"Killing Pablo"... or how the US and Colombia sold their soul to devil

RAAAY says on Nov 2, 2007, 19:33:

......" In The End, Everyone Involved in "Killing Pablo" LOST !!! "..........

M.T .....For someone who obviously has a great fondness for Medellin you display a lack of understanding of how much this city and country are better without him. If Colombia had to conspire with the US and the devil himself to get rid of Escobar.........it would have been
worth it................



...." What a fascinating story about a man, known as Pablo Escobar, who waged a war against the Colombian government and all its high and mighty, high-society hypocrisies!!..."


His " war " affected the ordinary Colombian more than anyone else.............

.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

0 funny, 0 helpful.

NJ C Rep says on Nov 2, 2007, 20:51:

The mere fact that there are hypocracies in the world does not justify what Escobar did for a living. He dealt a product that ruined the lives of many people who are far removed from US an Colombian politics... How anyone can romantize a man who made his living on poor souls who could not fight addictions is beyond me. If you want to fight the hyprocracies of the world.. don't sell your soul to the devil to do it... people who sell their souls become the evil the despised and worse...

0 funny, 0 helpful.

la campiña says on Nov 2, 2007, 21:06:

Escobar also built schools, Barrios, Communties, and a football relgion, one mans rebel is anothers freedom fighter.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

morphus says on Nov 2, 2007, 21:36:

He had so much money, why not? Easy way to get the poor on your team.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

la campiña says on Nov 2, 2007, 21:57:

ok he manipulated many poor people,and rich even more so , but some good came from that, my point is , CUT the demand, supply stops, let the coffee growers get back to basics, without false Uribe promises, and without planes spraying deadly chemicals flown by ex US war pilots.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

morphus says on Nov 2, 2007, 22:05:

How would you like a Colombian neck tie or your next flight back to the UK blown up?Helping the poor does'nt compensate for all that.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Miguel says on Nov 2, 2007, 22:13:

I am sure all of you Colombian history buffs remember the day Pablo had more net worth than the sitting government; that was when the gloves came off. Read "Walking Ghosts"; and thanks to SrT for advising me to do so.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

la campiña says on Nov 2, 2007, 22:13:

that is sooooooooooooooo bad , why do you think the poor are responsible for bombs, al contrario, READ, and you realy think I want to be blown up ,

0 funny, 0 helpful.

NJ C Rep says on Nov 2, 2007, 23:21:

Pablo could have bought me a bentley for everyday of the week with a trunk full of cash and he will always be a &^%$#

Nothing is good about about money earned from a broken life of an addict. To blame governments who can't stop it is one thing but to praise the man who profited from it is completly nuts... There are some things more important than pumping up one's political bias...

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Frank Rizzo says on Nov 2, 2007, 23:55:

Pablo just wanted to be a rockstar....we all do..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76i6aZgo2io

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Miguel says on Nov 3, 2007, 01:02:

¡Piensa los pepes!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

poco says on Nov 3, 2007, 07:42:

Quote: ¡Piensa los pepes!

Gives the Paramilitary an aura of sainthood, doesn't it ? Kind of sad Colombia didn't finish off the FARC before demobilizing them in the cities. Big Mistake,, but oh, well, shit happens.

The start of this thread indicates someone needs a tin foil hat,, BUT,,,, EVERYONE IS IN LUCK !!!!! The documentary is on TV tomorrow.

THE KILLING OF PABLO (Documentary) will return ONCE MORE to the History Channel. The first time I saw this several years ago made me run out and buy the book. Not really run,, or even go out,, click'n on amazon is much easier.
-------------------
An exploration of the criminal life of Pablo Escobar that culminated in the largest manhunt in history and the controversial 1993 killing of Escobar on a rooftop in Medellin, Colombia. Based on his book Killing Pablo: The Hunt for the World's Greatest Outlaw, author Mark Bowden anchors the program, guiding us through pivotal moments of Escobar's life and sharing startling revelations he uncovered during the research for his book. Features interviews with key officials of Colombia and the US.

Running Time: 120 minutes
-----------------------------------------------------------

I can't wait to see it again. Got to love the Paramilitary. They are a true inspiration and shows WHAT IT TAKES to win against Money, Terror and Power. Chokes me up everytime I see it.



History Channel,,,, SUNDAY -- NOVEMBER 4th --- 3 PM

===== CHECK YOUR LOCAL LISTINGS. !!! http://tinyurl.com/3xsvxb

I won't be able to sleep tonight.



