LaloG´s POV

utopiacowboy says on Jan 9, 2005, 16:13:

You're a dreamer, LaloG to compare Colombian cities with US cities. A little more than a year ago, my wife was riding a crowded bus in Medellin that was hijacked and everyone on it was robbed. This did not even merit a mention in El Colombiano! If this had happened in San Antonio, they'd still be talking about it! I was reading another item in El Colombiano, a small little story buried on page 5 about how the police had discovered a car filled with explosives near a mall in El Poblado. There was enough explosives in the car to have destroyed several city blocks. Again, just another day! Maybe you think this kind of stuff is normal. I don't. When I visit Bogota and we go out at night, I notice that my brother-in-law doesn't stop at any red lights - he just slows down and cruises on through. I asked him why? He said it's too dangerous to stop. Is this type of behavior normal where you lived in the US? Here in San Antonio, we stop at all the red lights no matter what barrio we're in or what time of day it is. Yes, Gringoinbogota is extreme but so are you.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

tzion says on Jan 9, 2005, 17:17:

Utopia: "A little more than a year ago, my wife was riding a crowded bus in Medellin that was
hijacked and everyone on it was robbed." Oh shit--and I'm thinking to choose Medellín!
Yikes!! How often do things like that happen??

0 funny, 0 helpful.

isaactraveler says on Jan 9, 2005, 17:57:

the best thing about other opinions is that you get a wide range of differing perspectives (haha you thought I was gonna say the other thing). The smart person reads them all and goes traveling with the understanding that anything and everything could happen to them. At least there are some really good eye openers here about worst case scenarios.

Realistically, because Colombia is impoverished, crime is a bit more prevalant then in a majority of american suburbs. THAT NOT WITHSTANDING, I agree with LaLog. There is still crime in the suburbs, and if you are stupid enough to pull out a ton of cash in front of a group of rough-looking teenagers and then proceed to count it before cramming it in your pocket, then god help you whereever you are.

Lalog, I see Gringoinbogota as a pistol-wielding-knife-in-boot-carrying-ninja-star-throwing-mace-blasting-stab-you-in-the-eye-for winking kind of guy (paranoid schizophrenic) however if anyone should happen to err in one direction or the other, his JUST eeks out ahead of blind optimism.

anyway, I love Colombia, and I continue to believe that things are only getting better there everyday. People like you reinforce this idea, and if enough people like you and me start believing it, I may in fact move to Colombia and make my living robbing people.

Keep posting, I like your stuff too!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

ColombianoX says on Jan 9, 2005, 18:04:

"You're a dreamer, LaloG to compare Colombian cities with US cities."

Utopia,

Well, then I guess life is but a dream, because according to the New York Times, as recently as 2002 the capital of Colombia was safer than the capital of the United States:

http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2002/04/04/of/


"According to the New York Times, Bogota is now statistically safer than Caracas and Rio de Janiero -- not to mention Washington, D.C., and Baltimore."


Now that article is a couple of years old and I'm sure Tinto will run out and bring us the most recent statistics, but this makes it clear that you don't have to be a dreamer to compare colombian cities with US cities in terms of safety.


ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

0 funny, 0 helpful.

LaloG says on Jan 10, 2005, 06:50:

