Keep Your Nose Clean ...

dwmte7 says on Nov 23, 2007, 08:26:

along the lines of your post...i ran my businesses in the fast lane for years, berkeley, palm springs, malibu, santa monica and ultimately, bev. hills/west hollywood. all that time, all my business associates...nay, all my clients were into blow. i kept myself from 'trying' it for years, remembering the words of my mother..."keep your nose clean" i finally gave in, then moved to colombia...the rest is history.

dwmte

Lauthra says on Nov 23, 2007, 10:11:

I don't agree with the idea that a owning a gun automatically makes you a protected person. If someone is holding a gun up at you there is no way you will have time to draw yours before the other person shoots you. This person is seriously out of touch with reality.

Nato (='.'=)

vicshere says on Nov 23, 2007, 10:15:

i rather have one than not have one.... thank you very much

listo

nueva york bombero says on Nov 23, 2007, 10:16:

Ya think? I don't think it's a Colombian - American at all. Craigslist in Colombia hasn't caught on yet.
And the way he spells "una gringo"???
I don't know........
But I do agree with you Lauthra, out of touch!

scotty says on Nov 23, 2007, 10:19:

i agree with vic i;d rather have one than not have one, make the plying field even

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

Tinto (Moderator) says on Nov 23, 2007, 10:28:

I don't know if they use police sting operations in Colombia, but the ad sure reads like one the police could have placed OR that they'll respond to.

Alternatively, if the ad was placed by an individual, he's not too bright; he's setting himself up to be robbed.

Rob77 says on Nov 23, 2007, 10:29:

Criminals always have the upper hand . . . THEY know when they are going to attack you, and THEY are prepared. As Lauthra says, that element of surprise does not give you a chance to respond with a gun. Trying to can turn a situation more deadly that it might have been.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

nueva york bombero says on Nov 23, 2007, 10:32:

Here in New York, Police are all over Craigslist. For drugs, prostitution, you name it.
It sounds like you're right once again Tinto. Are you running for office yet? jk

Robert Jorge says on Nov 23, 2007, 10:54:

Tinto articulated the first thing that popped into my mind when I read that ad.

Rob77: "Criminals always have the upper hand . . . THEY know when they are going to attack you, and THEY are prepared. As Lauthra says, that element of surprise does not give you a chance to respond with a gun. Trying to can turn a situation more deadly that it might have been."

Not always true and also a very valid point. It depends on the situation. If somebody puts a gun to your head on the street and demands your wallet, of course the person should comply. The chance to defend yourself never presented itself. But there are MANY crimes that can and are successfully defended against or deterred by the possession and use of a firearm.

For the record, I don't carry, haven't for 10 years now, and do not feel the need to. But I think it is personal choice, and stats show that where people are legally allowed to possess and carry concealed weapons, crime rates drop. An example of a place where most non-criminals are NOT allowed to carry: Washington DC. Check out their violent crime rate for the past 30 years.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

nueva york bombero says on Nov 23, 2007, 10:57:

D.C. is a war zone!!! I refuse to go down there. It's mostly black on black crime (nota rascist comment) BUT IF YOU'RE in the middle of it, kiss your ass goodbye!

slguy says on Nov 23, 2007, 11:02:

I was born in DC. I went up there to visit some friends a couple years ago, and stopped by the liquor store on the way to their house, so as not to arrive rum-less. The next person in the door was a shotgun-wielding robber, who was the scariest individual I ever saw. You know how crazy people LOOK crazy in the eyes? This guy was loony tunes.

I left on the first flight out in the AM. Who needs that crap?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

nueva york bombero says on Nov 23, 2007, 11:35:

Yeah, now I know why my friend in Cali never wants to come and visit the states!!!

kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:18:

I would never get a real gun In Colombia i rather buy a BB gun those pellets can be dangerous too.

I saw some good ones, they look like the real thing in an sport shop in Villavo

engage brain before opening mouth

nueva york bombero says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:21:

Oh please! No! Don't shoot me with your BB gun!!! It will really really hurt!! Jk

kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:23:

No, really some of those pellets are made with metal, shoot someone in the eye with this and he's done.

