Mental Health of Colombians

platano says on May 7, 2006, 00:56:

For the curious, here is the survey methodology... Methods of Surveys

Sampling: All surveys were based on multistage household probability samples. Internal subsampling was used to reduce respondent burden by dividing the interview into 2 parts. Part 1 included core diagnostic assessment. Part 2 included information about correlates and disorders of secondary interest. All respondents completed part 1. All part 1 respondents who met criteria for any disorder and a subsample of approximately 25% of others were administered part 2.

Mode: All interviews were carried out face-to-face by trained lay interviewers.

Measures: All surveys used the WMH-CIDI, a fully structured diagnostic interview, to assess disorders and treatment. Disorders considered include anxiety disorders (agoraphobia, generalized anxiety disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, panic disorder, posttraumatic stress disorder, social phobia, specific phobia), mood disorders (bipolar I and II disorders, dysthymia, major depressive disorder), disorders that share a feature of problems with impulse control (bulimia, intermittent explosive disorder, and adult persistence of 3 childhood-adolescent disorders—attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, conduct disorder, and oppositional-defiant disorder—among respondents in the 18- to 44-year age range), and substance disorders (alcohol and drug abuse and dependence). Disorders were assessed using the definitions and criteria of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV) and the ICD-10 Classification of Mental and Behavioral Disorders (ICD-10). CIDI organic exclusion rules were imposed in making all diagnoses. Methodological evidence collected in the WHO-CIDI Field Trials and later clinical calibration studies showed that all the disorders considered herein were assessed with acceptable reliability and validity both in the original CIDI and in the original version of the WMH-CIDI. Studies of cross-national comparability in the validity of the WMH-CIDI are currently underway.

Quality control protocols were standardized across countries to check on interviewer accuracy and to specify data cleaning and coding procedures. The institutional review board of the organization that coordinated the survey in each country approved and monitored compliance with procedures for obtaining informed consent and protecting human subjects.

plátano

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LaPuntica says on May 7, 2006, 05:09:

No to discredit the survey but... the folcloric and anecdotal expression of happiness of most Colombians always comes hand in hand with true statistical numbers, depicting of course, a much different story.

Perhaps Nigerians and Colombians enjoy shootong each other as much as watching their favorite team win on a Sunday afternoon.

Don't get me wrong, but, as a 3-time exilee, having had my father killed and having experienced many different strange episodes, from earthquackes to cocaine labs, I must actually say that I always suspected the mental health of my compatriotas, including mine.

The trauma doesn't come for free.

So perhaps we do show some degrees of happiness and resilience in a kind of a twisted way, and is it not true that a crazy person does not often seem unexplainably happy?

Despite all this, I must be mentally insane, for, after 20 long years, I am about to return to the country that saw me born. I don't have a fricking penny to show for this oddisey, claro, qué piensan guevones, I went really high up and went down the same way.

But after having lost everything, what else is there to do than to return to this happy country of mine in a desperate attempt to forget about my own pains and enjoy the collective happiness of a true enigmatic mental institution called Locombia?

And no, I did not smoke one before I wrote this statement, it's actually been a long time. I still haven't decided if the herb was planted by God or the devil, but it sure makes you happy also, doesn't it? Perhaps Colombians are just a bunch of cannabis lovers, though we seem to indulge on just about anything, even this great web site!

LaPuntica, finally returning to write a book...

"All work and no play?"

"All work and no play?"

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platano says on May 7, 2006, 08:43:

LaPuntica, (¿solo la puntica, no más? If I understand what you are saying, can it be summed up in a few words: you are poor, but happy?

I wish you all the best with your book.plátano

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 7, 2006, 09:55:

My wife is the happiest person I know but she has experienced enough personal tragedy in her life that I am surprised she is not in an institution for chronic depression. I don't think you can use these studies that indicate Colombians are happy-go-lucky to indicate that the quality of life is good. There are kids shooting each other all the time in Colombia, Platano, but it's not news. Many of the guerilla fighters are kids. Many of the small time hoods shooting each other in the poor barrios are kids. You must not get out much. I see kids all the time on the streets of Medellin, huffers begging for change. You won't see that in San Antonio. If we did a survey that showed the huffers were all happy, would that mean their situation was a desirable one? No logic there.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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LaPuntica says on May 7, 2006, 10:10:

Thanks bro (about the book).

Of course, to make me really happy you have to buy my book and make all your friends buy it too in solidarity.

That way however, the entire purpose of this web site might be defeated irremediably, making a poor but happy bastard, rich and miserable wallowing in all those dollars.

But who cares about purpose and meaning anyway? Just about no one gets it, and that is why it is better to go about it in a chavalier way, ignoring Socrates and company and settling for a simple sancocho without hairy muslos.

In regards to your question, you play it simple to her in the act of contriction: "solo la puntica", and there she goes, extremely happy with little, until she gets it all and stuffs herself making her irritable only to dump you later.

