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More combine medicine with pleasure on Colombian vacations

Posted on Thu, Mar. 10, 2005

More combine medicine with pleasure on Colombian vacations

BY RUTH MORRIS

South Florida Sun-Sentinel

BOGOTA, Colombia - (KRT) - While Orlando Gonzalez visits his native Colombia, he will bask in the warmth of friends, and get his eyes checked. He will stop by the sauna at his favorite country club, breathe the stinging scent of eucalyptus branches, and get his teeth cleaned. He will watch his daughter, a skilled golfer, tee off on their old green, and then take her to have her tonsils removed.

"The health system in Colombia is very good, very human," said Gonzalez, a real-estate developer based in Pembroke Pines, Fla., explaining his decision to sprinkle medical appointments into a vacation otherwise characterized by leisure. "In the States ... it's in shambles. The only concern is the almighty dollar."

The doctor's office often is to a Colombian vacation as Graceland is to a holiday in Memphis, Tenn. Like Gonzalez, many Colombians who live in the United States travel back to their dangerous and war-weary country for medical treatment, citing bargain prices and a more relaxed bedside manner. Patients flock to other Latin American countries too, especially for plastic surgery, but Colombia is regarded as having a particularly sound health sector for those who are not gravely ill and can afford private treatment.

The trend runs counter to the perception of undocumented and uninsured immigrants running up costs at U.S. clinics and public hospitals. But it also underscores surging health insurance premiums in the United States that have pushed millions of citizens and immigrants off insurance company rosters.

The result is an army of Colombians stacking up their holiday calendars with fertility treatments, dental work or refractive eye surgery - procedures excluded from or only partially covered by health plans in the United States. Others sign up for something akin to an extreme medical makeover, dipping out of one doctor's office and into another, seeking out everything from obesity-busting gastric bypass surgery to perkier breasts to herbal remedies. And as word spreads, even non-Colombians are finding their way to Bogota's upscale clinics.

Gonzalez and his wife pay privately for basic health insurance in the United States, which assures them of emergency care. For smaller complaints, they find the money they save in Colombia easily covers the cost of their plane tickets. Gonzalez adopted this system five years ago, he said, after going to a Miami hospital emergency room for a few tests and an injection and receiving a bill for more than $2,000. Other Colombian immigrants said U.S. coverage and treatment were simply out of their reach.

One popular destination is the aquarium-adorned office of the family dentist, like the sunny quarters in an elegant northern sector of Bogota where Dr. Jorge Gomez fills cavities. U.S. insurance policies generally cover about 50 percent of dentistry costs. But with Colombia's competitive prices and an attractive dollar-to-peso exchange rate, full prices on Colombian dentistry often fall below the deductible that U.S. patients are expected to pay.

"They come for a weekend. They see their mom, they have a good time, and they visit me," said Gomez, who has 50 regular patients from overseas, as he peered into an open mouth. "It's not because they love me," he said with a chuckle. "It's about the pocketbook."

Some patients, however, say they prefer their Colombian physicians for reasons beyond economy. Robert Baron, an American choreographer based in Los Angeles, first visited Gomez while he was working on a musical in Bogota and needed some enamel work done. But it was the dentist's warmth that brought him back for orthodontic work.

"He invited me out to his family farm to have dinner, and told me to try such-and-such restaurant around the corner." Baron said. "There's a little more humanity, as opposed to our system, where it's, `Come in, ciao, you're done.'"

Dr. David Himmelstein, co-founder of the Center for National Health Program Studies at Harvard Medical School, said the medical migration must be taken against a backdrop of narrowing coverage in the United States and steady rises in premiums, and of huge profits flowing into the pockets of drug and insurance company executives.

"Our health care prices are way out of line with the rest of the world's. We have a system that costs an extraordinary amount, and delivers incredibly bad value for money," said Himmelstein, who supports a government-financed health plan in line with the Canadian model.