Fancy a try? hehehhe

engage brain before opening mouth

kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:23:

I have one here that shoot cotton buds

engage brain before opening mouth

vicshere says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:23:

hehehehe kat too funny......I have been shoot with a BB before the most they will do is sting....you just going to piss the guy off..then what happens......when you carry a gun and you pull it out it has to be for a dam good reason...then you need to be prepared to shoot the SOB

listo

kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:25:

I don't know what type of BB gun you are talking about Vics, but th eones the guy show us in Colombia could really hurt you.

engage brain before opening mouth

vicshere says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:27:

sorry kat BB are BB and they work with compressed air.....they sting and maybe cut the first couple of layers of skin...but put you down in a pool of blood NO

listo

nueva york bombero says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:30:

Listen pal, don't mess with a mad woman with a BB gun!! I'm sorry I ever said anything!!!

kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:31:

yeah, but who will know that is real hehehe

engage brain before opening mouth

nueva york bombero says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:34:

The big release for the CO2 under the handle is a dead giveaway, but I wont tell anyone Kat!!!

vicshere says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:34:

sorry kat but you can win this ... a BB can be spotted easily first the little hole at the front is much much smaller than any gun.....and if you use it and you don't bleed you will be dam pissed...I would strongly advise anyone NOT to use a BB gun as self-defense....I have a funny feeling I am losing this argument

listo

kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:40:

shall i use my eyelashes instead? heheheh

engage brain before opening mouth

vicshere says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:43:

just use your irresistible charm and convince them not to take your stuff

listo

Robert Jorge says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:49:

I know the bb gun thing was a joke. But adult airguns can and do kill. You would never want to have one for the purpose of self defense. I worked with a guy who in his early teenage years was the youngest person charged with a capital offense in the State of Florida. Long story short, he thought it would be funny to shoot the mailman. (Federal Employee). The mailman got hit in the upper chest, the pellet traveled through his chest and left out of his back - above the shoulder. Anyway, an adult airgun can be very dangerous and I have seen pictures of wild hogs taken by airguns.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

Robert Jorge says on Nov 23, 2007, 12:51:

Oh, and the mailman was ok after surgery, the kid's judge dropped the initial charges to much lower charges, the kid spent time in Juvenile - that was that.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 23, 2007, 14:01:

my son got one of those pellet stuck on one of his ears, we had to take him to ER to be taken out it was not nice I tell you

engage brain before opening mouth

kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 23, 2007, 14:04:

Oh btw Hw that happened? well he was having a war fight with his friends and Btw one of my favourite wall clock got smashed by one of those pellets, and they were the plastic ones, imaging the metal ones....

engage brain before opening mouth

yummyj says on Nov 23, 2007, 15:21:

Dollars will be dollars. Unless you are talking Canadian to USA dollars, in which case the Canuck buck is destroying the Yankee buck. Anyone predict that?

Thank you Mr Bush...for your guns and being such a terrible leader.

miamimike says on Nov 23, 2007, 15:36:

I have a Benjamin Pellet Pump-up in a 22 Cal used exclusively for the Screaming Cats below my Balcony. I pump it up 5 times for the "Job". I "touched' one Screamer the other night maybe 50 feet away-on Impact he took off up the street like he was shot out of a Cannon---a virtual black streak--next he reversed directions and ran back at me. Thought I would get a second Shot but then he tore off sideways. A Good Nights work if I must say. He hasn't been back since but I'm ready if he returns. He won't sleep on my Car's hood anymore I'm willing to bet! LOL

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

Lowell says on Nov 23, 2007, 16:06:

As a kid i had a pump air gun that could penetrate a galvanized trash can. I think it was a Crossman.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

Chriscan says on Nov 23, 2007, 16:49:

I have guns back in Canada but I don't keep ammo in the house. Having a gun is more likely to get you killed than save you no matter how well you use it.

