Killing of U.S. Judge shows how different the U.S. is from Col.

dwmte says on Mar 4, 2005, 15:26:

very poignant and important, mr. gomez... i appreciate your sharing your observations and thoughts on this.

although i cannot even begin to speak about some legal matters i was privi to in colombia--because of the high probability of reprisals--i am FULL aware of the dangers that not only the judiciary lives under, but attorneys as well. they are all, daily, scared to death. they never know when the 'hammer's gonna drop'...on them.

their fear of ruling in such a manner that might jeopardize their lives or their families' lives, distorts all their judgements and rulings. and as cruel as that appears, it is real and is presently controlling the judicial/legal system in colombia.

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jaramillo says on Mar 4, 2005, 15:51:

This is a first for her and hopefully it will be a last You mean the first time a judge's spouse has been murdered? Because several U.S. federal judges have been murdered in the last two decades.

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juancegomez says on Mar 4, 2005, 16:39:

In Colombia such killings and misc. forms of violent crime really only shot through the roof in the 1980's, when the drug lords flexed their muscles (with a little help from the guerrillas who partially woke them up before the state did anything...though one must also remember that this was a complex era, and this was also the time when the UP was exterminated too) and showed the state how weak it really was (the state had always been weak, but it had not been seriously challenged) and how strong the power of money could really be.

Given the proper actions and conditions, other Latin American countries can be equally "woken up" to their relative weakness. In fact, that's probably why express extortion/kidnapping has become such a good business in Argentina, Mexico and other places, I believe.

Everyone was shocked at first, from what my elders tell me, but after a certain number of shocks the system can't take it anymore, you just don't feel anything, but you still have to get on with your life.

Unfortunately, even if today these killings happen more rarely in Colombia, they still happen more often than elsewhere in the world, and we have gotten used to this as well.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 4, 2005, 16:43:

jaramillo.... Several US judges have been murdered in the last decade???
Can you name me one?

Please don't make assertions without 1 shread of evidence to back u p your contention.

I will also say that to the extent that you can find one that has been murdered, I will guarantee that you cannot find very many if any that was murdered as part of an attempt to influence a decsion that he was comtemplating.

With the above said, I think you now have some research to do. Please don't take random snots in the dark without any evidence to back them up.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 4, 2005, 16:55:

Tinto...I respectively disagree You are not too concerned because you have not seriously taken the time to consider the ramifications of what happens to a county when it loses its independent judiciary that we, as US citizens depend on. One of the reasons that Colombia is so dysfunctional is because it's citizenry cannot rely on it's lawyers and judges to do justice on their behalf. I

IF you cannot see that as dangerous, then you have been living in Minnesota too long and you need to go back to Colombia and try to seek legal redress in ANY type of manner or, see if you are going to get a fair deal in a court when someone is wrongfully sueing you.

Sorry Tinto, the media, liberal, conservattive, and moderate alike, seem to recognize this problem if you don't.

Essentially though, my point was not really to debate whether the press response is overblown, or the public understands this danger as well as American lawyers like myself. But what you cannot argue with is what I was trying to really bring out in the posting. And that argument is that the American response to what you consider not such a serious problem, is a hell of a lot better to the Colombian response to a legal/justice system that is one of the most corrupt and unreliable systems in the entire world. The US will never be like Colombia, and sadly to say, at the rate Colombia is going, Colombia will never achieve a fair and impartial system like the US has.

Where there can be no justice, there can truely be no democracy. As the legal system is the guardian of any truely democratic institution

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 4, 2005, 17:02:

Juancegomez....and therein lies the problem I hear that all the time-----------Good Grief!!
"We have gotten used to it."

Well my answer to that is a simple one. Getting used to a system that doesn't work, not only means that it doens't work, it also means that there is no incentive to do something about the problem to make fix it, so that it will work in the future.

Isnt't that what you are really saying ?

Sad....Very sad.

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juancegomez says on Mar 4, 2005, 17:40:

To a certain extent, yes...and of course it's sad, very sad indeed.

On the brighter side, things are already getting better on a local and slower scale (see Bogotá's progress over the last few of administrations, for example...people make fun of Mockus, but his weird antics did make people think).

The new justice system ("el sistema penal oral/acusatorio") has only begun to be introduced and in a limited fashion, but it will surely have some positive effects in the legal side of the matter, in the long run.

Because in the end, truly changing all these things takes time.

And while there's a war going on, the mental and physical resources (both those on behalf of the government and those provided by individuals) allocated to resolving this can only be so little at a time and their effectiveness is clouded by the conflict itself and its environment.

A good part of the safety that exists in countries like the U.S. is dependent on perceptions rather than just on the specific actions of the police, and even that's also heighthened by the perceptions created around the actions/reactions of local communities.

We've always been behind in properly developing all of this (in part due to our different colonial heritage...both structurally and contextually), as are most of the other Latin American nations.

But a bloody war, obviously, even a relatively limited-scale one like our own, hinders everything.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 4, 2005, 17:52:

juancegomez.....very good point You make some good points and I am glad to here about the progress that is being made-- at least to some degree.

Good Post!

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 4, 2005, 20:35:

Thanks Lina..................Very good post !!!!! thanks. I am glad you see get my point !!

I just don't know what it is. Is is it denail? Is it a feeling of hopelessness that causes people to just "give-up?"

I am Colombian American and I can tell you.....it irritates me to no end for my fellow Colombians to come up with excuses for not wanting change

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 5, 2005, 11:24:

Silly comparisons Some of the comparisons between Colombia and the US are plain out silly. Might as well compare Bangladesh with Venus. Of course, when Colombia enjoyed a relatively peaceful existence, the assassination of a minister or of a newpaper director was a cause for national shock. But we are in the midst of the intensification of one of the most complex internal conflicts I have heard of. The killing of public officials is absolutely deplorable, but you can't judge the reaction of public opinion without putting a bit of perspective to these events.