Guess where they shot him !!!!! Colombian JUSTICE system at work, best in the world.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Lowell says on Nov 3, 2007, 08:07:

Why is it that there appears to be less of a drug abuse problem here in Colombia than in other parts of the world? Because it's legal? It sure is cheap enough here. Go fast societies?

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

0 funny, 0 helpful.

john_stark says on Nov 3, 2007, 08:10:

Less of a problem? Colombians use drugs with the best of them.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 3, 2007, 09:06:

IMHO, the problem with Escobar wasn't the product he dealt so much as his absolute ruthlessness and immorality. His megalomania led him to try to essentially take OVER Colombia, and he escalated the "war" to include thousands of innocent civilians. The Robin Hood image is a bunch of BS. Robin Hood never killed innocent civilians in droves.

Another book that I think treats that period of time in Colombia's history from an interesting point of view is Gabo's "News of Kidnapping". Same story, different angle.

How's it going selling your Escobar book, MT?

0 funny, 0 helpful.

happy camper says on Nov 3, 2007, 10:19:

Pablo apparently learned from another group of people who advocate "steal/profit as much as you can in a short period of time, give back 10% in donations to various causes (don't forget the politicos) and you are a hero". No matter what your crimes you have a group of cheerleaders who will defend you.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

happy camper says on Nov 3, 2007, 10:20:

postscript,

DEAD FOLKS DON'T COMPLAIN MUCH!!!!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

b bruce says on Nov 3, 2007, 10:48:

My hats off to Mark Bowden, he did a good job writing the book. My hat is off to the Colombian militarys commando's for hunting the piece of shit down and killing him. Pablo was no Robin Hood. He was a thug who would murder his own friends to meet his goal. But one mans murderous thug can be someone elses hero!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Medellin Traveler says on Nov 3, 2007, 11:10:

"Why is it that there appears to be less of a drug abuse problem here in Colombia than in other parts of the world? Because it's legal? It sure is cheap enough here. Go fast societies?" - Lowell

None of the above.

Asked of George Carlin the following question, "what does cocaine make you feel like? "

George Carlin, "it makes you feel like doing more cocaine."

How true it is,,, in AMERICA.

In COLOMBIA.... the cocaine is as pure as god had wanted it to be for his people.

The problem with addicition to cocaine in the US can be attributed to the additives, yes folks we in the states don't get the good quality pure cocaine found in Colombia. Once the cocaine enters this country the middle man cuts the cocaine with speed, PCP, or whatever else can help him double his supply.

You can do cocaine in Colombia all day long and when it's time to for you to go to bed, because you have to get up early for work, you go to sleep. In the states when you do one line, as George Carlin said, it will only make you feel like doing more cocaine. Once you run out of cocaine, you run out and get more cocaine, once you run out of money to buy more cocaine you sell whatever you have to get the money to buy more cocaine, and once you have nothing else to sell you rob, steal and cheat from your family, friends and everyone you love.

If the US government legalized Cocaine there would not be this great epedemic of drug addicts, because we would be getting the best cocaine in the world from the Colombians.

What is the difference between alcohol and cocaine? You have more death related cases involving alchohol. And it usually ends up killing more innocent people just driving home, than the actual drunk behind the wheel. On the other hand, you just overdose on cocaine in the privacy of your own home.

Legalize all DRUGS!! The FARC, Paramilitaries, Drug Lords, GangLeaders, gangbangers, street thugs will have no income to propetuate their criminal activites.

Mr Hollywood,
I'm just sitting on the book. I spoke to the owner the other day and he said he had the book for twelve years, what's a few more years. It's a retirment nestegg, only it's book.

In the end of "Killing Pablo" the Colombian and USA governments resorted to the same, if not worse, tactics that gave them the reasons for going after Pablo Escobar.

I'm sure there are many people, who were involved in the hunt leading to the killing of Escobar, that probably have a difficult time looking at themselves in the mirror, knowing that what they did was against everything they themselves believe in...in the begining of the hunt.

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 3, 2007, 11:14:

Sorry, man, but that's nonsense about cocaine being addictive in the US and not in Colombia. There's plenty of folks addicted and going to rehab or killing themselves in Colombia.

And there are lots of folks in the US who can do it recreationally without becoming addicted. Some people just have that unfortunate brain chemistry that makes them unable to stop. I've got an ex-friend whose destroying his life right now that way.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Medellin Traveler says on Nov 3, 2007, 11:21:

I have spoken to many a gringo in Colombia about cocaine and about this topic. This was with complete strangers who for whatever reasons wanted to talk to me about cocaine in the US versus cocaine in Colombia. They brought up this issue and I have to completely agree with their theory. They would definitely know what they were talking about, if you know what I'm talking about.