Safe cities I lived in Manhattan for 30 years, and the number of times there were bombs exploding that were not reported in the press was phenominal. Once I was in Bank Leume on Madison Ave. in the GM building, when a bomb went off in the lobby. Over a dozen people were injured in the blast, fortunately, I don´t think anyone was killed, but the press ignored the incident. Why? I haven´t a clue, except that it may have been directed to from higher athorities.
Living in LA, we were located not far from where the LA Bomb squad was headquartered, and hardly a week went by that they were not called out to do something about a suspicious package or an actual bomb. Little of their activities were reported in the press. I came to believe there was and is, a tacit agreement that if all the terrorist activity is actually reported, then the typical US citizen would live in terror to the point of affecting public moral, which in turn would affect the economy as people became too frightened to go to work. Look at the incidence of road rage killings in the US. Really what is that about other than some gun toting nut asserting his superiority because he has the fire power, and can.
Additionally, in Phoenix, where we were living just before coming to Bogotá, there were massive numbers of hit and run deaths on the streets. Even the Catholic Bishop killed a man with his car and ran. Police caught up with him as he was trying to have the damage to his car fixed. It has become an epidemic of the haves thinking they can get away with murder, because the murdered are low class individuals who don´t count. This is not a single instance. In another case in Phoenix, a young upwardly mobil attorney ran down an decapitated a young woman walking along a street. He got the minimum sentence, and will resume his career when he gets out of jail, not prison, in 9 months. He was drunk, and fled the scene. Do these stats count in the acknowledged muder rates Tinto talks about in his post? I think not.
Here in Bogotá, we seldom see car accidents even though the traffic is what I personally would describe as frenetic. When we have seen them, they are usually fender benders, and don´t involve injuries.
So I may be living in a fantacy, but from my POV my fantacy is more comfortable than it was in the US.
I haven´t even mentioned (yet, but here it is) the deaths by shooting of untold numbers of illegal emigrants in the deserts of Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and California, by vigilante groups that have taken the law into their own hands. Do these count in the stats? Probably not, because they are illegals. What about the wild west aspect of people smugglers driving down the highways shooting at each other with van loads of illegals? It has happened. I suppose I could go on and on, but I think there is a lot of fantacy in people´s minds that the US is a safer place than Colombia. I personally think that is a crock of the worst kind.
LaloG

0 funny, 0 helpful.

utopiacowboy says on Jan 10, 2005, 07:22:

LaloG, at least I used anecdotes that I know to be true. In your rebuttal, you offer up urban legends to prove the US is just as unsafe. I happen to live in Texas close to the Mexican border and I know what I am talking about when I say that your stories about the vigilante groups may have some shred of truth in other states, but this does not happen here. There was one incident where a rancher shot an illegal here and it turned out he was a transplanted Yankee who was not accustomed to the foot travelers. He actually shot the guy in the back. Here is what really happens. My neighbors and I give them directions when they are lost. We leave out canned food and water for them so they won't starve to death. When La Migra showed up at the local school looking for two illegals, the principal refused to let them enter the school without a warrant. By the time they came back the next day with the warrant, they were gone. There are not vigilante groups here hunting down illegals. You are truly living in a fantasy world which is not connected to reality. Be careful in Colombia.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

utopiacowboy says on Jan 10, 2005, 07:37:

I did do some quick research on the topic of vigilante groups and illegals and as it turns out there are runmors and stories about such groups in Arizona and California. Those states are notorious for their anti-Mexican and anti-illegal attitudes. Texas has a completely different attitude towards Mexico and illegal aliens.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

isaactraveler says on Jan 10, 2005, 07:59:

I agree with Utopia about this. Texas is actually very friendly towards mexican nationals and latin people in general. at least 4 major cities in texas have a majority latino citizenship.

We also take an attitude that is more of a "life goes on" kind of thing. I think most of the problems with latinos are not with immigrants but with hispanic raised ( if there are problems).

Aside from that, dont forget about the mexican national that went ripping through Houston a couple years ago on a killing spree, using the trains to get around.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Hunter says on Jan 10, 2005, 08:07:

vigilante's On the theme of vigilante´s, in the first few months of 2003, Ctg had the highest homicide rate in Colombia.

After this was brought to my attention on another board, I contacted a few friends in Ctg to see what was going on.

Their explination was that all the increase was in the poor barrios on the road to Turbaco (can't remember their names).
What was happening was that the petty criminals were living in one barrio and doing their work in another barrio, not shitting on your own doorstep scenario.
Many of the criminals were known, so the barrios got together and had a clean out for a couple of months, hence the murder rate going up.

So although many murders and other incidences are not solved by the Police in Colombia, they are certainly solved by other means.

Hunter

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gomezman5 says on Jan 10, 2005, 08:16:

LaloG...it's time to give it up and move on !! It's time to give it up. In your attempt to get Peter to censor individuals participating in this board, you have lost both the battle, and the war. You lost the battle when, apoprox. 7 out of 10 threads posted, defended GIB's right to post what ever opinion he deemed worthy of reading. You lost the war, when Peter made his determination, and rightly so, that GIB had the right to have his opinion heard, even if it cast Colombia in a negative light. He furthermore said that he will continue to allow GIB to post as long as he stays withing the rules as set forth. Peter made his ruling and summarily close the thread.