This is not a thing that Colombians need to learn (but thanks for the patronizing tone, Gomezman). When we say that "that's the way things are", most of the times we are describing a situation, not setting a norm. The Colombian judiciary system is probably one of the most inefficient in the world, but that's a reflection of Colombia's situation, not of the character of its people. We wouldn't otherwise understand why our legislation is constantly adjusting the system, as Juance described, in order to make the small improvements that are possible.

Colombia doesn't need to make knee-jerk copies of other systems because they seem to work. It needs to look at solutions that are appropriate to its own context. The US judiciary system seems, in some respects, appropriate for a relatively stable, first-world, kind of society. I don't know if you may have noticed, but that's not Colombia. Not only that, there are aspects of the US system that I find unacceptable and I hope neither Colombia nor any other country will adopt (e.g., death penalty, legal entrapment, sentencing minors as adults, outrageous sentences for drug posession, Guantanamo, aspects of the Patriot Act... oh, well, the list is pretty long).

GiB: I found a book that you may be interested in:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0399513051/qid=1110051003/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-2561042-7913535?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

"I am alone, and they are all together"
Denis de Rougemont, on a 1936 Nazi rally

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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kernow62 says on Mar 5, 2005, 11:46:

Oh shock horror!

This is silly comparing the US to Colombia, as if Colombians condone the sort of behavior. Of course they don't, but when you live with something it becomes more part of the norm, it doesn't have the same shock value. This is a bit like comparing the UK to the USA, where I grew up a murder was a relatively rare thing, I move to the US and it happens every day in just about every major city, people don't bat an eye and it certainly doesn't seem to shock people. You get used to it. Same with the death penalty, I don't know how many people the US execute each year but it doesn't hardly make the news when someone is executed. That in itself is shocking.

You cannot judge one country and the peoples seeming ambivalance (sp?) to an act that in your country would send shockwaves through society. People are extremely adaptable and we adapt to living in societies with differing values..

In some counties they breed St. Bernard dogs for food, shocking; or is it?

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kernow62 says on Mar 5, 2005, 11:49:

Gomezman5 you don't live in Colombia, perhaps if you did you might have a different outlook on this subject. It is only when you walk in the shoes of another... well you get my drift.

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platano says on Mar 5, 2005, 22:23:

Fear exists in the US too with so much power in the executive I do not like to compare Colombia and USA but I want to respond.
Right now in the USA the president only has to point a finger and say the words "enemy combatant" and the person can be legally arrested, transported to an "undisclosed location" and held without charges, without access to a lawyer, for as long as the president wants them held. Basically forever. They can also "disappear" (y todos los colombianos saben la palabra desaparecidos y la cancion de Ruben Blades)

This ability to be "disappeared" is a legal reality in the USA and many people have been rounded up. I'm sure you have all heard the reports of torture of detainees in many different prisons set up by the USA. The USA also does what it calls "extraordinary rendition" which means deporting someone to a country where they are pretty sure the person is going to be tortured by not nice people. (not just in Iraq either)

So Colombia has its problems, nobody can deny, but be careful not to glorify the USA, especially at this moment when fear rules and civil liberties are diminishing in the USA and you can be called "unpatriotic" if you practice free speech and question. The USA now has high officials with very ugly pasts. Both Negroponte and Gonzalez have acquiesced in, helped train torturers, or argued in favor of torture. It is a new ball game in the good 'ol USA. And they are playing hardball.

Peace out! Colombia es la berraquera!

plátano

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Lionheart says on Mar 6, 2005, 00:09:

the end of democracy? platanisado pointed out some very strong points ... and they are effecting the visas many here are trying to receive, as some posts have stated. Homeland security and other executive powers have received rights to mess with our freedom and former personal rights. We do not know what research is done on our requests.

"These stories don't affect 99.99% of us nor do they result in a rash of similar crimes"

I see more crimes will happen like this, out of plain frustration. Many smaller acts aren't reported nationwide anymore here, as well.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 10:38:

Sr Tertius "The Colombian judiciary system is probably one of the most inefficient in the world, but that's a reflection of Colombia's situation, not of the character of its people."

I cannot say that I would agree with that assertion. The reason that the Colombian justice system is as corrupt as it is, is because the people....its citizenery allows it to be so. That is what you are really need to say. In the US, whether you agree with the decisions of the state legistlarues or congress, decisions are made by the people who are duly elected by its citizenry. Now do you get my point?
And therefore, quite naturally, democracy is still well intact.

A free thinking impartial judiciary is the hallmark of any democracy. I don't think anyone can challenge that assertion. Where there judges are unable to make fair and impartial decisions that follow what is their imterpretation of the law, whether it be the constitution or a statute, there cannot be a democracy of this nature.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 10:45:

GIB I think you are confusing a couple of points. Judicial activists, or those who believe that they have a quasi legislative grant of authoirty to interpret the constitution from a broad perspective, have alway been a part of our nation. The ongoing debete between judicial activism versus judicial passivism, has and never will go away. Therefore the various judges who overturn referenda, and statutes on the basis on constitutionality, still do so within the frameworkk of the law because of their liberal interpretations.

It is quite another thing to have an individual jude or his/her family essentially killed as a result of ruling that affected him or his political views. In all my years as an attorney (since 1988) I have never seen anything like this take place in the history of this country.

And, from what I am seeing, it is not likely to happen too quickly again, now that the relevant parties are on notice. The appropriate bodies are going to act proactively to insure as such.

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 6, 2005, 11:05:

We like corruption?? "The reason that the Colombian justice system is as corrupt as it is, is because the people....its citizenery allows it to be so."

And could you specify what would be the motivation for this? Could it be that people actually DON'T approve corrupt behavior -as many a election has shown- but are in a difficult situation to fight it?

