslo on your plea of "rest assured" as a token of compromise.

BUT, LDW, even a mjority, and not over 80% as you claim, is a pretty bold statement that is EXTREMELY newsworthy, yes? That's not just some backburner statistic that is swept under the carpet, right? WIth all the pro Israel journalists in the US not one of them has siezed upon this horrific stat and got it to print in the Washington post, or Time or CNN or the LA Times....

Let's be honest here, huh - you gotta cure for baldness? I bet you do and It's only on infomercials on TV after midnight. Time magazine and Medical journals don't know about this yet. Only hair websites have these major breakthroughs.

But sufice it to say you still can't substiantate the "fact" that 80% of all conviceted rapists in Europe are muslim."

This statement is so laughable - I can't stop typing it. Anybody else reading this entertainment please try and find stat somewhere in the news. Trust me, Fox News, the Associated Press, the BBC and the NY Times would be all over this if it weren't so ridiculous. Suprising that only you and a few anti muslim websites mention this and no news sites do? (I'm talking about the part where you write that over 80% of all convicetd rapists in Eurpore are Muslim) Why is this piece of HUGE news so secret? I listed 20 news resources in this and prior posts. Not one of them is privy to your claim.

Why LDW - if you have no proof about the "over 80% of all convicted Rapists in Europe are muslim" can you "rest assure me" as to why no major News source has the connections?

I was wrong - Your logic is not weak, it's non existent, which is why no one but stupid me is confronting you on this. The rest here already probably already think your claim (80%) is hysterical and have moved on. My mistake.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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LDW says on Jun 3, 2008, 09:22:

Here we go again:
(1)Your arrogant pretensions about being some sort of ultimate guru as what constitutes a “reliable"? news source.
(a)Who made you that guru?
(b)Maybe you have a link somewhere that establishes you as that guru?
(c)What proof do you have that the ones I mention are not “reliable"??
(d)The ones you mention (FOX, CNN, for example, were some of the same one’s who bought into GWB’s story about WMD in Iraq and/or failed to alert their listeners to the fact that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. Talk about errors of omission!! Talk about lack of reliability!!! Why weren’t your “reliable"? news outlets all over that??
(2)You claimed that my statement was “shit"?. Prove it. I presented my sources. You claim them to be “unreliable"? (a nice escape when you have absolutely nothing of your own). If you are going to make the categorical statement that what somebody else says is wrong, then present proof. You have not done that.
___________________________________________________________________

Of course that kind of stuff is going to be on anti-muslim websites. Can you show a “pro-muslim"? website that says differently? If muzzies want to prevent a tarnishing of their image, you would think they would take pains to correct it. But they have not. Instead, we see clerics of theirs blaming the women, saying that they are asking for rape. Apparently you see no connection there.

And of course, the very fact that the incidence of rape in Europe has skyrocketed coincidentally with muslim immigration has no relevance to you either.

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=08C88AE6-74B3-4627-B42...

The writer is a Norwegian journalist named Fjordman., but I guess he is “unreliable", you being the ultimate guru on that issue.

Quote:

"According to a new study from the Crime Prevention Council, Brå, it is four times more likely that a known rapist is born abroad, compared to persons born in Sweden. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects. According to these statistics, almost half of all perpetrators are immigrants. In Norway and Denmark, we know that non-Western immigrants, which frequently means Muslims, are grossly overrepresented on rape statistics. In Oslo, Norway, immigrants were involved in two out of three rape charges in 2001. The numbers in Denmark were the same, and even higher in the city of Copenhagen with three out of four rape charges. Sweden has a larger immigrant, including Muslim, population than any other country in northern Europe. The numbers there are likely to be at least as bad as with its Scandinavian neighbors. The actual number is thus probably even higher than what the authorities are reporting now, as it doesn't include second generation immigrants. Lawyer Ann Christine Hjelm, who has investigated violent crimes in Svea high court, found that 85 per cent of the convicted rapists were born on foreign soil or by foreign parents"
____________________________________________________________________
And of course, if anything is written by the Jooos, it is, automatically, in your book,unreliable.
__________________________________________________________________

We had a similar discussion about the KKKoran (verse 4:24….and its permission to muslim men to rape women) several months ago on this forum. You reacted the same way. You made disparaging remarks about what I said. Obviously you didn’t like what I said. Well, if there is information out there you don’t like, it really sucks to be you. You made the same sorts of claims, that the interpretations I gave were “wrong"? (and as was the case this time, you were not able to present any “authoritative interpretation" of your own), or “unreliable"?. When I presented sources, they were “unreliable". Of course, my sources given at that time were Islamic sources themselves (Tafsirs and Hadith). The interpretations I gave were Islamic interpretations, and not mine. It took several exchanges on this forum for you to even clue into that, a sure sign of your phony intellectual pretensions. You apparently didn’t even know what a Tafsir was, but you still made the arrogant claim that they were unreliable. You are a complete phony.
__________________________________________________________________

Rocinante….you are all foam and no beer. Your response to information you don't like has been to be condescending and pretentious (the ultimate authority on what is “reliable"??????). That is the most reliable indication anywhere of somebody who cannot present any substance to his side of the conversation. Sources could be presented to you until hell freezes over, but oh no!! You are the world’s ultimate authority on reliability.