All this in good humour of course, aprovechando the 150th birth anniversay of that señor llamado Freud, born, somewhere in Jambaló Checoslavaquia, who seemed to understand everything perfectly and for some reason every one as of late keeps contesting his findings all to conclude that in the end he was right.

And he simply said that all sex is required to defeat solitude, we all suffer from the same desease, right?

And the internet and sites like this with free expression, in which everything is said and nothing is relevant, agravate our condition.

Which is why that long explanation goes to explain that it is hard to explain this characteristic nickname of mine, LaPuntica.

Despite the digress, I will still hope to write a coherent book. It will start with a colombian getting ready to be busted at an international airport with 4 kilos of Cocaine while his mind goes back in time 5 years to remember a strange funeral.

Needless to say, a true story.

:-)

Greetings, from Brazil, 2-3 weeks before the end of the last exile,

LaPuntica

"All work and no play?"

"All work and no play?"

"All work and no play?"

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platano says on May 7, 2006, 10:13:

UTC, There is organized violence in a civil conflict in Colombia...which is NOT taking the form of masacres of school children inside the school.

There are not kids going into public schools and shooting other kids and their teachers at random in masacre style, like Columbine. Doesn't happen in Colombia. Happens in the United States.plátano

plátano

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bkcarolina says on May 7, 2006, 10:20:

Right, Platano... as a friend of mine says, you might get shot in Bogotá by a poor person who wants your money to pay his rent, but you're not going to get shot by a random lunatic walking the streets...

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Colombiche says on May 7, 2006, 10:24:

There is difference ...between an 11 year old orphan destitute street kid who puts a gun to your head to take your wallet and an 11 year old rosy cheeked big mac fed boy who decides to come to school and shoot his peers one day. One has an economic motive, the other one has......???? (somebody please fill in the blank 'cause I'm at a loss for words)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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caslug says on May 7, 2006, 10:31:

dead is dead.. does it matter how some kid dies, be it murder, neglect, starvation, abuse, car accident, etc.,? In a country of over 300 million how many kids in US has killed in a school shooting? Less than 100? Lots more kids in the US kill each other OUTSIDE of school(ie, gang violent). Even then, i suspect the percentage in ratio to population is LESS than COL.

It would be interesting to see how many dead kids(under 18) as a percentage of population in COL from all causes. I'm sure death fr auto accident are lower in COL, because less teenager drive in COL vs US. US is a more stable country(ie, now civil conflict), still there are less death of children as a percentage of population than COL or MANY other poor countries(ie, Brazil).

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platano says on May 7, 2006, 10:34:

LaPuntica, nada más Socrates was right on. Freud made some valuable contributions but was limited in his understanding, especially with regard to emergent unconsciousness. Psychoanalysis and orthodox psychology have never understood the nature of the emergent unconscious in its higher forms. They try to explain it in terms of submergent unconscious.

So they trace samadhi back to infantile breast union (heads up UTC, we are talking about breasts!) and they reduce transpersonal unity to prepersonal fusion in the pleroma. God is reduced to a teething nipple and all congratulate themselves on explaining the Mystery.

It is ridiculous the amout of things psychoanalysis is forced to attribute to the infant's first four months of life in order to account for EVERYTHING that subsequently emerges. Fortunately, the whole enterprise is beginning to fall apart, of its own weight.

plátano

plátano

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platano says on May 7, 2006, 10:44:

Tinto, Colombiche, Thanks, Tinto, for the list of notable school masacres. Colombia not there. I have yet to read of any case in Colombian history of a serial killer canibalizing the victims. In other parts of the world there are some real sick people... Colombian mental health is better.

Colombiche: For me it is important that students be able to study in an environment that promotes learning. When a student enters a school library with an automatic weapon and begins shooting, that is disruptive, not conducive to learning.

Almost anywhere in the world you can find street crime (though not everywhere). My point is that in Colombia you do not, you have not ever in the history of Colombia, found even a single incident, not even an isolated incident... NO INCIDENCES (as in zero, zilch, nada) of a student with an automatic weapon firing upon their fellow students inside their school. ¡VIVA COLOMBIA!
plátano

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 7, 2006, 12:17:

You may be right, Platano, that there have been no recorded instances of school shootings in Colombia. Of course in Colombia kids have plenty of opportunities not afforded to them in more benighted places to kill each other. Colombian mental health may be better just like it is in Nigeria. However to argue that the quality of life is better in Colombia (and Nigeria) is just plain ridiculous.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on May 7, 2006, 12:19:

I would also argue what other nation could come up with a guy like Pablo Escobar. Geez, American serial killers were small potatoes compared to him. Of course we could argue that many corporate magnates are also killers on a large scale and so it goes. Nobody's got a monopoly on virtue.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on May 7, 2006, 12:40:

Definition of monopoly... The traditional definition of monopoly is economic: a market in which there are many buyers but only one seller. Exclusive control. Since virtue and happiness are not (fortunately) commodities bought and sold in the marketplace, I agree with your statement: "Nobody's got a monopoly on virtue."