Maybe some numbers could clarify this:

Colombia has the highest rate of murders per capita worldwide (.63 per thousand), and in kidnappings nobody comes even close to us (124 per million, the second one is Mexico, with less than ten times that rate). These are stats from nationmaster.com. And Colombia's per capita expenditure in justice is probably a very tiny fraction of the US's. And we are, mind you, in a pretty complicated internal conflict. You would think these sort of things would have something to do with the inefficiency of Colombia's judiciary system. If so, the comparison with the US (which is not facing anything nearly similar to Colombia's situation) is beyond silly.

I will not discuss the vices and virtues of the US judiciary system and its relationship with democracy because that is not the topic here. But it is quite naive (to put it nicely) to think that just by having the willpower to denounce corruption it will magically disappear.

"I am alone, and they are all together"
Denis de Rougemont, on a 1936 Nazi rally

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 11:10:

Kernow, how do a people get used to............ a government that is completely effectual and unresponsive to doing justice for its populace??? Do you see any sign of that here in the US??? Of course you don't!! The media and all governmental institutions are in high gear to prevent this from happening again. Time will tell if some efforts will be effective. I feel confident that it will.

Yes the Colombian people have gotten used to corruption of monumental proportion, riddled throughout all levels of its government, from the executive branch to its legislative, to it's judiciary.....my friend, that is something that we as Americans do not, and will not tolerate here --- not to any to any degree.

Your comparison to the high crime rate (murder) is not something that we as Americans ever have gotten used to. I disagree with that assertion. It is ALWAYS the lead story on the local evening or late night news. However, your comparison is unfair and is not analogous to the point I am making. Murder as well as all other crimes, are considered a crime against the state. That is why when you are tried for a crime, it is always either "The People of the State of ..... Vesus Kenwon or Gomes. If it is federal in nature, it is the United States versus ...the same. In other words we have a functioning government that works quite effectively at punishing those who commit crime.....Colombia does NOT have such a system. If you want to kill someone, it is so easy to hire a sicario, and there is a strong likeliness that neither the person who hired the murderer, or the sicario (hit man) himself, will ever get called to justice.

I will say to you what I said to Sr Tertius. Disagreeing with principles of the American legal system, whether it be capital punishment or something else, is one thing. However, that is NOT the issue here. Capitol punishment is authorized by law.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 11:15:

Kernow....remember My parnents are from Colombia. I have more living family in Colombia than I do in the United States. I did live in Colombia for almost 10 months. I have been back every year for the last 20 or so years. And I read El Tiempo and Semana regularly....do I really have to live there to make the assertions that I have made???

I don't think so. Besides, to say that you have to live in a country to understand the type degree of corruption that exists in its government, just does not make sense.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 11:24:

Tinto, if you would reread my earlier address that I made to you, I think I lay out a very clear case as to why it affects people a lot more than you claim. Besides, your comment is just a repeat of what you stated earlier on. One does not need to be an attorney or even a specialist in government/political science to understand that you cannot have people running around killing off your judges who are responsible for making decisions that affect EVERYONE.

Sure you are not concerned now, but what if another judge gets killed next week, and 2 more 6 months from now. And then, some time in the future you will have a case in court where you are looking for a judge to make an idependent and impartial decision, I think you might then be a bit worried about your ability to recieve as we say
"Your day in court." In Colombian my friend, you never do get your day in court. Someone is either killed or threatened, or if you make it to court, you have a judge who has been threatened or been bought off. Am I making sense?

Right now, you and 99%of the people are not worried. Fine. It's up to the lawyers and elected officials who are in the system everyday looking after the common man's interest to correct the problem, so that you never will get to the point that you are worried.

We are not Colombia....and thank God for that !!

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Copete says on Mar 6, 2005, 11:38:

The US's "impartial" judiciary "A free thinking impartial judiciary is the hallmark of any democracy."

If that's the case, then the USA is far from being the world's gold standard. For instance, I've always been appalled by how openly ideology-driven the US Supreme Court justices are. You can almost predict how judges like Thomas and Scalia (and even chief-justice Rehnquist) will vote in particular cases, given their well-known far-right political agendas. A recent example was their support for the death penalty for juveniles. So predictable of them, and yet so outrageous, although fortunately in this case they were part of the minority. Sadly, they were in turn part of the majority that ordered to stop all recounts in Florida in the 2000 presidential election, and handed the presidency to Bush. But nobody seems to make a fuss out of this; a group of 9 ideologists whose decisions affect the lives of millions of people not only in the US, but also around the world.

And what's worse is that the problem is structural. The president appoints these people directly, and does make sure they follow his political ideology. And with 3 justices about to resign in the next 4 years, the situation will only get worse. So, I don't think Americans have much to gloat about their judiciary system, especially at the ranks of high-level federal courts.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 11:39:

Sir Tertius You make some valid points......Mostly that Colombia is one hell of a
messy place to live in. Of course there is a relationship to between all of Colombia's other ills, and a poorly functioning judiciary.

All you have just done is make my case, a case that I have been making all along on this site, is that 99% of the people who come here..to this site (PBH) and try to put rose colored glasses on a sorry situation, our people who like being deluding themselves into thinking that Colombia is not as bad as people make her out to be

She is every bit as bad....and worse !

Essentially, you have given me the reason for Colombia's poorly functioning judicial body. I was not here to debate the reasons. I know the reasons.

All I wanted to do from the onset of my posting, is make the point....(which you just did for me) that when people say STUPID things about how crime in the US is comperable to crime in Colombia, and that when they go to place like Cali for two weeks and say things like "I didn't have any problems", they really don't make any sense at all.

