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Literary Discussion?

I love Garcia's writing, and especially more so now I've been here and realise how much the Bogatanos look down on the Costenos. A bit like the way the English look down on the Scots and the Irish, in spite of the best writers and poets coming from the Celtic countries. Prior to Gabito, the whole world associated Colombia with corrupt politics and excessive violence, and now... ok, people who read associate Colombia with these things AND a thriving intellectual culture. And what must really get up the nose of the establishment about him is that he hailed not from the cultural centres of Bogota and Medellin, but emerged like the proverbial swamp monster from the backwaters of Magdalena. With one deft and gentle sweep of his pen, Garcia put Colombian culture on the map. Or rather, he put Coastenyo culture on the map, so that the whole of the literate world thinks that costenyo culture is Colombian culture. Which must give the Costenos some sense of satisfaction.

I really want Gabito to continue to be a national hero, albeit from his Mexican distance, and write another good book. I don't want - desperately don't want “Memories of my Melacholy Whores” to be his last. Its not a bad book exactly its just...well...let's just say that he's lost his falorum, his dingdorum .. you know.

The book might as well been entitled “I'm a Old Rogue but I can Still Get It Up. Honest. No Really, I Can."

It would make me rather sad if he didn't write another book because I was hoping that one day he'd write a book which demonstrated an understanding of women. I've noticed that women in his books, with the exception of Fermina and Leona in “Love in the Time of Colera” seem one-dimensional: they are either dreaming or fast asleep, and flit through his writing with all the “magic” but none the “realism”. Their voices – or rather their moods and thoughts since he doesn't do dialogue – are strangely muted throughout his work. I think this is one of the reasons why I think El Amor was his best book, because both the male and female characters were three-dimensional.

What do you think?

[Now for Scotty's information, ('cos he gets annoyed at my posts for some reason bless his little cotton socks, and will probably write something nasty again) the subject of this post is Gabriel Garcia Marquez , a very famous Colombian writer, who won the Nobel Prize for literature for his book One Hundred Years of Solitude, which was originally written in Colombian Spanish, and set in a mythical Colombian town. He gets up the nose so much of the Colombian establishment by espousing inconvenient Colombian politics, so much so that he now lives in Mexico where he can be a political inconvenience and a national hero for Colombians at the same time. So a discussion of his writings can quite cheerfully belong on a Colombian message board, right next to my post about Colombian methods of attracting female attention; ok sweetie?]

By CaritadeAngel on May 8, 2007, 19:51 in Friendly Talkzone.

slguy says on May 8, 2007, 20:39:

CA I am ashamed to admit that I have not read any of his works, although I have known of him for years. Your post will change this. Tomorrow I go buy something by him - although I am not sure I can struggle through his original spanish- I am not fluent enough yet, I fear.

You get to choose the book I buy.;) I'll be waiting for your decision.
slguy

Now I don't have to tell you good folks what's been happening in our beloved little town. Sheriff murdered, crops burned, stores looted, people stampeded, and cattle raped. The time has come to act, and act fast. I'm leaving.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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David in Idaho says on May 8, 2007, 20:50:

I had to read two of his books in college as an English major, but of course, in English: A Hundred Years of Solitude and Chronicle of a Death Foretold. Now that I'm pretty fluent in Spanish, I have purchased Cien Años de Soledad but haven't yet braved it up to start reading. (The only other book I've read cover to cover in Spanish was Harry Potter! So, I'm in for a big step up.) In English, at least, he struck me as a Latino Hemingway, a "man's man" as you point out slguy. This machismo does make it hard to handle female characters with anything close to sensitivity. (Sensitive Macho is the oxymoron of the century!) Of course, being Latino, he couldn't resist the urge to mystify his tales with something of the supernatural. I expect in Spanish it will be a good, albeit long read.

