Let's give sound advice to people traveling to Colombia

ColombianoX says on Apr 16, 2005, 13:52:

Good post, Gringillo, I agree 100%!

And you made your point WITHOUT putting down Colombia, something I wish others (i.e. the usual scare-mongers) would do.

Saludes,

ColombianoX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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juanalejo says on Apr 16, 2005, 14:03:

Totally agree I totally agree with you post, unfortunatelly there are extreme people in this thread, and just as those that say everywhere is safe, there are other who say do not travel by land. The other extreme is also dangerous as people who are willing to travel by land and are told not to at all, when they arrive into Colombia and see things and do their 1st land travel will immediatelly dismiss all other warnings even those of not going into no go areas. I adhere to your pledge to give sound advice to encourage travel to safe areas and discourage travel to those areas that are unsafe.

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Jack Smith says on Apr 16, 2005, 14:26:

Stay out of the countryside and fly city to city........ I have made something like 25 trips to Colombia since 1997. A general rule has been to stay out of the countryside and if you must travel do it by air. Colombia has very good city to city air travel perhaps the very best in all of Latin America due to geography and security concerns.

My wife's family lives in Villavicencio but we dare not go there even with the beefed up security of pres. Uribe. The FARC has somewhere between 12,000 and 18,000 armed members and a SUPPORT network of some 200,000. If I go to Villavo and someone in the neighborhood knows an American is there....? See my point? I have read of Americans living in Bog or Cali who have said that if you live there, not just spending a week or two, sooner or later you will get a gun at your head? I think this is a little overblown BUT what it means is BE CAREFUL about where you go and when and be carrful what you wear and carry. I had taxi drivers in Cali tell me to NOT leave my arm outside the window with my $7 watch...then they told me to roll up the window.

In my 25 trips we have had only one incident. A thief was going down the side of our third story hotel room (Santa Monica) at 5 in the morning. The cops where chasing him.

Just be careful when you go.....

I did take a trip from Cali to Buga one time and the Bogota tourist train goes aways outside of Bogota but I would not venture to far out of the bigger cities. Most of the kidnappings are in the countryside
with "un falso reten.." Fake military road block carried out by FARC or Paras.

FLY ROBIN FLY!

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ixent (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 16, 2005, 15:36:

How about objective advice... Security "experts" basically are bombarded with lots and lots of bad facts about things that happen, and their job is to propagate the news to other people. They are unlikely to have been to any of the places they are warning people about. They are given a ONE-SIDED view, and they present a ONE-SIDED view.

I think that many of the people that have giving travelling advice to places which you consider to be "non-typical tourist destinations" have actually been there and seen the sitaution for themselves, so are in a better position to talk. I certainly ALWAYS talk to LOTS of people who have been somewhere I want to go, and when I go there talk to locals (Colombians and foreigners alike) to get the best picture I can. If you care to take a look at the Lonely Planet guide for Colombia, you will also find that these places are not as rarely visited by foreigners as you think (otherwise it would be hardly worth publishing a guidebook, woudln't it?). It might also be a misconception that the citys are safer -- certainly with respect to muggings etc. I feel safer in a small town or village.

Obviously there are NEVER safety guarantees, but one can should assess the situation objectively and decide if the risk is acceptable. Ask multiple opinions. Ask people who have been there. For example, Don't ask the rich businessman who lives in Bogota who ALWAYS flies to Cali if it is safe to take the bus -- ask someone who takes the route regularly, and they will tell you that the linea is transited 24 hours/day by a lot of traffic.

I'm getting a bit tired of the way that every post seeking travel advice ends up in this old debate... Or sarcastic comments.
It's boring and it puts people off posting interesting messages about travel in this forum. Remember that the remaing messages (well, 70%) are about people who want to know how to get the right visa or are looking for a wife -- and there is a lot more to Colombia than that.