************* WARNING ************* my words often come from my ass

Robert Jorge says on Nov 23, 2007, 23:40:

Yep, a cheap $40 dollar, 10 pump Daisy or Crossman can kill. 650 feet per second out of a .177 pellet / BB. A high quality airgun like an RWS, Diana, etc. delivers a .177 caliber pellet at 1000 to 1300 feet per second. That folks is getting into .22 caliber rifle power. You can also hit an aspirin tablet at 50 meters consistently. High powered pellet rifles are the most accurate rifles in the world. (under 100 meters) I have killed more animals with an airgun than anything else. Way more.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

miamimike says on Nov 24, 2007, 06:36:

BB hand Grenade? Naw, a Benjamin 22 Cal Pellet Pump Up is the best medicine. These are really high Quality Pellet rifles and if you Pump it up 10 times(about the max), I would guess you have close to the Velocity of a 22 Cal Rifle with 22 cal Short Ammo. For my Money, the Benjamin(one of the oldest manufacturers of pellet rifles in the USA) is top of the line. I lucked out and bought mine for a miserly $20 used on Miami's Craigslist several months ago. New, they retail in the stores for around $100-$120. Mine is the marine model with a crome-like plated barrel(technically its nickel plated) to stop salt air rust and Feared by the Alley Cats of North Miami. LOL
My Benjamin:
http://www.cabelas.com/information/HuntingOptics/BenjaminSilverStreaka...

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

Lowell says on Nov 24, 2007, 08:43:

BB grenade = M80/cherry bomb, with BB's glued to it. Used the M80's trick on chummed fish.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

gatogris says on Nov 24, 2007, 09:26:

The question of whether or not to own a gun for self-protection reflects a classical logical fallacy. Reliable statistics have been available for over 20 years on gun ownership - the data conclusively reflects the fact that it is more dangerous to own a gun than not. However, this does not stop individuals from imagining scenarios where a gun saves their lives, or, for that matter from those scenarios occurring. But like old Aristotle wrote, arguing from the particular (i.e. I'd smoke the bastard because I'm fast like that) to the general (i.e. having a gun makes people safer) just don't wash.

Furthermore, the tendency is to support these types of arguments with anecdotal reasoning, as in - "I new a guy who new a guy who capped a robber that tried to rape and murder his daughter, so now I keep a loaded nine mili in every room."

Here in New Orleans, which is the U.S. murder capital (where they murder for capital), you see a lot of people going through this dilemna. The results are predictable. When fear meets up with logic in a dark alley, fear has the nine mili, and logic just has kat's eyelashes.

Robert Jorge says on Nov 24, 2007, 09:34:

Gatogris: You said: "However, this does not stop individuals from imagining scenarios where a gun saves their lives, or, for that matter from those scenarios occurring." I will not bore the forum by posting it, but I could site thousands of scenarios that were very real, documented, and definitely not imagined, of people successfully defending themselves with a firearm.

By the way, congrats on New Orleans regaining it's title. A little town in my home state is a big rival of New Orleans when it comes to the murder per capita title. Gary, Indiana.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

gatogris says on Nov 24, 2007, 09:40:

No argument with the fact this happens, but it doesn't change that owning a firearme is more dangerous than not. From a statistical standpoint its just a question of orders of magnitude - there are 3,000 piano tuners in New York City, as my stats prof used to say, but its still an incredibly rare job.

As for N.O. goes, I'll be in Colombia in a few days and will breath a sigh of relief.

slguy says on Nov 24, 2007, 09:53:

One can argue statistics from almost any perspective, and make logical, sensible conclusions from them.

Having experienced personally the benefits of having a handgun when an intruder entered the house where my family and I slept - I'll choose to ignore the statistics, thank-you-very-much.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

gatogris says on Nov 24, 2007, 10:07:

An understandable conclusion to reach. If I had your experience, I'm sure I would be tremendously tempted to ignore the statistics as well.

But as for the statement that statistics are so flexible as to support almost any conclusion, I won't go along with that. Besides, this is a very simple declarative statement: "owning a firearm is more dangerous than not" and is easily tested with readily available data. Not even the NRA argue this point - the leg they stand on is the second amendment.

Furhtermore, statistics are probably the most common toolkit for policy of every major institution in the developed world - from states to banks to corporate bodies and not the least the marketing division of firearms manufacturers.

