Maria Full Of Grace...hmm

cali373 says on Oct 28, 2005, 10:44:

I think you completely missed what the movie showed about the complicated social issues that plague Colombia. Put an American in the same situation Maria's Character was. A pregnant Poverty level young female(not even lower middle class), who's only option for employment is a shitty minimum wage job with no future; The child's father has no future either. You will find that American making the plane trip as a "mula". The fact that she did not return to colombia to possibly be a "mula" again makes her a non imbecil. I would have to agree that she is an "imbecil" for getting pregnant. but then I also blame that on the Colombian society where education on birth control is rare.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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Crazy4Cali says on Oct 28, 2005, 11:26:

you're both right As someone who's seen a bunch of bad, er, I mean Indie, films, I can understand the critical eye that one develops as a result. Indie films are replete with great stories done poorly (and also bad stories done poorly). So seeing a potentially compelling story with less then a-list acting is going to strike a (pre-sensitized) nerve. (I was a cinematographer for a while so I'm now presensitized to photography errors to the point where I can't continue to watch a movie after I've seen them. They just pull me out of the story.)

I thought the social statement was interesting in that it's not a lifestyle I'm familiar with (thankfully). I thought the acting was OK, but a little "stiff" on the balance. At the same time, I thought the story (looking past the acting) was interesting, however Maria's "decision" to stay in NYC seemed just as impulsive as everything else in her life. I didn't see any big change in her character as a result of her Mula experience. She started out the film as an impetuous teenaage and so she ended the film.

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pepster says on Oct 28, 2005, 11:34:

That's what I got too... Cali373,

I definitely didn't miss the point. I understand the hardship this woman is going through, but I think she was pretty stupid to get pregnant, pretty stupid all around. Just because a person is poor shouldn't mean they should be poor in wisdom as well.

As Crazy4Cali, the movie ended like it started. A woman who doesn't really think through what she does.

The Pepster

"I'm an American and I'm a Colombian. Not neither or either...so deal with it."

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Rubiazo says on Oct 28, 2005, 12:36:

I thought it was the US that was so gung ho about not educating kids about birth control, not Colombia!

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Crazy Eagle says on Oct 28, 2005, 13:28:

If you watch the film a second time with director's commentary "on" you will gain much more insight into the situation in Colombia. I did, anyway.

I think his central point is that poor Colombians are lured into the drug trade because of a lack of other options. And that if the US wants to reduce the number of mules, it should help improve the economic prospects of Colombians. In other words, free trade & investment, instead of attack helicopters and crop spraying.

"If you marry for money, you will earn it." Old folk saying

"The natural rhythm of life is routine punctuated by orgy" Aldous Huxley

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Crazy4Cali says on Oct 28, 2005, 13:51:

Options You'd think the U.S. in it's potentialy infinite wisdom would figure out that the indiginous populations sells drugs because they don't have any options. I was just reading the same story about how the Afganis don't really want to sell heroin (opium) but that's the only thing with a market.

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toneloc24 says on Oct 28, 2005, 13:51:

Pepster If I'm correct, you're comfortably sitting in the USA criticizing a common issue throughout Colombia, and the world moreso. Teenage pregnancy. Don't take this as a slight towards you at all, but it's easy to take shots at the choices that Colombians IN Colombia must make, if you have never been in that situation.

Yes, Maria was impetuous, but how many teenagers aren't? I think what you are missing from the story is the cycle of life in Colombia for those without comfortable means. In choosing the option of helping out her family (not spending lavishly on material things) vs. working in a dead-end job with an unsympathetic boss (remember she really was sick - pregnant), it wasn't an easy decision, but something had to give.

I guess she graduated from school, works a good job in the rose factory, has to give her family her entire paycheck to contribute to the house, while her sister also with a baby doesn't work. Where are the males in this equation and what are their roles? Unfortunately it's a common story in Colombia.