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dwmte says on Apr 16, 2005, 15:50:

having spent my years in colombia.... quite frankly, i'd much rather be in the country and deal with the elements in the country than those in the city. and i've dealt with a bunch of them, in both.

there's something you can anticipate in el campo. in the city, it's everyman for himself and the risks are infinitely higher.

and sure, anyone giving advise about being/going here and there should be prudent enough to make sure it's 'right' advise.

dw

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dwmte says on Apr 16, 2005, 16:10:

gringillo... now that i think of it, noting that you've been a member for four days, with all due respect, i would wait a bit longer before coming to conclusions on who's posts are relavent and serious and who's arent.

i have no idea where you live and work in south america but i do know colombia, in the city and out and i fancy myself damn well familiar with the risks in both arenas. you are right that some might be to lenient in their advise and others overly concerned. but the point is that those that are posting are, for the most part, the ones who've been there and done that. (like the crazy chap who walked through the darien gap) now i wouldn't have walked through there, but he did and lived to tell about it. that's an adventurer for you. i don't think he's waiting for the safe vacation and sound advise, these aren't applicable. but this guy like so many are just up for the rush. got to let them go.

i spent more time than most would feel prudent out in eastern antioquia. i came back, and i know what's out there. would i tell others to go there, no. would i give them sound advise on what to expect, you bet. are they gonna listen...maybe, just maybe, then again, maybe not. if you're an adventurer, you know the breed. if you're not, all the talking and opinion aren't gonna change squat.

peace,

dw

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Gringillo says on Apr 16, 2005, 16:44:

dwmte, I used to go under a different name, then left for South America for the last year and returned recently and forgot my username. But how long you've been a member is irrelevant? This isn't pissing match.

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platano says on Apr 16, 2005, 16:46:

I was kidnapped in a city... I still recommend travel to cities All these posts about "flying from city to city" to be safe give me a chuckle.

I was kidnapped in Medellin while leaving my home one morning. The guerrillas planned my kidnapping with great care. I asked them if they had a lot of experience in kidnapping and told them I didn't want amateurs on my case. They assured me they did have a lot of experience with kidnapping and that they are professionals. Somehow at the time that was reassuring. :)

I would not use my kidnapping as an excuse to warn people how dangerous the cities are in Colombia. If people are planning a trip and have arrived at this list I imagine they are reading, listening, and gathering opinions from many sources. I agree with DW that people may or may not listen to advice... and no matter where they go, city or country, both good things and bad things might happen. As Apple Computer says in its iPod Shuffle ad campaign, "Life is random." Just as you don't get to pick your birth, neither can you predict your death.

Leaving my house in Medellin one morning I was not kidnapped because "les di papaya". (An odious Colombian expression in my opinion for the fearful attitude it breeds and the unjust blame it places on victims.) Based on my experience of living with them and observing them day and night, discussing, arguing, and challenging them, the guerrillas are not monsters, they are human beings. My guard was changed regularly so I had the opportunity to talk to a variety of intelligent individuals.

And although most posts I've read on PBH refers to them monolithically as "the guerrillas," (often in a demonizing fashion) they are not monolithic: they are individuals with hopes and dreams. Urban guerrillas are very different from rural guerrillas, men guerrillas different from women guerrillas, etc. Some are professionals and hold full-time jobs, some are students, some are unemployed, some campesinos, some work in Carulla and Super Ley and La Candelaria and Exito and Comfandi and La 14 and Macro where you shop for groceries. They are Colombians. They are your neighbors.

It's such a short life and death will come inviting us to salsa dance with her all too soon. Don't be "prevenido." Live your life without fear. And enjoy Colombia without fear. So much beauty... such beautiful people (even the guerrilleras! the most beautiful guerrilleras in the world!)

Life is a mystery to be enjoyed. And Colombia is a jewel to be discovered.

In twelve years I traveled all over Colombia and only had one bad incident, a kidnapping in Medellin. I still recommend people visit Medellin. I know of many kidnappings in Cali and Bogota. I still recommend tourists visit those cities, even though the entire Cali city council was kidnapped, downtown, in broad daylight, in the CAM!, and even though a hundred people were kidnapped out of a church one bright Sunday morning, in the middle of mass.

The cities are not safe: visit them...without fear.
The streets are not safe: walk them....without fear.
Life offers no guarantees: live life! ... like there's no tomorrow!

Plátano X,
Defensor de la libre locomoción en Colombia,
Promotor de vida, amor y risa,
and Resident Fool

********CONSUMER WARNING: I am not objective. I am madly in love with Colombia!*******

¡Libertad por Ingrid Betancourt y los demás secuestrados!