From my cold dead hands!

vicshere says on Nov 24, 2007, 10:15:

right on slguy.....stats don't mean shit to me...I will take my chances with a gun...in the street or at home....the way I have my house built ...any SOB in my patio or house doesn't belong and I will shoot first ask questions later.....nearly impossible for anyone to be inside my property by accident...unless they drop in from the sky.....I have a 4 meter high wall all way around

listo

gatogris says on Nov 24, 2007, 10:38:

I have a buddy here in New Orleans who keeps a locked-and-loaded AR-15 converted to full auto by his front door, and an illegally cut-down Ithaca semi-auto 12-guage with the plugs removed on a powerful magnet attached to his fridge, a Sig Sauer with the safety off in his bedside table and a .357 loaded with dum-dums in the front hall.

He's worried about his two young daughters, but I notice that sometimes when he gets drunk and high he likes to take out his guns and touch them and talk about what would happen to the first jueputa that tries to come in his house. He likes to describe it very graphically. Somehow, it doesn't always inspire the greatest confidence.

slguy says on Nov 24, 2007, 10:46:

Oh puhlease.

Statistics can always be manipulated to support one's viewpoint. I would be more inclined to believe the "owning a firearm is more dangerous than not" statistic if the data only included well-trained owners of firearms who also had a true willingness to use them if the situation warranted it. Your statement makes no distinction between some grandma who has her dead husband's WW2 .45 in the house, but has never touched it, and probably forgot it was even there, and a police officer's duty weapon in the nightstand. See my point?

I certainly don't claim overall, your statistical claim is untrue. But show me the same data for owners of handguns who are also vets, cops, etc- or even folks who have had basic firearm safety/use/self-defense training, and I'd be surprised if your statement still holds true.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

vicshere says on Nov 24, 2007, 10:46:

Raay stop being an asshole noone asked for your comments about me

listo

Lauthra says on Nov 24, 2007, 10:47:

GIB, in my opinion if you pull a gun out on a robber that's armed with a knife, you've just thought him to get a gun for next time. I don't want to convince anyone into my way of thinking (gee I'm getting old :P), I'm just against violence, gun and knife owning. Some crazy person on (Penn & Teller's) Bullshit once said that the best way to make everyone safe if it's everyone in America owned a gun, but in my mind, then someone gets a bigger gun, and has the upper hand, and in the end (in my, albeit, exagerated mind ) we'll all be driving tanks with bazookas. :)

Nato (='.'=)

RAAAY says on Nov 24, 2007, 10:48:

What makes you think it is about you.....??

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

slguy says on Nov 24, 2007, 10:53:

Lauthra, you make a point. But- you assume that the robber either a) lives to rob again, or b) doesn't crap his pants sufficiently after an incident like this to find a new line of work.

I heard a story on NPR (not exactly a conservative bastion!) not long ago about some small town that passed a law requiring ALL residents to own a firearm. The result? An immediate and very significant drop in the crime rate. Maybe this is anecdotal, but it's makes one pause and think....

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Lauthra says on Nov 24, 2007, 11:02:

Slguy, yeah it's hard when you don't really know what impact it will have on the robber or how that person really is. I just strongly belive violence breeds violence. I can never know how things will turn out, like in your story, which is a good thing. I just decide to stick to my non-violence policy ;) I don't know how crime rates are in, say England, where Policemen don't bear arms unless it's a special unit or what have you.

Nato (='.'=)

slguy says on Nov 24, 2007, 11:10:

You're correct, of course. Violence does tend to breed violence. But that horse pretty much left the barn already, dontcha think? ;)

I'm not advocating universal gun ownership- FAR from it. There's a TON of law-abiding folks that have no business owning a gun- because they lack the will to use it, if/when the time comes. These are the folks who are likely to get hurt or killed with their own gun, in my view- and I imagine the statistics will back up this assumption. Like GIB said- NEVER pull a gun unless you intend to use it. Too many folks think just waving a gun around solves the problem at hand....

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

slguy says on Nov 24, 2007, 11:22:

BTW- the guy who broke into my house? Turned out to be the 23 year old son of a neighbor that I did not know. Drug problems, etc. He became one of my "b" examples. With my approval, the court put him on a very tight probation, and the kid turned his life around. This happened maybe ten years ago, and a neighbor from those days I stay in touch with told me last year that the kid today is married and has a become a mechanical engineer. Cool, no?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

gatogris says on Nov 24, 2007, 11:24:

slguy - it seems to me what you are trying to get at is not whether statistics are useful (it would be pretty unreasonable to try to argue that they are not), but the question of how they are used, which are two substantively different arguments.

