Marraige in Colombia - Enlighten me

kat1 (Moderator) says on Oct 7, 2006, 03:10:

I haven't got a clue what she is talking about G5 as far as I remember I married in the Catholic church, never went to see a judge, the church issue my marriage certicated.which it said

Arquidiocesis de Bogota
Vicaria Episcopal de la Inmaculada Conception
Parroquia de San Diego
The book where the married is"inscrito"
the page
and number and it said Autenticacion eclesiastica sign by the Parroco with the Authenticacion Stamp

this si a legal document and tell me I am legally married even if i didn't sing anything. that is why we got the witnesses.

so if she married a Catholic church she is legally married.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 7, 2006, 03:28:

maybe what she means is that her marriage was never duly registered at a notary (yes, kat, if you get a church wedding you still have to go to the notary with two witnesses to sign the civil marriage act, otherwise your marriage doesn't show up in the notary books)

Cheers,
Desi

(if you didn't do this you're not legally married to Larry jaja there are going to be a bunch of happy dudes here on PBH )

«Sé que los seres humanos y los peces podrán coexistir en paz». ( George W. Bush, Saginaw 29-09-00)

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Oct 7, 2006, 03:34:

Desi I went to so many places that the church sent me but can't remembered signing anything in front of a judge. mind this was sooooooooo long ago as you said in a galaxy far far away but i am breaking my brain trying to remember and no i can't not remember both together going to a notary. but my certificated of marriage is autenticated. Maybe I am not legally married!!! jijij got to ask my mum :(
Heyy FREE AND SINGLE AGAIN


Not definetely Desi i never went to a notaria wiith any witnesses. i don't think i needed too in my marriage certicated said valid an authenticated by the notaria eclesiatica,and is in the books, because i have the number and the page.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 7, 2006, 03:51:

jajajajajajaja kat maybe you are, maybe you aren't but if you got married before the change in constitution the laws may have been different then.

I know that I had to and this was in a far, far galaxy even further than yours. This was after the church wedding (a couple of days, maybe? I don't remeber exactly either, only that I have photos where we sign at the notary and my in-laws are there and another couple as witnesses).

Cheers,
Desi

«Sé que los seres humanos y los peces podrán coexistir en paz». ( George W. Bush, Saginaw 29-09-00)

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

0 funny, 0 helpful.

famsearch says on Oct 7, 2006, 04:29:

this is what we did... we were married in the church, then a couple of days later, we went to the local registrar's office, and had the wedding registered civilly. we did not have to get married again by a judge, just register it. only wrinkle in our case, was that the process is, if you're getting married in the church, you get married, the paperwork goes from the local parish to the archdiocese, where it is registered, then the archdiocese sends you the official church paperwork. with that in hand, you go to the registrar's office, and have it registered and notarized. with us, we were running out of time, as my sis in law and i were to leave the country in a couple of days, the registrar, bless her heart, said she would register our marriage, on the condition that my wife returns with the church paperwork (at that time, we only had the stuff from the local parish), when she receives it from the archdiocese. so our marriage is legal and binding in the eyes of the catholic church, and the govt's of the u.s. and colombia. so she's really stuck with me... lol
dan

dan

0 funny, 0 helpful.

miamimike says on Oct 7, 2006, 05:04:

Gomezman, this a new law since 2005 in Colombia. Also-a good friend of mine divorced in 2001 in Bogota. It cost $450 then, took two months. The Process was simple--she went to her attorney, filed the papers, Her Husband signed off on the Divorce(he didn't want his name in the paper)he did not contest the Divorce. Two months later the Divorce was granted and she went to the registro Civil in North Bogota and had the Divorce recorded.Pretty easy for most, again this was simple, no kids, no property involved


-----------

Special report: Colombia















60-minute divorce for Colombia's unhappy couples

Kim Housego, Associated Press in Bogot
Wednesday September 28, 2005
The Guardian


Married couples in Colombia will soon be able to untie the knot in as little as one hour and for just $15 (£8.50), bypassing costly lawyers, legal hurdles and the long delays most unhappy couples can expect before a divorce.
Legislation passed by congress in July is expected to be signed into law by the Colombian president, Alvaro Uribe, within weeks, his office said on Monday. "The aim is to make life easier for Colombians," Manuel Cuello, superintendent of the national registrar, told Associated Press. "Getting divorced should not be such a bureaucratic ordeal."