But Colombia does have better mental health... which is the point of my original post. So far, no one has been able to disprove my statement:

"In Colombia you never read about school children shooting each other, or postal employees shooting each other, or women drowning their children, or serial murderers who cannibalize their victims... etc. etc. etc."

You don't even hear about massive car bombings (like in Oklahoma City) that kill 163 people in one building. It has just never happened in Colombia on such a massive, impersonal scale. Heaven knows the means are available (fertilizer, etc.). Does anyone know of a car bombing in Colombia that killed more than 100 people with one attack?

74 men, women and children were masacred by the USA government in Waco, Texas. Has the Colombian government, at any time in its recent history, engaged in such mass murder of its own citizens: men, women, and children?

Perhaps Colombian mental health is better, not as depraved as in other places.

plátano

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 7, 2006, 14:21:

You're right, Platano. Killing someone over a sum as small as a dollar or two is something that NEVER happens in Colombia. Of course where else can a man be married to his own aunt and no one thinks anything of it? Nope, no depravity there! I would agree that they are happy HPs, no doubt about it. In the midst of complete depravity, they are still happy.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on May 7, 2006, 14:24:

In Colombia school children DO shoot each other but I guess it doesn't count since they are not in school. So I guess they are not really school children then, just school-age children. Hell, there was a report by some NGO whining about the number of child combatants in Colombia. One of the highest in the world as I recall. Nope, no depravity there.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on May 7, 2006, 14:25:

Another NGO did a study about the numbers of women conscripted into Colombia's guerilla armies to serve as sex slaves, cooks, servants etc. I guess they're not in school either so they don't count. Nope, no depravity there.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on May 7, 2006, 15:01:

UTC, Now that you have brought the NGO's into the scenario, I have to admit you are right. UTC, using the evil human-rights obsessed NGO's to support his argument! I'm shocked. You win!

plátano

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poco says on May 7, 2006, 21:14:

Reality Check
I need to crank up the scanner and post a few Colombian newpaper articles when I return.

How about one where a Colombian murders his baby for 20,000 pesos. They have such great graphics. The one about the guy that went into a Bogota club and murdered,, what,, 6 patrons for no reason.

I think this may be necessary because MUCH more happens in Colombia than is EVER written about in English newspapers.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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poco says on May 7, 2006, 21:26:

Colombia needs grief consuling MSF teams counsel patients about stress, trauma, insomnia, fear and grief as part of their work in Colombia. MSF mental health experts find that many patients at mobile clinics report generalized body pain or headaches. Some also travel long distances to request common medicines that could be obtained elsewhere. These are symptoms of people living in fear of the continuous violence. Domestic violence, sexual assault and child abuse are also common and for this reason have become accepted by many.

Mental Health in Colombia Just goes to show, folks can become accustomed to anything.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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platano says on May 7, 2006, 21:27:

poco, What I'd really like to see are the MASS MASACRES, the ones that kill over 50 people in one pop. Put in all the gory graphic details you want. Only trouble is you won't find any in Colombia. That shit (Waco, Oklahoma City, etc.) happens in the USA.

plátano

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costajunkie says on May 7, 2006, 21:27:

An anecdote and some validity concerns I remember once driving with my wife to Soledad one Saturday morning to see the papas. As I was driving the road leading to the airport, I was trying to turn left onto one of the main drags that lead into Soledad (where the Soledad SAO is located - an infamous intersection even after the addition of the trafffic light). While waiting forever in the left turn lane, a woman without a stitch of clothes walks in front of my car, and then proceeds to cross the lane of the Barranquilla-bound traffic without even looking. Of course this caused a major traffic jam. As I waited and waited, I watched this woman go about her business - please, don't misunderstand me, looking out of concern, because clothes would have been a definite improvement - hoping, waiting for someone to intervene. People looked, people stared, a few concerned people tried to talk to her, but for the most part people ignored her as much as this was possible and let her be. I looked at my wife, and all she could do was shrug and say "It happens". I asked her if there was someone to call, and she responded "Like who?" After 15 minutes waiting (because of this woman and the resulting traffic), I made my turn and left the scene.

Three hours with the family in Soledad, and we get in the car to return to our apartment...

And at the same intersection, the same SAO... again, the same traffic, the same crowds of people... the woman was still here, curled up in a planter trying to sleep while two women talked to her. Someone had given her a sheet, but she wasn't using it for its donator's intended purpose. Instead she had used it to lie in the planter, with no thought given to maybe covering up.

My mind immediately did the Gringo thing it does when I see something strange and inexplicable like this, and I asked myself: "How long would something like this have been permitted to go on in the US?" It isn't that something like this can't happen here, because it does. For example, I rememeber listening to the traffic report on the radio one morning, and the very same thing was happened - a naked guy was walking along the side of the Maricopa Freeway during rush hour, bringing traffic to a standstill. However, by the next report in 10 minutes, the DPS had him in the back of a cruiser and off to wherever they would take someone in his condition.