I think he was saying something here, when he closed debate on the issue. I also may add, you might want to read GIB's thread, he clearly states, one of the reasons he takes these extreme positions, is that he knows that he get's a rise out of you guys. Now that he has Peter's blessings, prepare for the same and maybe more, because GIB now has the "green light" from the highest authority here to do so.

In light of the above, I think the best avenue for you would be to move on, and not continue to try and justify your reasons for trying to ban gringoinbogota from the board. I say this because, it appears as if that now that you have lost your venture to remove GIB, I think you are trying unilateraly to attack him again, without calling for his ouster. This could be construed as a violation of the rules if the rules were enforced under a broad enterpretation.

In summary, I can only ask you, what are you looking for in this forum? Do you want it to be an extention of Colombia's bureau of tourism, in that everything here is always presented in a positive light?? If that happens I and many others will surely leave, and you and the 4 or 5 others....at most, can write viva Colombia and praise colombia all day until your hearts content. I don't think Peter would like that however.

Come on Lalo, you have made many good contributions on this board. I
have read them and have been quite impressed. Let's just move forward and let the past sail away.

Have a good day!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gomezman5 says on Jan 10, 2005, 08:28:

Lalo...an example of what I am saying "my "attacks" on him (Gringoinbogota) are trying to draw attention to the massive piles of bullshit he puts out about a city/country he seems to have a love hate relationship with."

LaloG

That's exactly the point Lalo, debate him to your hearts content, but stop the personal attacks and the foul language and I think you will also have a more sympathetic audience. Trust me, your point of view will be given much more credibility.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

LaloG says on Jan 10, 2005, 08:37:

At last some reasonable dialogue To Utopiacowboy— Rumors about vigilante groups are not just rumors. I´ve seen photos published in both California and Arizona newspapers of the groups posing with their rifles and other weaponery. To be striaght forward about the problem, there are also groups trying to help the illegals in the deserts by placing water bottles and I believe even cell phones for illegals stranded in the desert. I´ve also read stories of those water bottles being shot to pieces, and the cell phones crushed. In my mind, that is tantamount to muder when you know the heat in the desert can reach 115 degrees Farenheite in the Summer months, which can, and does kill. As far as Texas being exempt from this vigilante phenomenon, more power to the state, but I personally don´t believe Texas is all that welcoming to the illegal emegrants. I have a very close friend whose family has been in Texas (Houston) since before Santa Ana did his thing at the Alamo, and he has told me stories of their problems with non Latino Texans. So crow if you want, but I firmly place Texas in the ranks of the problem states. Discovery Channel produced and aired a program about the illegal problem, and somehow their cameras were able to visit vigilante camps along the Texas border as well as in the other states I´ve mentioned. I try not to make things up to scare people, because the stress levels, especially since 9-11, in the US are rising to astronomical levels as it is.
All I´ve been trying to do here on PBH, is bring some level headed dialogue to the issues. Scaring people is the modus operandi of the Bush administration. We don´t need more of that from know nothings.
I never raise objections to actual reportage of events that actually happen, but when individuals start laying dire warnings on inocent posters about dangers that only might exist, I have to voice my opinion.
I have a friend, a 22 year old South African woman who has just completed a bike (non motorized) trip from Patagonia to Bogotá which included trips to the major cities in Colombia in all parts of the country, and she was entirely ALONE. I guess she was lucky to have never been kidnapped or raped, or murdered. Her feelings were that everyone she met on her trip, was welcoming and gracious. Her one difficult problem was to get Colombian families to let her get on her way after she had been invited to spend the night or a day or two with them. She took only pleasant memories back to Johannesburg with her. Seems to me her blond, blue eyed, innocence would have made her a likely target for the bad guys along her trail, but they seemingly didn´t exist.
LaloG

0 funny, 0 helpful.

utopiacowboy says on Jan 10, 2005, 09:03:

So basically you are saying, LaloG, that I don't know what I am talking about, that illegals do not sleep in the fields of my ranch, that I do not see them walking on the road, that we do not help them where we can. Keep on watching your television and assuming that the world matches your world view. It does not!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

viewpoint says on Jan 10, 2005, 12:20:

LaloG POV You have received a lot of good advice and I hope that you listen to it as your life (or someone else you influence) may depend upon it. The first few years I made the same kind of "silly" statements you are making about security in Colombia and only after close Colombian friends from well-to-do families shared personal experiences that they or others in their families experienced I learned how little I really knew about reality in Colombia.