What you're failing to think through is that Maria WANTS to work, she's not looking for a hand-out. She's not a bad person, nor is she stupid. She's trying to provide for her baby. However, Colombia does not offer her the opportunity to strive past that dead-end job. Therefore, the alternatives don't look so bad after all.

If you're going to criticize anything, start with the absolute greed within the Colombian industry and government that forces poor people (approx. 60% of the population) into these situations. If people can't feed themselves by legitimate means, you CANNOT blame them if they feed themselves by any means necessary.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

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pepster says on Oct 28, 2005, 14:03:

ToneLoc "She's not a bad person, nor is she stupid. She's trying to provide for her baby."

I though she found out she was pregnant after she arrived to the US?

"Where are the males in this equation and what are their roles? Unfortunately it's a common story in Colombia."

It's a common problem in all of Latin America including the US, not just Colombia. In this case, I have very little pity. She can't "feed" herself, yet she's going to bring another human being into the equation? I'm sorry, poverty may not be in the control of the individual, but getting pregnant is in their control. That's where the stupid comment came from.

I cannot blame them for trying to feed themselves, but smuggling and other reckless acts can't always be the option.

The Pepster

"I'm an American and I'm a Colombian. Not neither or either...so deal with it."

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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cam0940 says on Oct 28, 2005, 14:50:

She knew she was pregnant before she left. Remember the scene when she told her boyfriend and they talked about maybe getting married? But in the end broke up? So she knew. Remember abortion is illegal in Colombia. So it's either carry the baby full term or come up with some other plan. Sick at the rose factory, boss riding her case, even when she does get her check the sister and mom were constantly in her pocket.... She was in a tough situation. Then the young, cool guy with money in his pocket shows up and plants this seed in her head that may help her problem... had to look pretty good to her under the circumstances.

There is a fine line between between stupidity and irresponsibility. Remember this girl was what 17 or 18? Is it realistic to expect her to infallibly make responsible decitions (e.g. birth control)? Not trying to excuse what she did, but I understand.

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pepster says on Oct 28, 2005, 14:52:

cam0940 Oh, ok I remember now...thanks cam0940.


The Pepster

"I'm an American and I'm a Colombian. Not neither or either...so deal with it."

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Caballista says on Oct 28, 2005, 15:53:

that movie was made to make money and not to present any good or bad thing about a social situation in Colombia.

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cam0940 says on Oct 28, 2005, 17:20:

Caballista... I watched the movie looking to be entertained. I didn't go into it expecting a social study, or to come out with some deeper understanding of conditions in Colombia. The analysis by some of the earlier posters was all news to me, too.

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2005, 10:19:

Maria The story line was written by an American, the movie was filmed in Ecuador. The only thing Colombian about the movie was the main cast and the fact that it dealt with drug mules. To me the movie had the feel of a coloful fence that was whitewashed, it lost a lot of the Colombian spontaneity, the slang, the spicy colombian humour. It was almost robotic.

The storyline bordered on the naive. The bad guys that gave Maria back her money even after she ran off with the pellets were almost cartoonish, a mockery of a real life Colombian thug. That part of the story might as well have been written by a 5th grader.

The movie was watchable and it did strike a nerve, but I walked out feeling like somebody had put up this cheap mirror in front of colombia and told us "hey, here, here boy, this is what you look like".

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Rubiazo says on Oct 29, 2005, 10:52:

For the record My gf hated that film (i have not seen it and probably won't bother). She said basically what you said Colombiche, that it was a real one-dimensional piece of work.

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adrimm says on Oct 29, 2005, 11:43:

An an expression of something I think that the movie did successfully convey what it intended to, and I don't think that a look at Colombia was the intention, rather it was the telling of a story of someone getting caught up in a situation. For those of us that know Colombia it is important to keep in mind that although it may not be Colombia as many of us know it, for a typical non-Colombian audience the scenes of life shown were definitly different from Hollywood Colombia.