According to industry figures, some 85.2 million U.S. residents have spent at least some time without health insurance over the last two years, a figure equivalent to one in three Americans younger than 65, when Medicare kicks in.

Reacting to Colombians' assertion that their nation's physicians are more personable, Himmelstein added: "Poking and prodding, sticking a needle in someone. ... Almost anything you do to a patient (in the United States) is paid at a per-minute rate that is hugely out of scale with what you're paid to sit and talk to them."

Colombia's health system also cuts deep along economic lines. While high-end doctors like the ones favored by overseas patients line their walls with diplomas from U.S. and European universities, public hospitals are overcrowded and undersupplied. Some struggle just to keep sutures in stock.

An exception is the renowned Barraquer Clinic for eye care. It charges its wealthier patients extra to subsidize services for the poor. The imposing white building is named for its founder, Dr. Jose Barraquer, who pioneered the techniques that later evolved into the popular LASIK eye surgery. The procedure is not covered by insurance and can cost upwards of $2,000 an eye in Boca Raton, Fla., or $550 in Bogota. Not surprisingly, it has helped to draw thousands of foreign patients to the facility.

"Tourism has grown up around this clinic," said Cesar Navarrete, the clinic's administrator, who keeps a file of hotel brochures stacked between medical journals on a messy desk.

"Everyday I'm invited to lunch" by hotel managers, Navarrete joked. Asked if he might try to capitalize on the overseas visitors to raise more money, however, he frowned and said: "That's not what we're about."

One floor down, speaking between consultations, Barraquer's son, Dr. Jose Ignacio, elaborated.

"My father's idea was to improve the quality of life for the patients, not the surgeons," he said.

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© 2005 South Florida Sun-Sentinel.

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ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

By ColombianoX on Mar 10, 2005, 11:16 in Friendly Talkzone.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Mar 10, 2005, 11:19:

You need a vacation! this was posted three days ago ;-)

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/node/8022

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babygirl says on Mar 10, 2005, 11:21:

Well since I didn't read it the first time around I'm glad you reposted ColX..teehehehee

cheers - babygirl

Canadian Girls Kick Ass!

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ARMacleod says on Mar 10, 2005, 11:28:

Y tambien.
I also missed this first time round, don't know why, absent minded I guess.

I liked the article, it will go down well for my positive diary for my rug rat ankle biters who are going to disembowel me if I don't come up with some good news soon.

Thanks again CX

James

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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SiempreHero says on Mar 10, 2005, 11:57:

That is a way of life That post in the sun sentinal is not a surprise to anyone in South Florida. Almost everyone i know goes to Colombia or other South American countires for medical care. I will get my eyes done next trip. And completely agree that the medical delivery system in the states is just a money machine. We may have the best R&D, but for the typical person, even with great insurance, the doctors leave a lot to be desired. All other factors being equal (and they are not), just the amount of time a Colombian MD spends with the paitant vs the US MD makes a huge difference the quality of care. Here in the US, it is in and out, snap diagnosis, and bam. Pay your bill. In Colombia, the experience is much more personal and I would argue complete.

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greenday says on Mar 10, 2005, 12:06:

thanks for posting Yeah,ColombianoX, thanks for re-posting that info...I found it very interesting...not everyone lives on this board 24/7, and sometimes great info like this is missed by some.

Maybe a certain moderator needs to take a vacation from this board...

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ColombianoX says on Mar 10, 2005, 13:23:

Tinto, I always make sur Tinto,

I always make sure to scroll down and check this page before I bring an article, it's not my fault the first article dropped off into page two so quickly.

You're very welcome Babygirl, JamesVH, and Greenday.

CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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ws244 says on Mar 10, 2005, 17:19:

healthcare the colombian healthcare system is only good for Colombians who have private health care plans with companies such as Sanitas, etc.

the canadian and U.K. health care systems are a mess and inmany cases takes a year or more for a person to schedule an operation.

American illegals in the U.S. have better free healthcare than an average colonbian.

american drug companies spend more on research than the rest of the world combined.