"Vive la vida... mire que se va y no vuelve...
Bohemio soy de corazón... amo esta vida con loca pasión"
----Raphy Leavitt y La Selecta.... Canción: "Siempre Alegre"

plátano

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miamimike says on Apr 16, 2005, 20:33:

If you go by Bus... make sure you buy a supply of Scapolmine(motion sickness drug)You vewry well may need it. In 94 I took a Bus and traveled for 2 weeks around Colombia in this way--had no security problems but the Bus Drivers drive with Wild Abandon and throw caution to the wind. You are in for the "Ride of your Life" if its your first time-buy the motion sickness drug.On the Bogota to Cartagena Leg of my journey-I remember crossing the Andes with the clouds in the Road like Fog. Absolutely Breathtaking and unforgetable. I don't know if I would take the trip today-probably not as many factors have changed since 94.M A good friend took a long trip over Semana Santa to the Coast and was in a horrible bus accident in the mountains due to the Chofer speeding downhill and passing on the curves-her daughter was also hurt. They are in therapy and are wearing back braces currently but luckily lived to tell their story. Weigh your options. My frind usually traveled to the Coast by plane and tells me in the future she will Only use this form of travel in the future.

Avatar Legend: Bush "If any of you Reporters are wondering, it was a Size 10"

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 16, 2005, 20:37:

Sensible advice? It's a lot more fun to give idiotic advice. Besides only an idiot would take advice from a bunch of anonymous internet posters.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on Apr 16, 2005, 21:45:

Amen! UTC, Especially when the signatures clearly state the ludicrousness of the posters.
Never trust anything you find on the internet.

:)

Plátano X, Resident Fool
********DISCLAIMER: I am not objective. I am madly in love with Colombia!*******
¡Libertad por Ingrid Betancourt y los demás secuestrados!

plátano

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carter says on Apr 17, 2005, 11:13:

I can never think of a subject name I think the worst advice that can be given to someone coming to Colombia is to stay in the cities. I just don't understand how anyone could think these areas safer than the coffee region, San Gil, Barichara, Villa de Leyva, parque Tyrona etc.

I agree with GIB that its hard for Latinos to understand what its like for foriegners travelling here. I don't claim to be an expert on the matter but after over a year of travelling Colombia I can say that the couple asking advice would be extremely unlucky to have anything happen to them travelling by bus on the route they are planning.

Owning a hostal here and spending so much time travelling in Colombia I am still yet to meet or hear of one backpacker who has had problems on the bus other than things being stolen from bags.

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Scalestick says on Apr 17, 2005, 11:45:

utopiacowboy It seems a little unfair to call a person an idiot because he/she are looking for advice on a forum about that place. Advice should be taken with a grain of salt for sure, but where else does a person look for current conditions or advice except to ask people who have been there and can share their experiances, good or bad? One can read up on the history of a place or read some news, online or wharever, but personal experiances are useful as well. But when giving advice, please try to be honest so a person can give it an honest assessment of whether to possibly use that advice or not. Gracias.

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 17, 2005, 12:25:

How do you know if we are being honest? And even if we are honest, what if the opinions are all over the place? How do you know if we've even been to Colombia? PBH is fine for entertainment purposes but it is no substitute for relying on people that you know and trust. We don't care if you get kidnapped or killed - presumably your wife or novia does. If you don't have a wife/husband or novia/novio (or other family or friends) to guide you then you really have no business even going to Colombia.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Scalestick says on Apr 17, 2005, 13:06:

We don't care if you get kidnapped or killed is a pretty strong statement that I don't think you should be using "WE" as I believe most people will try to help other people out by giving sound advice. As I said, advice should be taken with a grain of salt, but if you have nothing objective to offer when someone asks for advice, then don't give it, or at the very least don't call a person an idiot for trying to find out. Also, how exactly does one go about getting friends from Colombia to help guide you if one does not get offf their ass to go see for himself and make some friends there? The trick is not to show up with a guidebook in one hand and your dick in the other, but to have gathered enough reasonable information obtained from those who have been to be somewhat prepared. Information that should be taken with a grain of salt but if you as a person don't want to help people, then what does that say about you as a person?