Poor funtioning government, and a poorly functionn judicial system, is a social ill that I could never tolerate....and would never choose to live in such a place. Some of these people out here who have chosen to do so, especially those who live in this country who are headed there to live, really are clueless as to what they are walking into.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 11:50:

Coepete Judges are human beings. And no matter what mechanism you choose to appoint these individuals, they will carry with them to the bench, their own pre concieved notions about how society should function.

So I notice that you take aim at the conservative justtices and those appointed by President Bush. Are you also prepared to attack the liberal justices who dominated the court for many years who imposed their will on society????

What about the liberals who sat on the court in Row v. Wade who created their own legal fiction (the right to privacy)......a fiction found no where else in state or federal law (I challenge you to prove me wrong) ..that gave women the right to abort (kill) a living fetus.

And what about the laws validated by the supreme court affirming affirmative action requirements. This law allows governments and private industry to impose quotas and set different standards for people based on their race or ethnicity?????/ I think only liberal judges cemented that law into place.

So .....my question is...do you have a problem with these judges and their law making???? I do.

I just want to know if your consistent.

Anyway, that is not what this posting, or this message board is about. The posting and this thread is designed to compare Colombia and the US.

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 6, 2005, 12:07:

Clueless? We are apparently speaking different languages, because I don't see how we are making the same point, I don't see where are the 99% of people who embellish Colombia's situation (I'd guess 10%, maybe 20%) and, despite its disfunctional judiciary, Colombia is not a "hell of a messy place to live in". Not being paradise doesn't mean necessarily being hell. And if you definitely can't live in a country with a fully functional judiciary system, that's your taste. Of course I'd like to see things improve, but by following your strict rule I would have to restrict my residency to the US and Western Europe. That seems to me like a excruciantingly boring way of living, but that's just my taste, certainly not "cluelessness". I've lived in Colombia for 14 years, so I have an idea of what I am talking about.

"I am alone, and they are all together"
Denis de Rougemont, on a 1936 Nazi rally

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 12:25:

Sir Tertius Colombia in not a "hell of a messy place?" Well, I don't know if we are speaking different languages, but we sure use different standards in deciding where life is worth living. Sorry partner, but it is hard to imagine a lot of place much worse to live in....a few...some places??? Yea...they're out there. But can you even mention them without laughing in your attempt to compare which place are worse. I'll list a few....(Syria, Iraq1, Congo,) get the point?

And yes, I would rather live in the US or Western Europe. And by the way, I would bet you that most Colombians would too!!! Did you ever bother to check how many people would do almost anything to get out of Colombia. Can you blame them? Who likes living in a society where most live in povery. And what about all those Colombians that come to the US and over stay their visas. There are about 50,000 of them in South Florida alone. Come on, give me a break.

Also you forgot about, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Puerto Rico, a bunch of other latin American countries like Chile, Argentina, and yes even Mexico....just to name a few.

By the way....where do you live?

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platano says on Mar 6, 2005, 12:54:

Violence Against Judges Must Be a Problem in the US If there wasn't a problem with violence against judges in the USA, then people wouldn't have to write articles about it like this one:

Preventing Targeted Violence Against Judicial Officials and Courts

by Bryan Vossekuil, Randy Borum, Robert Fein, Marisa Reddy
The ANNALS of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, Vol. 576, No. 1, 78-90 (2001)

Vale!

plátano

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 6, 2005, 13:00:

Don't have to go to Sudan... There are certainly many places in Colombia where I wouldn't like to live, but probably wouldn't mind visiting. However, since you ask about worse places to live, I'll give you a comparison (again, I think we are talking about tastes, which are hardly debatable): If you gave me a choice between Long Island, NY (where I spent 4 years) and any urban area in Colombia, I'll take the latter in a blink. I'm sorry if there are any longislanders here, but man, talk about a horrible place to live (thank goodness NYC was in the vicinity). I'm not going to get into details, because that's not the point. I am living now in Tempe, AZ, a much better place, and I hope you asked me about this out of curiosity, not because you want to advance some ad hominem argument. Soon I will be considering job opportunities, and if it depended completely on me, I would rather take a job in Bogota than in many places in the US (having an American girlfriend poses a problem still unresolved).

Now, I can say that because I am a rather privileged Colombian, never faced serious poverty, had a good education, etc. etc., and if I go back to Colombia I can pretty much keep a relatively high standard of living (at least according to my scale). Sorry, but that's very far from hell to me. You may argue that that isn't the case for most Colombians, and I would completely agree: what I am arguing against is your blanket statements.

If you are going to calibrate your mess-o-meter according to migration to the US, then you would have to conclude that Mexico is the bottom pit of hell. But, we know, it isn't. Your argument doesn't stand because people mostly migrate where labor opportunities are better, not generally running from a disfunctional political system (an important proportion, but I bet you it isn't the majority).

"I am alone, and they are all together"
Denis de Rougemont, on a 1936 Nazi rally

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Copete says on Mar 6, 2005, 13:21:

US' vs. Colombia's judiciary Gomezman5,

Sure, you can say the same about far-left as about far-right justices. I just thought the example of the far-right justices was outrageous enough in exemplifying how the impartiality of the US judiciary can so often seem more like a bad joke. And it's not getting better anytime soon. In fact, the New York Times pointed this out as their greatest concern about the reelection of George W. Bush.

And I do think this is relevant to the comparison between the Colombian and the US judiciary. Because, given that low-level Colombian justices do have to deal with (and often yield to) improper pressures regarding their decisions, it's quite remarkable how independent the Colombian high courts are. It all begins with a selection process which is not nearly as politically biased as in the US. A Colombia Supreme Court justice is chosen by congress from a group of 3 nominees appointed by 1)the President, 2)the Attorney General (who's typically a member of the opposition), and 3)one of the other high courts. The result is a court that is not a mirror image of the current president's political mindset.
And this is shown by many of the courts' rulings. High courts, such as the Constitutional Court, very often make decisions contrary to the president's agenda, and this occasionally results in clashes between the executive and the judiciary, as you would expect from two truly independent bodies. For instantce, right now there's high expectation in the country now that, despite Uribe's overwhelming popularity, the Constitutional Court seems set to rule against the constitutionality of the act recently passed by congress allowing Uribe's reelection.

