Missing laptops of Paramilitary leaders

Colombiareports.com says on May 27, 2008, 20:03:

The whole thing's awfully confusing. I've been on it, but it's all terribly confusing and there's a lot of stories that do not make sense. The whole thing is terribly convenient for the government though. Within a number of days the witnesses in the parapolitics scandal are extradited and impossible to be heard by the prosecution investigating parapolitics, two key witnesses of parapolitics trials were murdered (one in a prosecution safehouse) and the evidence that may have been left on the computer that could incriminate politicians disappeared and then suddenly re-appeared. Here's some chronological homework :-)

http://colombiareports.com/2008/05/16/evidence-extradited-paramilitari...

http://colombiareports.com/2008/05/19/inpec-director-responsible-for-m...

http://colombiareports.com/2008/05/21/paramilitaries-left-prison-with-...

http://colombiareports.com/2008/05/22/hard-disk-and-sim-cards-turn-up-...

http://colombiareports.com/2008/05/22/extradition-mancuso-leaves-5000-...

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juancegomez says on May 27, 2008, 20:20:

It might be worth reading a few things elsewhere as well, to compare and contrast the news coverage and specific details.

http://www.eltiempo.com/justicia/2008-05-23/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INTERIOR...
http://www.eltiempo.com/justicia/2008-05-22/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INTERIOR...

The comparison with the Reyes case is pretty close to being irrelevant though, if you consider how different each case is, "convenient" or otherwise.

Remember that the paramilitary leaders had access to many privileges while in the Colombian jails, mostly undeserved but that was clearly part of the problem, and the INPEC is hardly immune to corruption, both during their imprisonment and after the extraditions. It's also not just a matter of the government being some sort of faceless monolithic entity which acts as if it were a single giant, but you also have to consider the numerous individuals that make up the state in different positions, not to mention the political class and the security services, unfortunately.

In other words, this mess isn't simple.

Not to mention cali373, that the camp was hardly "bombed" with a WWII bomber or what have you. No, it was only bombed with a very small amount of "smart" bombs. And do you know how large that camp was (pretty big actually) and that other things survived the raid, for example (including the fact that Reyes himself apparently died because he stepped on a land mine and lost his entire foot, not due to the bombing per se as the rest of his body was mostly intact and not charred by any actual bombs)?

Colombiareports.com:

I haven't addressed you directly, so far, nor vice versa as far as I can tell, so this is as good an opportunity as any. That is, if you wish to have a conversation, or if you do not. Then at least I can say I tried to talk to you...which is good enough.

I commend you for your attempts at creating a new website for information and reports. I've found some useful reports there, but I've also seen some inaccurate details there from time to time. Like the claim that the Supreme Court was investigating Uribe, when what it did was to send information to the Accusations Commission in Congress.

Still, if you've been keeping up with the news, including those not reported on that website so far, you should know that those aren't the only or even necessarily the main witnesses, that the process was ridiculously disorganized and full of improvisations, that reparations were not coming through, and that the paramilitaries were making accusations according to their personal benefit, independently of whether they were telling all of the truth, parts of it or, not unlikely, even a few outright lies meant to taint everyone and force a "ley de punto final", as some argued, none of which had much confirmation, with the exceptions of those the Supreme Court has actually used -along with other evidences and testimonies-. And even then, if these paramilitaries want to continue their revelations, with any and all their problems, they can still have the chance to do so, if judicial cooperation materializes. And if it doesn't materialize, then Colombians here and in the U.S. should do everything possible in order to make it so, because there are mechanisms for it.

Even if you don't want to talk about it, at least you can read it. Or so I hope.

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CatGirl says on May 27, 2008, 21:29:

JuanceG - You do great a insightful work!

And ColombiaRep. thanks for your site!

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Colombiareports.com says on May 28, 2008, 05:27:

Hi Juance,

Thanks for your comment. There's time's when I'm having serious trouble understanding certain issues and there's times I simply make big ass mistakes (like most media unfortunately). Without feedback like yours there's little improvement possible. So please, anytime you an irregularity or a mistake, let me know as fast as possible, so i can correct it or at least have a discussion about it. All help, tips and criticism is welcome.

This of the Criminal Division of the Supreme Court I got from several media early May. He is being investigated for his alleged part in the Medina bribery, just as some (former) members of his cabinet. Or am I completely misunderstanding things?
http://colombiareports.com/2008/05/08/uribe-officially-investigated-fo...

Get in touch with me, I hope you will feel free to correct or criticize me as often as you can, making the reporting more credible.

Adriaan Alsema
Colombia Reports

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cali373 says on May 28, 2008, 06:42:

Just saw this this morning.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080528/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_warlord...

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on May 28, 2008, 06:55:

Well as far as FARC laptops being recovered from a jungle camp, I did not mean it as Colombia planting them there. I really do think they are authentic. I meant that it would be just a little easier to recover laptop from prisoners in a major city, than a laptop from a jungle camp in a different country.