My mother liked the story sort of from a voyeuristic, this-is-how-it-might-happen POV, but even in the opening scenes of the town, she commented to me that it didn't look like a Colombian town to her. In the end she thought it was an interesting film, but not really very Colombian.

I agree with Colombiche about the mirror... the movie builds out (in a more realistic way than Hollywood), one of those unfortunate things about Colombia that Hollywood loves to put the spotlight on. I also found it sometimes vacant and pained (what a miserable protagonist), but in my experience with artsier film the difference between vacant and subtle can be somewhat grey, and in the eye of the beholder.

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go2pr says on Oct 29, 2005, 13:21:

Personnaly i've been liking much more 'Perder es cuestion de metodo'.

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2005, 13:39:

I liked Rosario Tijeras.. Now that girl was baaaad! She is my hero!!!!!

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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go2pr says on Oct 29, 2005, 14:22:

Rosario Tijeras Yep.

That's an astonishing movie from what I heard.

Can't wait to see it !!

Cheers

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CuriosJoe says on Oct 31, 2005, 09:38:

Usted I noticed in the movie they addressed each other using "Usted" even when speaking to friends, and I never heard "tu", is this normal in Colombia? thank you.

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pepster says on Oct 31, 2005, 09:48:

Curios Joe Actually, I was shocked that didn't use "vos". That would fall in line with that area in the country.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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rjstuff says on Oct 31, 2005, 13:52:

I saw it in Cartagena in February with my fiancee - we both liked it (I had no problem understanding the story even with my extremely limited Spanish.) I thought it was an above average movie, well worth seeing because it presents a different view of life (that of a very poor girl in Colombia.) Well done! And cudos!

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CuriosJoe says on Oct 31, 2005, 14:31:

I thought it was a very good movie also. What's with the Usted anyway, what part of Colombia is that? In Cartagena a paisa I met told me "estabas fumando" and I am pretty sure used "tu".

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Lucia Rojas says on Oct 31, 2005, 14:45:

Yes. We invert the use of the usted and tu all the time. We do use it when we are speaking to people we don't know... but we also use it with loved ones. We can sometimes be talking with a friend using tu and then suddenly switch to usted which gives a different tone or emphasizes something. Sometimes we switch to usted if we are angry at someone. Men in Bogota speak to each other in usted. Costeños use tu all the time with everybody. Paisas use vos and usted. Caleños use vos. Boyacos use sumerce sometimes: A sumerce le gusta la papa?

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Shanidar says on Nov 5, 2005, 04:16:

Tu-Usted-Vos with my paisa, Usted was a sure sign she was pissed off. But she used the excuse that it was more respectful. Don't miss her, but I missed Colombia so much, I moved here...
Never heard vos used....

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 5, 2005, 04:55:

Caleños and voceo While it's true that you hear "vos" used widely in Cali it's still frowned upon by the more traditional caleños who wouldn't dream of using it. It's "Usted", even when between the spouses and when spoken with the children of the family. I know people who use "Usted" when talking to their dog! "Usted" is the norm when you speak with older people and people that you don't know.

The voceo is something of a newer development in Valle, especially in Cali where lots and lots of paisas from the northern valle and antiguo Caldas moved into after the period of violence in the fifties and they brought the voceo with them. Voceo is the norm for the younger generation from the poorer barrios and only among peers.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 5, 2005, 06:30:

This is one of the things that is aggravating about Spanish, the entire tu-usted-vos thing. In English it's just plain old "you", nothing could be simpler. Even in French there is a consistency about which form to use and it is very clear whether you should use "tu" or "vous". But Spanish is all over the map!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 5, 2005, 09:41:

In Latin even a slave would address the Emperor with 'tu'. All that third party stuff is simply the influence of the christian church.

I generally use 'usted' if it's somebody I don't know, and once I get to know them a little bit, I switch to 'tu'. If they don't like it they can just write me off as a rude foreigner if they wish! I'm certainly not giving somebody respect just because they are a couple years closer to wearing Depends than I am.