Agree with the fact that brain chemistry can at times be the biggest factor, also don't forget to include people who were abused as young children, they are additcted to drugs as a form of escape.

"There's plenty of folks addicted and going to rehab or killing themselves in Colombia." - Mr Hollywood

I can completely understand, there are many Colombians who are probably trying to forget, whatever it is they are trying to forget. Alchohol and drugs have always been a poor mans form of therapy to help mask the pain in their life.

But I believe, when speaking about the general population, that the main issue regarding addiction can be attributed to the additives in the cocaine found in the US. I also speak from personal experience on this subject.

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Nov 3, 2007, 11:31:

Hmm... there are a couple of references above to "pure" cocaine in Colombia, as God intended it to be. I guess that means kerosene, acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, methyl isobutyl ketone, ethyl ether, potassium permanganate, hydrochloric acid, and sulfuric acid are all benign, divine and tasty to boot.


I always thought du Pont, Dow, Lyondell, Shell and so on were huge chemical companies that produced some nasty (but necessary) products for our modern world. Now I know that, like the Blues Brothers, they're on a mission from God.

Haha.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Medellin Traveler says on Nov 3, 2007, 11:37:

Tinto,
I was just being facetious.

I will take a tinto though.

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Lcacique says on Nov 3, 2007, 13:46:

poco said:

"Got to love the Paramilitary. They are a true inspiration and shows WHAT IT TAKES to win against Money, Terror and Power. Chokes me up everytime I see it."

What the at $! at are you talking about? The paramilitary armies did not fight against Money, Terror and Power. What world are you living in? They utilized Terror more than any other illegal entity in the country and they fought for Money and Power. That is undeniable, and anyone that cannot recognize that should be wrapped up tight in a straightjacket and locked away in a padded cell. You want to be pro-paramilitary, that is cool with me. But have the balls to acknowledge reality.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 3, 2007, 14:16:

MT, the cocaine in Colombia is certainly "purer" in the sense that in Colombia it's simply so cheap that there's no real incentive for dealers to cut it or step on it to increase their profits. The mannitol or baking soda or whatever they use to cut it would cost almost as much as the cocaine itself.

But none of those substances are themselves addictive. And cocaine is highly addictive. So back to the drawing boards for that theory.

Also, take a walk around some of the really bad parts of Medellin or Bogota where the bazuco smokers hang out and tell me that cocaine isn't addictive here.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

pedro says on Nov 3, 2007, 14:23:

Medellin Traveller apparently hangs out in the south side of Medellin in the communities beyond Itagui.

In those particular neighbourhoods, you'll find plenty of people who'll praise Escobar. After all, that's where he directed most of his social spending.

It's a jaundiced and limited view, though. It's kind of like going to a Ba'ath party 5 year reunion and asking if Saddam was a ruler who did good things for the country.

que nota!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Medellin Traveler says on Nov 3, 2007, 15:13:

"The mannitol or baking soda or whatever they use to cut it would cost almost as much as the cocaine itself.

But none of those substances are themselves addictive. And cocaine is highly addictive. So back to the drawing boards for that theory." - Mr Hollywood

I agree. But if you cut it up with PCP and/or Speed, that is a whole different story. Again, I speak from personal experience. And, it's just my personal theory, but it makes sense to me.

Pedro -
I do not hang out anywhere, I'm always moving, Who wants to be a sitting duck.

As far as my initial post is concerned, and regardless of what Pablo Escobar did, what I feel is truly disheartening is the actions taken by the Colombian and US government to get one man, albiet a man who had enough power to terrorize a nation. The Colombians got into bed with the Cali Cartel, formed Los Pepes and resorted to the same type, again.. if not worse, criminal activities they were supposed to be fighting against. In the end, the Cali Cartel become more powerful, and the coke kept flowing into the US... as is the case today.

What is more dispicable, is what the US and Colombian government did to Escobars wife and childeren. These were freakin' children!!! All they wanted was to get out of the freakin' country for fear of their lifes. But NO, the US government applied pressure to any and all countries to not let the Escobar family enter.

Yet, the US has no probelem working with rebels, communist states, drug dealers, murderers, amongs other lowlife organization to achieve their own personal goals. They have propped up dictators, put the squash on democratic elections when they couldn't control the person running for office, they have not only supported but have trained terrorist to achieve their goals. It has nothing to do with democracy and the bullshit rheotoric, "They Want Our Freedom!" What a crock of SHIT!!