So, it's not all doom and gloom with Colombia's judiciary. In fact, I do think the US could learn a few things from us (and other countries as well), if it were not for the self-righteousness that makes it a country sickeningly incapable of self-criticism. I think this whole discussion would be more productive if the original intent, unlike Gomezman5's, were to give a balanced view of Colombia's system, which after all has been democratic for many decades, however imperfect it may still be. If your intention was just to show the "the US will NEVER be like Colombia," and how better off you are living in and being a citizen of the US, congratulations. Now would you let others who are actually concerned about Colombia discuss constructively about how things can be improved.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 13:48:

Sr Tertius "what I am arguing against is your blanket statements."

Blanket statments are indeed just generalizations. Nothing more.
Nevertheless, there is absolutely nothing wrong with generalizations...noting at all. My blanket statements ALWAYS have some type of factual baisis. Your own statements seem to make my case all the more. You said, and I quote,"I am a rather privileged Colombian, never faced serious poverty." That right there says the miseries and dilemas that face %99.987654 (just a guess) society, does not affect you in the least. So you will return to Colombia some day. You will have your 5 dollar a day maid. The same maid that falls into the 99%. Your cheaper costs for medicine, and car repairs. Your cheaper housing will be nice. Are we moving to Bogota?
Chico, Santa Ana, Uincentro, Andino, or somewhere similar on the north side?

But, when the requests for money come by phone (extortion) or kidnapping threats come in.....after the very first one, you are going to at least ask yourself why you went back to Colombia. You will ask yourself about why you left Tempe AZ (it's nice there, especially now with spring training in high gear--Go Cubs!) and you might even long to live in Long Island!!!

I don't know.....I hear some some contradictions here.!!

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 14:10:

Copete...you make some good points and... Honestly, I was not aware of exactly how the Col. Supreme Court was chosen. But it sounds like it may have a greater degree of impartiality than ours. However, I was not speaking of impartiality in terms of imposing a justice's political beliefs on a legal system. And you should have seen that in my original post. I was clearly speaking more from the perspective that judges in this country (the US)need to be fair and impartial in their abitly to hand out justice without the fear of being intimidated and threatened from one of the parties before that particular judge.

The lower courts is where every day justice is applied. They never make law. They only apply law on a case by case basis. Only courts of review such the various appelate courts and various Supreme courts interpret the law.

May I also add that the various state appelate and Supreme Court justices are appointed by blue ribbon committees or by direct election of the states citizenry. You took the US Supreme Court as an example of the problem of having the president imposes his political view on the US. But pardon me, the problems of justices not being able to decide who is a murderer, or who broke a contract, or who didn't pay their rent, or who is guilty of drunk driving, are not decided by the US Supreme Court. These are the courts that I am talking about wen I speak about how justices are unable to hand out justices because of a coruption and intimidation that exists on a massive scale in Colombia.

Look, call me wrong but, article after article has already been written throughout the US warning our citizenry about how sad the situation is in regards to Colombia's judicial situation. There judges are threatened and killed, making it nearly impossible to get a "fair shake" or excuse me, JUSTICE rendered when needed. When I go to court, on behalf of my clients, that is what I seek. Maybe you are content with a system where if I was representing you, and I walk into court thinking I will get justice, but instead I get I a judge who had been influenced by outside forces and therefore making it impossible to get justice on your behalf, .....I am not. Give that some thought.

Finally as Sir Tertius points out above, until the civil war and all the other domestic turmoil is somehow controlled, any hope at improving Colombia's beleaguered judiciary, is only a distant dream

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vladimiro says on Mar 6, 2005, 17:16:

FYI Gomezman, Syria has almost NO violent crime. "I'll list a few....(Syria, Iraq1, Congo,) get the point?"

My grandmother goes to Syria for vacation every year and to see Syria listed alongside Congo and Iraq just goes to show what a warped view Americans get from thier media with respect to countries that their government is hostile towards.

A quick google search confirmed what she says: Syria is one of the safest countries in the world (and with the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world it has an extremely rich culture - the shakespeare-level writer quoted below used to teach in Damascus for example.)

Crime rates of Japan, Syria, and USA compared.

According to the INTERPOL data, for murder, the rate in 1999 was 0.95 per 100,000 population for Syria, 1.10 for Japan, and 5.51 for USA. For rape, the rate in 1999 was 0.29 for Syria, compared with 1.78 for Japan and 32.05 for USA. For robbery, the rate in 1999 was 0.07 for Syria, 4.08 for Japan, and 144.92 for USA. For aggravated assault, the rate in 1999 was 0.06 for Syria, 23.78 for Japan, and 323.62 for USA. For burglary, the rate in 1999 was 15.58 for Syria, 233.60 for Japan, and 728.42 for USA. The rate of larceny for 1999 was 9.32 for Syria, 1401.26 for Japan, and 2475.27 for USA. The rate for motor vehicle theft in 1999 was 2.69 for Syria, compared with 44.28 for Japan and 414.17 for USA. The rate for all index offenses combined was 28.96 for Syria, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4123.97 for USA.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/asia_pacific/syria.html



"Look at the full moon, how it has disrupted our sleep,
It shines from the seventh sky at our homeland in ruins" -Rumi

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 17:52:

Vladimiro uh excuse me...no crime and a repressive government??? I have heard some strange things on here, but yours is about one of the strangest. Guess what, Cuba has no crime either. In fact, I will bet Cuba has less crime than Syria. But who would want to live in Cuba??? Tell me the answer to that please. One of the reason that these countries have no or very low crime is that there is no liberty, no freedom of the press. Human Right Watch, would take issue with your assertions about Syria. Are you Syrian by any chance???