UC thank your lucky stars you are not learning Brazilian Portuguese. It is even more insane!

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rjstuff says on Nov 5, 2005, 12:28:

Interesting twist In Hindi (Indian) we have the same thing usted = aap; tu = tum. It's common practice to use usted (aap) with elders and people whom you do not know and tu (tum) with younger people and friends. I found the usage pretty easy to understand (but I have a hard time thinking of the right words at times) - I think in English (it was automatic after 1 or 2 years of living here) so I am slow in speaking any other language now. I wonder if some other languages also evolved to make this or similar differentiation?

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 5, 2005, 12:33:

Your use of usted and tu in your post does not seem to correspond with the Colombian usage. Your aap and tum appear to be analagous to the French tu and vous. As Desi points out, depending where you are, the familiar form of "you" in Spanish may be tu, usted or vos. Aaaaaaaaaaaargh!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 5, 2005, 12:39:

We make the same distinction in Swedish: ni =Usted, Ustedes, vosotros; du= tu. Almost nobody uses *ni* any longer; it's perfectly acceptable to use *du* in all occasions. If somebody said *ni* to me, I swear I'd look around to see if I had forgotten I had brought somebody else with me.

I think this tu/Usted/vos is confusing too; what is even worse that I do know how to use them but tend to interchange them even as speaking. I might start adressing somebody with a respectful Usted and the just switch into the more familiar mode and use tu even in the same sentence. Another common error I commit in Spanish is the overuse of the reflexive verb.

My kids commented once that when they were visiting the grandparents in Cali grandmother pretended not to hear them if they adressed her with *tu*

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 5, 2005, 17:05:

and what happens to su merced?
eg: su merced quiere un tintico

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platano says on Nov 5, 2005, 17:57:

I thought sumerced was used more in Cundinamarca and Boyaca... In Cali and Medellin the crowd I ran with always used vos. When I met someone I would use Usted until they used tu then I would switch to tu. When we became amigos bacanos we switched to vos. When I went to Cundinamarca or Boyaca I used sumerced.

It was never confusing.

plátano

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 5, 2005, 18:07:

The crowd "In Cali and Medellin the crowd I ran with always used vos..."

Of course, that was only when frog-marching you through the jungle...

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Monpirri says on Nov 5, 2005, 18:28:

Su merced Yes, I have heard "Su Merced" a lot in Bogotá, also in the soap opera, "Pedro el Escamoso" eg. Su merced, donde queda un buen restaurante de carnes asadas?
I wonder how this phrase originated? Does it mean, your majestic?

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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platano says on Nov 5, 2005, 18:44:

Mr. H., regarding use of tu, vos, Usted and Sumerced... The same approach applied with the guerrillas. By tuning into the conversational flow one can tell what form to use. On the first day of the kidnapping it was Usted. Later it changed to tu. We never got to vos since they all used aliases and they were holding the guns... I never came to feel they were friends.

About frog marching. Actually we walked at night and I would be between two guerrillas and they gave me the flashlight (very kind of them) but there was one flashlight for three of us so I would swing my arm forward and backward illuminating the way for all three of us.

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 5, 2005, 20:39:

So, Platano, you think this convoluted system of addressing people is simpler than just calling everyone "you" no matter who they are or where you are? It's rather egalitarian in my opinion.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on Nov 5, 2005, 22:24:

UTC, Calling everyone you may appear to be simpler but is actually more confusing. It can be used as a singular third person, a plural second person, or a plural third person. Of course, in San Antonio you take care of one of those with the ubiquitous y'all.

plátano

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Rubiazo says on Nov 5, 2005, 22:37:

