Minimum salary in Colombia?

ARMacleod says on Jan 1, 2005, 08:52:

Are you sure? I feel that you may have picked that figure wrong. However, if not. If she speaks reasonable English, she could easily get a job as a guide, translator or similar. Has she tried to find another job?

I can assure you that I would have paid that as a hourly figure before I met my other half who is Colombiano.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 1, 2005, 09:06:

it's above the minimum wages, yet low.Yes, I'd say it's about average for salespeople. They often have rather low basic salaries plus get a percentage on the sales they make.
I'm sure that she is a hard worker and speaks good English and is worth much more than that dingy salary. However, jobs are not easy to come by, with all the unemployed and underemployed people the wages remain low.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Miguel says on Jan 1, 2005, 09:17:

Seems a bit low Low as below the legal minimum wage that goes into effect today if, for discussion's sake, she makes 15k daily and works 6 days a week, based on an exchange rate of 2400 cp to 1 usd. She also could be entitled to the transportation subsidy. Go the the economic section of El Tiempo and you'll find both news reports and the official legal document.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 1, 2005, 09:49:

yes, it's low, however, legal "ARTÍCULO 1°.- A partir del primero (1°) de enero del año 2005 regirá como Salario Mínimo Legal Mensual para los trabajadores de los sectores urbano y rural, la suma de TRESCIENTOS OCHENTA Y UN MIL QUINIENTOS PESOS ($381.500,oo) moneda corriente."

15000 pesos per day makes a mothly salary of 450 000, a bit over the legal minimum wage. This is considering that she has a monthly wage.

She might qualify for the transport subsidiary, though, as you said.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Miguel says on Jan 1, 2005, 09:57:

Thanks, Desi There are variables, indeed. Is she considerd full time? Does she receive health benefits, etc. And if she is a good vendedora working on commission, who cares about the minimum wage?

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 1, 2005, 11:11:

certainly full-time If she works 10-11 hours per day six days a week I'd call that fulltime. I believe full-time in Colombia is 40hrs/weekly, the same as in many other countries. There's a document called "El Código del trabajo" that regulates the rights and the responsibilities of both employers and employees. The labor laws are slightly different for differen-size companies and employers. There's a subsidy called "prima" that is equivalent either 15 days of wages or a month's wages paid twice a year, usually in June and December. The yearly vacations are 2 weeks. A termination subsidy (la cesantía) is paid if you become unemplyed or your contract is over. It varies in size and depends on how many years you have worked for that employer.
About health benefits I don't know a lot. I know that every employer with more than three employees has to register them at Seguro Social and pay monthly quotas. The health services provided by Seguro Social are under all critique, though, and I've understood that many people have private health plans now, but whether they are included in the work benefits or not, I don't know. I'd suspect that at least in some companies they may be part of the package.

Sales personnel is generally hugely underpaid and exploited in Colombia. It's not just that they work long hours and make very little, but also they have to look at their best at all times and spend often more than half of their salaries for their outfits, shoes, accessories, hairdressers, beauty treatments in general. They have to be friendly and positive all the time, the weariness they're feeling or hurting feet in high heels are not allowed to show either on their faces or their attitudes towards the customers. Sometimes I think that I'd rather be a maid than a salesgirl in Colombia.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 1, 2005, 16:27:

Options are Few Wheter we like to admit it or not, Colombian borders on being a third world economy. It is an economy where so much of the wealth is concentrated in very few people. While Amricans or others go to Colombian for many reasons; to teach English, learn a language, experience a new culture, etc, etc,...I don't know anyone who goes to Colombia looking to get rich, or for economic gain. That's just not the case. Look, 100's of thousands of people every year go to the American consulate, seeking a tourist visa to come here, not to be a tourist, but to work here because if you have any work ethic at all, you are going to earn much much more money here than in colombia.

Not only does the average Colombian earn horribly low wages for the work they do, but even when they have a job, they don't work under the best of conditions. The US and europe have all kinds of laws designed to protect the rights of employees. In Colombia, almost everything or anything goes. For example, if the store owner in Colombia tells this woman he want her to be his "girlfriend" and he will pay her some extra $$. He can do it without any fear of reprisals, for there is no such thing as sexual harassment in Colombia.

Bottom line, as they say, "When if Rome, you live like the Romans."
The same applies in Colombia, if she is not happy, she needs to look for a better job, quit and find a rich boy friend, or assuming she is from another country, go back to her country of origin where she will assuredly be better compensated....

My final example is my ex girlfriend. She is a physical therapist from Barranquilla. She got paid well--maybe $6000 a year. After learning Enghlih, she applies for a H1b work visa, passed the board here, and she earned $60,000 a year here--that's about 10 times the money she earned there...and did not have to worry about doctors asking her to go to bed with her all the time like they did to her in Colombia...such realities is an everyday event over there.

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 1, 2005, 21:51:

De acuerdo, Senor. Tiene razon. Good post. I'd like to find something about it to make fun of but I can't.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Atrevido says on Jan 2, 2005, 04:07:

Desi I believe the salario minimo is for a forty-eight hour week.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 2, 2005, 05:03:

I'm sure you're right about that atrevido. It was 48 hrs. per week way back but I had hoped they had come down to 40 hrs. by now. It was just wishful thinking from my part.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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viewpoint says on Jan 2, 2005, 08:30:

Minimum Wage Yes the 48 hour week that Atrevido stated is corrected. As a another poster pointed out a few months back a live in maid that is paid the minimum wage probably has a great job as her living quarters and food is provided plus she has no cost of transportation. The transportation allowance provided is substantially less than the cost of the actual transporation. As to working 10 hours a day more than likely they might not be factoring in the normal 2 hour lunch breaks that most companies follow (by maybe they do).

15.000-20.000 per day is certainly the average for that type of work. The other question that one must realize is there is a big difference in bilingual abilities of people with say they can speak english when in fact they only know a few words, maybe they know some english but don't began to approach fluency can read or write english.