So Mr. Vladimiro....just so you and I are on the same page. Let reivew Syria's track record:

1 Arbitrary or Unlawful Deprivation of Life ---Common
2.Disappearance

There were no confirmed reports of politically motivated disappearances. Many persons who disappeared in past years were believed to be in long-term detention or to have died in detention.

3Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment

The Constitution prohibits torture, and the Penal Code provides punishment for abusers; however, there was credible evidence that security forces continued to use torture.

4. Arbitrary Arrest, Detention, or Exile
5. Denial of Fair Public Trial
6.Arbitrary Interference with Privacy, Family, Home, or Correspondence
7 Freedom of Speech and Press

The Constitution provides for freedom of speech and the press; however, the Government significantly restricted these rights in practice. The Government strictly controlled the dissemination of information and prohibited written or oral criticism of the Government. The Government also prohibited sectarian issues to be raised. Detention and beatings for individual expressions of opinion that violated these unwritten rules occurred. The Government also threatened activists in an attempt to control behavior. Journalists and writers practiced self-censorship.

Syria/.......sounds like a great place to live. No go do some more research

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jaramillo says on Mar 6, 2005, 17:52:

Gomezman
Several US judges have been murdered in the last decade???
Can you name me one? Please don't make assertions without 1 shread of evidence to back up your contention.

You are right, not in the last decade.

Three federal judges have been assassinated in the past 25 years.

1979-U.S. District Judge John Wood killed by the mob.
1988, Richard Daronco, a district court judge in New York City, was killed by the father of a litigant.
1989, 11th Circuit Judge Robert S. Vance of Birmingham, Ala., was by letter bomb

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 18:03:

3 judges in 25 years????? My God......how scary that is? Tell me something, are you OK??? Really are you? You are going to compare three judges in 25 years to the way that Colombian judges are killed or their families are threatened? Look, if you are suggesting that a judges life can be totaly insulated from reprisals, I would say absent giving 24/t protection, that would be an impossibility.

Your posting is so strange, it virtually makes my point about how much our judicial system an it's judges are far better than Colombia's. 3 killed in 25 years.

I have not even researched your assertions to know if they are true. But if they are, then I would say that is great!! Did you know that there are about 1700 federal judges that include, district jusges, appelate judges, bankcruptcy judges, and magistrates (they have the power of judges except they are not appointed for life).

1700 judges in a system and in 25 years....only 3 killings. Sorry friend but based on that, I don't think there could be a better place in the entire world then the US to be a judge.

Try again

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jaramillo says on Mar 6, 2005, 18:07:

Gomezman Don't stop taking your medication. You said “This is a first for her and hopefully it will be a last”. I simply said it was NOT a first. I did not make ANY comparisons.

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vladimiro says on Mar 6, 2005, 18:18:

Gomezman... Gomezman5, can you please tell me why your government denies you your constitutional right of free travel to Cuba? Probably because there would be more Americans in Cuba than Cubans:)

And no I'm not Syrian or Arab, but like I said, my grandmother has been traveling to Syria for decades as do thousands of others from MidEast, Asia, and Europe. Many Europeans do live in Syria, by the way, probably more than live in Colombia.

"Look at the full moon, how it has disrupted our sleep,
It shines from the seventh sky at our homeland in ruins" -Rumi

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 18:21:

Jaramillo...I was referring to "her" as in the federal as a US district court judge that was presiding in a matter that was unrelated to the alleged person/group responsible for the killing.

But, I will keep taking my medication anyway....per your advise.

3 judges in 25 years --with 1700 in the system. I would say we have a real problem on our hands.....Yea sure!

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 18:27:

Vladimiro.....I guess you find most posting about Syria acceptable. Look there are fools everywhere. And based on what I know, as well as what I posted....and believe me, give me time and I can find much much more about your beloved Syria, the country that has created its fair of terrorist groups and to this day is the home of Muslim extremists that would just love to take our poor little Catholic Colombia (most are you know) and try them all at street side for being a bucnh of Christian infidels that are not loyal to Allah and Islam........I just don't think it is a very nice place. This is true even if Grandma likes to go there.....God only knows why?

Yea...ok budddy.....I will look to you for the world's answers

BTW, there is no Constitutional right to travel to a certain nation?
Did you read the same Constitution as I did when I was in law school?
Or maybe there has been an amendment that I am not aware of. Please let me know about that -- would you?

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vladimiro says on Mar 6, 2005, 19:01:

Did you skip the Fifth Amendment? The US government is violating your constitutional right to Freedom of Movement. The right to travel is also a part of the "liberty" of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment. As with many unconstitutional laws Americans are prohibited to travel to Cuba on the pretext of national security.

Ofcoarse, the US can't let its people travel to Cuba because, as I'm sure you know, wave after wave of Americans would rush to Cuba. This would undercut the hate-propoganda and any war-mongering options that US might be considering.


"Look at the full moon, how it has disrupted our sleep,
It shines from the seventh sky at our homeland in ruins" -Rumi

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jaramillo says on Mar 6, 2005, 19:19:

Your writing, Gomezman is totally incoherent ("Jaramillo...I was referring to "her" as in the federal as a US district court judge that was presiding in a matter that was unrelated to the alleged person/group responsible for the killing.) People ask you to clarify it (as I did), and you respond with another incoherent and not pertinent statement. To paraphrase Pauli, I do not mind people writhing a lot, but I do mind them writing faster than they think.

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 6, 2005, 19:41:

"There is absolutely nothing wrong with generalizations..." As long as they have "some type of factual basis", right?