Article continues

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The move is a response to the mounting backlog of divorce cases, said Mr Cuello. More than 1 million couples are waiting for their cases to be settled. Under the new law, couples without young children will no longer have to appear before a judge, but can go to the local registrar office with a jointly signed declaration that will be stamped by an official within one hour. Both parties must agree to the divorce. A separate declaration will spell out division of assets.
For couples with children, custody plans must be explained to a family affairs official, who will authorise the divorce or send the case to court."

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

lpdiver says on Oct 7, 2006, 06:12:

What is it that you are trying to accomplish? Her story makes sense from what my experiences in Colombia were.

tony

"cook some rice!"

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gomezman5 says on Oct 7, 2006, 09:32:

Well,,,,the divorce is not the problem.........yet Thanks Mike for giving the new information about how easy it is for her to get a divorce. I am curious about one part though, and that is the part about the husband having to "sign off". What if he doesn't?

But returning to my original question, if I understand things correctly, after marrying in the church, you still have to go to a notary to register the marraige papers. She mentioned notary and judge in the same sentence so, maybe that is what she said or meant. The point is she did not register her paperwork anywhere. She claims however that even though she did not register her paperwork, she still has to go through the process of divorcing in the same manner as if she had properly registerd her papers with the notary. That does not make sense to me. If the marraige was not consumated in a lawful manner in the first place, then why should she be considered lawfully married at all?

If she is for some strange reason, then ........we return to the issue of what Miamimike brought up, and that is how she will be able to obtain a divorce quickly. She has nothing of value, and the husband has not improved his financial situation during the course of their marraige. No kids either. They were only married about 2 years ago. She just want "out" so to speak.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

lpdiver says on Oct 7, 2006, 09:52:

Gomezman5... What exactly is it that you are trying accomplish, that might lend some clarity.

t

"cook some rice!"

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gomezman5 says on Oct 7, 2006, 10:37:

lpdiver.... or anyone else I am trying to determine the following:

1.If she can be considered lawfully married as a result of a failure to file these papers with the notary after the church ceremoney

2.If she is not, than why does she have to see a notary again, or go through any type of formal divorce process, if in fact she is not married. The woman claims she does have to see a notary and pay a few for something, even though she never actually saw the notary and filed the papers after the church ceremony

3.Since she merely wants a quick divorce, what is the quickest manner for her to accomplish this, and how much more difficult will it be to obtain this divorce if her husband does not desire to agree to give her one?....or sign off on those document that Miamimike mentioned above? What is her remedy in that remedy?

0 funny, 0 helpful.

lpdiver says on Oct 7, 2006, 11:08:

I am still confused... And it is no doubt my fault.

I think the answer to number one depends on if you are approaching from an immigrations aspect, a child support aspect, or a church aspect, or Colombian law.

I am confused as to the number two question. She may or may not have had the papers processed with a notaria. Have her get a recent birth certificate issued. Marraiges and divorces are recorded there. It may have been recorded by a notaria without her knowledge.

The answer to number three is PROBABLY to bribe the husband to sign the papers. Half up front and half upon completion of the divorce. This is what we had to do in my wifes case. we married with a notaria and did not have a church wedding.

I guess my question was if she is trying to marry and immigrate to the USA and whether she has children.

tony

"cook some rice!"

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Oct 7, 2006, 11:47:

Maybe I did what farmsearch did, I never saw a notario though, i just pass the paper to the employees of the notary and voile was authenticanted, never went to a judge either. maybe the church did everything for me.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

miamimike says on Oct 7, 2006, 11:50:

Gomezman, maybe some poster like UC or Gator Could comment. This friend of mine(bogota), when she was first married, took her papers she received from the Catholic Church she was married in 27 years ago in North Bogota, to the registro civil and registered them in 1974. When she got divorced, she went back to the same registro civil to file the divorce decree she recieved from her Attorney's office. Her husband did not contest the divorce, meaning he simply signed off on the divorce otherwise I beleive its like it is here in the USA(just this part of the divorce),if the Husband (or wife) leaves no contactable, mailable address, it is published in a paper for so many weeks and if he did not answer the notice, again it is granted by default or in Absentia. Gomez, here in Florida where I live, its a "no fault divorce State" and two adults can divorce themselves, No attorney is needed for a simple uncontested divorce ; today it costs a little over $200 here in Florida. When we were married, we went to the Marriage Bureau and bought our license maybe cost around $10 at the time. This was Mandatory-you needed the state license first. We then went to the Catholic Church with our License and got married and later it is was recorded in the Florida(state of ) office. This made it legal. When I got divorced in 1991, I went to my attorney(as my wife at contested the divorce at the start) and iniated the Divorce Process. She( my ex) later changed her mind after a month and signed off on any claims she had as she voluntarily deported herself back to Mexico and had to leave the USA. 2 months later I went to the Court and received my Final Divorce and it also was entered in my Florida county of residence(the pinellas county Courthouse) and a few weeks later I received the Divorce Decree(final)by mail, end of story. I beleive the BIG difference here and in Colombia is that here you first must buy your Marriage License First to get married, whether it is only a Civil marriage before a Justice of the peace or if you go to a Church like I did. It seems in Colombia, you DON'T need this State Marriage License first, this comes later from the Church. Again, maybe Gator or UC could better inform you in Colombia about the Process.