My first girlfriend had studied english for 2 years straight in Medellin and could read and write english better than speak english. It took her another two years of study and pratice to begin to reach some degree of english speaking fluency. Six years later she is a average B+ student in a USA university and still stuggling with english but has mastered english enough to survive.

If you have a girlfriend working for the 15.000 per day you can understand the need to provide some additional enconomic assistance from time to time in order to bridge the gaps. Chance are that she does return home with the 15.000 as she has to pay for thanportation which might be at a minimum 2.000-3.000 R/T if she used the buses and lived close. Welcome to Colombia where every day is an education on the art of survivial. Where everyday is a stuggle for money to meet even the most minimum of requirements for 50% of Colombias population.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 2, 2005, 08:54:

Valdemar.... No matter how you look at it,it appears that based upon the above, 15000 or 20000 pesos is about what a person is going to earn working in a store. The fact of the matter is that with unemployment in Colombia as high as it is, a bussiness owner does not have problems finding someone to work for him.

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viewpoint says on Jan 2, 2005, 09:00:

Gomezman There are people standing in line for that job especially if your skin is black. I was lucky enough to be able to get a job for my girlfriend (within a few weeks) with the company that I worked for at 1.000.000 pesos per month. She liked that better than 225.000 per month especially in 1999 when it was a lot more money. Within a year she was making US$2000 per month working as a financial research analyist assistant for latin american credits. Not bad for a strata three woman who just needed a chance to prove her abilities.

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webmanco says on Jan 2, 2005, 09:57:

Welcome to Colombia where every day is an education on the art "Welcome to Colombia where every day is an education on the art of survivial. Where everyday is a stuggle for money to meet even the most minimum of requirements for 50% of Colombias population." as posted by Viewpoint.

This is the sad reality, of Colombia, but what irritates me as well is that for some families there is always money to buy liquor and other not basic items(but not to save). Plus having more than 1 kid.

Más impuestos
Here are some other changes for this year, including a raise to the tax when leaving the country, and to basic products.


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viewpoint says on Jan 2, 2005, 09:59:

Valdemar I see all these posts that other people make worrying about who's going to pay for the dinner or drinks if they go out with a Colombian woman but you already appreciate the struggle that your friend goes through to make US$6.00 in a day or maybe .60 cents per hour. Can you imagine how much it could help her if she received another 15.000 per day assistance until her secured a better paying job or position ? To provide that assistance might cost US$6.00 per day which wouldn't alter ones life style.

Providing some economical assistance to others that you have a close relationship can make a big difference in their lives and for their families. More importantly, it will make you feel good to know that you have helped to make things possible that might otherwise be impossible without your help and assistance.

The girlfriend (I mentioned above) celebrated Christmas and New Years with her son, mother, father and sister all together in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida at their parents home. My christmas present was knowing that I made it economically possible for all of them to realize their dreams of living in the USA rather than competing for a job back in Colombia that pays very little. The truth is that my little financial assistance was nothing comparing to the work and struggle that they endured to be able to live and work here in the USA.

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oldbongo says on Jan 2, 2005, 10:11:

bravo viewpoint..y gomezhombre you are articulating an example of the reality
that many of us know, and you are representing the
positive and natural reason for the relationships we treasure.
you know, where they come from,things are not the same,
but,they are the same, they don't want to be slaves.
the oldgringos commandante has a "good" job in cartagena,
works 50+ hours,+commute,at a salary that is a crime,
....after 3 years!! and many,many people envy her security,
but imagine her wonder, when she arrived to the great white north,
to discover that freedom pays, and that income is indeed 10 times
or more, and she feels esteemed in public rather than used.
you know, lotsa people denigrate colombians because they view
them as golddigging visa hunters, i think that they are just people
who wish to be free, like so many others,and this is the way.
the means is not to be puzzled over or critisised, ..it's the end that is more importante,... most people just want to be free.
...and in colombia...muy muy poco gente estan libre.

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viewpoint says on Jan 2, 2005, 10:27:

Old Gringo Yes, you are right the Colombians are not gold diggers but rather they are dirt diggers ready and able to move heaven and earth in pursuit of their dreams. Chance are that girl making 15.000 per day is bringing most of it home to help her parents keep shelter and food for her family.

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viewpoint says on Jan 2, 2005, 10:27:

Old Gringo Yes, you are right the Colombians are not gold diggers but rather they (girl, boy, man or woman in all their forms white, brown or black) are dirt diggers ready and able to move heaven and earth in pursuit of their dreams. Chances are that girl making 15.000 per day is bringing most of it home to help her parents keep shelter and food for her family while she probably eats one (two if she's lucky) meals a day. She's got three pairs of panties, four pair of socks, maybe two pair of shoes and one pair of jeans, three bloses and eight dresses.

You can't solve everyones problem but you can have a positive impact on those close to you. I would rather be part of the solution than part of the problem.

Many people pass judgment of Colombian people but have never walked in their shoes. I would love to send my older children (now grown) from the USA to live full time in Colombia for a couple years to learn and instill the values that can only be learned there.

Money buys you choices (not happiness) but how many choices can you buy when you are making US$6.00 a day (maybe only the choice of having two meals a day). I have seen too many things in Colombia that permanently alter your life and perception of values.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 2, 2005, 11:04:

Viewpoint--a few weeks is enough because....... Your children would not even have to live ther 6 months to get a very good idea about life in the quasi-third world. When they find out that they will have to wash all their clothes by hand, and hope that it doens't rain the same day, they do wash them so they can hang their clothes out side to dry, that experience alone will be a rude awakening.

My friend asked me, don't they laundrymats? I said, a few here and there, but they are expensive too, and minimum or near minimum wage people, cannot afford to spend their precious money on someone else to wash their clothes.