You are absolutley right that statistical data must be differentiated and sorted, but it still seems to me that you are basing your claims on personal, anecdotal evidence.

If the statement that "owning a firearm is more dangerous than not" is used to, say, justify the banning of the sale of semi-automatic assault weapons unilaterally, than it would seem you are against this, because you know yourself to be a trained and responsible fire-arm owner, and that therefor training is the key to safety.

But firearms safety courses are mandatory even here in Louisiana, where the politicians speak of their 'God-Given' right to bear arms and people cheer. It hasn't done much to slow the deaths.

If the data is sorted, and it turns out that you are right (which I suspect to be only marginally the case, statitically insignificant), then only rigorous training should qualify you to own a gun, and the more rigorous the better. In fact, if the hypothetical policy goal here is to stop the bleeding, which it should be, the training should be so rigorous as to exclude almost everybody from completing it.

As for cops with guns in the nightstand, in the U.S. at any rate, sorted statistics show that police have siginificantly higher rates of divorce, substance abuse, suicide and domestic violence than any other profession on record. Its a stressful job out on the thin blue line. But if one of the blue brotherhood wants to eat his own gun at least he won't have any problem gettin her done.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 24, 2007, 11:25:

"just use your irresistible charm and convince them not to take your stuff"

It works the other way too.
I used to know this gringo in Cali who got robbed at knifepoint right off Paseo Bolivar, in the shade of the matarratones there. The robbers handed him a bus fare back, they took pity on him, he was so little and ugly.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Portena says on Nov 24, 2007, 11:39:

I'm fine with gun ownership as long as the person is well trained in the relevant laws, knows his/her firearms, spends time out on the firing range honing his/her shooting skills, and is mentally healthy enough to make sound judgments in potentially dangerous situations. A family member of mine (owns several firearms) was in a situation once where it appeared someone was trying to break into the back door of his house. Turned out to be a little old man with Alzheimers who had escaped his family's house in the wee hours of the morning. A jumpy, trigger happy type would have easily blown that poor old guy away.

I feel better! I can smile at it now, I feel better. Ohhhh, better! Gnarls Barkley

slguy says on Nov 24, 2007, 11:43:

In principle we agree, GG.

BUT

The willingness to use the weapon is, I think, the key differentiating ingrediant in the mix- and I can think of no way to accurately measure this, statistically.

Of course you're right about all the job-related stresses in law enforcement- none of which I was alluding to. But it is pretty plain, wouldn't you agree that there is a vast difference, statistically, between the dangers of gun ownership by my little old lady, and a cop asleep in his home, if an intruder appears? I'd be shocked if they had equal chances of being being harmed by intruders....

Desi - your gringo friend? Pobrecitooooo! Was he any kin to Rodney Dangerfield? ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

vicshere says on Nov 24, 2007, 11:45:

"""I'm fine with gun ownership as long as the person is well trained in the relevant laws, knows his/her firearms, spends time out on the firing range honing his/her shooting skills, and is mentally healthy enough to make sound judgments in potentially dangerous situations.""""

now were are talking on the same page

listo

gatogris says on Nov 24, 2007, 11:49:

slguy - when you say "use" do you mean kneecap the guy or put one in the cortex?

vicshere says on Nov 24, 2007, 11:52:

gat ....when you fire a gun you have better mean to put the guy's lights out or don't shoot at all....just injuring the guy could get yourself killed in the process

listo

gatogris says on Nov 24, 2007, 11:53:

Desi - I know an old Jewish guy who claimed his father-in-law, a New York lawyer, conned a mugger into giving him back some of his cash while held at gunpoint by using the ol "c'mon, my wife'll kill me" line. I don't know if I'd try it.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 24, 2007, 11:55:

No, slguy. (had to google Rodney Dangerfield). He was short, skinny and soft-spoken. A little like Arthur Brode-type, except that he's none of that.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

vicshere says on Nov 24, 2007, 11:58:

Rodney Dangerfield......soft-spoken...is this the same RD I have seen on TV and the movies...I have to disagree soft-spoken...or are you pulling my leg??

listo

slguy says on Nov 24, 2007, 11:59:

I really can't answer that question, except to say - if that kid in my house had flinched, it would not have been his knees I targeted. Too much adrenaline flowing to trust my marksmanship, in that situation. Too much potential for the scenario to go even further south, for my family and me....