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miamimike says on Mar 10, 2005, 20:29:

WS244 I would like to see your documentation for your claim "The canadian and UK system are a mess ect. I asked you for this when I posted This same article like 4-5 days ago but you never responded. Show me the facts! We have 1000s of Canadians here in my area of miami-ft. lauderdale and they TELL a different story then you. No one year waiting line for a Heart Attack patient, only for surgery of an elective nature and for that we have a long wait time also. Are you a Candaian BTW? And what Medical procedures have you Actually underwent in Colombia?

I think for the money payed, healthcare in Colombia is a tremendous bargain, considering the high quality of the medical care.

BTW, the post topic was about Colombians returning to Colombia for Medical Care and they will paying in Dollars so the system will be very good for them. If they are able to use their US Based Insurance as I was able to do(mail handlers, federal government)-they really get a BANG for their Buck.

Why don't you talk about the Lack of any System here in the US where 45,000,000 Americans have NO Insurance at all? Now thats a topic for discussion. I do not see that in the UK or Canada or maybe you know something the rest of us don't know. Share it with us please.

On Sept 17, 2008: Senator John McCain said, as he had many times before, that he believed the fundamentals of the economy were "strong."Hours later he backpedaled, explaining that he had meant that American workers were Strong.

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ws244 says on Mar 11, 2005, 12:28:

healthcare this website has twice dumped my response.

the original quote was how great colombian health is, and i dispute that statement as misleading. colombian healthcare is good only for the colombians that can afford it, whether in miami or colombia.

if all those canadians think their healthcare and canadian life is so great, why are thousands of them living in miami?

if i understood you correctly, and if you are on a u.s. government health insurance policy, be thankful the u.s. taxpayer is funding your health insurance 90% of the rest of us can not afford, as there are not enough taxpayers to support a government employee type health program with endless benefits.
poor colombians on colombian healthcare do not have as good a healthcare as poor americans and illegal aliens.

it takes much longer for transplant operations etc. in canada and the u.k. than in the u.s.

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ws244 says on Mar 11, 2005, 13:30:

healthcare followup if the colombian healthcare system had to follow the same regulations, entitlements, constrictions, tort litigation, as the u.s. system, for example giving 9 month old babies liver transplants at a cost of several hundred thousand dollars, colombia would be bankrupt, as would the u.k. and canada.

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miamimike says on Mar 11, 2005, 15:12:

Still no Hard Facts...ws244 Your Comment:"if i understood you correctly, and if you are on a u.s. government health insurance policy, be thankful the u.s. taxpayer is funding your health insurance 90% of the rest of us can not afford, as there are not enough taxpayers to support a government employee type health program with endless benefits."
Fact-I no longer work for the Feds, so it cannot be assumed I have this insureance as you stated.
Fact-The Federal government does NOT "Fund" 100% of any Federal employee's insurance-not even for Congress or Senators. When I left the Feds-I was paying about $150 monthly as a single employee. Net Free.

Any idea of how long the Wait Time here in the USA is for a transplant? Read YEARS in most cases, unless you a Millionaire Ball Player or Politician. If you are a average american, with or without health insurance, in all probability, you will DIE before you get your transplant.

" the colombian healthcare system had to follow the same regulations, entitlements, constrictions, tort litigation, as the u.s. system, for example giving 9 month old babies liver transplants at a cost of several hundred thousand dollars, colombia would be bankrupt, as would the u.k. and canada."

I don't buy this because the system in Colombia is not as Profit Driven as ours is here in the USA-I beleive there is more compassion with Colombian Doctors and Hospitals and this is non-existent here in the US for the most part. In Colombia, compassion is the Rule rather then the exception.Here in the US, its(compasion) the exception, rather then the Rule.

"if all those canadians think their healthcare and canadian life is so great, why are thousands of them living in miami?"