The reality of the situation is that, this is life in all of Latin America. Mexico is a little better, only because they have the benefit of being on our border (USA) and their economy for the most part survives on the amount of Mexican and Mexican Americans that live here and send money back to Mex.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 2, 2005, 11:21:

it's actually even worse "Chance are that girl making 15.000 per day is bringing most of it home to help her parents keep shelter and food for her family" (viewpoint)
She won't be bringing most of that money home, however. There's a tax deduction, of course, "retención en la fuente", plus that she has to pay for the transportation to and from her job, unless she lives at a walking distance from the store. She will be spending up to 30% of her income, at the very least, for her own clothes, shoes, accessories, make-up and hair products, because as a salesgirl she is expected to look at her best at all times. She has to wear fashionable clothes and make-up, stylish shoes and costume jewelry to work. Unless her employer provides for the work clothes this item is one of the major expenses she has to assume on her own.

Say deduct the taxes and the transportation from that salary and you'll get around 10 thousand. Deduct 30% for her personal presentation at the job and you get...what? Around 7 thousand to take home every day for her family to buy the platanos for the sancocho. And yet, she is one of the lucky ones to have a job!

Now, about freedom and choices, that's a whole new can of worms to open and discuss.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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ARMacleod says on Jan 2, 2005, 11:38:

Ye Gods!
I still find it hard to believe the wages of so many people are so miserly. But, you cannot all be mistaken.

I tried to purchase some simple things while I was living in Bogota, cheap wine glasses for example. (I dropped a tray of them at El Casa Senora) I was astonished to find them at a price that would make them unsaleable in England.

How could people afford to buy them in Colombia? The same glasses cost equivalent of about 850 peso in all of the major supermarkets in England.

The Chinese appear to have the answer, why cannot Colombia.

Simple solutions: If the simple luxuries, (like the wine glasses) were manufactured locally and sold cheaply or at least at an affordable price. People would buy them, making more jobs, more people with money to buy more things. More things would be made to keep up with the demand, more jobs, more money and so on.

In fact it happens just about everywhere in the world, why not Colombia? Or am I just being naive?

Is it just because of the ‘great divide'? Those with the wherewithal seem to need more and more. Basically, if there were no poor people left to keep the style of the ‘well to do' up, then the ‘well to do' would have to do it them bloody selves. Consequently they need the people to be poor enough to shovel the muck, slave in the shops and to look after the spoiled kids for them.

Personally I dislike extremes of any kind. But it is a known fact that extreme capitalism/wealth introduces righteous envy and in turn, produces extreme communism/socialism or whatever.

Those in ultimate control, do just that, control.

I have always tried to avoid this kind of comment in the past, and I will not do so again. I shall leave the political rhetoric to those better able to lie and cheat that I seem to be able to.

But, I will remain happy.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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valdemar says on Jan 2, 2005, 14:51:

($381.500,oo) moneda corriente ......increible !!! just returned from Siberia this eveneing and checked the forum....to see all these facts, comments, viewpoints etc. posted to my questions. Thanks alot!!
Based on your posts it looks like she's being paid something close to the absolute minimum. I can understand that it's not unusual, but man... that doesn't make it acceptable. She'll need to look into transport subsidies and check up if the owner has registered her for Seguro Social, eventhough I doubt it. However, no matter what benefits she'll obtain it wont give her a decent economical basis, so a donation from my side is the only realistic solution until she gets a little more senority to apply for a better job.

I'm from Denmark where my base is, but I'm travelling a lot for my company as a chemical eng. in the oil refining sector. I've been to so many places around the world (37 countries), but Colombia is something special I never will forget and i'm surely coming back. Some people in Ecopetrol suggested me to apply for a permanent job. This would be a possibility for coming back to colombia. I would not have any problems accepting the national salaries (eventhough they are loooooow) as it would be more of a cultural experience than for economical reasons, but I'm afraid it's too risky considering that I'm a foreigner and engineer. Of course cautions could be taken like driving in a bulletproof car, having guards and living behind bars, but that's not how I want to be in Colombia.
I will keep it to backpacking instead looking poor and dirty. Kind of ironical.

Chao - Valdemar

Chao - Jens

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Atrevido says on Jan 2, 2005, 15:27:

Yes the salario minimo is for a forty-eight hour week but most months have one or two "festivos" which are days off. How much is the transportation allowence? If they take one bus each way that's two thousand pesos for each work day so say around $44.000.

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 2, 2005, 16:37:

For a chick making minimum wage, she is certainly better off getting down on all fours and getting porked by some loser gringo. She might even find one of those losers willing to take her back with them. Don't try this in Medellin. Greg says even though they're losers, they're losers with pride and they don't want to get stuck with some loser gringo.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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valdemar says on Jan 3, 2005, 13:09:

Stupid rich colombians.. (Mercedes Salazar) Just talked to the girl working in Cartagena... She is now working 12 hours every day 7 days a week (yes sundays included) for 400000 Pesos a month, that means she's not even on the minimum salary level but far below. She is not allowed to leave for lunch, but the shop must not smell like food if she eats in. The owner is a reaaaal bitch telling her that she can just leave as 1000's are waiting for this fantastic job. So that's what she's is gonna do tonight. What the fuck is wrong with these rich colombians, how do you get this arrogant? The woman is Mercedes Salazar, a well know colombian designer. Mercedes didn't even come from a rich family so she should know how life is for the working people. I asked my friend to tell the police about the story, but as Mercedes has too much money, this will not lead to anything.

Gotta go there and punish that bitch

By the way as I had my friend on the phone, Juanes came in to the shop. My friend went cracy and we asked me to call back later. Juanes is probably rich now, but he doesn't seem to be fucked up. At least what I know of jajajajaja

Chao - Jens

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kernow62 says on Jan 3, 2005, 15:02:

She told you that was Juanes? That was her boyfiriend! ;-)

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valdemar says on Jan 3, 2005, 15:45:

Good luck Sr. Uribe Ironically the west is giving Uribe a lot of credit not only for his "war on terror" but also his financial policies. From the recent figures (Tinto's) it looks like things are not going that well after all. As Uribe is earning much support from the US due to his pro-US attitude, the US is most likely turning the blind eye on his country's financial situation. Most of the west see a moderate, less corruptive leader in Uribe, hopefully this will not make them completely blind over the years. Anyway at present time Uribe is probably the best option for Colombia.