The difference is that someone would have intervened in the US, and he/she would be evaluated in short time if displaying such obvious behaviors of someone who is mentally ill. In Colombia, in a major city, my wife couldn't even comprehend who should be called. In fact, my wife - a very kind and compassionate person - and her reaction was like those of most - she was totally non-plussed, if not somewhat indifferent to what was happening and what should be done.

I get really suspicious of any studies that make comaparisons and rankings from country to country. Comparisons are forced and calculated, without any real concern for the unique differences of variables from country to country.

For example, the (in-)famous "quality of students" poll, and how well students know mathematics, language, science, etc. The US usually comes up short in these international rankings, worrying many people of a decline and failure in our educational system. However, it is less well-known that while the scores of all our students are used, including those who have no plans of attending university in the future, many other countries use only those scores of students who are university bound for their base data.

Nobody crunches numbers and data like the US... we are an efficient society, and we do so because we have understood efficiency lowers costs. Efficiency is best attained by understanding relevant variables, polling and sampling, and then crunching away. Many other countries are incapable of doing the same, some because they just don't see and understand the importance, or they are prohibited for lack of funds to construct a study, initialize polling and sampling of relevant variables... or for a multitude of reasons ad infinitum.

So, on to the mental health of Colombians...

Do people feel happier in Colombia? I don't know... I feel happier in Colombia!

However, what constituted the base data for comparison of this in Colombia, and other countries for that matter? OK, it was published in the "Lancet" (the GB medical journal), but still I'm skeptical. How was the polling/sampling constructed and conducted? How large was the sample population? Did they round up, say, 100 people at random, yell "If you're happy and you know it - and you're not mentally ill - clap your hands"? Did they do a bed count at the inpatient mental clinics? (Could there be such a thing as outpatient here?)

Another even more important factor is the stigma attached to those people who might have a mental illness... because of the societal stigma attached to mental illness and the pressure to not admit to such problems and the negative implications attached to treatment and taking medication, the data will definitely be skewed, even in the best constructed survey. Americans and many Westerners are less stigmatized by such problems, and thus would be more open to acknowledging them. But in Colombia, how many people do you know who are going through problems would readily acknowledge this and search out help and medication? I don't know... I will admit that my life is not an easy one, and I have taken medications such as Effexor to help me lighten the load from time to time. I remember admitting this to my wife when I first met her, and she had a look of concern and - fear! - that maybe I was not OK. She understands it now for what it is... but recently after giving birth, being a new mom, trying to deal with her business that was becoming more and more successful, thus requiring her to work more hours, she was becoming depressed. She was also dealing with some physical pain and insomnia too. She finally admitted that she was taking a medication to deal with the insomnia and pains, Amitriptyline... for those of you who know, it is a medication that while easing insomnia and chronic pain, is a tricyclic antidepressant prescribed exactly for depression. She will never admit to taking it on account of depression though, no matter how hard you press her on it.

Bueno... I was going to continue with this theme and one of the ways Colombians are probably happier than those in the US - fewer cases of existential crisis/depression - but I'm tired (and depressed)... maybe later.

Until then: Buenas noches y'all...

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platano says on May 7, 2006, 21:31:

Colombia needs grief counseling Domestic violence, sexual assault and child abuse...

Is that all you've got? I mean that can be found in many places? And worse than Colombia.

The survey demonstrates that Colombia has better mental health overall than other countries.

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 7, 2006, 21:34:

I'm certainly not going to deny that they're happy HPs. I've often thought that my wife is a really a Zen Buddhist and lives completely in the moment.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on May 7, 2006, 21:37:

coastajunkie, I posted above a detailed description of the methodology used in the survey to guarantee validity and reliability. Maybe you missed it.

You ask: "How long would something like this have been permitted to go on in the US?"

Think back not too long ago to an incident in New Orleans. People were allowed to die, without assistance, even though the entire nation was aware that help was needed. Government inefficiency, corruption, bureaucracy are not unique to Colombia.

There are over one million children living homeless on the streets of the United States. How long will they be allowed to live like that?

"American society is characterized with rampant violent crimes, severe infringement of people's rights by law enforcement departments and lack of guarantee for people's rights to life, liberty and security of person.