If you are a low income gringo you are much more safe than a wealthy Colombiano as nobody can rob more than you physically have and they are not interested in detaining you for months or years when you (or your family) has no great wealth to use in procuring your release.

You don't have to travel far from Colombia to see and experience a different lifestyle in terms of security and personal safety. Even Panama City has a much more secure enviroment to live in or visit but I wouldn't trade it for Medellin. Like GIB says I will trade a little bit of risk for the quality of life in Colombia.

On a more positive note I would like to say from reading your posts on this tread that you and I lived in the same USA because I have seen some of your same observations myself and agree with you. However, I think as the USA government has become less welcoming of immigrants the usa citizens don't exactly share the same feelings. I guess I am trying to say the usa citizens are more welcoming of immigrants than our post 9/11 government policies have become.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 10, 2005, 12:27:

Can I go camping at your ranch? It sounds like all the supplies - food, water, cell phones - are available for free. And maybe even that pony I always wanted. ;-)

I wanted access to health care, housing and education, but, no, I get potholes, trash and silicone tits instead. -Desi.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gomezman5 says on Jan 10, 2005, 12:28:

GIB I think you state your case well. GIB is essentially, saying that even in spite of the increased danger that exists, because he finds the many other aspects of Colombian life more appealing than living in the US, he stays there.

I just can't understand why this guy cannot be allowed to live there in peace, but at the same time be able to warn others of the types of dangers that exist there, without a few people wanting to ridicule what he says, and furhtermore attempt to censor his opinions at the same time. I find it astonishing.

Anyway, I think my previous thread above says it all.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

LaloG says on Jan 10, 2005, 15:33:

Learning to read Any number of the above posters might do well to do it. Most of what´s being said is still from lack of understanding about what brought about this thread in the first place.
What I said, was: Any large city in any country can have problems with crime, and Bogotá is no different if you act stupid or don´t pay attention. In my considered opinion, Bogotá can be, and probably is, just as safe to a hick from the corn fields of Iowa as say New York, London or Rome. I´ve heard plenty of horror stories about those cities as well. Can´t say I´ve experienced any horrors in them, but then neither have I experienced any in Bogotá. LaloG

0 funny, 0 helpful.

GringoViejo says on Jan 11, 2005, 16:28:

If it Bleeds it Leads! After all of this is said and done. There remains the fact that if a story is sensational, even though it may be the only incident of that kind for eons, it will get the headlines and everyone will be talking about it. But stop to think about the zillions of good things that also happened during that same period without any publication at all.
I will bet that almost everyone of us has stated in the past;
"my boss never tell me that I do a good job, He only complains about my mistakes!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

paisa29 says on Jan 11, 2005, 17:47:

Lalog, where are you from originally?

"Fill the earth with the light and warmth of hospitality" Conrad Hilton

0 funny, 0 helpful.

LaloG says on Jan 12, 2005, 12:10:

paisa29 If there is an original place, it would be Oklahoma. But I was taken to AZ at 3 weeks by my parents. My dad was an engineer on the Southern Pacific RR. After a divorce, my mother took the family sans dad to Denver, and I graduated form H.S. there and then spent 4 years in Kansas City, MO, attending the Art Institute. From there, I moved to NYC where I lived and worked for 30 years. (I´m a painter, and have had several exhibitions in the Big Apple). I started a consulting business with my second wife, and we ended up in New Jersey for 17 years consulting to AT&T and Bell Labs. From there, to LA where we consulted to Southern California Edison, and I began to teach fine art again. There were several side periods, like Rochester, NY where I taught at the Univ. and RIT. Also some time working for an non sectarian orphanage in Mexico. Ultimately, my partner and I ended up in Phoenix, just before come to Bogotá last March.
I certainly don´t profess to know all the dangers this thread has brought to light, I just object when someone tries to scare an ernest traveler with made-up horror stories. I guess, since Peter has weighed in about freedom of speech, we all have to allow the Assholes to yell fire when there isn´t one.
Best,
LaloG