Hail Uribe and good luck with mess.
Valdemar

Chao - Jens

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Hunter says on Jan 3, 2005, 15:52:

Tinto Over the last 2.5 years, I thought that the urban unemployment figures had come down by approx 25%.

Also the underemployment figures had come down by approx 20%.

Hunter

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viewpoint says on Jan 3, 2005, 19:24:

Tinto I can only offer a few comments regarding your question above. I think that the recent (last 12 months) strength of the Colombian peso is going to slow the Colombian enconomy even more. People within the fiducaries that handle peso payments from US resident Colombians are telling me some horror stories about the increased US dollar requirements needed to fund their US customer house payments. In other words the payments have increased about 25% in US dollar terms while their customers US dollar income has not changed.

For years people with their assets in US dollar or other foreign currencies could ride the wave of the deprecating Colombian peso but now for the past year the tide is turned and it is biting them in the ass. The reverse is true with the person having their assets (cash) in Colombian pesos as they now can go to Panama converting their currency into US dollars and buy property cheap.

Personally I think the central governement has mismanaged it's currency to the detriment of the economy and employment. Oil production keeps falling and soon Colombia will be a net importer. Coal production keeps increasing which is helping the loss of oil production combined with the higher world prices of oil and coal.

The central government is not doing the kind of things to attract foreign investment to Colombia. A good example is in the telecommunications sector. Instead of allowing the deployment of VOIP completely they keep holding it back forcing the public and business to pay inflated rates to the big three telecoms one of which is government owned. This causes the Colombian people to be paying rates of .35 US cents per minute average while their Panamanian neigbors pay .05 to .08 cents per minute (or cheaper for volume).

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bodgergc says on Jan 4, 2005, 02:05:

temp job wanted by a New Zealander Can anybody help me to get a job for a couple of months.My wife is Colombian,and was told to leave NZ .Then to reapply for a visa to come back to NZ.I have also been told to leave if i want to get my wife back into NZ under the Partnership act.
Has anybody else been told "if you want to be married to a Colombian and want to prove the relationship is real ,then get out of NZ,and risk your life over there,then we MIGHT let her back in,by the way you will need to stay there with no income for up to 6mths.
So i need a job or a source of income.I can do warehouse/distrbution/film work (extra)my spanish is no good though but willing to work.can anybody help?? please??

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Hunter says on Jan 4, 2005, 03:59:

Tinto & viewpoint The unemployment charts in the link are only until quarter one of 2004, the urbun unemployment for October according to bloomberg was 13.7%, I suspect it will be around 13% for the end of the year.
When Uribe came to power in the summer of 2002 it was approx 18.5%, so urban unemployment has dropped by 25%-33%.

So I believe there has been a very large amount of employment created in the last few years, although there is still a long way to go.

As to the central goverment mismanaging the currency, I can't comment on, but if you look at other latin curriencies they have also appreciated against the dollar, it is not a Colombian thing but well known dollar weakness.

The Colombian exporters may well be crying, but the exporters in other Latin Countries have the same problem with overall dollar weakness, so they should have less to worry about, than if it was only Colombian peso strength.

The diminshing oil production, is purely due to the security situation in the Countryside over that last decade and the lack of oil exploration. With the security situation improving more exploration licenses have been issued, but it will take a few years for the oil/gas production to turn the corner and increase its daily output, until then it will will keep on falling.
Hopefully the increased coal production will be a fill up until the more oil production comes on stream.

Although I agree 100% that Colombia does not do enough to create foreign investment, in fact I feel it is the opposite.

Hunter

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juanalejo says on Jan 4, 2005, 13:49:

unemployment The trend will continue hopefully not as high a 18%. January is the time for a lot of new comers into the job market, as they either finished high school or college and they are now in the market for a job, and December usually has a hike for vacation workers looking for jobs. Portafolio newspaper has a summary of 13 months which starting at Oct 03 goes from 15.4, 14.1, 14.7, 18.1 for January and then on a constant drop till 14.1 in Oct 04 so that shows a small 1.3% decrease in real terms. It is still a tough neck to break, no flexibility in terms of labour laws were usually to blame, now we have become very flexible and still does not come down. The government says it has seen a substantial increase in the import of capital goods (machinery) etc. which in the medium term should also mean those companies once they have finished investing in these goods they will grow and create more jobs. We shall wait and see.

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Hunter says on Jan 4, 2005, 14:04:

Tinto I would agree, the turn around in the un-employment figures are to quick to be soley attributed to Uribe, they would have happened anyway, but I believe his policies overall are helping the unemployment figures.

Unemployment is a lagging indicator, so if the economy is expanding like it has done for the last couple of years and is projected to for next year, it will not fully show up in the unemployment figures for the initial couple of years or so.

Hunter

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Whipstatic says on Jan 4, 2005, 16:20:

Do Not trust Uribe's Numbers

They have this sort of thing called "sub employment" in which about 40% of colombians fall, that means if you sell candy on the street you are counted as employed.....uh..ok...
to me chicle-selling is not a job, it is sort of a trade till you find something decent to do. Bottom line unemployment in colombia is around 40% and that includes everything cyclical,structural,natural any sort of rate you can think of.

On a separate note....I dont think Tirofijo's men are covered by any sort of health benefits like PPO or HMO insurance or maybe weekend trips to the local pool. I even wonder if the coca field workers and narco dudes are counted as employed.