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goin_south says on May 8, 2007, 22:26:

slguy... go to Barnes & Noble or your favorite local bookseller and you likely will find some of his works...EN INGLES.
I bought his most recent ... something about ALL MY SAD WHORES... but, I can't say that I have sat down to read it yet. Maybe on the beach in Destin for the Fourth, ...esperando por Jorge y su esposa.

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kalder says on May 9, 2007, 00:45:

I agree with Rubito. It may well be the fact that I'm missing something, but I find Marquez boring. The whole magical realism thing thoroughly fails to engage. And his straight journalism is (to me anyway) prose of the most bromidic stamp.

BTW: It's been a long time since the English have looked down on the Irish and Scots. It seems to me that the English fall over themselves in their gormless wonderment at the alleged romance and 'soul' of the Celtic Fringe.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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aztec says on May 9, 2007, 05:19:

Anyone here read... ...Delirium by Colombian author Laura Restrepo?

She was the director of the Institute of Culture and Tourism in Bogotá, but resigned soon after receiving the Alfaguara Prize for her novel Delirium. It has since been translated into English.

In the 60's she dabbled in left wing politics, and spent time in Spain and Argentina where she was part of the underground resistance.

Probably not in the league with Garcia's writing but for personal reasons would like to read this novel. Any recommendations? Is it full of leftest philosophy?

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JMCana says on May 9, 2007, 05:44:

Pointed out and not fixed True, reading Gabo can be a challenge depending upon what you read him for and what you enjoy. I believe I am up to about 4 or 5 of his many books now. What I find interesting is that in many of his stories,in a back door way, he has pointed out flaws and faults of the Colombian government. They are there for the world to see, but the Colombian government seems to have done little to nothing to correct these blemishes that Gabo held up to the world's mirror.

Example - In the book, No one writes to the Colonel, the pension never comes. I have interviewed two people who recently retired. It took one of them 13 months to get their pension and it took the other 2 years. And they both told me that the government kept saying, "Wait, it is in process." The book quickly came to my mind as I believe the same phrase was used there.

I also enjoy the way he introduces all the senses for the scene.

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podborski says on May 9, 2007, 05:49:

I tried to read 100 years of solitude on a long plane ride. I just couldn't do it, booorrrring. It was more interesting to stare at the seat in front of me.

The guy must be revered by the 'intellectuals' just because he's an old communist.

Amazing to me how people seem to get respect just for being old (like some seem to think Castro (Marquez' good buddy) is a nice little old man, despite the fact he destroyed a country.)

(Read 'Freakonomics', and learn why crack dealers live with their mothers, now that's at least interesting.)

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David in Idaho says on May 9, 2007, 05:56:

Como Agua Para Chocolate Now this was a great book, in my opinion. And talk about "introducing the senses!" I'm sure a lot of you saw the movie, "Like Water For Chocolate," which was even good in English. I've also read the book in English, and I think I'll have to get around to reading it in the original sometime. But before I lead this thread astray, I guess I should remind myself that it is Mexican and has nothing to do with Colombia. Sorry.

How about an author named Andrés Berger Kiss? He is Colombian, of Hungarian parents who fled to Colombia when Andrés was a young child. Now he lives in Oregon and writes novels, short stories, and poems. I've talked with him on the phone a few times and bought several of his books, which he kindly autographed. All of the money he makes from his books he sends to Colombia to support charities. Anyone heard of him? (Gotta love his name.)

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David in Idaho says on May 9, 2007, 06:03:

Podborski, maybe that's way it is titled 100 Years of Solitude. Maybe he knew most of his readers would need to be alone for a century to get through the book.

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CaritadeAngel says on May 9, 2007, 06:58:

Como Agua?
David, you have to be kidding. The thing reads like something out a woman's magazine. The ideas in Como Agua Para Chocolate are luminous, and in the hands of someone who could actually write it would have been wonderful - I enjoyed the movie a lot, but was really disappointed when I read the book. Laurita writes like a third rate mills and boons "novelist", and the Law of Love was equally pedestrian. And I tried that recipe for Quails in rose salsa and NOTHING happened. Tip. Don't eat attar of roses. Instead, dilute it in a base of sweet almond oil with a little ylang-ylang or jasmine. Then apply it with firm but gentle sweeps on the body of your beloved. This works.