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Lionheart says on Apr 17, 2005, 15:39:

contradictions Colombia is a land of contradictions, the Colombians are full of contradictions ... get used it and accept it as essence of their culture. I just posted a prime example in the Cali/Medellin thread in parallel.

The ongoing argument of how safe it is for a tourist or not is a moot debate, DOA ... it is just as dangerous or safe for Colombians, in the cities and in the country side. The odds are wirse in some places, and you can play them ... but do as Colombians do everyday, ignore the dangers and think of today being your last day: enjoy it!

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 17, 2005, 15:53:

I think it was Henry David Thoreau who said that if he knew someone was coming to "help" him, he'd start running in the opposite direction. I am quite skeptical of any "help" that can be obtained on this site. I, along with my in-laws, do not believe that Colombia is a good destination for the idly curious. Unless you have some business there, it's best to stay out.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on Apr 17, 2005, 16:05:

UTC, given that I agree with you...why am I here? Thanks, for the reminder of Thoreau. I think he also said you can stay current on the news if you read a newspaper once every five years.

I guess I'm just here for the entertainment, not for reliable information, though at times it feels like therapy, me working out the sequellas of my kidnapping in public, talking to myself, flaming myself!

Plátano X,
Defensor de la libre locomoción en Colombia
Promotor de la vida, el amor, y la risa
And Resident Fool
********DISCLAIMER: I am not objective. I am madly in love with Colombia!*******
¡Libertad por Ingrid Betancourt y los demás secuest

plátano

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 17, 2005, 16:19:

Thoreau: A Colombian Male? Life in the wilderness...hah! He walked to town so his Mommy and sisters could cook his meals and do his laundry. ;-)

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 17, 2005, 16:23:

He was also a first class moocher off the Emersons. Ol' Henry was always good for a quote even if he wasn't Mr. Self-Reliant.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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poco says on Apr 17, 2005, 17:58:

Trusting

Platano says “Never trust anything you find on the internet”

Further discussion is fruitless.

How can this be? If it is fruitless, and stated so on the internet,,, but the internet can't be trusted, making discussion fruitful but that can't be trusted making it fruitless, which can't be trusted,,,

Conclusion: There are a lot of untrustworthy fruits on the internet.

Trust me.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Jack Smith says on Apr 17, 2005, 20:32:

Your risk not mine! In my 25 trips to Colombia, most of the kidnappings I have read about took place in the countryside due to the falso reten! Where was Ingrid Betancourt and the Governor of Antioquilla? How about those climbers at Tyrona I think it is called? How about the Hells Angels American who thought he was so tough until he spent a few months with the FARC. Then there was the ACES plane that was hijacked by the ELN and those hostages were held for how long and then there was the vice president who was kidnapped by Escobar? Yes, you could get kidnapped anywhere in Colombia but just travel to Barrancabermeja and go to the worst part of that city and yell God Bless George Bush.

The FARC guerillas are thugs! These are bandidos not freedom fighters! Any American or Foreign national could travel through Nicaragua, El Salvador or even Chiapis Mexico without fear of kidnap.
Go to Colombia and travel through the Darien Gap and some thugh bandido only interested in $$$$$$ may very well kidnap you! Why? These freedom fighters in Salvador had some morality within their cause and the FARC? NO WAY! The leaders of the FARC, ELN and the PARAS are thugs and drug traffickers! Little criminal bandidos! They want easy money and nothing else! Drug money and kidnapping money and now the Mexican thugs have picked up on it!

TRAVEL TO COLOMBIA AT YOUR OWN RISK BUT DON'T EXPECT THE STATE DEPARTMENT TO DO ANYTHING FOR YOU IF YOU VENTURE OFF THE BEATEN PATH!

Your choice and your decision!

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platano says on Apr 17, 2005, 21:51:

Jack, You can also stay on the beaten path, as I did, and get kidnapped in a city of 2 million people, as I did. And the State Dept. will do nothing. It doesn't matter whether you stay on or venture off the beaten path. The State Dept. will do nothing. Even after I was released they called me to request a debriefing and I said sure, come on down, but they would not come to Medellin to see me. "Medellin is off-limits for US officials" they told me.