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

gatogris says on Nov 24, 2007, 12:07:

It'd be tough for me to live with splattering some kid's brains all over the wallpaper who could have turned his life around, become a mechanical engineer. But I don't have kids, and I know that changes things.

slguy says on Nov 24, 2007, 12:16:

I'd have had no problems. My kids have potential, too.

and Desi- Rodney's tagline was "I don't get no respect!" Funny guy....

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

vicshere says on Nov 24, 2007, 12:16:

think of it this way ...if you had to choose between your life or the life of a loved one and that of some puck ass kid who might become a mechanical engineer. .....what would you choose

listo

Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 24, 2007, 12:26:

No vic, the guy I was talking about was soft-spoken. The gringo that got robbed. That was a long time ago; we used to work together in Cali.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

vicshere says on Nov 24, 2007, 12:28:

oh crap wrong guy... I was think the american comedian

listo

Lauthra says on Nov 24, 2007, 18:16:

GIB,
"Things just happen too quickly and to me carring a gun to protect against robbers is not a good idea. Better to just hand over what you got." I could not agree more, OMG, its the first time we agree on something :P You stop being reasonable now arguing it's more fun :P

"In Colombia their are many more dangerous things than robbers and piece at your side could be a good idea."
What other things you mean, if you don't mind me asking?(kidnap?)

Nato (='.'=)

Robert Jorge says on Nov 24, 2007, 20:01:

I agree virtually 100% about what GIB said above. Prevention and avoidance is much better and wiser than getting to the point where you have to use a gun.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

Robert Jorge says on Nov 24, 2007, 23:32:

Aaron, GIB probably doesn't want others to defend him, and that is not my intent. But I don't see what provoked your posts. I never read anywhere where GIB was claiming to be "mature and wise". You came up with that one yourself. I think it is cool GIB shares experiences and stories. I have no reason to not believe them. Shit happens everywhere. I lived 3 years in the Miami area - 2 less than GIB in Bogota. I could share 3 stories about friends that were murdered, me being a State witness, busting people for shoplifting, witnessing all kinds of crime, etc. add nauseum. Why would a person living in Bogota not have a few experiences to share. I lived in Villavo for a whopping 4 months, and I saw a shooting, saw a few crimes, ... so what? GIB shares an experience, and you feel the need to knock him down.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 25, 2007, 03:44:

GIB, I've deleted the entire exchange between you and Aaron21; it served no other purpose than make trouble.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Aaron21 says on Nov 25, 2007, 06:40:

Yes Desi, my comment served no purpose as it was written and it should have been deleted. I will not be as crass, but I will express my thoughts on gringo's last post. Roberto, I was not calling him a liar in the last post. He obviously cleaned up the numerous spelling and grammatical errors, but that was not my issue with the post either.

My issue is that if the post is true, then he is not using good judgement in publishing it. He is admitting to a violent felony. From the facts given, he used his car to hit someone who he thought may do something to him - some guy who was simply walking in front of his car who was not displaying a weapon. That would not be the end of the story in Colombia, the US, or anywhere else in the world. A lot of questions would have to be answered. So, Roberto, what I am saying is that this is never a way to handle a similar situation (from the facts given) and it is irresponsible for anyone to make it seem plausible.

And if it is not true, well then I digress...

Cerealkiller says on Nov 25, 2007, 09:19:

Unless you live in the middle of no man's land I don't see the use for a gun. I learned how to shoot a gun when I was 16, because its tradition that everyone on both sides of my family has had some sort of military training. I do not own a gun, and I would never own it either unless I am ready to use it. I would never use a gun to scare someone away, because that only makes it worse. Scare someone with a gun and they'll start packing themselves, nothing worse than a fucking chimpanzee with a gun.
If I am ever to pull a gun out at someone, it will be to kill. I hope I never have to face a situation like that, because I am very much against civilians carrying weapons, it defies all logic in my opinion.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Robert Jorge says on Nov 25, 2007, 10:38:

My friend and I were in Paris. We got surrounded by gypsies within sight of the Eifel Tower. They tried washing our windows, we told them to stop, and then when they demanded payment, we refused. Two gypsies standing in front of the car were reminded that a turbo deisel Renault has more horsepower than two humans. They bounced off the hood and we kept going. Call it a felony if you want, but that's what happened. That is the end of that story.