Violent crimes pose a serious threat to people's lives. According to a report released by the Department of Justice of the United States on Nov. 29, 2004, in 2003 residents aged 12 and above in the United States experienced about 24 million victimizations, and there occurred 1,381,259 murders, robberies and other violent crimes, averaging 475 cases per 100,000 people. Among them there were 16,503 homicides, up 1.7 percent over 2002, or nearly six cases in every 100,000 residents, and one of every 44 Americans aged above 12 was victimized." -- People's Republic of China State Council on Human Rights Record of the USA in 2004 (PRC, the friendly, wonderful, "authoritarian capitalist" trading partner of the world)

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 7, 2006, 21:53:

Give me a break, Platano. There was a national uproar over the New Orleans episode that continues to this day. You can't turn on NPR without hearing yet another report about Louisiana. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Louisiana! It's not like we (Texas) didn't do our part to help them. The best help they can get is a strong economy where jobs are plentiful together with a low cost of living most importantly low real estate prices. I don't hear too much crying from the West Coast and Yankee liberals making a killing off their soaring real estate prices.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on May 7, 2006, 21:58:

UTC, Until a hurricane came along, how much did you hear about the neglect of black people in New Orleans? It was only when they were on the rooftops and on television screens pleading for help that attention was suddenly (OK, not so suddenly for many who died) forthcoming.

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 7, 2006, 22:02:

You're right, Platano. I'm shaking in my boots just thinking about those statistics. I may even start locking the door to the house when I leave for work. Of course that would mean I'd have to find the key to the house first.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on May 7, 2006, 22:06:

The situation in New Orleans is more complicated than that and the hurricane was actually a godsend for many of them. If black people were neglected, they were neglected by their own political leadership which, of course, does not do squat for them, preferring instead to use them as pawns.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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poco says on May 7, 2006, 22:38:

Mental Health Care Crisis Twenty-four per cent of the sample were probable cases of mental ill health. Females had a prevalence rate three times higher than males.

Colombia Lacks Mental Health Care Where it’s needed the most.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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costajunkie says on May 8, 2006, 00:05:

No, I got more... Colombia: HAPPY!
US: NOT!

You're right, and I'm wrong... I imagine you can break out the aguardiente and celebrate now...

I won't even give thought to debating this with you, and not because you have all the facts and nothing I could say has any value... it is simply because to doubt you, to contradict you, would lead to more anti-US blather upon subjects that have nothing to do with this thread. I never said things were better in the US, only that mental illness is probably better understood and acknowledged than it would be in Colombia.

You see the publication of a WHO survey in the Lancet... therefore this must be the gospel truth?

Is this all YOU'VE got???

Yes, the Lancet is a highly-esteemed medical journal, but this was simply a publication of the results from the WHO survey, and nothing more.

Is this all YOU'VE got???

I have trouble giving full faith in and credence to a survey that relied on a designated public health official from each country to conduct the survey using different polling methodolgy.

Yes, I missed the part where you reprinted an abstract of part of the SURVEY (not what I asked for), but this does not address the problems of selecting a proper population to sample.

Upon searching further, I discovered how each country used different methods of selecting this population to be sampled. Problem #1...

Some polls were conducted over a range of years, whereas others took only one poll. Problem #2...

The possibility that mental illness might be less understood and stigmatized in Colombia (and other countries... did you read this part?), therefore no matter what the questions asked, you would find inaccurate and misleading responses. Problem #3...

The possibility that a country's representative might not have another motive, for whatever reason - political, personal, inexperience, whatever - to change, to perhaps manipulate the population being tested. Problem #4...

If WHO surveyed Zimbabwe or Nepal also and found that Zimbabwe or Nepal was the "happiest" country, would you still so readily believe this? It could have happened with a poll like this.

The whole study is interesting but intrinsically flawed. The simple fact is a survey is only as good as the population being tested. And it really means jack-squat not only because investigators are using differing methodology and independence to select the survey population, but also because you are comparing diasporate cultures and unique cultural beliefs.

In closing, get off your high-horse and stop acting so self-righteous and contemptuous in your view of ALL Americans. Not everyone voted for Bush... not everyone agreed with the war in Iraq from the beginning... not all Americans believe that we "live in the best of all possible worlds," right here, right now... and some, just some, are perfectly happy in Colombia and believe it to be a great place, with truly warm, caring and genial people, despite the problems.

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platano says on May 8, 2006, 06:25:

coastajunkie, Thank you for you response. I appreciate your comments. I am, very, very, carefully, getting off my high horse.

plátano

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platano says on May 8, 2006, 06:52:

A few other observations... I won't be breaking out the aguardiente. I don't do drugs.

You asked the question about the USA. I tried to answer it. I did not bring up the USA. The statistics I quoted came from the USA DOJ as quoted by a USA trading partner.

I never mentioned Bush or any political party. The mental health problems are not party related.

I agree with you that Colombia is "a great place, with truly warm, caring and genial people, despite the problems." That was the point of my original post and explicitly stated there.

Plátano X, defensor de Colombia

plátano

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Colombiche says on May 8, 2006, 07:50:

The study Just indicates that colombians are happier people in general. It is not a Colombia vs US pissing contest that you guys are turning it into.