Killing Pablo was just a trophy kill for both the US and Colombian government because nothing changed after his death. The only difference is the Cali Cartel just kept their head down, but continued doing business as usual. The Colombian government acted, for the benefit of US aid, like they actually cared about stopping drug trafficking, and the US continues to have major influence over Colombia.

And don't think for a minute that US military personal in Colombia today is not listening to what's going on in the presidental palace ( or whatever it's called.) They probably know more about how the Colombian government works than most Colombian citizens know about THEIR own government, including other politicians.

The equipment the US government used to hunt down Pablo Escobar, some 14 years ago, is archiac. Imagine the type of sophisticated equipment the US has developed since then, to listen in on Colombian officials today.

14 years after the death of Pablo Escobar the coke keeps coming into the US as it did when Pablo was King of Medellin.

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Lcacique says on Nov 3, 2007, 17:00:

MT: you hit on quite a few important points. I would add that the US is more interested in killing guerillas than they are in killing the cocaine trade. Getting rid of the drugs is just a way to weaken the FARC in their eyes, which is the major reason that they are sending aid to Colombia. By getting rid of the opposition they can make sure that the tables are tilted in their favor for the benefit of US firms.

Besides the Cali Cartel getting more involved in the trade, so did poco's friends: the almost saintly paramilitaries. Power simply changed from one pair of bloody hands to another.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

b bruce says on Nov 3, 2007, 17:09:

Hey, cocain does not seem to be the problem in Barranquilla. Did you ever try to buy some glue. I went into a department store to buy some glue to repair a ceramic piece I purchased for friends. Damn, It was worse than a drug deal goung down. Everyone who worked in the store put me through the third degree. Two forms of identification doodah,doodah,doodah. Is there a glue sniffing problem in Colombia? When you would discuss cocain the locals seem to get angry!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

mranderson says on Nov 3, 2007, 17:24:

I have a friend here in Medellin who told me that Pablo Escobar is a god, and a great man. I think she is a bit wacky so I don't talk to her anymore.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Medellin Traveler says on Nov 3, 2007, 17:37:

mr anderson -

What else does your friend have to say?

Remember the late Joeseph Kennedy, not the most famous bootlegger, but definitely one of the most influential bootleggers in US history, He was involved in illegal activities, and amassed a great wealth through his illegal endeavors. And, I would think many folks thought him crazy when he said his son would be president of the United States of America. But then... well you know the rest of the story.

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

0 funny, 0 helpful.

droble77 says on Nov 3, 2007, 18:41:

My take was always that the money Escobar spent on Medellin's poor was just chump change compared to the BILLIONS [we're talking Carl Sagan billions here! ;) ] he amassed in his cocaine empire.

It's like a Park Avenue multi-millionaire tossing a few quarters to a bum he walks by.

Plus, I'm sure a lot of that philanthropy was just part of the money laundering process. Don't ever think someone like Escobar is going to give his money away without some kind of PR or financial benefit. There's always a mecanica with these avispado types. ;-)

I read the book nearly 2 years ago. It's a fascinating story, and highly recommend it to everyone here to read it if they haven't already asap!

The really crazy part was that there was a time when Escobar was truly the most powerful man in Colombia, more powerful than the president. I can't remember all the details now, but I believe there's an episode when the president (Gaviria) gives an order to move Escobar to a different facility to limit his influence and shenanigans (his "prison" was actually a luxurious palace where he was still indirectly running the show) and the whole episode turns out to be a humiliating farce for the govt. with Pablo escaping!

Let's also not forgot a long list of car bombings, assassinations, and the blowing up of an Avianca airliner killing 110 people.

If he was still alive today, we would call people like that a terrorist.

Now I'm a pretty liberal guy, I believe in rule of law, Geneva Convention, etc. etc. . . but when it comes to really evil people and megalomaniacs (and I think Pablo fits that psychological profile to a T), then exceptions can and should be made. Strong democratic institutions can survive those "exceptions" and a free press helps keeps the guys running the show honest. Just look at the pounding Bush has taken for "bending" certain rules. That's a good thing because it shows how strong our democratic institutions are. When Dubya is gone, things will swing back a bit the other way, because that's how democracy works. Often slow and clumsy, but better that than a dictatorship.

This connects to why I think the U.S. tolerated the "colombian-style" justice a.k.a. "Los Pepes" . . .because the Colombian govt. had shown itself to be so weak, easily corrupted/bought. In any case, they targeted Pablo's friends and protectors, (not just innocent civilians like Pablo). Admittedly a devious (and yes, illegal) approach but something an "hijo 'e puta" like Escobar would have understood or appreciated. . . :0)

As for "selling their soul to the devil" that's pretty funny coming from the likes of MedellinTraveler. If Escobar had lived 10 more years, do you think MDE would be the city that it is today and that you would have a blog reporting about the progress it has made?