0 funny, 0 helpful.

paisa29 says on Jan 12, 2005, 13:21:

lalog, pienso que usted ha sido un poco duro con sus palabras, yo he estado en este foro desde algunas semanas y he aprendido a conocer un poco de cada persona según los comentarios que hacen aquí, muchos de ellos hablan de acuerdo a sus experiencias en el país, algunos la han pasado muy bien, pero otros han experimentado cosas dificiles, yo pienso que usted debería tomar un poco mas de tiempo para leer los comentarios y despues emitir un juicio sobre alguien.
Yo he vivido toda mi vida en Medellín y he pasado por tiempos dificiles, tambien sé que las cosas han mejorado mucho últimamente en el país, pero tambien me siento con la responsabilidad de advertir a cualquier turista sobre la seguridad y eso no quiere decir que no ame a Colombia.

"Fill the earth with the light and warmth of hospitality" Conrad Hilton

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 12, 2005, 13:27:

message sent Lalo,

I just sent you a private message re. the art scene in Bogota. Please check your inbox here in the forum.

Thanks.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

utopiacowboy says on Jan 12, 2005, 13:37:

Well, LaoG, I guess you can include yourself with your ludicrous statements about vigilante groups in Texas hunting down illegals. I have lived here 14 years and you can contradict me all you want with your Discovery Channel but you don't know squat about Texas. You remind me of my brother's wife, who after I told her we did not have any locks on the doors because the area where I lived was so tranquil and peaceful, refused to believe me. She had this idea that Texas was full of robbers and violence so she kept telling me that I must be wrong and that I was lying. So you can think what you WANT to think but sooner or later reality is going to come knocking.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

LaloG says on Jan 12, 2005, 16:18:

Texas Well, does it count that my partner grew up in Houston, and that he lived there until he was 42 years old, and still has family living in the state in several different cities. Or that my ex wife has close relatives that own two large parcels of land (ranches) along the rio near Brownsville, and that we spent several months there researching a book? I´ve said, I don´t know everything, but to flat out say Texan´s love illegals, and help them along the way is just too big a pill to swallow. Makes me feel like a toad that´s swallowed a stinkbug, and the stinkbug hasn´t got sense enough to let go so the toad can spit him out. No, I don´t know nuthin´.
Best,
LaloG

0 funny, 0 helpful.

utopiacowboy says on Jan 12, 2005, 16:28:

LaloG, have you met any illegals? Do you know anyone who has illegals working for them? There is not a single person I know here who does not either know of an illegal or have them doing some work for them. I don't see anybody calling La Migra. Again, you can't believe it because it cracks your world view to think that there are Texans who are giving illegals directions or food or water. Well, I've done it myself and so have my neighbors. I guess we are a lot more charitable than the people you associate with.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

isaactraveler says on Jan 12, 2005, 16:36:

"I have a friend, a 22 year old South African woman who has just completed a bike (non motorized) trip from Patagonia to Bogotá which included trips to the major cities in Colombia in all parts of the country, and she was entirely ALONE. I guess she was lucky to have never been kidnapped or raped, or murdered."

or maybe she just pedals faster than the ladrones can run.

Sorry amigo lalog. Having been in Texas 42 years and knowing El Paso, Houston, Corpus Christi, Austin, Dallas and San Antonio very VERY well, I cant say I agree with you. The least friendly city in that group might well be Austin, but I can damn well assure you that they would be first in line to give someone a job.

Before you shoot me for suggesting that Texas takes advantage of immigrants.. hmmm well ok maybe we do. I sure as hell dont want to cut my grass though. or clean my damn house.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

isaactraveler says on Jan 12, 2005, 16:37:

damn you Utopia you type too fast.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

utopiacowboy says on Jan 12, 2005, 16:39:

Yeah, you're behaving all right!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

0 funny, 0 helpful.