We are not a technological or economic power, but Colombians for whatever reasons are considered to be happier than many other nations including the US. Can't you just live with that???? You guys always want to discredit anything positive that is said about colombia and point out how you are better at just about everything.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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platano says on May 8, 2006, 09:04:

It's like debating something with a six year-old... Tinto,

Do I need to report you to the moderator? No, wait, you are the moderator!

In general there seems to be a healthy skepticism on PBH about social science research methodology, especially when the findings show that Colombia is actually better than other places... tough audience here.

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 8, 2006, 11:38:

Here is the problem, Colombiche. I, personally, have no doubt that Colombians are very happy people. This may be the main reason why I am married to my wife other than her inner and outer beauty. Nobody needs to convince me of this.

The problem I have is when Platano goes on to say as he does above "the findings show that Colombia is actually better than other places". It doesn't show that at all. Better? In what sense? Just because the people are happier than in other places doesn't mean it is better. The inhabitants of Jonestown and David Koresh's group of nuts in Waco were probably euphorically happy too. Does this mean that these places were paradises on earth? I think not.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on May 8, 2006, 12:25:

UTC, How do you get from "better" (by percentage points in a controlled study) to "paradise"?

I did not say Colombia is a paradise. What I am trying to say (with scientific support) is Colombia has better mental health than some of the other countries in the study. Better in what sense? In fewer mental health disorders as measured by DSM-IV and ICD-10.

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 8, 2006, 12:37:

OK. I stand corrected. David Koresh's nutfarm in Waco was probably "better" than a random subdivision of normal people living in Waco. Let's not forget though that Nigeria is still Number 1. So by Platano's standards, Nigeria is as good as it gets on this earth.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Rubiazo says on May 8, 2006, 13:57:

Colombian neckties used to be known as "Sicilian neckties". They were invented by my paisano Italians, the paisas who came to NYC just imitated them.

What matters is not whether people are happy in one place or not, it's whether YOU can be happy or not. I think there are a lot of things that I love about Bogota that would probably be wasted on most people. Or for another example, the 70% reduction in crime in NYC over the past 12 years is almost completely wasted on me, because I'm not some little old lady, I'm bigger and scarier looking than the average NFL player, so it doesn't do me much good that muggings are down, they weren't coming for me anyways!

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platano says on May 8, 2006, 14:12:

UTC, "So by Platano's standards, Nigeria is as good as it gets on this earth."

No, by the study's standards Nigeria has fewer mental health disorders than Colombia.

And Rubiazo and I discussed that at some length some time ago in a salsa discussion thread on PBH. It has to do with West African music, religion, and attitudes toward work and play.

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 8, 2006, 18:07:

I'm glad that they're happy but I still don't see them tearing down the doors to get in.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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poco says on May 8, 2006, 18:35:

Activism at its finest What I'd really like to see are the MASS MASACRES, the ones that kill over 50 people in one pop.

OK –

A bomb hidden aboard Avianca Flight 203, en-route from Bogota to Medellin. The plane exploded over Bogota killing all of its 107 passengers. In the same month, a bomb blast outside the Bogota headquarters of DAS, Colombia's Administrative Department of Security, killed 52, injured 1,000, gouged a 30-foot deep crater and damaged buildings forty blocks away. In March 1990, bombs exploded in Cali, Bogota and Medellin simultaneously, killing 26 people and injuring 200 more.

There are many little cases of murder.
More bus bombings

I wonder,,, were these murdered children happy? What about their friends,, are they still happy or maybe their family and parents,, a bunch of happy campers I’d bet.

Back to the subject of mental health:

The young have it tough in Cali

Funny how all these reputable studies seem to say the same thing.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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utopiacowboy says on May 8, 2006, 18:46:

Damm, Poco, you're going to confuse them with the facts. Personally I wish the miserable 600,000 Colombians here would pack up, go home and be happy. I guess they're happy bitching and whining.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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kernow62 says on May 9, 2006, 06:37:

UTC if Colombia was in a position economically similar to the US you could bet a great many would be tearing down the doors to come in. There is a reason why people want to live in the USA. money, primarily. So the argument "I still don't see them tearing down the doors to get in." isn't much of an argument to the state of a nation's happiness. IMHO

Conversely if Colombia was as wealthy as the US, would they be as happy?

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utopiacowboy says on May 9, 2006, 09:47:

I think if Colombia was as wealthy as the US they would probably be miserable and concerned about all the crud that many people here worry about. Believe it or not, it's not about money or how much stuff you can accumulate. Actually I think that's why the Colombians who are here ARE miserable because the only reason they are here is the dinero. If you're here for the right reason, like my wife, every day is a fiesta.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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caslug says on May 9, 2006, 10:16:

i disagree kernow.. maybe MANY immigrants want to come to US for money. BUT not all there's lots of immigrants(legal) mostly that came to the US for political asylum. THey would NOT have come if there country was stable, that include many COL. When was the last time you read some US citizen FLEEING the US seeking political asylum, beyond some anti-war protesters(who's lives were NOT in danger).