0 funny, 0 helpful.

RAAAY says on Nov 3, 2007, 18:41:

M.T..............you can say whatever you like about Joe Kennedy..................but comparing him to Pablo Escobar is a stretch.........................

And Coke is not addictive in Colombia..???.............You're obviously off your f**kin rocker....!!!

And as for nothing changing after they got Escobar.?????.............People in Medellin can walk down the street tonight and go for a beer....................in Escbar's time this was not possible......................

Go take more photos of Medellin and stop talking crap.............

.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Medellin Traveler says on Nov 3, 2007, 20:51:

RAAAY -

I would never compare that two-bit hustler Joe Kennedy who took a gamble and lost two sons in the process, to Pablo Escobar.

Also, never said that cocaine was not addictive in Colombia. As for as nothing changing after Escobar's death, I was referring to the influx of cocaine into the US, at least that is why the US was involved.... don't you remember the war on drugs? That's another joke! But don't forget to give the paramilitaries some credit for keeping the peace in Medellin, while they continue to be involved in murder, kidnappings and cocaine trafficking. But I guess this is a fair trade off, as long as the people can walk down the street.

"As for "selling their soul to the devil" that's pretty funny coming from the likes of MedellinTraveler. If Escobar had lived 10 more years, do you think MDE would be the city that it is today and that you would have a blog reporting about the progress it has made?" - drobble77

Who knows. Maybe Escobar finds God, changes his life, and uses all the money he made to transform Medellin into the best city in north, central and south America. Okay, I'm just talking crap here.

"As far as my initial post is concerned, and regardless of what Pablo Escobar did, what I feel is truly disheartening is the actions taken by the Colombian and US government to get one man, albiet a man who had enough power to terrorize a nation. The Colombians got into bed with the Cali Cartel, formed Los Pepes and resorted to the same type, again.. if not worse, criminal activities they were supposed to be fighting against. In the end, the Cali Cartel become more powerful, and the coke kept flowing into the US... as is the case today." - Medellin Traveler

What about the innocent people "they" killed in an effort to hunt down Pablo Esocbar; maids, drivers, cooks, lawyers (not that they werre innocent, they're lawyers) they even killed a seven year old boy and his father and stuffed them in the trunk of a car.

If your government resorts to these type of tactics, then anything goes as far as I'm concerned. If you can not look toward your government to protect you.. ANARCHY RULES!!

salmen,
There is no need to start another thread to reply to my post. You are more than welcomed to reply on this thread.

Thanks to all for your repliles. I am amazed that for the most part the replies have added great input as well as having created an interesting dialogue without anyone attacking others views. I applaud you all.

And thank you for reading my posts!!

p.s. I will take more photos on my next trip. But before that, I have many more photos to share with y'all. But only if you guys want to see them, will I post them.

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

0 funny, 0 helpful.

NJ C Rep says on Nov 3, 2007, 23:21:

Frm the looks of it.. Medellin is a pretty damn good city (after Pablo died)...

Say no to drugs...

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Chelesupercono says on Nov 4, 2007, 05:21:

Compared to the then Colombian Govt., Military, Police and all of the Paras.....at least Pablo did not suck up the the fucking Corrupt Gringos like the rest of them corrupt bastards, Pablo had to go because he did not accept the extradition of Colombians to the U.S. for dealing drugs!!! And I agree with that.......Pablo never lived in the U.S. and dealt drugs, he lived in Colombia.......and that was the root of the terror campaign that he waged against the Govt. NOT against the common people....yes, he was a really bad guy but far from the worst.......better a tomb in Colombia then a cell in Gringolandia......VIVA PABLO!!!

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Medellin Traveler says on Nov 4, 2007, 05:37:

Chelesupercono -

Good post!

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Nov 4, 2007, 06:19:

I still don't know what you mean by the thread title, but in my opinion, Pablo was a dead man walking from the mid-late 1980s on. If he really studied Al Capone and the various Italian crime organizations as he used to claim, he would have known that sooner or later the Colombian government, the US government, his chief competitors or even his own crime family were going to kill him.

The article below is about the capture and trial of his chief assassin - another thug, rotten since birth and serving 10 life sentences at a Super Max prison in Colorado. Blowing an Avianca plane out of the sky with two Americans on board is not a very good idea if you're trying to get the US government off your back. Einsteins...

http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archive_old/PAW95-96/04_9596/1108feat.ht...