100 Years is more of a feeling than a story, and like most Nobel books it was chosen for is groundbreaking orginality, (William Golding's "The Inheritors" is another book, that while amazing, is not a particularly easy read. While I liked it very much, you have to be in a certain frame of mind - almost an altered state - to read it.

As for the marxism: well, they say the heart of a poet always beats on the left. In reality though, the storytellers in a society always point out injustice or hipocracy, and marxism has its own particular seductions: it lends itself a certain passion, romanticism and poetry - though like all false religions it becomes a hypocritical tyrnany in the end. The storytellers: be they artists, poets, commedians, journalists or novelists, are drawn naturally to the truth, and to exposing or tormenting injustice and hypocracy. I don't think that it matters which regime is in power. Left or Right, authority despises them.

Which is why, of course, the storytellers are first against the wall come the revolution.

"Five things bring us closer to the unseen: the act of love, the birth of a baby, being in the pressence of death or disaster, the contemplation of great art, and the human voice lifted in song".

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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AnaMaria says on May 9, 2007, 07:31:

Aztec I recently finished Delirium by Laura Restrepo and it is amazing, one of the best books I have read in a while...It describes colombian society at its best, and that might be the reason why only colombians seem to enjoy this book...give it a chance.

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aztec says on May 9, 2007, 07:51:

Thanks, AnaMaria, what I hoped. I plan to pick it up today.

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David in Idaho says on May 9, 2007, 07:57:

You are very sophisticated Carita Well, you're the only person I know who has actually tried any of the recipes in the book. I do a lot of quail hunting so I'm always looking for new ways to prepare game. I haven't tried the rose recipe, but with your advice, I may give it a shot. How did you manage to come up with such an elaborate solution? Also, did you read the book in Spanish or English? Maybe the reason I liked it was that my girlfriend (at the time) and I read it out loud, a chapter a night. We found it entertaining and sensual. And it didn't insult the intelligence the way a cheesy romance novel does. In other words, it stimulated the imagination instead of just replacing it. I'm curious to know if your critique of the author is directed solely at her, or if something was lost in translation. But again, we're hijacking this Colombian thread with a discussion of a Mexican book. Maybe we should just drop it.

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kalder says on May 9, 2007, 09:06:

CA "....they say the heart of a poet always beats on the left."

'They' obviously haven't heard of T.S.Eliot, Roy Campbell, Ezra Pound, W.B.Yeats, Alfred Tennyson, Giuseppe Ungaretti, Gabriele d'Annunzio, José María Pemán...

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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JMCana says on May 9, 2007, 09:19:

Left - Right Kalder - not meaning to start an argument by any means, just going for information. But you did get me thinking and reviewing in my head some of the above mentioned authors writings. For instance I thought Pound to be a little bit left. Then I found this quote about the man.

"Toward the ends of the war, incidentally, Pound came to identify himself as a leftist Fascist."

It came from this web site: http://www2.hawaii.edu/~lady/ramblings/pound2.html

Actually I believe many good writers (though not all obviously) to describe to an extent that they can perceived either way at different times.

But to get back to Colombia, what Colombian writers show tendencies to the right or the left and what in their writing supports that?

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kalder says on May 9, 2007, 09:27:

JM You have a point... What, indeed, do 'left' and 'right' mean? Is Fascism one or the other or bit of both? And so on. They're notoriously amorphous terms.

But if you asked the above scribblers if they were for or against Marxism (for instance), I'm pretty certain they would have said the latter. Some extraordinarily vehemently as well!

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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JMCana says on May 9, 2007, 09:28:

Both right and left to give credence to my statement of a writer being able to be perceived different at different times, I found this about T.S. Elliot.