I think if COL, MEX, etc., were safer and more stable, you would see lot less people want to migrate to the US. As UTC mention, if you like the US beyond it's economic opportunity, there's LOT of things that people want to come for...

political freedom, we can have political discussion with other people without free of getting killed or thrown in jail. A pro-FARC supporter in a pro-govt town, will get harrass(if not killed) if he makes his view public. Anyone can spout anti-american rethoric in public forum in US, and NOT get killed. Heck, americans do that ALL the time(talk sh*t about our gov't and leaders).

personal freedom/safety, you can CHOOSE where you want to live. If you CHOOSE a nice safe area, it's VERY safe, no need for bodyguards. You can go where you choose, live where you choose, work where you choose.

diversity, lots of different options from different food, products, people, culture, etc., to engage in and enjoy.

A consumer paradise, you can buy any commercial in US, we can order books online have it deliver for free.

Entertainment paradise, you can see ALL the first run movies in the theater the FIRST week it comes out.

Rule of Law, especially business/consumer law that protect the little guy.

I'm moving abroad this summer for work, while living like a king, I'll miss all the above mentions. I'm moving to Vietnam, communist country, can't talk about politics, have to deal with bribes/corruption in business dealings. I don't have to worry about violent crime, but i have to constantly worry about petty crime. Throw in health issues, lack of santition, etc., I definitely will miss the US.

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poco says on May 9, 2006, 15:14:

The best of the best The determination of the “best” or Top 10 or other statistics for 2006 can be viewed at this location.

2006 quality of life

The lists are quite extensive. What countries have the highest salaries, best cities in the world, long life, healthy living etc.

To view the country rankings goto the bottom of the page and click the “Please read on” link.

If it is any consolation, Colombia ranks twice as high as Iraq (well, that shouldn’t be hard) and A LOT HIGHER than Nigeria. This coincides with the talk I had with a couple of Nigerians a few weeks ago.

The lists don't include "Mental Health".

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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kernow62 says on May 9, 2006, 15:25:

Caslug that is true, but there are lots more coming for dinero tahn freedoms. They can have freedom in any country that grants political asylum. I wouldn't consider seeing the Hollywood movies first a reason to emigrate, hell I wouldn't watch most of them when they come to TV. Most of the world can order crap online if they have the money, that's not a reason to emigrate. Lots of countries are just as lawful if not more so than the US.

If you poll people coming in from Mexico, or India for example, if they are honest it is because of money. Not freedom of speech ja ja, not movies, buying books online, not for toilets that flush.

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Blue says on May 9, 2006, 16:45:

The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make heaven of Hell, and a hell of Heaven.(John Milton)

Blue

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platano says on May 9, 2006, 17:17:

Blue, "Sometimes naked, sometimes mad,
now as scholars, now as fools;
thus they appear on the earth -- the free ones!

--Shankara

plátano

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poco says on May 9, 2006, 18:26:

More reasons Colombians have great mental health Some of the mental health effects of confinement and blockade are particularly alarming, such as the rates of suicide in confined territories, particularly among indigenous women. This trend is particularly worrisome given concerns over the extinction of some indigenous groups. Many of the civilians interviewed for a recent CODHES research project who lived in blockaded or confined communities exhibited nervous disorders from living on territories with armed actors who could attack at any moment. Furthermore, it is common for children to suffer trauma from life under this kind of pressure: notably, this trauma may convert into chronic mental problems without adequate treatment.

Without sufficient information on birth control and with few appealing options for self-actualization, young displaced women and girls will continue experiencing high rates of pregnancy without the resources to support their children. On a related note, fifty-two percent of displaced women experience domestic abuse, as compared to 20 percent of non-displaced women: these figures suggest that the stress of displacement places women in particular physical danger in their own households.

Colombia Report - Displacement

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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utopiacowboy says on May 9, 2006, 19:13:

I talk to a lot of Indians and of course the ones who are here are a self-selected group and not representative. Most of them love living in the US and hate the thought of going back to India. According to them, Indian society is very rigid and inflexible with hundreds of rival tribal groups. Most people don't even travel outside their tribal area or state because they fear being robbed, beaten or otherwise taken advantage of. I knew one woman who had come here shortly after she was married in India leaving her husband at home. Even after a year apart she was in no hurry to go home and live dominated by her husband and her husband's family. Another guy had lived here for 7 years and had only visited India for brief periods (also married with wife in India). He finally had to go back and he has not been able to return due to visa issues. I could go on and on - stories like this are common. I guess all the Indians who love India the way it is stay home. I'm hoping to go some day and check it out myself.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on May 9, 2006, 19:23:

UTC, I think poco is referring to a different type of Indian.

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 9, 2006, 19:32:

Go back another post, Platano. Poco snuck in while I was still writing.

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poco says on May 9, 2006, 19:34:

Is this a mental health problem?

The most prolific serial killer in the world came from Colombia.