THEY (CANADIANS)are here in Miami-Ft. Lauderdale Now because its winter in their country. They winter here, as do many retired americans.They aren't here for the Healthcare-they can't stay away so long and still use their system so they return in the spring.

I woulld still like to see those FACTS susstantiating your claim that the Canadian and english systems are Bankrupt. On something this grave, there must be studies and stats attesting to that claim.

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miamimike says on Mar 11, 2005, 15:17:

But Really the post was about... Mr. Gonzalez returning to Colombia to have his medical needs met because he could not afford the costs of medical care here in the US and lack of compassion he found in the US style of medicine(read not sytem-because we have no Health care system here in the US, unless you of retirement age and are eligible for Medicare.

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daver says on Mar 11, 2005, 15:28:

In the 1980s, up to 1 mil **if all those canadians think their healthcare and canadian life is so great, why are thousands of them living in miami?**

In the 1980s, up to 1 million Canadians were living in Florida during the winter months. I would guess that 99% of them were retired, and most of those had additional health insurance. Canadians can spend up to 6 months in the USA, and do not even need a passport if the enter by car. My grandparents were 2 of them. They now winter in Canada as my grandfather cannot afford health insurance to live in Florida.

Also, many "snow birds" left because the Canadian dollar got down to $.61 USD. Now is up to $.83 so you may see a lot of pasty white elderly Canadians cloggin the Florida beaches once again.

I, for one, believe the Canadian health care system is a mess. Many Canadians buy the propoganda from our own government which insists, year after year, that we have the best health care system in the world. So, Canadians like to go down to the states and tell every American they see how much better we are then them because of our health care system. Some believe us, most don't.

I still tell everyone my experience at a dentist in Medellin. I could not believe how good this guy was, what a good job he did, and for how cheap it was. In Canada, a route canal cost almost as much as the Panama Canal.

In Canada the dental assistants do almost all the work. In Medellin, the dentist did all the work and the assistant, was a real "assistant"... basically holding things for the dentist.

Dave

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ws244 says on Mar 11, 2005, 15:33:

healthcare in any case you still have excellent insurance, and as a retired federal employee, have more and better retirement benefits, pension, than 95% of the other U.S. taxpayers working outside of government at taxpayers expense.

Canada is a sociallist democratic state, as are the european countries, and as usual bash everything about the U.S.

Still the best medical facilities in the world are in the united states, and i have yet heard of an illegal mexican being denied the best medical attention in the emergency rooms here in south texas.

Colombians in miami have health insurance with colombian healthcare companies in colombia. of course it is cheaper down there as in the rest of te world, as it is not regulated and everyone is not sue happy.

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daver says on Mar 11, 2005, 15:58:

*Canada is a sociallist democratic state*

Nope. We are a constitutional monarchy with socialist ideals. But I get your point. We are much more left wing than the US, but no quite as pink as most of Europe.

*in any case you still have excellent insurance*

I would revise that and say "in any case, we have insurance".

I am sure that we have a better healthcare than the average Colombian, but to say that Canada's healthcare system is better than the US is an argument that is very difficult to prove. And the cost are hidden... the health system is paid for by taxes, and the portion that was not, is sitting as a huge debt, that my generation will have to pay off, as we watch our healthcare system get worse and worse.

Dave

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miamimike says on Mar 11, 2005, 18:50:

?????????????????? "in any case you still have excellent insurance, and as a retired federal employee, have more and better retirement benefits, pension, than 95% of the other U.S. taxpayers working outside of government at taxpayers expense"

Who is this person?--Most of citizens(retired) were privately employed here in the US(hope you do mean me as I am not retired for one and am also not a employee of the Federal government.