You are on your own. If you choose to stay in a city it is your choice and your decision. In a city is where I was kidnapped.

Plátano X,
Defensor de la libertad de la locomoción en Colombia (Constitución de 1991) ¡Libertad por Ingrid Betancourt y los demás secuestrados!
DISCLAIMER: I am not objective. I am madly in love with Colombia (and a bit mad, too!)

plátano

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platano says on Apr 17, 2005, 22:05:

Poco, I think you've got it! Never trust anything you find on the internet...
if you have no way to evaluate its authenticity...
if you don't know who the author is.... (anonymous authors)
if you have no way to evaluate the credentials of the author....
if you have no way to corroborate the information with other sources you do trust...

If all those ifs are the case, then you are correct: further discussion is fruitless.

Plátano X,
Defensor de la libertad de la locomoción en Colombia (Constitución de 1991) ¡Libertad por Ingrid Betancourt y los demás secuestrados!
DISCLAIMER: I am not objective. I am madly in love with Colombia (and a bit mad, too!)

plátano

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 18, 2005, 04:35:

:)

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 18, 2005, 06:04:

GIB
Ah because he is British he is safe,I keep that in mind!

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kernow62 says on Apr 18, 2005, 06:32:

I was surprised how observant the vendors in Cartagena were, they knew I was British before I uttered a word. Most Americans can't spot the fact that I am British. How do they do it?

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 18, 2005, 06:42:

The vendor in cartagena recognized class. hehe ;-)

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poco says on Apr 18, 2005, 07:46:

Simple Observation of the nickers, over the collar muttonchops and bow tie is a dead giveaway.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 18, 2005, 09:33:

or maybe because you not wearing white socks with sandals, bermuda a ridiculous straw hat and a tshirt saying COLOMBIA NO PROBLEMO.

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poco says on Apr 18, 2005, 11:12:

Memories or maybe because you not wearing white socks with sandals, bermuda a ridiculous straw hat and a tshirt saying COLOMBIA NO PROBLEMO.

Reminds of the Fresh Cream Lyrics: "someone is always going through its drawers"

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 18, 2005, 11:45:

never heard of it.

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kernow62 says on Apr 18, 2005, 12:19:

Observation of the nickers, over the collar muttonchops and bow tie is a dead giveaway. ja ja That's funny Poco.

Kat you must be correct, it was my class, although perhaps it had something to do with toenails. I never had so many people ask me if they could cut my toenails, come to think of it before Cartagena nobody ever asked if they could cut my toenails. Yes, Cartagena is the place to retire, after all I will never be able to cut my own toenails when I get older.

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kernow62 says on Apr 18, 2005, 12:21:

PD: Poco how did you know I was wearing knickers? Don't let on to my wife but it was a frilly purple thong! ja ja

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 18, 2005, 12:28:

Of course the toenails! Did your have the union jack painted on it. and what with the purple knickers?..uhmm have you been hanging around with Calipro exwife...huh

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poco says on Apr 18, 2005, 12:37:

Fresh Cream The band Fresh Cream was a 60’s rock group in the United States.

Knowing there are many knowledgeable posters,, I’ll explain before someone posts the entire lyric.

A Woman is like a dresser, someone is always going through its drawers. Quite a statement for a 60’s song.

Reading your post made me think,,, Darn,, she’s been looking in my dresser.

Fashion criminal,, No way someone is going to mistake me for a Colombian and cause me to have an accident !!! DAS makes me remove my RayBan Aviators.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 18, 2005, 12:57:

Poco
you are fashion criminal...;-)

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Jack Smith says on Apr 18, 2005, 14:30:

kat1 I am thrilled that you can travel to Villavo every year with no problems. I am happy that Uribe has ent the military after the subversives. However, I prefer visiting my wife's family in Bogota.
Yes, you can get kidnapped anywhere but I feel better in Colombia's major citiess or San Andres Island. To each their own?

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platano says on Apr 18, 2005, 14:32:

You can be even safer in.... Providencia.

Plátano X

P.D. But wherever you go, "debes portarte bien"

plátano

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 18, 2005, 23:54:

true
case closed

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