"Second, Eliot's citation of the novel's politics as grounds for rejecting it must have recalled to Orwell the very kind of "confusion of ideology and literary value" he had previously found in critics on the left. Once, an objection to ideological criticism had motivated Orwell to defend Eliot against the leftist intelligentsia; now Eliot is the one making ideological judgments, effectively aligning himself with his former enemies. In a July 1949 letter to Sir Richard Rees, Orwell criticizes Eliot for precisely the same thing he had once shielded him against, citing him as a key example of a critic whose judgments betray political biases (CEJL IV, 504-05)."

It is from the web site of: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0403/is_n2_v43/ai_20563362/pg_8

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la_colombiana says on May 9, 2007, 09:32:

off to the left or the right... In my rare moments of leisure I am making my way through Oriana Fallaci Se Entrevista a Si Misma: El Apocalipsis - one of her last angry rants before she succumbed to cancer in her little Upper East side house.

What really fascinates me about this woman is the mix of pro-west, quasi-xenophobic christian values all neatly wrapped inside a rebellious, feminist, narcissitic package. Sometimes so off to the right she can fall off the face of the earth. She was a walking contradiction.

I know this discussion is supposed to be about Gabo, but the likes of Yeats and d'Annunzio were brought up.

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kalder says on May 9, 2007, 09:36:

I read Oriana Fallaci's polemic last year. I think you could describe her as being a 'classical' liberal, that is: of the centre.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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la_colombiana says on May 9, 2007, 09:44:

Perhaps so but she certainly posessed a healthy dose of visceral fortitude.

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pedro (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 9, 2007, 11:20:

Lately I notice myself reading a lot of pow wow's work.

I find his use of soliloquy to be a particularly powerful literary device.

With a few short, questionably spelled paragraphs, he manages to evoke a very real sense of dystopia. The Colombian wife character is an ever present menace in his work, reminding us of the privileged classes and their domination of the working poor.

Pow wow is Kafka's legitimate literary heir.

"this may seem a strange post but it is not...when in colombia men need to be aware that colombia women may try to be seductive and entice a travelling gringo to have sex with them..to be forewarned is to be forearmed..." -- pow wow

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Man Tequila says on May 9, 2007, 11:35:

The work of pow wow, much like that of UtopiaCowboy, contains much unselfconscious expression, that of the child who has not yet inherited the centuries and the savage whose identity with his environment has not yet become a prey to civilization, which --eminent aestheticians to the contrary -- is of the utmost significance to aesthetics....these demand for their complete appreciation that, far from being mere spectators, we allow our intelligences to be digested; and not until this occurs do they cease to excite in us amusement or mépris, and reveal their significance. That is to say, they require of us an intelligent process of the highest order, namely the negation on our part, by thinking, of thinking; whereas in an "art" which emulates naivété through intelligent processes the case is entirely different....the inexcusable and spontaneous scribblings which children make on sidewalks, walls, anywhere, preferably with coloured chalk, cannot be grasped until we have accomplished the thorough destruction of the world. By this destruction alone we cease to be spectators of a ludicrous and ineffectual striving and, involving ourselves in a new and fundamental kinesis, become protagonists of the child's vision, or lack thereof.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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la_colombiana says on May 9, 2007, 12:43:

Berger Kiss? Berger kiss!! that sounds like something you tell somebody when you are pissed off.

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la_colombiana says on May 9, 2007, 12:45:

sorry Please continue on with the intellectual convo.

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Cockney Colombian says on May 9, 2007, 14:30:

CA, if he hasn't demonstrated an understanding of women to your liking so far, it's probably unlikely he will in his last hoorah.

Have you read his autobiography? It might illiminate on his take on women.

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 9, 2007, 14:59:

I had read El Coronel no tiene quien le escriba and el general en su laberinto both from Gabo, i have never read 100 years of Solitude maybe because the book is too fat that scare me heheh, but i do want to read amor en los tiempos del colera.