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Hunter says on Jan 4, 2005, 16:25:

Whipstatic There are two figures quoted several times in the thread, the urban unemployed and the urban under-employed, which I believe you are talking about which stands at approx 40%.

Hunter

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Whipstatic says on Jan 4, 2005, 16:43:

Fact is....
very few colombians are actually employed no matter what numbers you look at. Minimum salary is a privilege for very few, I hear is less than 4 million.
The cities are plagued with unemployed, underpaid people and the laid off. You can randomly pick out ten people in the middle of chapinero and you will find that maybe 2 out of ten actually have real jobs -regardless of whether they are wearing a suit and tie or not----

Minister Carrasquilla said unemployment stood at 12.5% two weeks ago in EL TIEMPO. That just cracked me up, I thought I'd write him a letter and suggest we changed our name from Colombia to Sweden to make it more in tune with our (made up) government economic figures.

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Cousin says on May 1, 2005, 05:31:

Not the numbers Colombia(ns) is not unique in the want to earn money in the US category.

I have known many who have come to the US to earn the money. Wouldn’t you if you knew you could sell yourself (some) body and soul for a period of time and take that $ back home and its buying power would make you rich!

It is not just the number ($) it is what it gets you. My fiancée and I just bought a 3-bed 2-bath apartment in Medellin for less than $25,000. Where can you find property for that ANYWHERE in the US?

A person making $60,000 in the US is getting by but if she saves and sends the after tax on that money will buy her house in one year of work. In places like NY and DC you can make the money and no education/english language skills needed! In many places you have better opportunities off the "boat" without documents then the legal US citizen or resident, because people want to help "their own".

WARNING: Whatout for "your own" they will be the first to exploit you because they know they can!

It is not what you earn it is the buying power of what you take home. I just spent three weeks in Medellin and I know on my $48,000 take home I would live like a king in most of Colombia.

It is mostly greed that makes others come to the US and not the need. Those in need could not afford the passage. I have seen it from Brazil and now in Colombia. I have worked for Immigration and I have seen it from all countries in the world. We are a place where people come to make their lives better, elsewhere.

I would consider doing it if I had the opportunity!

Los Cuatro

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Lionheart says on May 1, 2005, 05:49:

absolutely right Cousin and my calculations are based on that ... earn enough here in the US to warrant my business in Colombia at 1/10th of the costs. And no, I will not tell you how I calculate unless you pay me. Cash only.

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miamimike says on May 1, 2005, 08:45:

What Puzzles me is how... in North Bogota they keep building and building all those new condos with unemployment rates listed in prior posts here. Who's buying these condos????? I mean, you have to show some evidence of a job I beleive. In the Dr(dom.rep) you have to have maybe 20-30% de pronto(down payment to get a bankloan and close on your unit). Are there a lot of Government loan programs in Bogota that allow a first time buyers with low income a subsidized rate or payment for a few years or what? How are they doing it on a wage of $15000 CP daily?? Maybe thats why I see so many repossed condos listed by the major Bogota Banks in their Foreclosure Depts. After the subsidies end, all these units are being repossed. What gives here anyone??

On Sept 17, 2008: Senator John McCain said, as he had many times before, that he believed the fundamentals of the economy were "strong."Hours later he backpedaled, explaining that he had meant that American workers were Strong.

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poco says on May 1, 2005, 10:49:

Whos buying the condos?? Colombian Citizens who can afford payments, remember,, most would NOT want a payment,, anyway,,,

The majority are self employed. Some good jobs that would quality:

City and Government Employees includes Military.
Utility workers.
Professors and Teachers
Police
Doctors and veterinarians
Under employeed Rocket Scientists.
Some skilled construction workers (Plumbers, Electricians).

Forgot to mention. Sometimes an entire family might "chip in", buy and live in a condo.

Footnote: Many jobs have been eliminated and contract workers are being used plus Colombian employees can be and are "Down sized".

Think Colombia can increase manufacturing jobs,, NO not really, the Asian countries pay LESS for labor than Colombia,, Colombia can import RICE cheaper than growing it locally. Sucks doesn’t it.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Jack Smith says on May 1, 2005, 14:11:

US wealth? Yes, a small tiny majority controls the bulk of Colombia's wealth but just %1 of America's 293 million control %40 of the America's wealth.
It is just that the remaining %60 is enough to keep most of us with food, clothing, lodging and transportation...for now.

I cannot speak for you Europeans but America is in for a wake up call one of the days. We have been buying on credit both the government and individuals. Credit cards! We are and have been running trade deficits for years now. We don't want to produce our own goods anymore and if we don't have skilled people because our public schools stink then we give HB1 visas like the physical therapist above. (Immigration has to stop if not be CONTROLLED!)

Our politicans want to make more "FREE" trade agrements to make more 400,000 a month peso jobs in Colombia while we throw our own people out of work!(Colombian flowers have destroyed Colorado's and California's flower production! US government has played a part in this through AID programs in Colombia!)

Colombia, speaking of foreign investment, can't attract much of it due to the negative press. The war, drugs etc. What business wants to invest in a counry that cannot guarantee the security of their executives and or capital? Colombia's economy is a false economy anyway when you have billions of dollars flowing in paying for illegal drugs. Then, you have the taxes the people pay to support the military that could be spent on schools, roads, and even electricity for small villages that my wife says don't have it in the year 2005 lol.

Colombia isn't as bad overall as say Honduras or even Mexico. IF Colombia could ever stop the guerilla conflicts and could invest in the countryside it could be another overall tiger economically like Chile but illcit drugs and everything associated with that destroys any opportunity for any great economic success! Tourism could increase Colombia's economy by %5 annually I have heard but the average tourist will not go to COLOMBIA. (People in this forum are not average? lol)

Anyway, if AMERICA does not focus on what I mentioned above look for that %1 to be controlling %60 to %70 of America's wealth real soon. America may look good to poor Latin Americans but for many of us here I don't see things looking to rosy? When the largest corporation is WAL MART that treats its employees poorly and buys tons of Chinese goods then what does that tell you? No control on illegal immigration and its costs and a government of rich politicans both D and R that forget who elected them!