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

lpdiver says on Oct 7, 2006, 13:16:

Kat... That was what I was hinting at...a copy of the birth certificate would tell all...right?
t

"cook some rice!"

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gomezman5 says on Oct 7, 2006, 14:37:

Good grief....I'm more confused than ever Well, I know you guys are all trying to help. I think part of the problem is that at this point, I need to take the information that Ihave gotten here so far, and go back and ask her exactly what she did and did not do. Then I can give you a better idea of whatmis happening.

One thing is clear, she does not want to come to the US, or leave Colombia at all for that matter. She has no kids either. She just wants out of a bad situation (according to her)I do think however, it is best that we leave the US proccess out of the equation because it is not any way shape or form similar to the Colombian system. I understand the US system very well.

I also think, as often happens here, two issues are getting merged into one. The first issue is are they legally married in the first place. Both the woman, and her husband readily acknowledge that neither of the two took these papers and recorded/filed them with the notaria. From what I understand from the woman, she admtted to me that they did not, and furthermore they acknowledged that they were unaware of the requirement to do so. This to me makes no sense. That is like saying I did not know I needed a license to drive a car. I know things in Colombia can be strange, but I have a hard time understanding how in a matter as serious as this one, two people, especially after going to a church, that supposedly gave them these papers, had no idea of their obligation to file them with a notaria. This sounds bizare.

In summary, I have to believe that if there is NOT a lawfull marital status conferred upon them, they need not have to obtain a divorce. In other words, how do you lawfully terminate a relationship that was not lawfully entered into in the first place??....(Just some good old fashoned, and common sense G5 logic being set for here)

0 funny, 0 helpful.

lpdiver says on Oct 7, 2006, 16:17:

I just spoke with my paisa wife and she informed me that typically the church DOES register the marriage. Get a copy of the birth certificate and look on the back.

If there are no significant assets and she does not want to leave...well typically they just separate and the paper work never gets done.

What is her burning desire to be divorced?

tony

"cook some rice!"

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gator says on Oct 7, 2006, 17:03:

I Believe... Question # 1. Yes. Colombia and the USA consider this a legal marriage performed in accordance with Colombian law and is recognized under the law of the United States.
("1.If she can be considered lawfully married as a result of a failure to file these papers with the notary after the church ceremony.") However, if you are going to apply for DCF(Direct Consular Filing only available if you are a legal resident of Colombian and have been IN COUNTRY for six months you must supply a escritura pública de matrimonio civil. Church wedding documents are not accepted by the embassy for DCF. In Co;ombia civil marriage is a contract which takes effect upon issuance of the deed of marriage (escritura pública de matrimonio civil), which is issued by a notary public.

Point 2. Since the Catholic Church doe NOT recognize divorce this is a moot point.

Point Three. Go to a notary in the departmento where the wedding was performed. Register the ceremony with the notary and received the escritura pública de matrimonio civil. Which will be a stamp and notary seal on the church's document. Then file for a civil divorce.Under the new law No. 25 of 1992, divorce is now legal in Colombia for both civil and Catholic marriages. Remember-the church will NOT recognize the divorce.

Last but not least-One of you need to consult with a Colombian attorney.





"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gomezman5 says on Oct 7, 2006, 19:22:

Gator Gator and everyone Please FOLLOW WHAT I AM ASKING ABOUT !!!!!! GOOD GRIEF

I know that 99 out of 100 people are asking about divorces in the context of the woman (or man) immigrating to the US or whereever. That is not the case here The embassy has NOTHING to do with what I am asking about...nothing. The United States and recognition of the marraige has NOTHING to do with what I am asking about.

I only am asking about the validity of a marraige if the papers are not recorded. This is what happens all the time on this board. Now, all I have is conflicting information. I have people saying that the church registers the papers automatically and other saying that the parties getting married must go to the notaria. Is there someone who really knows the procedure.....with certainty????BTW, I also realize that if they obtain a civil divorce, she will be unable to get a church divorce. That does not concern the girl.