Hell, my last day in Villavo last year, it was that huge festival where they shut down the streets and all the Llaneros ride through town on their horses and get drunk. I saw a truck load of drunken kids turn right rapidly onto a side street where there were armed soldiers crossing the road. The soldiers dove every direction. Nobody got run over, but the truck kept going, the soldiers dusted themselves off, end of story.

Anyway Aaron, I see your point in your last post. And it is very valid.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

Rob77 says on Nov 25, 2007, 11:29:

This thread has touched on interesting subjects. I wasn't thinking about the morality question of owning or not owning a gun. But rather, the practicality of owing one here in Colombia for a gringo.

When I first saw the post in Craigslist, I imagined a gringo, relatively fresh to Colombia, thinking the gun would balance out his lack of familiarity with his surroundings and feelings of insecurity.

It made me think of how much more valuable it is to get to know your new world here (beyond the Gringolandia between Atlantis and Parque 93!) than to purchase a weapon. A local guide and/or companion would be much more valuable than a gun. Just knowing when and where not to go, and who not to deal with can avoid a lot of conflict.

* I say relatively fresh here because, his Spanish was not that hot, and because if he really knew his way around, he would know how to purchase a gun without looking towards Craigslist.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 25, 2007, 12:50:

I'm very late to this party but agree it was a sting or a robbery setup, not a "legit" attempt by some dumb gringo to buy an illegal gun.

vicshere says on Nov 25, 2007, 16:58:

its always good to go prepared

listo

Aaron21 says on Nov 25, 2007, 22:21:

Phantom knives, bad analogies, and your endless blustering will not change what I said. From your given facts you committed a felony. In the real world you would have had to pay for it - yes, in Bogota, New York, Cartagena, even the worst hole in Port au Prince, Haiti. I suppose it is possible you were lucky that day and somehow escaped retribution. However, it does not change the fact that no one should do this anywhere in the world unless the knife or gun is actually present (i.e. it does not appear several hours and a few posts later). Furthermore, your follow-up in no way changes the fact that your post is at best irresponsible. It should be viewed with discretion and skepticism.

Robert Jorge says on Nov 26, 2007, 00:13:

Jajajajajaaa .... come on Aaron. I know a few cops in Colombia. One is a supervisor (don't know the rank term) in Bogota, and a couple in Villavo. They would have laughed and patted me on the back if I had bumped a would be robber with my car. Colombia is not the US. There is a lot more street justice and discretion present in Colombia. If a "bad guy" gets a reputation with the police in Colombia, they will probably have a very short life expectancy. My wife's neighbors had a son and daughter. They no longer have a son. The guy was into burglary and drugs. One day, he was found dead, shot multiple times. It was / is common knowledge in the barrio that the police took care of the problem.

In my opinion, I do not think what GIB did was irresponsible. In Colombia, like GIB said, that is called survival. In the US, I would also call that survival ... though I would be much more hesitant, because of the potential repercussions. Here, you can get sued if a home invader gets hurt breaking your window. In Colombia, I would imagine "if" the police even became involved, they would make fun of GIB for not breaking the guy's legs.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

Rob77 says on Nov 26, 2007, 03:50:

In some ways, living in Colombia is still like living in the pioneer days in the US. You can't count on the sheriff being around when you need him. You have to know how to avoid the most popular crimes or know how to protect yourself.

It's sad to say, but you get used to seeing crime right in front of you. Last week I was stuck in a traffic jam on 68 near Salitre, close to a bus stop. A group of kids took advantage of the situation to rob a vehicle stuck in the traffic. They go up to the window with a gun (s), you have no where to go. You give them everything. They run down the road to look for the next victim.

We felt lucky not to be the ones in their sights that night. Because you are literally trapped due to the traffic and they know it.

Five minutes later a couple cops on a motorcycle were seen driving in the opposite direction of traffic, looking for the guilty parties. But, it still seems rare to see such a prompt response.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

kalder says on Nov 26, 2007, 04:47:

GIB

What is your impression of the professionalism, committment etc. of the Bogota police?