So, are all the generalizations about Americans that have some factual basis correct? Let me take a trip through your sense of logic: because Colombia leads in kidnappings per capita, I will definitely be threatened if and when I get back. Ergo, pretty soon you and I are going to be in jail, because the US leads by far the number of prison inmates per capita. Nice logic.

It seems pretty difficult to keep up with the discussion here, particularly because your point keeps shifting conveniently as you find errors (and don't acknowledge them) in your previous posts:

Your first point was that the Colombian justice system could learn something from the US's. I showed you why that wasn't necessarily true.

Your other point was that corruption in Colombia happens because people allow it to happen. I showed you again why that is an incorrect statement.

Also, your assumption that the US's and Colombia's systems are comparable makes no sense.

Then you shift to Colombia being "a hell of a mess", and that "those who live in this country who are headed there to live, really are clueless as to what they are walking into". Again, that is not necessarily true: people can live a very fulfilling life in the midst of relatively high levels of crime an corruption. In fact most human beings live like that. And if your point was to show this... why do you bring us a story about the relatives of a judge being killed in the first place? Was it really necessary to make your point?

Now you seem to qualify your statement a bit, and claim that of course, because I will be living in Sta Barbara, have a maid, or whatever you choose to fantasize, oh yes, sure, you can live quite happily like that. I thought of pointing out your made up percentages and faulty assumptions... but it would probably just turn out that your point was something different... it's quite tiresome to argue this way.

Ultimately, you just want to tell us that you don't want to live in Colombia, or Syria, or any part of the third world. Great. Many of us don't share your taste. Is it so difficult to live with that?

"I am alone, and they are all together"
Denis de Rougemont, on a 1936 Nazi rally

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 22:39:

Vladimiro That is a strange interpretation.

"The right to travel is also a part of the roght of liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the fith amendment."

That is the strangest interpretation (and a misinterpretation, if I may add) I have ever seen. Where did you get your law degree Mr. Vladimiro???

Here is a some help. You might want to consider reading some legal materials that talk about "procedural due process" and also "substantive due proccess". They are different. In either case however, they both relate to denying a right to YOU personally or some property that is in some way connected to YOU!!!!

I can right for an hour about what this involves....but not here on PBH. In summary, there is NO such due process right entitiled to YOU when the government makes a blanket prohibition that is preventing you from someone connected to this country from engaging in a certain acitivity in another jursidiction which by the way is not what is actually happening here.

The US does not in any way shape or form prevent US nationals from traveling to Cuba....How about that? What it does do is effectively prevent the use of US currency, either directly or inderectly, in the country of Cuba thereby effectively making travel to Cuba prohibited. If you don't believe me....look it up for yourself. Therefore your assertion that you are being denied your due proccess by not being allowed to travel to cuba...is an incorrect one.

Since the embargo and related prohibitions on Cuba has been around since the 60's, I can't think of any case that has prevailed on the merits using the argument they you have posed. If it would have prevailed, those Cubans in Miami would be a migghty unhappy bunch.
But since you are a new self-proclaimed scholar in constitutional law, I think you might want to give it your best shot and take the Bush administration to court.

Good Luck

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 22:44:

Jaramillo...what you consider incoherent........ may actually be a result of you lacking the capacity to comprehend what I have written. Did you ever consider that in reality that is what might be happening here???

I have been accused of a lot of things. Being incoherent is not one of them. But then again there is always a first. Maybe if I was drinking my Crown Royal today I would give some credence to your contention. But that was Thursday evening.

Anyway....good try.\

G5 (The incoherent one)

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 22:58:

Sr Tertius.....you and....???? tend to take things out of .... context....What a shame

Did you ever take a course in logic....If you did you would have some problems my friend because your logic is poor. I can refer you to a web site that gives tests in logical reasoning for free....

Let's start with your first assessment. You are correct in saying that since Colombia has a high amount of kidnappings, you stand an increased risk of being kidnapped should you return to Colombia.

You fall down completely in your second analysys. Because the US has one of the highest population of people imprisoned, does not mean that you stand a higher than average chance of being imprisoned. Being sent to jail is not some arbitrary act that you have no control of...is it???? It is not as if people in general go to jail by virtue of them conduction their daily lives. Going to jail requires what is know as "a conditon precedent(S)" in order to be sent to prison.

That conditions precedent are 1. you must comitt a crime. 2. You have to be arested for the comission of that crime and 3. You have to put on trial in a court of law and THEN convicted of the crime you are charged with. That is quite a bit.

Now, where do you compare that to simple having to "be" in Colombia, and nothing more than that, to run the risk of being kidnapped. Granted there are some activaties that may or may not decrease or increase your risk of being kidnapped, but there is/are no such conditon precedents that are absolutely required in order for you to be kidnapped

Hence your kidnapp//////going to jail analogy fails. Again, take a course in logic and or logical reasoning. I did at University of Illinois {(29-1) in basketball and the best team in the country}, and I got an A and B+ respectively.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 6, 2005, 23:08:

Ultimately Sr Tertius Like I said to Jaramillo, maybe it is because it is you who like to parse words and take things out of context, you feel that my arguments are contradictory. You respond to part of my discussion while ignoring the other essential parts. Then after we end up far off the subject I originally posted, you want to accuse me of not being clear. I just prove to you above that you have a somewhat poor sense of logic. So why should I give any credence to what you are saying at this time

Maybe it is you who don't understand what I am saying because you feel that the only way you can effectively respond is by selectively responding to certain parts of my conversation.

I will agree with you as to one thing at this point. It is becoming quite tiresome to argue over this matter with you anymore. Therefore, let us now just agree to disagree, and abandon any further communication with each other as to this thread.

Peace.