OK, so I think I have adduced from all this that the girl needs to get a copy of her birth certificate to see if it indicates that she is married. If it does not, than it can safely be said that because she did not go to the notaria to file the papers after the church ceremony, she is not lawfully married. On the other hand if the birth certificate does indicate that she is married, than the church filed the papers with the notaria, and she did not have to file them after the ceremony. That is what I am understanding from all that I have read thus far.

Gator, I don't need to consult a Colombian attorney. I have no interest in this woman or any woman. I am not married and I will never get married. Besides, what idiot would be dumb enough to marry me? She may very well end up having to consult an attorney. However at this time she does not have the funds to consult one. Hence I told her I would throw this question out on this site to see if I could get an answer.

Oh well, I knew this was going to happen. Hey, all know you guys all have the best of intentions, I just can't seem to get an answer that all can agree upon.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

goin_south says on Oct 7, 2006, 20:02:

Strange Brew, Indeed. Didn't you mean deduced, rather than adduced? maybe seduced would actually be more appropriate. what a mess! Does it really state on a birth certificate - in Colombia, I guess, because I don't believe it does in the EEUU - that you are married? Hummmh? I can understand that maybe on your marr(iage) certificate that it may state you were actually born. jeje. But, a birth certificate? to state on it that you were or are married? For real? my god, I believe I am being enlightened, here.

Mr.Gomezman5, that is funny self-deprecating stuff you write, Dude! about what idiot would be stupid enough to marry you? Are you an attorney? or, a comedian? Oh! My God, then she might have to end up consulting with her own husband. You could marry her, and then be kind enough to pay for her attorney fees, and then request a favor, of talking to yourself for gratis. And, if she then also needed psychological counseling, you could simply refer her here, where you have adduced her legal counseling for nothing.

This doesn't seem to be a sight of agreement, but rather a place of many opinions and experiences. You knew this was going to happen? Well, sir, I wouldn't give up just yet. You posted this a little late, and I would bet two bits that there will be yet another plethora of advice posted tomorrow for you to chew up and spew out.

Good luck to you and your ladyfriend.

Sir, you seem an able gent; why no interest in any woman?

Ciao! Gustav. Bienvenitos, Ike.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

miamimike says on Oct 7, 2006, 20:05:

Hey Gomezman, Don't be surprised, Some Strange Things happen in Bogota that you can't believe! They defy reality! I wrote Gator a few months back about a friend of mine who was to be granted US Residency in 1981 via her Father's Petition as a Naturalized Citizen in New York where he settled. The US Embassy in Bogota sent this friend of mine her appt time to finalize the process. Supposedly the Mother never gave her the appt slip that arrived in the mail(supposedly due to her lack of understanding English), nor did the father Press the issue to see if she received the Appointment to get her Papers. Simply the ball was dropped by either the Mom or Dad or who knows, by this friend of mine. BTW, this person is a Dentist, an educated lady so this makes the story even more far fetched! Now both are deceased and she lost the right to US Residency upon the Death of the petitioner, her Father. She went to the US Embassy in Bogota 2 months ago with the newly discovered papers(dated 1981) to see if anything could be done but they told her No.I find this unbelievable but I saw scanned copies of the papers so its true! Strange things happen there that we assume would never happen here in the USA as we get right on these things! I think this friend of yours is being less then honest BTW,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gator says on Oct 7, 2006, 20:38:

To Make It Simple 1. She is married in the Church but not civilly until it, the marriage, is recorded by the notary.

2. Since I went through it with Mrs. Gator I can tell you the Church does NOT record the marriage with the notary.

3. I asked the notary who lives down the hall-the marriage is not valid civilly until filed in the notary's office but is recognized in the church. Since the civil part was never recorded she can let her concise be her guide. The part about having another civil wedding is bullshit.

Sorry you got pissed-I was only trying to help.

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

0 funny, 0 helpful.

miamimike says on Oct 7, 2006, 21:42:

Gator, this is how I understand the Col law to be also Good post! These are the parts I tink she is being less then truthful on: " She told me that to obtain a divorce, she would have to purchase some seal or appear before a notary. *****Furthermore she told me that he would not pay for this procedure, and that she had to pay for it******(what could this cost, a few dollars at the most to legalize your Marriage ???). I don't know what she is talking about in this regard. Then she told me she learned something else. She said she was married to him but not in a legal sense, only in a church sense. She said that in Colombia, *******if you get married in a church, you still have to get married in front of a judge and since she did not marry in front of a judge, her marraige was not a legal one but only a religious one*******(BS-the Priest can legally marry her and later she has to go to the Registro Civil and have it recorded--I doubt anyone could be this dumb(meaning her) not to know this LOL). Here in the States, any member of the clergy has by law, the authority to marry two people from both a legal and a religious perspective at the same time.******(provided you and her obtained a marriage license of the state prior to the marriage ceremony)********