Everyone must defer to your judgment on what is “reliable"??? People can decide for themselves what they find reliable. They sure as hell don’t need your permission!! No more than what permission the naysayers (before Bush’s adventure into Iraq in 2003) needed to see through the lack of substance in your “reliable" news services who failed to make sufficient copy (in the judgment of many, including me) of the fact that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.

And in being that self-appointed authority, you take the arrogant position that you need not present a single one of your own (both in this current discussion, and in the one several months ago) to establish your side of the story……..but I don’t blame you for that. There are NONE!!

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rocinante says on Jun 3, 2008, 11:44:

"And of course, the very fact that the incidence(sic) of rape in Europe has skyrocketed coincidentally with muslim immigration has no relevance to you either."

A tangent. Why can't you stay on topic and keep the smokescreens to another thread? Face it your 80% claim is bogus.

I have no side of the story - I have told you 3 times. You are making a claim that you can't substantiate. That in itself IS my side of the story. Not one major news organization (I listed over 20 surely there are many more) has your information. That IS my proof. Find it reported by one major news organization how 80% of all convicted rapists in Europe are Muslim and I'll buy YOU a beer to go with your empty SUDS.

You can't.

The Pope said 'God Doesn't Really Exist' and that he now believes in Space Aliens. He's throwing away his bible. There's my claim, "http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=64184" If you say I'm a crackpot I'll say "Prove it" - Read my link - it's relaible. Even though the pope didn't say he was going to throw away his bible "Rest Assured" that that's what he's doing.

But back to ther muslims raping all the women in europe...

Why are the ALL major news publications holding back on that important information about the muslim rapists and now the pope? "Muslims are invading Europe and raping all the women" sounds like a strong headline to me. That would sell a lot of news papers and magazines. If I'm a writer who is pro Israel and anti Muslim (gotta be a few of those, no?) I get that published. There must be some major Western News Source willing to gamble with the 'truth', yes?

Why oh Why LDW in your infinite wisdom, does not a single major news organization mention this huge information? Government coverup or do muslims control western major media and are having this covered up? Maybe the Pope is behind this - and we all know who is behind him - space aliens of course - the link says so. "Rest assured".

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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huskie says on Jun 4, 2008, 05:52:

IMHO, a lot of the immigration problems to western Europe is due to migration from Eastern Europe, Romanians, Bulgarians, Asian countries: Afghans, Pakistanis,and others from African Countries. Italy, Spain, France, Greece and many other countries are dealing with these problems as of right now, and trying to send them home, but there is a lot of opposition from Human Rights Groups. They are not necessarily muslim.
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

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rocinante says on Jun 4, 2008, 05:54:

A really good German friend of my is constantly complaining about the Polish coming in droves - so you are right there Huskie.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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gatogris says on Jun 4, 2008, 09:44:

Several large-N research design scholarly studies published in the past couple of years indicate that the increasing presence of Muslim immigrants has lowered crime rates and stabilized social indicators among poorer sectors of the population such as amount of time spent among family and school attendence.

ips.sagepub.com/cgi/content/refs/25/1/97

www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1540-5907.2006.00227.x

www.palgrave-journals.com/cep/journal/v5/n3/full/6110099a.html

www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/soth/2005/00000023/00000002/art0000...

Apparently, the overwhelming majority of Muslim immigrants to Western Europe tend to be orientated towards what in the U.S. are referred to as 'family values' - meaning they place a high priority on traditions, ethical and religious imperatives, and the stability of family life. Rates of divorce, child runaways, percentage of unemployed who are not actively seeking employement, and even voter apathy (which I found surprising) are remarkably low in the communties which participated in these studies compared to national averages in France, Germany and Sweden.

In other words, the actual numerative data emerging from these communties suggests that Muslim immigrants are by many measures 'better' citizens, at least according to current standards, then their 'native' counterparts, suggesting that these countries should loosen immigration restrictions dramatically.

As far as more qualitative evidence goes, contemporary French social historian Christophe Charle argues that, in the long term, as immeditae social frictions taper off, the influx of Muslim immigrants to France will provide a revivifying injection of energy while at the same time returning France to a balance with its own conservative traditions.

muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_social_history/v037/37.1charle.html

His German counterpart, Klaus Burkhardt, concurs about the situation in Germany.

links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0042-062X(197623)9:22.0.CO;2-B

As far the claim about 80% of European rapists being Muslim, no one should take that seriously. Its meant to be funny, but obviously is kind of a clunker as far as jokes go.

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gatogris says on Jun 4, 2008, 09:56:

Interestingly enough, corresponding results can be found for studies of Latino immigrants in the US.

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Chriscan says on Jun 5, 2008, 13:32:

One thing that Latinos have to deal with is a big drop in their class status too.

************* WARNING ************* my words often come from my ass

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