I just finished reading Maria de Jorge isaac, it was ok, too romantic for my taste.

I like reading books from German Castro Caycedo, I just finished reading El Hueco, now there is another book written by him called Las Brujas that would be my next reading after I finish my present one called affluenza by Oliver James not colombian thought.;)

http://www.lablaa.org/blaavirtual/publicacionesbanrep/boletin/boleti1/bol36/resen14.htm

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Mr. Hollywood says on May 9, 2007, 15:02:

I would advise "Love in the Time of Cholera" as a first Gabo read. Also some of his short stories.

Do NOT try to read "Cien Años de Soledad" in Spanish unless you are VERY fluent. He's a guy who definately never chose to use one word when three would suffice, and the book itself is extremely complex.

The English translations of Gabo's work are quite good so you need not worry about losing too much by reading him in translation.

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escuelaguy says on May 9, 2007, 15:03:

His Colombian roots aside, Gabriel Garcia Marquez is one of the greatest literary figures this world has ever seen.

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escuelaguy says on May 9, 2007, 15:04:

The english do not look down upon anyone, scots and irish included, even those damn spitting welsh!

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Cockney Colombian says on May 10, 2007, 02:11:

I agree with Mr. H as to Love in the Time of Cholera being a great place to start, One Hundred Years has the reputation but it's also quite a struggle to get into at first.

Or dip into one of the short story collections for a flavour, my personal favourites are Tuesday Siesta, One Of These Days and Eva Is Inside Her Cat

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Cerealkiller says on May 10, 2007, 02:22:

Im not huge on Garcia Marquez but i think that if anyone is getting started on his literature they should probably go for the shorter stories like "Doce Cuentos Peregrinos" or "Cronica de una muerte anunciada" Just to get used to his style and decide whether you like it or not without wasting much time.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Cockney Colombian says on May 10, 2007, 02:39:

I've just bought Doce Cuentos Peregrinos (Only in English!) but not started reading it yet. In the intro GGM says it took 18 years for him to turn his initial inspiration into the collection of stories it eventually became.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 10, 2007, 06:44:

I'd recommend Los Funerales De La Mama Grande / Big Mama's Funeral for a Garcia Marquez newbie. It's a collection of short stories, required reading in many Colombian schools and colleges.

Castro Cayzedo's La Bruja is good, kat. Little too realistic at times, for my taste, but it does give us a pretty accurate picture of the Colombian political establishment and society at the turn of the century. Makes me kind of glad that I had already emigrated from Colombia at the time.

I can't for the life of me understand why somebody would think Cien Años de Soledad boring. I thought it was world-class entertainment from page one.

Cheers,
Desi

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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CaritadeAngel says on May 10, 2007, 13:02:

Yes I have read his autobiography
and yes it does illuminate his take on women. I almost expected a Darth Vader type character to pop up half-way through, breathing like Neil Armstrong...

Tchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-Huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh Tchccccccccccccccccccccccccch- Huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch. You should not have gone there old man! Tchhhhhhhhhhhhhh-Huchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. The Madonna-Whore dichotomy is Strong with this one!

I think our Gabito just doesn't get women. He even admitted that he couldn't connect the woman-as-lover role with woman-as-mother.

"Five things bring us closer to the unseen: the act of love, the birth of a baby, being in the pressence of death or disaster, the contemplation of great art, and the human voice lifted in song".

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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InterestedObserver says on May 12, 2007, 13:37:

hmmm Just to address a couple of incorrect assumptions by the OP.

English people don't look down on Scots at all. Some might do but then again some look down on everyone. If English people looked down on Scots then we wouldn't be about to have a Scottish PM-in-waiting about to replace a Scots-born Prime Minister. Some Scots no doubt look down on the English. However that wouldn't lead me to say that the Scottish therefore look down on the English. In fact Scots and English generally get on well these days. We cheer for them at football and they cheer for the team playing England. Ah well..all friendly banter these days anyway.