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jaramillo says on Mar 7, 2005, 06:36:

B+ logic from the “University” of Illinois. That sounds about right. A little logic is a dangerous thing. You see, if you start from false premises, you can reach false conclusions (isn’t that called reductio ad absurdum?). Let’s take an example:

“Going to jail requires what is know as "a condition precedent(S)" in order to be sent to prison.

That conditions precedent are 1. you must comitt a crime. 2. You have to be arested for the comission of that crime and 3. You have to put on trial in a court of law and THEN convicted of the crime you are charged with. That is quite a bit.”

Perhaps, these three statements are supposed to impress upon us the virtues of the U.S. system of justice. Are you really that naïve? Let’s consider the first premise: You must commit a crime. In Illinois (where that wonderful institution that you attended is located), that is not the case at all. In fact, you can be sentenced to death (a fate slightly worse than being kidnapped) without having committed a crime at all. For that reason governor George Ryan imposed an executive moratorium on the death penalty, stating that "We have now freed more people than we have put to death under our system -- 13 people have been exonerated and 12 have been put to death," Pretty damning. There are thousands of innocent people in jail in the United States who have not committed a crime at all, and it is only because DNA evidence, a relatively new tool, that some have been exonerated.

Samuel R. Gross,Thomas & Mabel Long Professor of Law at the University of Michigan Law School, and his colleagues heve examined this issue:

“We found a total 328 exonerations in that 15-year period, 316 men and 12 women; 145 of them were cleared by DNA, 183 by other sorts of evidence. They had served an average of over ten years in prison for crimes for which they should never have been convicted. Four defendants were exonerated posthumously, after they had died in prison”. He adds “Any plausible guess at the total number of miscarriages of justice in America in the last fifteen years must be in the thousands, perhaps tens of thousands.”

The police in the united states is corrupt, In new Orleans corruption is so rampant that the justice department considered indicting the entire police department as a criminal organization. In certain cities (e.g. L.A.) rogue cops routinely frame those with the wrong skin color. “Almost all the juvenile exonerees who falsely confessed are African American. In fact, one of our most startling findings is that 90% of all exonerated juvenile defendants are black or Hispanic, an extreme disparity that, sadly, is of a piece with racial disparities in our juvenile justice system in general.”

In Colombia, violence is deeply ingrained in society. But so is injustice in American life. So, I think Tertius per capita analogy was quite apt.

Telling your college grades, showing your cards, so to speak, will not convince anyone that you can think straight. I don’t need to show you mine, but will give you a piece of advice: Stay away from Poker.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 7, 2005, 07:31:

Jaramello.....is there a point to this ? If you want to debate the issue personally. I don't have time for it. Otherwise, since you have decided to turn this into a personal war of words, which I will admit, I have allowed you to bait me into, I will now bring an end to it.

The subject of this discussion is clear. We shall return to it instanter. Or you can post, but there shall be no response.

Go ahead, I think I know you well enough to know that you insisist on having the last words. Go ahead. Fire away

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jaramillo says on Mar 7, 2005, 07:39:

Gomezman, I thought we were just starting to have some fun... Sorry to have offended you.

Peace.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 7, 2005, 08:01:

Tinto & Jaramillo Thanks for the admonishment Tinto....it was time for all involved.

and Jaramillo...peace as well......

Both of you have a Great day !!

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platano says on Mar 7, 2005, 12:43:

Everyone gets an F? For following thread topic? Judge in USA... In fairness it seems to me the discussion topic is not about Colombia. It is an invitation to discuss an event that happened in the USA to a judge and a challenge to see how the USA deals with the event.

In defense of my two posts the first noted that the USA has legalized the disappearance of persons who can be held without charge, without access to legal representation, and they can be held forever without anyone even knowing where they are being held. Colombia has no such legal provision. Such behavior in Colombia would rightly be considered extralegal.

My second post was not simply "an online reference" to back up an opinion. The source I cited is a peer-reviewed scholarly journal that is not even available online. And the purpose of the citation was to refute the factual error that this is the first time a judge has been assassinated in the USA. The article was published in 2001 -- four years ago -- and it is concerned with preventing any further assassinations of judges in the USA.

I would like at least a D for this effort, if not a C.

:-)

Vale!

plátano

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peeg says on Mar 7, 2005, 14:50:

articel proving several US judges killed http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0503020260mar02,1,7233965.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

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platano says on Mar 7, 2005, 17:35:

Thanks, Tinto, and now for a comparative judicial note I have friends who are librarians in both Colombia and USA.

In Colombia there are no judicial repercussions if a librarian speaks about an official visitor (from B2 or F2 or Sijin or DAS, etc.)

In the United States a librarian who speaks... a librarian who practices "free speech".... about an official visitor (from FBI or CIA or DIA, etc.) can suffer judicial repercussions and can be imprisoned.

I think it may be a little known fact in both Colombia and USA that USA librarians are under a gag order since the passage of USA Patriot Act. Section 215 prohibits free speech and can punish librarians with imprisonment for speaking of an official visit.

Colombian librarians do not live under such a gag order and have freedom to speak. Colombian librarians will not be sentenced to prison for exercising their free speech rights.

So, not only do USA librarians have "gagged spending", i.e., they are prohibited from giving dollars to Cuba, they also have "gagged speech" thanks to Section 215 of the USA Patriot Act.

¡Los pobres bibliotecólogos gringos sí están jodidos! (los de Colombia, no)

plátano

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 8, 2005, 12:42:

Peeg really--- do you want to put a dishonest twist On things. "3 judges have been killed since 1979"

3 judges in 25 years is not what I or any reasonable thinking person would call "several" or even alarming for that matter. You have to be intellectually honest with yourself----and others for that matter

That is out of a system of thousands.....come on...you sound silly.
Colombia has had more than 3 judges killed in one year

By the way, that does not include those judge that in Colombia are threatened all the time and therefore whose decisions are compromised due to intimidation.

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