0 funny, 0 helpful.

slguy says on Nov 4, 2007, 07:39:

"and that was the root of the terror campaign that he waged against the Govt. NOT against the common people"

I beg your pardon??????? That may be the least enlightened thing I ever read. There're relatives of several thousand innocent "common people" vicitms that would beg to differ.

You weren't serious, were you?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Chelesupercono says on Nov 4, 2007, 07:49:

There are always innocent common victims.....but they were not his intended targets.....just as the same innocent victims that are killed everyday by the U.S.A. in Iraq are not the intended targets....

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Medellin Traveler says on Nov 4, 2007, 08:25:

PUH-LEAZE!!

They are not innocent victims.. we like to call them "Collateral Damage" because to refer to them as innocent victims, someone might get the idea that the US is killing innocent people.

Googled Collateral Damage result....

By TChris, Section War In Iraq

After launching an attack with "precision weapons" that killed 20 Iraqis, including women and children, the Bush administration should start to wonder whether the first directive issued by a sovereign Iraq will be, "QUIT KILLING US!"

In a bloody surprise attack, the U.S. military launched precision weapons into a poor residential neighborhood of Fallujah on Saturday to destroy what officers described as a safe house used by fighters loyal to Abu Musab Zarqawi and perhaps, at times, by the fugitive terrorist leader himself. ... Images from the site of the blast showed two collapsed houses, with people in white robes picking through the rubble looking for buried victims and lost property.

La cuidad de la primavera, estoy feliz porque te vuelvo a ver - www.medellintraveler.com

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kalder says on Nov 4, 2007, 08:34:

"Is there a glue sniffing problem in Colombia?"

Yes there is, I'm afraid.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Chelesupercono says on Nov 4, 2007, 08:35:

Great Post!!! The evidence against the WAR CRIMINAL BUSH is overwhelming !!! He should have been hung along with Saddam......

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

0 funny, 0 helpful.

slguy says on Nov 4, 2007, 10:32:

Sooooo....110 victims on the Avianca flight, that missed the ONE intended victim - you claim this to be just an "oh well" moment?

Ever heard of the Darwin Awards?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Lowell says on Nov 4, 2007, 11:46:

A poster said that they don't "Cut" drugs in Colombia. Ok. So whats "Perico", thats sold cheaper than "Roca"?

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

0 funny, 0 helpful.

john_stark says on Nov 4, 2007, 21:38:

Personally I think they should have killed Pablo's wife and children as well.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

robi666 says on Nov 4, 2007, 21:40:

They tried, John, but they just managed to make his daughter almost deaf...

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

0 funny, 0 helpful.

john_stark says on Nov 4, 2007, 21:46:

How odd. Killing is usually something Colombians are very good at.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

robi666 says on Nov 4, 2007, 21:59:

Not when they start playing with bombs and remote controls and other "high tech" stuff...
Now with a machete or a revolver's shot right in the face, yes, they are usually good.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

0 funny, 0 helpful.

john_stark says on Nov 4, 2007, 22:16:

Their propensity for violence is one of their most appealing characteristics. Sure enough they're best doing the killing the old-fashioned way.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Chelesupercono says on Nov 5, 2007, 14:20:

Pablo killed a lot of people no doubt.....but maybe 10% of the numbers killed by the various Colombia Govt. organizations....by far....funny nobody talks about that........maybe the families of those pricks should have been killed first.....

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

0 funny, 0 helpful.

slguy says on Nov 5, 2007, 16:42:

"Pablo killed a lot of people no doubt.....but maybe 10% of the numbers killed by the various Colombia Govt. organizations....by far....funny nobody talks about that........maybe the families of those pricks should have been killed first....."

I follow the logic. Why castigate a guy who only killed thousands of innocents for his own megalomania, when other organizations kill more.

So- by this logic, we should just ignore people who only kill once or twice, or even serial killers. After all, they only kill a few. Give 'em a pass.

My 5-year used to try that logic on me, too. "But Dad - Tommy did it more times than me!"

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Chelesupercono says on Nov 5, 2007, 17:00:

That is NOT what I am saying at all.......why is there so much said about what Pablo did and NOTHING about what I said above....thats all and yes 10% is 10% So tell me how much you actually know about the other 90% ? Like most people, not jack chit......sad

Pablo could not hold a candle to those pricks!!!!

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

0 funny, 0 helpful.

poco says on Nov 5, 2007, 18:54:

My original Statement: "Got to love the Paramilitary. They are a true inspiration and shows WHAT IT TAKES to win against Money, Terror and Power. Chokes me up everytime I see it."