I guess I should also consider that Colombians get meager wages and to have a few extra cash invites some corruption.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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Tinto (Moderator) says on May 28, 2008, 07:07:

Is it correct that the 14 extradited paracos were in a couple of different prisons yet cellphones, memory sticks, CDs and laptops were not collected and secured from any of them? If so, it looks like systemic ineptitude and/or systemic corruption.

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romy says on May 28, 2008, 07:55:

Juance- You are saying Uribe is not being investigated for 'parapolitica' right? because I too had seen in other media that the supreme court was investigating him for vote buying (Yidis Medina).

Adriaan- I'm really enjoying colombiareports.com because you are covering so many topics, many that major media hide in the back.

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Colombiareports.com says on May 28, 2008, 08:09:

at Tinto,

the laptops, usb-sticks and sim cards that disappeared were from paras in Itaguí prison, I believe

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juancegomez says on May 28, 2008, 12:22:

romy & Colombiareports.com:

I am saying that Uribe isn't being investigated by the Supreme Court, in part because he can't be. Just like that. If that is considered, the rest flows naturally enough.

Each judicial entity, and Colombia has quite a few, has a certain jurisdictions which determine who they can investigate and who they can judge. These can often be confusing, but in this particular case certain things are relatively clear.

While I am no lawyer, I've come to understand that much. I would invite you to check out the legal technicalities if necessary.

At present, it is the Accusations Commission of Congress (or of the House, to be more accurate) that can investigate Uribe, and there were some developments about that yesterday, I believe, in that a preliminary probe will begin.

What the Supreme Court did some time ago (May 8), that several sites initially reported as "investigating" Uribe, was to send copies of testimonies and information related to the Medina case to the Commission, which is responsible for any further probes of the officials under its own jurisdiction -including but not limited to Uribe. Documents were also sent to the Attorney General as well.

Why did the Court do that? Because it believed that the case was serious, but it must respect its jurisdiction. There are several different officials and individuals being investigated, and not all of them can be investigated by the same entity.

The Supreme Court, in itself, does not have the jurisdiction to investigate the President of the Republic. The Accusations Commission does.

I quote:

"Para el tribunal, que envió copias del proceso a la Fiscalía y a la Comisión de Acusaciones de la Cámara por los delitos en que estarían envueltos funcionarios y ex funcionarios del Gobierno, hubo compraventa de votos en trámite del proyecto.

La decisión de la Corte Suprema de compulsar copias a la Fiscalía y la Comisión de Acusaciones de la Cámara dentro del caso contra la ex representante Yidis Medina puede terminar enredando a varios altos funcionarios del gobierno del presidente Alvaro Uribe.

Si bien la Corte siguió los procedimientos normales cuando conoce denuncias contra funcionarios que no son de su competencia, en la providencia en la que ayer le negó la detención domiciliaria a Yidis, conocida en su totalidad por EL TIEMPO, deja en claro que considera que en el trámite del proyecto de reelección, a mediados del 2004, hubo compraventa de votos."

http://www.eltiempo.com/tiempoimpreso/edicionimpresa/justicia/2008-05-...

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Cali2005 says on May 28, 2008, 15:37:

The colombian government administration doesnt want any more politicians being put in jail. Hence, it was a strategic move to make them disappear. ALSO WITH THE capos-jefes-patrons in the USA they can not testify here in colombia against politicians, like Uribes Cousin, or Uribe himself. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

pretty amazing how they just decided to ship them off so quickly. it was so fast that even the US government didnt even make there usual apperances in the news.

Medellin Apartments and Tours http://www.MedellinApartments.INFO

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juancegomez says on May 28, 2008, 17:20:

Cali2005: That may be part of it, but I don't think it's all. Other people have made accusations, real or otherwise, not just or even mainly the top leaders, which have been used in the process and will have to be confirmed or dismissed by the courts or whoever else. Does "Pitirri" ring any bells? He's not even in Colombia, albeit under different circumstances, and his testimony is apparently being taken seriously in at least some cases.

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slguy says on May 28, 2008, 19:35:

i'm very curious.

if the prisons are so corrupt/inept that these assholes have possession of these devices in the first place - why in hell does anyone assume the the authorities are efficient enough to be in possession of them now? why couldn't these animals have disposed of them themselves?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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CatGirl says on May 28, 2008, 19:43:

Slgy: I am sorry to say.....my experience and gut "thingy" says. This evidence was meant to be lost. Even a child could see the problems with this arrangement. Imagine, all those cell phones, sim cards and laptops...jeje. Wonder if any were Dells? ja!