As for "in spite of the best writers and poets coming from the Celtic countries" that is just such a load of rubbish. They do have a great literary tradition but so does England. Shakespeare, Dickens, Elliot, Orwell, Austen, Golding, the Brontes etc etc. I'm a big fan of Scottish lit myself, particularly RL Stevenson, but no need to try and denigrate all the superb English authors.

As for Garcia Marquez...I agree that 'Memories of Melancholy Whores' was a huge let-down and there is something incredibly seedy about the ancient 90-year old paedophile wanting to deflower a 14 year-old. Not only that but the very idea of falling in love with a sleeping girl is just taken to preposterous extremes. It wouldn't be a good last work for GGM but apparently he is currently working on the second volume of his memoirs so it shouldn't be.

'Love in the Time of Cholera' is my favourite novel by GGM so far as it is wonderfully written and is so patiently built up that it is a very moving tale and is almost lyrical in segments. It can be easy to forget it is prose at its best I felt. Personally I liked it far more than "Hundred years..."

I'm about to read 'The General in his Labyrinth' and 'Strange Pilgrims'.

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CaritadeAngel says on May 12, 2007, 14:55:

The Brontes were from Northern Ireland... They just happened to live in Yorkshire.

I never said there weren't good writers from England. I said that the best "English" writers are of celtic stock: Orwell, Goldsmith, CS Lewis, Oscar Wilde, etc etc. Its something to do with the oral tradition. El Rey, who will never be on a thread discussing books, will probably make a comment about my "oral tradition", so I shall pre-empt him here. I found the English do actually "look down" on the Scots and Irish, in the same way that upper middle-class English look down on anyone with a regional accent. For the most part the existance of the seperate, distinct cultures of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales pass by most English people, to the extent that they get culture shock when they come north.

Being half English (well, half Scot, half Geordy) I distinctly get this impression. The further south you go, the worst it gets. Many Scots "look down" on the English, its true. They hate all Southerners, and in consequence they stand at the North Pole. I dont have time for all that crap. Too busy learning Spanish so I don't have to live there any more.

I share your sentiments about memorias. One thing about GMs books that does disturb me is that paedophila is portrayed as just another form of true love - think of America in "El Amor". I don't read his books as love stories. I read them as warnings.

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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InterestedObserver says on May 12, 2007, 15:23:

You say "I never said there weren't good writers from England. I said that the best "English" writers are of celtic stock: Orwell, Goldsmith, CS Lewis, Oscar Wilde, etc etc." Well...two of those are English although one was born in Cornwall and the other (IIRC) Burma. My point was that to suggest the best English writers is untrue. SOME of the best English writers are undoubtedly of Celtic stock but then some are of patently Anglo-Saxon stock.

I'm not sure what it is that creates a great writer in English but if you actually look into it every part of Britain has created great writers and I mean regions there never mind countries. The best "English" writers are not from Celtic stock but are actually from all over. I admit that the Celtic nations - especially Ireland - do seem to produce a huge amount considering their small populations and compared to England/USA/Canada/Australia etc. How many of those writers you mentioned aren't also of some English stock? We are somewhat of a mongrel nation. As for my stock...English, Irish and Welsh that I know. Maybe not Scottish unfortunately.

I think you are a bit too paranoid about what people may think about Scots. I'm from the north west of England and when I lived in London I met some people who probably reacted to me like they did to you. Then again...sod it there are idiots everywhere.

PS - Dickens, Wodehouse, Stevenson, Austen and Hardy are my favourite English language writers.

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InterestedObserver says on May 12, 2007, 15:27:

By the way of his journalism I read "Clandestine in Chile" (involving an exile returning incognito into Pinochet's Chile in the eighties) and for what should have been such a thrilling subject it was incredibly tedious.

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Cockney Colombian says on May 12, 2007, 16:24:

I liked The General in His Labyrinth but I did find it tough going because of the period detail, it's easy to get lost if you only have a rudimentary understanding of the early years of the republic.

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