Quote: They utilized Terror more than any other illegal entity in the country and they fought for Money and Power. That is undeniable, and anyone that What the at $! at are you talking about? The paramilitary armies did not fight against Money, Terror and Power. What world are you living in? cannot recognize that should be wrapped up tight in a straightjacket and locked away in a padded cell. You want to be pro-paramilitary, that is cool with me. But have the balls to acknowledge reality.

Hummm,
You said: They utilized Terror more than any other illegal entity in the country and they fought for Money and Power. That is undeniable. (at this point,, heck,, what can I say).

Then your diatribe goes on to say: The paramilitary armies did not fight against Money, Terror and Power. --- Now you’re saying they did not fight against Money, Terror and Power. ????

I see the gist of your post but am at a loss to determine where my original statement is in question? Maybe the wording???

Maybe fighting terror with terror is a problem? You do believe in winning, don’t you?

Anyway:

Yes, los pepes fought against Money, Terror and Power. That was what Pablo Escobar was all about.

Quote: You want to be pro-paramilitary

I’d say the central government has little or NO control East of the Mountain range where Bogota is located,, or,, a little more than half of Colombia.

The government has control over most (95%) municipalities West of Bogota,, excepting some areas on the coast (Choco) and some areas between Cali and Ecuador. They have presence but the FARC and/or their sympathizers KILL SOME of the National Police sent into terrorist infested areas. I’d say ALL are killed but that is an exaggeration,, because some TOW THE LINE and I can’t fault them for that.

The government has control of most of the main roads West of Bogota. I’d guess about a kilometer either side

This leaves about 99% of the country that is not controlled by the government. Surely you are not so naive as to believe 90% of Colombia is in anarchy?

Nope and those lucky enough to live in an area controlled by the Police, Military and some other actors,, OK,, NOT FARC have a pretty nice life. We’re talking about being somewhere you’d want your mother to live. No new jobs but peace,, for a change.

I’d suggest you quit reading propaganda papers and spend time finding out how the poor people who are NOT a “�picture child� for some NGO publication really live in a majority of rural areas in Western Colombia.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Lcacique says on Nov 5, 2007, 20:55:

Get it right poco, the original order of my statement is as follows:

"The paramilitary armies did not fight against Money, Terror and Power. What world are you living in? They utilized Terror more than any other illegal entity in the country and they fought for Money and Power."

The first sentence is in response to your comment. And what I am saying seems pretty clear, but go ahead, mix it around, try and make it look like I'm contradicting myself.

poco said:
"Maybe fighting terror with terror is a problem? You do believe in winning, don’t you?"

No, I believe in losing. I want Colombia to remain a violent country forever. Give me a break...

So you really believe that the utilization of a right-wing terrorist group to counter a left-wing terrorist group is going to win something. What? Peace? For how long? At what cost? And what happens when political opposition rises up again, call up the paras to silence it again?

I do not get my info solely from NGO's (what? are all NGO's fronts for communist organizations? are all human right's workers communists? What a sad place you inhabit if you believe that people concerned with the well being of others must inherently be some "evil" commie bastard). My knowledge, while I do not claim to be an expert by any means, comes from a wide variety of sources, including the US government which, if anything, would be biased towards the paras. And there is an interesting pattern that develops after researching this topic: the paras over and over are described as being the perpetrators of the most human right's abuses in the country and they're heavily involved in the drug trade. Even the right-wing government in power in the US at the moment acknowledges that fact.

Of course the poor people are going to say they support the paras, just like they said they supported the guerillas when they controlled those areas. It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. To reject them is a death sentence. It only takes a couple examples to learn that one.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

robi666 says on Nov 6, 2007, 13:39:

"This leaves about 99% of the country that is not controlled by the government. Surely you are not so naive as to believe 90% of Colombia is in anarchy? "

It seems that everyone being in a gang and not being a guerilla is called a paraco.

It may be useful, to put things in a context and understand who we are talking about, to read something like http://www.seguridadydemocracia.org/docs/pdf/boletin/boletin16Completo...
and understand the difference between Superestructuras, Estructuras en formaciòn and Mafia. Like to understand the consequences on the AUC of the Ley de Justicia y Paz.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Chelesupercono says on Nov 7, 2007, 15:23:

VIVA PABLO !!!

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kalder says on Nov 8, 2007, 02:27:

Viva the Son of Sam and Charlie Manson! They didn't take any shit from The Man either!

Woo-hoo!

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Chelesupercono says on Nov 8, 2007, 05:18:

That's a bit of a stretch.......Pablo was never a nut case.....