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 29, 2008, 22:25:

On a related topic;

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/05/16/colomb18870.htm

"At the same time, while we have long called for the extradition of these men, we do have concerns about the Colombian government’s motivations in doing so at this precise moment. President Uribe has said that he extradited these commanders because they were not meeting the terms of the Justice and Peace Law. In fact, during the initial period after they formally entered the “demobilization� process – some three years ago – when they were clearly refusing to meet their commitments, Uribe ignored calls for their extradition. The decision to extradite came only after some had actually started to cooperate, and others announced plans to do so, by beginning to talk to Colombian investigators about their links with Colombian military and government officials, including generals and politicians close to the president. Many Colombians suspect that Uribe sent these men now to the United States to stop them from naming more names. If this is true, the impact of the extradition is likely to be the opposite of what we all hope – instead of encouraging lower level commanders to cooperate with Colombian investigators, it will give them a powerful incentive to be silent. "

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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CatGirl says on May 29, 2008, 23:02:

Not suprised at this either. If anything, the "rumor" might be enough.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Mr. Hollywood says on May 30, 2008, 13:18:

Of course, the HRW document doesn't explain how being in US custody somehow stops the 14 paraco leaders from continuing to provide information. They're in a federal prison, not a black hole.

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CatGirl says on May 30, 2008, 13:39:

Yep.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 30, 2008, 13:54:

The attention will definitely be diverted from the more serious crime of massacres and atrocities against civilians to the minor charges of drug trafficking. A perfect way to make Uribe look like he's being in control and at the same time whisking these inconvenient capos away from Colombia and the ongoing investigations about parapolitica. Not a black hole perhaps, but put away at a safe distance and the questions they will be asked will not have anything to do with the chain saw murders, torture and death of Colombian campesinos. As always, it's the poor and the defenseless who will not get any retribution.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Mr. Hollywood says on May 30, 2008, 14:01:

Desi, I'm sorry but there were about 20,000 paramilitaries who committed those atrocities, not just 14 guys. So your logic falls apart if you're arguing that there's now nobody left to be tried for massacres and torture and all those other hideous crimes. IF the Colombian justice system works at all, those questions will be asked, regardless of 14 guys being extradited to the US (or even 140 guys). And if those crimes are not addressed, it's because of a systemic failure of Colombia's judicial system, not because of a few extraditions.

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slguy says on May 30, 2008, 14:03:

des, i still don't get what disatisfies you so much. you keep complaining about " no retribution" - but they'll serve more hard time. without their laptops, cells, all those comforts their money can buy them in colombian prisons.

again- you prefer a few years of easy time in colombia - or hard time in the US? does the charge matter so much? you want them in prison for many years, or you want them in colombia for fewer years, but a more serious charge? it sounds like to me it isn't retribution for the campesinos you want....it's some idea that these guys can do something to hurt uribe.

who cares what the charge is, if retribution for the campesinos is your true interest? prison is prison.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 30, 2008, 14:18:

Mr. Hollywood....these guys are the ones who ordered those massacres. This is the absolute top layer, the head of the monster. They may not have held the chain saw themselves but they are the ones who bear the responsibilty.

My interest? To unravel the whole scope of political corruption, including the unholy links between Mr. Uribe, his government and the Paramilitaries. The retribution and justice for the disposessed, the internal refugees, the displaced people on Colombia. Unfortunately there is no punishment provided by the legal system that could be applied to these monsters; Colombia does not have the capital punishment (and I don't approve it anyway; the extrajudicial execution is an abomination). Can't they just be exiled to a desert island with no food and fresh water to survive the rest of their days by eating lizards and raw little shrimps? No internet, no cels, no toilet paper, no fresh water?

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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slguy says on May 30, 2008, 14:44:

des....i hate to say it, but you're another "yea, but" person. nothing realistic will satisfy you.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Mr. Hollywood says on May 30, 2008, 15:03:

"Can't they just be exiled to a desert island with no food and fresh water to survive the rest of their days by eating lizards and raw little shrimps? No internet, no cels, no toilet paper, no fresh water?"

Ironically, Desi, about the closest thing to what you describe these guys will ever face is living in a high security US federal pen. Surely that wasn't what was happening to them in Colombia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermax

By the way, I never said the cabecillas of the AUC weren't the ones responsible, I just pointed out that your logic is fallacious: Investigations into parapolitica or human rights abuses will not stop because of their deportation, nor will they be muzzled.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 30, 2008, 15:44:

Nah, Hollywood, that's too good a life for them. It'll probably be sloppy joes and gelato every other day.

Slguy, nothing realistic? What do you mean?
Is Colombia then condemned for all eternity to have corrupt politicians, an authoritarian neoliberal president with shady connections and direct hotline to Washington, impunity for atrocious crimes and a political system of clientelism and patronage typical of a true third world nation?
No hope for anything better, eh?

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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slguy says on May 30, 2008, 16:19:

who's talking about eternity? we're talking about today's reality, des. whether or not you like it, two things are true today.

1. the auc assholes will do far more, and far tougher, time here than in colombia.

2. the president of colombia you so dislike is incredibly popular with the colombian people. get over it. ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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