So is this woman correct when she says that a clergyman cannot marry you from a legal perspective, but only form a religious one*****(another falsehood)****, and if she did not appear before the judge, she is not in fact married(more BS put out by her, the Clergyman has the Power to Marry, she has to follow thru and record it in the Registro Civil) This Lady is NOT leveling with you Gomezman; what is her level of Education I would be curious to know?

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gomezman5 says on Oct 7, 2006, 23:36:

Oh Gator......no no I didn't get pissed,.....come on buddy Gator, now you and I go back quite a while on this site. You're one of the last people I can get pissed at.....sorry for the tone. It's just that whenever someone seems to bring up the concept of marraige and/or divorce on this site, its always done in the context of marrying some gringo, and running of to the US. It's almost like a knee jerk reaction.

Hey, I'm Colombian, and I have a lot of friends over there. They sometimes have this crazy idea that because I'm a lawyer here, I have to know how things work there. Wrong! In fact, I would go so far as to say that laymen gringos living in Colombia, and people like Miamimike happen to understand things over there better than I do.

Yea Mike my man, I am begining to believe you are right about this woman,,,,,that she is not leveling with me. But....I'm waiting for the "other shoe to drop." In other words, what is her incentive to lie? I have known her a long time. She has not had a habit of lieing......
Unless, it is her husband that is giving her a bunch of lies and she is believing it. She is kind of gullible. So.....that said, maybe she is buying into what the old man says.

Oh well

0 funny, 0 helpful.

lpdiver says on Oct 8, 2006, 03:53:

I find the whole story strange from "her" point of view. It is not typically the way people approach thing there.

tony

"cook some rice!"

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gator says on Oct 8, 2006, 08:27:

One More Shot. G5, thanks no foul no harm.

"Furthermore she told me that he would not pay for this procedure, and that she had to pay for it."

Her cost to have this done would be, including the 16% TVA(tax) would be $1.160 COP or .48 CENTS in USD. This is the TOTAL recording fee. Hardly and amount to cause problems.

"she still has to go about getting a divorce as if she did legally marriage, and a part of the divorce involves purchasing this seal or notary or something?"

For marriage to be civilly legal in Colombia it MUST be registered with the notary. You can't divorce if there is no record of the Civil marriage. All that is needed is the Certificado de Matrimonio from the Catholic Church(issued by the Gobierno Eclesiastico of the Arquidiocesis). The notary stamp will be on the lower right hand and the church document should also have a certificate of authenticity from the church. If the church document is issued a year before the notary stamp is requested it must be updated with this stamp.

BTW what this document, stamped by the noteria, is used for is to obtain name changes on her passport, cedula, driver license, etc. This, amigo, is a PIA and that is why many women in Colombia do not use their married names for legal documents.




"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

0 funny, 0 helpful.

goin_south says on Oct 8, 2006, 11:47:

damn. It sounds like you almost need an attorney to get married in Colombia!

Ciao! Gustav. Bienvenitos, Ike.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gator says on Oct 8, 2006, 14:35:

¿Porque? No need for an attorney to marry. It is straight forward,

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gomezman5 says on Oct 8, 2006, 16:33:

I think galecito just meant that in jest. When you consider that here in the US, you can hop on a plane to Nevada, and visit a "drive in" in the middle of the night and less than 5 minutes be married, Colombia seems to be representative of the opposite of marrying with such ease

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gator says on Oct 8, 2006, 19:18:

Unless you are a Gringo... the process is rather straight forward. Colombian nationals need: . Birth certificate, notarized, issued within thirty days of the proposed wedding date; Cedula copy notarized; divorce decree or death certificate of former spouse if married before. Cuidado! Official documents need to be issued or re-issued within 90 days of date of marriage. Colombian Civil Notaries and other Colombian government authorities require "fresh" or recently issued official documents, rather than "stale" or old ones, to generate a valid marriage certificate. We found this out when we waited four months to visit the notary in Jamundi . We had to get the church is update the original marriage document.

Do NOT confuse a notary in Colombia with one in the US. These are important people, many are attornies, and have lengthy specialized training. Example: In Cali there are, I believe, less than 25 while San Andres has one. Compare that with the number in Miami-Dade County.

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

0 funny, 0 helpful.