Pedro Alonso Lopez (300+) Meet the deadliest serial killer of the Archives. Pedro was known as the "Monster of the Andes" after the impressive numbers of hits he tallied in his three-nation killing spree. A native of Colombia, his prostitute mother kicked him out of their home at age eight for fondling his younger sister. Adding insult to injury he was then picked up by a pedophile and sodomized against his will. By the time he was eighteen he was gang banged in prison and retaliated by killing three of his assailants.
Upon his release he started killing young girls with glee and impunity. By 1978 he claimed to have bagged more than 100 girls in Peru. After a brush with an angry village mob he moved his activities to Colombia and Ecuador where his blood lust averaged about three kills a week. He found killing Ecuadorian girls quite enjoyable because they were "more gentle and trusting, more innocent." Authorities attributed the rash of disappearing girls to active slavery or prostitution rings in the area.
In 1980 a flash flood uncovered the first of his victims. When he was arrested he told his interrogators the frightening tale of his reign of death. At first authorities were skeptical, but all doubts disappeared when he quickly produced more than fifty graves. It is widely believed that three hundred hits is a low estimate for this most prolific serial killer.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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utopiacowboy says on May 9, 2006, 19:39:

But I bet he was a happy serial murderer. Of course I heard about a Nigerian serial killer who was even happier.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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poco says on May 9, 2006, 19:49:

You bet he was happy One of them was the "Monstruo de los Andes" (Pedro Alonso Lopez), who supposedly raped and murdered hundreds of little girls in Ecuador, Peru, and Colombia. He was a fascinating and sick character: a friend of mine who met him in prison a couple of decades ago told me he was extremely charismatic, very well liked by other inmates, and a sort of mediator when conflicts arose in the jail. The death sentence doesn’t exist in Ecuador, and the maximum jail time you could do in Ecuador at the time (no matter what your crime was) was 16 years. Pedro Alonso did his time in jail, and was actually released a year early because of his good conduct. He was deported to Colombia, where he was put in a low-security mental institution, from where he soon escaped. Nobody's heard from him since then, but his psychiatrist (with whom I met) told me his type of behavior probably wouldn't have changed, although old age would eventually cut down his libido.

Not bad a little over HALF a Month per murder victim. Wonder where he is now? Suppose anyone is looking for him?

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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platano says on May 9, 2006, 21:36:

Bhutan one ups Colombia... The remote Himalayan kingdom of Bhutan is the only country in the world which puts happiness at the heart of government policy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4782636.stm

plátano

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Rubiazo says on May 9, 2006, 21:39:

at UC where do you meet all these immigrants who want to stay in the US so much? I NEVER come across characters like that. Most people I know here are disgruntled and want to move somwhere else, and that even includes some native-born people!

Hell, for some reason practically every Dominican female I know wants to go back to their country. This I don't understand because the DR is a VERY machista place and they really wouldn't have too many opportunities there besides sitting around at home or being a prostitute. But they all wanna go back, for whatever reason or reasons.

Who the fuck said you can't talk about politics or criticise the government in Colombia? Have you ever even fucking picked up a Colombian newspaper? They let em have it with both barrels down there!
As well they should, because those pigs ain't gonna regulate themselves!!

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poco says on May 10, 2006, 08:20:

More Mental Health issues ?
Colombian Mass Murder - Luis Alfredo Garavito Cubillos

For such a small country it seems Colombia comes out on top when it comes to Serial Killers. Must be that great atmosphere that is conducive to the wonderful mental health?

Guess they MIGHT be looking for the first guy that escaped. The article indicates they were attempting to determine which one of these two guys was doing the killing.

In February 1998, 2 naked corpses of children were discovered lying next to each other outside of the town of Genua, Colombia. The location was set on the slope of a hill as most of the other crime scenes. On the next day, only metres away, a third corpse was found, this time in a state of advanced decomposition. All bodies had been tied at the hands. Numerous blood stains could be detected in the area, as well as a knife. The necks of the bodies and the external genitals were deeply cut or severed. A closer investigation of the bodies revealed bite marks and signs of anal penetration; a bottle of lubricant was found, too. Post mortem interval could not be determined; DNA typing of the collected stains could not be performed because of costs. (crap: guess they spent all their money for Coca-Cola picket signs)

Hummm, do they sell meat tenderizer in Colombia?

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Blue says on May 10, 2006, 15:19:

platano Now my guy's quote is pretty self-evident...your guy's much murkier and subject to intrepretation..but I think they are essentially saying the same thing...I was never very good with poetry lol let me know if I'm wrong.

Blue

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platano says on May 10, 2006, 16:45:

Blue, it was your poetry quote that inspired mine. You are right.

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 10, 2006, 17:34:

Rubiazo, I don't know that they want to stay in the US - they want to stay in Texas. Hell, I wouldn't want to stay in most of the US. Even those frigging Louisiana refugees don't want to go back to Louisiana.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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