Fact-as a Federal employee you only have health insurance if you continue to pay your share-just as you would have to do if you were still working.You could not be more wrong on this one. My cousin, 83 and retired from the federal government(and a WW 2 Navy Veteran)with 35 years service--receives NO SOCIAL SECURITY CHECK-NO MEDICARE BENEFITS. She has to maintain her Blue Cross/Shield--pays around $250 monthly to maintain her cooverage. Does it sound to you she is BETTER off then 95% of the other taxpayers you mention?? Reason -she did pay her 20 quarters into SS as requiered and being a Federal employee-at that time(up to the mid 80s)could not pay into SS. They payed only into the old CSRS(civil service retirement). Only non citizens-Cuban Immigrants get SSI without paying a dime in SS-and because my cousin is a american citizen born here-she is not entitled to the rights that cubans are. Strange but true.

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miamimike says on Mar 11, 2005, 19:09:

Different here in Miami for Immigrants.. Here in Miami if an immigrant does not have any insurance-they have to go Jackson Memeorial Hospital(our public trust hospital)-they are kept 3 days maximum and then are discharged with a prescription for their ailment. If they have the money,they can get it filled at the hospital's pharmacy-if no money-NO Meds.Simple. If they have an emergency such as a heart attack(or something else as grave)they are treated and they set up a payment plan to pay for their care... NOT FREE!

Myth: Colombians in Miami have health insurance in Colombia. NOT the ones I know. Many struggle to pay the rent, food, utilities ect. Maintaining their health insurance in their home country is the least of their priorities. You must be thinking of those colombian millionaires such as Shakirra(sp) bit 99.9% of the Colombian citizens are not in her Income bracket. I would like some of the colombians on this board to weigh in on this one.This is one for the "Record"

Lastly-we do NOT have a Health Care system here in the USA-only exists as such for Medicare age people.

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kernow62 says on Mar 11, 2005, 19:48:

Miamimike I believe your cousin is also a notch-year baby. These folks when they do get SS don't get enough to live on. It is a disgrace that we can spend so much on military and playing big brother or bully to the world depending on your point of view, yet we fail our citizens especially the elderly. My mother takes Plavix at $130 a month, Medicare doesn't cover many drugs so it comes out of her already reduced SS because she too is a notch-year baby. To be honest if my mother was to know what she knows now about healthcare here she would have moved back to the UK where she could at least have a visiting nurse. Again nothing high tech, just a friendly voice and hopefully a nice bedside manner. There is simply too much emphasis on over medicating in this country. Hmm let's see who profits from this. Just as oil companies love to see us driving Hummers.

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kernow62 says on Mar 11, 2005, 19:59:

ColX, here is an interesting article about Ruth Morris.

http://www.medill.northwestern.edu/inside/2003/morrisfeb20.html

Despite her ordeal she still paints a balanced fair description of Colombia, she told me she misses Bogotá very much.

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miamimike says on Mar 11, 2005, 20:38:

SS Benefits Jim-there are 1000s here in the US as my cousin who recieve no SS/medicare benefits. The simple matter is she did not have 5 years(or 20 quarters) payed into the SS system's coffers. Now you have to have 10 years(40 payed quarters). Really, as a federal employee in this era, she did NOT have that option. Federal employees, up until 1984, payed only into the CSRA(civil ervice retirement annuity) and were not entitled to SS or Medicare benefts. This changed for federal employees around '84 and a portion of their money is now taken out and diverted into SS. The system is known now as FIRS.There is no CSRA today. If someome, worked and payed into SS(the sufficient number of quarters)before federal employment or after-then they are eligible for SS and Medicare. Many are unaware of this and simply think EVERYONE here receives these benefits and it simply is not true. Google this claim for Facts and you'll see it is true. Cuban Immigrants 65 and over who immigrate here illegally ARE in fact eligible for SSI monthly payments along with Medicare, without ever having payed a DIME into the system--never having had to work ONE day in the USA, yet they still recive lifetime benefits here in the US. Legal cuban immigrants are not entitled to these same benefits. Is this a great country or what? And we have Veterans from WW2 who served their country during wartime(as my elderly cousin who was a Federal employee GS-7 level)--US citizens by birth and they recieve no SS or Medicare whatsoever. And what about those 45,000,000 Million Americans who have NO health insurance at all?

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