Sumerced is SOOO corny Thats what you are supposed to call an archbishop, for chrissakes!!!
Talk about putting on some airs. "usted" is actually short for "vuestra merced" BTW.
In 7 weeks in Bogota not once did I hear that and I probably woulda fell over laughing if I did.
When somebody starts using "usted" and "vos" with me I ask them to "tutea" and cut the crap! I feel very uncomfortable with people using honorifics with me, who the hell am I anyway? The only time I like to use them and have them used is with complete strangers.
My gf was interviewing for roommates when I was there. She used 'tu' all the time with all these strangers calling. She explained that because they were all women, one would use 'tu' in Bogota, but if they were of the opposite sex, one would use 'usted'. Whatever.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 6, 2005, 05:35:

Well, Platano, if you find using "one size fits all" too difficult, there is always the French method, tu for the informal and vous for the formal or plural. I don't find that confusing at all. Hell, sometimes I'll ask my wife if I should be saying usted, vos, or tu and she doesn't even know! And she considers herself the expert on everything. I think it's damm confusing and if the truth be told, I think even the Spanish speakers find it confusing.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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pepster says on Nov 6, 2005, 08:59:

Utopiacowboy "This is one of the things that is aggravating about Spanish, the entire tu-usted-vos thing. In English it's just plain old "you", nothing could be simpler. Even in French there is a consistency about which form to use and it is very clear whether you should use "tu" or "vous". But Spanish is all over the map!

I respectfully, totally disagree with you.

English is all over the map.

Not necessarily with the "you" term.

We have dozens of way of saying the samet hing and have words pronounced IDENTICALLY and spelled differently.

Knowing both languages perfectly, english has the most ridiculous grammatical rules and structure of the two.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 6, 2005, 09:05:

On the issue of spelling and grammatical rules, I agree with you, Pepster. English is zany! You don't realize how zany until you have someone like my wife trying to learn it and she wants you to explain the inexplicable. In fact my wife asked me how kids could even know how to spell something in an English spelling bee. I told her that they have to give them an example of the word used in a sentence and even then it's a challenge.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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paisa loca says on Mar 2, 2006, 16:29:

personallly tbis movie made me cry my eyes out.. my little colombian almond eyes that is

jeje ;]

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Wastelandlive says on Mar 2, 2006, 16:57:

I thought "Perder es cuestion de metodo"... ... was actually a little sadder.

Any other rec's on good Colombian movies?

Wasteland

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costajunkie says on Mar 2, 2006, 17:53:

Not completely impressed I liked "Maria, Llena Eres de Gracia" - but only "liked", not "loved"... though I believed Catalina Sandino Moreno was wonderful, especially for one with so little acting experience. I hope to see more of here in the future. From what I read, it seems that she is sort of sitting back, looking at offers, but not being too eager to take the first role offered, more concerned about improving her craft.

It seems that the people making the most noise about this are those outside Colombia. However, many people I know (colombianos) - my wife included - were not very impressed (as was the same with many in this thread. They thought it was sort of formulaic. On the other hand, anytime the mention of this movie is made, my wife would rather talk and laugh over the send-up of this movie on a comedy program (something on Caracol I believe) - "Maria, llena eres de grasa"...

I like some of what I have seen from Sergio Cabrera... "Perder es cuestion de metodo" was OK, and it had a nice production value compared to most colombian films, but I liked his "Golpe de estadio" much better.

I heard "Rosario Tijeras" was a great movie - again, from the people I know. It was sort of at the end of its run when I was there in October, but I was in the middle of the book, and I refused to see it until the book was done... and I LOVED the book!!!

Hmmm... I can't think of any other exceptional colombian films off the top of my head right now. However, if you like depictions of hard-edged Andean life, then an ecuatoriano film - "Ratas, ratones, rateros" is a good one. I remember seeing this about 6 years ago with my ex-novia guayaquilena. I was quite surprised and impressed when seeing this, which gives a great depiction of life from the underbelly of society. I even saw it a few years later in the US on TV HBO latino or something like this. Check it out if it is available.

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