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Nov 8, 2007, 08:12:

Define nut case.

"But his rise to infamy cost the lives of three Colombian presidential candidates, an attorney general, a justice minister, more than 200 judges, dozens of journalists, and over 1,000 police officers."

The item above is just a starting point. Hundreds more were killed or maimed - the Avianca flight 203 bombing, the DAS headquarters bombing, the Palace of Justice debacle (his involvement continues to be debated, I believe) and so on. And he played no small part in the culture of violence/corruption/extortion/impunity that continues to this day. For what? Individual greed, power and the desire to prevent extradition.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

slguy says on Nov 8, 2007, 08:24:

I've decided Cheles is just yankin' our chains. He's too literate to actually believe this crap he writes. I hope.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Miguel says on Nov 8, 2007, 08:28:

Chain yankin' 101;-D

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Chelesupercono says on Nov 8, 2007, 10:47:

Hey Tinto,

Most of the people you listed above except for the journalist...maybe, were just as corrupt or perhaps more so then Pablo....most of that information was and now more then ever is public knowledge...certainly the 203 bombing was terrible and Pablo deserved the death penalty for that, no doubt. However, I stand firmly behind my original comments that he was no worse then the criminals in the Govt. Justice Dept. DAS, Military, Police, Gringos, etc. No greed or power there I guess?

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Lcacique says on Nov 8, 2007, 11:33:

I do not condone Pablo's actions. Murder is murder. However, as Chele points out, there is plenty of blame to go around. When people call los pepes saints because they hunted Escobar down, it is ridiculous. They were also corrupt and indiscriminately violent.

For me, Pablo's sanity is questionable.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Chelesupercono says on Nov 8, 2007, 14:09:

Hell you got to hat off to an insane SOB that becomes the 7th riches man in the world.....putting blow up the nose of Gringos........lol

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Nov 8, 2007, 15:00:

I would be highly skeptical of that Forbes estimate. Have you ever looked at it? It's like "the internet doubles in size every month" - often repeated but rarely questioned.

First, the whole exercise is one big guessing game and back in 1989, governments knew a lot less about production and consumption than they do now. Second, what did a lowly researcher at Forbes know, esp. when he/she had hundreds of other rich people to profile? Third, the Forbes article estimated the global cocaine trade at $30 billion a year and said Escobar controlled 80% of it. Could be, but the only way you can come up with a figure that big is to multiply total implied consumption by the street/retail price.

Using some figures from the mid-1990s:

- 426 metric tons reached a final destination (production minus seizures and consumption at origin and trans-shipment points; presumably valued dirt cheap at those two stages).

- Multiply by 1000 kilograms in a ton and again by 1000 grams in a kilogram.

- Then make up a number for the per gram selling price on the street.

- If you say it's $100 USD, and assume the Medellin cartel shipped 80% of global supply, you arrive at a whopping $34 billion USD. But if the "FOB" price when it left the airstrips of Colombia was only $4 per gram, that's a $1.4 billion dollar enterprise before costs (cost of of goods sold, bribes, assassinations, security, seizures and so on).

I've spent a massive amount of time researching this (ten minutes) and it's very easy to come up with a number that comes reasonably close to jibing with a United Nations research report that says Cocaine, Inc. - even at its peak - never amounted to more than 2 to 5% of Colombia's GDP. Someone else can look up the GDP from 15 to 20 years ago but I think it was in the neighborhood of $50 billion.

Note: The article below says cocaine can be purchased retail in Bogota for $4 a gram, so my made-up airstrip price might be way too high.
http://www.cocaine.org/colombia/legal.html

Bottom line: There's no doubt Escobar was rich but I'd bet the myths greatly exceed reality.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Chelesupercono says on Nov 8, 2007, 16:02:

7th or 700th......he kept those Gringo Hoovers sucking it up.......insane......I doubt it !

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

0 funny, 0 helpful.

slguy says on Nov 8, 2007, 17:19:

Tinto, you're exactly correct. Law enforcement ALWAYS uses street value pricing to make busts look grander than they really are. Even delivered here in the States, kilo pricing and gram pricing are two completely different animals.

Back in the day, Miami single kilo prices ran 12-15K, right off the boat or plane. Street prices of $50-60/gram were typical, after 2-3 steps. So a kilo went from 12,000 to 100,000 with all it's stops along the way, basically. But I never heard heard of anyone buying kilos to sell grams....

These wildly inflated numbers always made me giggle.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Chelesupercono says on Nov 9, 2007, 05:28:

VIVA PABLO!!!

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

0 funny, 0 helpful.