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poco says on May 1, 2005, 16:15:

Opinion on Employment I'm puzzled why the stock market and construction are strong, commodity prices are high, kidnapping rates are the lowest in 8 or 9 years, homicide rates are the lowest in 18 or 20 years, GDP is growing the fastest since 1995, etc, etc...yet the unemployment rate, while improving, is only back to where it was in 1998. Does Colombia have structural problems aside from the obvious military and drug ones not shared by its neighbors?

The lower Peso is making it attractive for Colombian Industries to purchase equipment such as John Deer, Caterpillar and more modern (less labor intensive) machine tooling.

I have a suspicion it is an increase in Productivity. The men tending the fields have been replaced by mechanization. In Valle Cauca thousands of these people are out of work and the same work will NEVER return. Construction is the one bright side now,, but that will change when masonry can be replaced with less labor intensive materials.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Atrevido says on May 1, 2005, 17:03:

Lets not forget that that in addition to that salario minimo of $381.000 the employer must pay another $117.800 a month for medical coverage plus "sesantias" an extra half month's salery in June and January plus "vacaciones" and another three hundred or so a year for the "prima" and interst on that. If you're thinking of hiring a maid to clean your house or any other employee such as mayordomo, in Colombia this is what you must pay or be in violation of the law. (And they can turn you in and make your life miserable if you don't pay it all!)

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juanalejo says on May 1, 2005, 20:01:

Almost Atrevido, you almost got it right but just for clarification Cesantia is one salary a year plus interest, prima is twice a year June and December both half a salary, plus you have to pay for the holidays as if the person were working, that is 15 working days a year. Plus about 30% of the salary in Social Security, plus around 45000 for transport subsidy, plus in some cases like maids you have to provide uniform and shoes, by law.

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utopiacowboy says on May 1, 2005, 21:51:

"Colombia isn't as bad overall as say Honduras or even Mexico." You clearly have no idea what you are talking about in these rants of yours, Jack. Have you even been to Mexico? Spend some time in Monterrey and then come back and tell me your statements aren't nonsense. You wear your anti-Mexican attitude like a pair of blinders that prevents you from seeing reality. Monterrey is a far richer city than any city in Colombia and the wealth in some of its suburbs rivals that of any well-to-do American suburb.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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poco says on May 2, 2005, 00:30:

Jack - Some numbers Suggest a quick look at the FACTS.

Summary of the statistics for the distribution of wealth in the US as of 1998, the most recent information available that has been fully analyzed:

% of US Population % of Wealth Owned
==========================================================
Top 1% 38.1%
Top 96-99% 21.3%
Top 90-95% 11.5%
Top 80-89% 12.5%
Top 60-79% 11.9%
General 40-59% 4.5%
Bottom 40% 0.2%

You can find this illustrated in a graph at United for a Fair Economy (UFE): http://www.ufenet.org/research/wealth_charts.html

You can also find additional graphs and charts on US income trends at the UFE site: http://www.ufenet.org/research/income_charts.html

These figures are based on research by New York University Economics Professor Edward N. Wolff. In his April 2000 working paper titled "Recent Trends in Wealth Ownership, 1983-1998", Wolff used statistics from the Surveys of Consumer Finances to address several issues surrounding the concentration of wealth in America.

Working Paper No. 300 http://www.levy.org/docs/wrkpap/papers/300.html

According to Wolff's figures, about 70 percent of the wealth in the US is in the hands of 10 percent of population. He also notes that the disparity between the distribution of wealth rose from 1989 to 1998, although the pace of the inequity was slower in the 1990s.

In addition to the Surveys of Consumer Finances, there are two other major sources of data on American wealth:

The U.S. Bureau of the Census Survey of Income and Program Participation (SIPP): http://www.sipp.census.gov/sipp/pubsmain.htm

The Institute for Social Research's Panel Survey of Income Dynamics (PSID): http://stat0.isr.umich.edu/psid/data-center/dcmain.html

The data and methodology for each of these sources varies. As a result, the distribution statistics produced by each of these sources may also vary.

For the purposes of his analysis, Wolff defined wealth as "marketable wealth"
or "net worth," meaning the current value of all marketable assets (real estate, cash, savings, bonds, stocks, pension plans, trust funds, etc.) minus the current value of debts. He excluded durable goods like automobiles and house wares and social security benefits from his definition of marketable assets.

It's important to remember that although wealth and income are strongly correlated, they are different. More factors are taken into consideration when calculating wealth and as a result, it is probably a more accurate indicator of how money is distributed in the US.

Here are some additional resources on wealth and income:

US Census Bureau
http://www.census.gov/dusd/MAB/wp233.pdf
1999 report on the wealth of US families

US Census Bureau -- Census 2000
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/BasicFactsTable?
_lang=en&_vt_name=DEC_1990_STF3_DP4&_geo_id=01000US
Detailed table on income and poverty statistics

http://factfinder.census.gov/home/en/sf2.html
Additional statistics on households and families arranged by state

Understanding the US Distribution of Wealth
http://minneapolisfed.org/research/qr/qr2122.pdf
Comprehensive report based on 1997 data

Century Foundation
http://www.policyideas.org/Issues/Social_Economic/Household_Wealth.pdf
Graphs and analysis based on 1998 US Census data

Review of Income and Wealth
http://www.iariw.org/articlelinks.htm

Survey of Consumer Finances
http://www.icpsr.umich.edu:8080/ABSTRACTS/03155.xml?format=ICPSR
http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/oss/oss2/2001/scf2001.information.html
Comprehensive survey on consumer income, assets, debt, and major transactions

Unequal Income Distribution in the United States
http://home.rochester.rr.com/jerryfisher/income.htm
This is based on 1995 and 1996 data. Scroll down to the bottom for information on distribution by country

Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
http://www.cbpp.org/2-26-01tax.htm
IRS data on after-tax income trends

The L-Curve By David Chandler
http://www.davidchandler.com/lcurve/
Based on 1997 data income. Includes easy-to-understand graphs on income
distribution

Online Dictionary of the Social Sciences
http://datadump.icaap.org/cgi-bin/glossary/SocialDict/SocialDict?term=LORENZ%
20CURVE A definition of the L-Curve

Online Dictionary of the Social Sciences
http://datadump.icaap.org/cgi-bin/glossary/SocialDict/SocialDict?term=GINI%
20COEFFICIENT
A definition of the Gini Coefficient

If you are looking for a geographical breakdown of the distribution of wealth in the US, here are some additional links:

US Census Bureauhttp://landview.census.gov/prod/1/pop/p60-189.pdf
An analysis of income, poverty and benefits based on results from the 1990 census

Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
http://www.epinet.org/studies/pullingapart/1-18-00sfp.pdf
A January 2000 state-by-state analysis of income trends. Based on data from 1978 to 1988

Forbes.com
http://www.forbes.com/2001/06/22/2001maps.html
Search for the world's richest people and click on the map for more information

The following search terms were used on Google:

distribution of wealth in us
wealth and distribution and us
distribution of wealth and us and 1998 and stat or statistic or statistics
gini coefficient

Hope this helps OH,, almost forgot,, have a look at the IRS site.
The internet is useful for gathering this data.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Atrevido says on May 2, 2005, 04:35:

Juanalejo you're correct, I reversed the terminology. In the case of a mayordomo you don't have to pay a transportation subsidy but a uniform after a year yes.

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Rubiazo says on May 2, 2005, 05:53:

making the minimum sucks ANYWHERE I've never been anywhere where you can really get by off of a minimum wage or salary. Here in NYC is probably even tougher to make ends meet off of minimum wage because of how high taxes are and the insane cost of living. Here with minimum wage you'd maybe get to keep $900 or $950 a month or so. The average rental for a ROOM here with shared kitchen and bathroom is around $500, but that's only if its in a bad neighborhood. In a decent neighborhood a room can run you $800 or even $1000.

You would never be able to have your own apartment here on that wage, much less raise a family. On that salary you would be doing the ramen noodle thing day in and day out and completely ruining your health. Even Micky D's would be an unreachable luxury. And there are plenty of places in the US where the cost of living is lower but wages are even lower by comparison.

In Canada where I was born and raised the situation is even worse because even if you make minimum wage they still take 30% OF it in tax. The only thing these countries really have going for them over Colombia is that their currency is much stronger, so if you actually have money to burn you can take it to a place like Colombia and have it go a lot further. And there are plenty of people up here who don't even make anything comparable to minimum wage here either, especially in rural areas.

I don't know why people from the English speaking world always go on about how Latin American countries are corrupt and have huge underground economies when we are really no different.

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miamimike says on May 2, 2005, 06:35:

Yes but in Canada you get something for your Tax Money(30%). Lets talk about Health Insurance for starters. We don't even get this in the US-many have to buy pivately and then pay anywhere from $400-$900 monthly(after taxes) to recieve the same quality of health insurance coverage canadians recieve thru their taxes. I would gladly pay into Canada's system. BTW-while I have heard some criticism over Canada's system I see NO CANADIANS wanting to change to the American system. I think people today look at a President like Aleman in Nicarauga who stole $92 Million from his country's treasury and is now under arrest. Another example of corrupt latin american presidents is EX-Prez Salinas(and his corrupt brother raul) who emptied the countries treasury in the late 80s-early 90s. There are many more-these are only two.Thats why many latin economies never progress-their politicians rob them blind.

On Sept 17, 2008: Senator John McCain said, as he had many times before, that he believed the fundamentals of the economy were "strong."Hours later he backpedaled, explaining that he had meant that American workers were Strong.

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Rubiazo says on May 2, 2005, 09:03:

I agree with you about.. ...health care costing WAY too much in the US, BUT...

The quality of care here is worlds above that in Canada. I've never had to use the health care system in any other place. I hear lots of people from Latin America tell me they feel the health care is better there than in the US; but that may be just that they feel more comfortable with it.

But from my own experience, when I did live in Canada, I avoided doctors like the plague even though they were free because of the poor quality of the care. I ended up going to Chinese doctors and paying out of pocket. Because I was self-employed, I also had to pay all my own dental out of pocket AND prescriptions, which alone ran a good $100-150 a month (not ALL drugs are cheaper in Canada!)

I also know of many instances where Canadians have had to seek treatment in the USA and pay out of pocket, either because of insane waiting periods for surgeries of even consultations with specialists, or because there are things they can do here that they just don't have the skills or the technology to do in Canada. My infant son underwent a surgery called the Kasai procedure here in November and I consider us very fortunate to be located in NYC for this where we had a top surgeon do this. In Canada he'd probably be pushing up daisies by now :(

I may be off, but i BELIEVE that in Colombia you can get on public health for half of that 117k pesos, and if you can prove financial hardship you can get that amount halved again. I have no idea the extent of the coverage though. In Brazil public healthcare is 100% free, but they pay for it in insanely high payroll taxes which keeps wages low enough to make wages in Colombia look good. (minimum monthly in Brazil is currently 280 reais, as of today exactly 261,924.96 in COP).

I'm seriously considering the possibility of living in Colombia at least part-time, and doing the Seguro Social thing for medical, but if I have anything that needs serious medical attention and I don't feel comfortable down there, it is the US I will go to for treatment, NOT Canada.

Also just as an aside, 30% doesnt sound like a lot, but remember that's the BOTTOM tax bracket in canada, which corresponds to 11% in the US (more or less). Many people pay 55-60% of their gross earnings in taxes in Canada. IMO Canada SHOULD be the richest country in the world ten times over, but due to gross incompetence and corruption they are brought down a lot. They can get away with this simply because of the vast resources they have. If any Latin American country were as poorly run as Canada is, it would surely implode within a year or two.

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Jack Smith says on May 2, 2005, 12:42:

For Utopia? Jack has spent 20 years visiting places like Mexico UTOPIA and %50 of Mexico's population is living in poverty. MONTERREY is an exception
and actually Northern Mexico is actually richer than the central and south of Mexico. You say I am anti Mexico? NOPE! I don't like the way Mexico's corrupted rich politicians dump their poor on the US instead of finding them a job. Example! The consulate of Mexico here in Denver has donated textbooks for school children HERE in Colorado in Spanish. Why? Cause they don't want the immigrant kids to learn English. Even worse, these books are needed IN MEXICO.

BTW UTOPIA, if Monterrey and Northern Mexico are so wealthy why are so many illegals in Colorado from Nuevo Leon (Monterrey)?
I am sure Monterrey is like any other Latin city...the wealthy live behind gates and the poor are in shacks? Any slums in Monterrey UTOPIA?

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Jack Smith says on May 2, 2005, 12:50:

So what is your point poco? OK so what? 29.3 million control %70 of the wealth and the other 264 million share the other %30. Gates and Buffet are worth like 75 Bn just the two of them. The per capita income of an average Honduran is $800 a year and the GDP of Honduras is around just 1Bn.

The world is screwed up but what are you gonna do about it?

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carter says on May 3, 2005, 09:15:

In response to the original post I thought 15,000 a day was quite a lot. I have friends here working full days in clothes stores for 10,000 and in restaurants for 8,000. I think in smaller towns either the minimum wage is different or the rules are just thrown out the window.

Rubiazo - I always survived okay in Australia on minimum wage around $11 US an hour. Especially when we get free health care and education but it was easy for me Im a single male with no kids. Also the benefits are alot better for unemployed, disability, single parents etc. They still aren't fantastic and I know alot of single parents who struggle but its a hell of a lot better than the US

I find the minimum wage in the US one of the worst (or possible the worst) for a developed country. Does anyone in the US see a possible change in this in the future with the government starting to offer people the basics?

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Rubiazo says on May 3, 2005, 10:04:

I've never been to Australia But I spent the first 24 years of my life in Canada and another 7 years + here in the US. In both places you would NOT want to live on minimum wage, even as a single male. That Aus minimum wage is at least twice (once you convert currencies) what it would be even at its most expensive in Canada.

The one thing Bogota seems to have going for it is that for such a big city the cost of living is VERY cheap. I've never been anywhere else in Colombia but I imagine that wages are MUCH lower. Most people I know in bogota are pulling in at LEAST $800k a month, which is certainly not a fortune but enough to live decently on certainly.

I think that in the US things are ass-backwards right now; I can practically build my own computer from scratch for what I'd pay for a decent dinner for two in New York right now! In Bogota the computer may be a lot harder to come by, but the food is cheap (and about 100000x better quality too!)

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carter says on May 3, 2005, 16:36:

The shock Gringos get when they find out about the minimum wage in Colonmbia is very similar to the shock that other Nationalities get when they move to the states or Canada. My wage is very low here in Colombia but I survive, in Canada I worked a 80 hour week and struggled to save much in 6 months. I think I would have saved more working a 40 hour week in Melbourne.

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poco says on May 3, 2005, 18:26:

Income produces Wealth - Maybe The world is screwed up but what are you gonna do about it?

The statistics show an increase in personal income. Quoting “Net Worth” for a few individuals is interesting but not useful knowledge. More useful is the fact that individual income for U.S. workers is INCREASING.

Third quarter 2004 Bureau of Labor Statistics by County.
New York, N.Y. = $1,327 week = $69,000 yr = $50,000 take home
U.S. Average = $733 week = $38,100 yr = $33,000 take home pay
Cameron County, Tx = $468 week = $24,300 yr = $21,000 take home.

Take home pay shown is my guesstimate.
Average Income Statistics

Why aren’t more people increasing their Wealth? Because they GET IN DEBT purchasing NON-INCOME producing assets. Many will NEVER accumulate the capital, let alone have the time to start a business and a business has the highest potential for generating great wealth.

U.S. citizens are purchasing Retail and Selling Wholesale. Purchases of overly Expensive Homes, Cars, Clothes, Vacations, you name it. The U.S. encourages “Economic Slavery”. The majority have only themselves to blame. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

Colombia is DIFFERENT. On the surface, men may appear to be “running” the smaller businesses but in many cases the success can be attributed to the woman. Imagine that,, women RUNNING THINGS.

The average Colombian I’ve met would NEVER borrow money to purchase a “thing”. They pay CASH if they have “enough money” or do without. Great investors,, first things first,, House, Business, Rentals, Co-op ventures etc.

From reading PBH it should be apparent that very few non-Colombians can EVER make any amount of money working for a salary in Colombia. I do NOT know a SINGLE United States Citizen ie: “rich” person that gained wealth saving a “Salary”. The “lucky” invested portions of their “discretionary salary income” in company IRA’s, stock options, income producing assets or a business. Warren Buffet has been investing for over 50 years. Somehow I doubt he decided to buy a car on a 60 month loan when he was 25.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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utopiacowboy says on May 3, 2005, 20:45:

It seems evident that no, you have not been to Monterrey, Jack. There is some poverty just as there is poverty in San Antonio but nothing like you see in Colombia. I live fairly close to the border and the vast majority of the illegals come from southern and central Mexico and Central America. Very few come from the states of northern Mexico. Maybe you should try talking to them and finding out where they're from. Latin America and Spanish are the future for the USA - maybe you should try embracing it instead of fighting it. Like civil rights for blacks it's going to happen whether you like it or not.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on May 5, 2005, 13:39:

new post put new post instead

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