Are they any good?

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

Rob77 says on Nov 26, 2007, 04:57:

Anyone have any experience using the 123 police emergency line? All I ever hear is that is gets flooded with people calling to tell them jokes and pull pranks on them. I have seen small street banners attempting to educate people on keeping the line free for true emergencies.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

vicshere says on Nov 26, 2007, 05:07:

GIB would say a rough percentage could be
75 % honest
25% dishonest

listo

Rob77 says on Nov 26, 2007, 05:23:

Without hanging around the police frequently, it would be hard to make an estimate of the percentage of honest officers. If you are just chatting with them in the barrio, they can seem as nice as anyone.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

Rob77 says on Nov 26, 2007, 05:38:

I am very familiar with the still current culture of subtle corruption. But it is not always in the form of a favor. I have been targeted plenty of times. The bribes were to kill invented violations, not to sweep away legitimate violations. They say if your car gets towed to the 'patio' due to a violation, invented or not, the final cost to get your car back and clear up the fines will be around 1 million. In that respect, paying a bribe is much better than spending the money to get your car back, invented violation or not.

The one time I was stopped for a legitimate reason, I was actually let go with a warning. Ironic!

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

vicshere says on Nov 26, 2007, 05:44:

hey once on a trip to Bogotá..I talked (with my bad Spanish) the transit cop out of a passing in a curve...he let me go and I had to force him to take a 20,000 to buy some beers

listo

kalder says on Nov 26, 2007, 05:45:

Great comments GIB- I'm much obliged.

I've only ever been a tourist there, but most Colombians I've spoken to, say the cops tend to do the best they can in very trying circumstances. One of which is the lousy salary. I've no idea about the payscales in Bogota, but in my wife's town in Valle, a cop starts on 700,000 a month, rising to twice that if he becomes Chief.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

Rob77 says on Nov 26, 2007, 05:49:

Kalder, amazingly, I've seen some cops with these theoretically low salaries, who end up owning a couple of buses they lease out. They supplement their income in subtle ways.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

kalder says on Nov 26, 2007, 05:51:

Owning buses? I imagine that's profitable.

Surely only a tiny minority could come up with the capital that'd require?

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

Rob77 says on Nov 26, 2007, 05:56:

The point is that police find their supplemental sources of income in the course of doing their jobs.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

kalder says on Nov 26, 2007, 06:13:

I took your meaning rob.

I'm just marvelling- that's an awful lot of graft you're talking about.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

Rob77 says on Nov 26, 2007, 06:27:

It's unfortunate. But corruption is still a basic part of the culture in many third world countries. Since I have spent a fair amount of time in Mexico also. I can tell you I prefer the Colombian police who see chance to make a little extra money while doing their job. Because I believe that many police here would actually step up to stop a crime if given the chance. Whereas in Mexico, the police are as corrupt or more so than the 'criminals'.

In Colombia, my reaction to seeing the police preparing to stop me is to think how much cash I have on me to pay them off, and to quickly separate their contribution from the rest of my cash before they get a good look at the total available.

In Mexico, there are more things to worry about. You do worry about them wanting their bribes, but you also worry about them kidnapping you for ransom or simply killing you and dumping your body off after getting your money. There will be those who will jump up to say they have relatives working as police in Mexico and they are honest. These statements are not meant to include 100% of the country's police force (maybe 70 to 80% jeje) Plus, your relatives may not want to tell you what they do to make ends meet while on the job!

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

kalder says on Nov 26, 2007, 06:48:

Interesting comment rob.

The Venezuelan police don't come out looking too good in 'Secuestro Express' either.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 26, 2007, 07:13:

Welcome Everyone! Its the GIB Storytelling Time.....grab some popcorn, and take a seat....this is better than Mr Toads Wild Ride at Disneyland!.....=)........Pura Mierdaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

Rob77 says on Nov 26, 2007, 07:18:

Clavo, you always manage to show up to add useful comments and constructive opinions.

Am I the only one asking myself where this forum would be without you? ^

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

Tinto (Moderator) says on Nov 26, 2007, 07:27:

Miguel Clavo - Ignore the stories if they're not of interest to you. Maybe GIB is full of crap or maybe he uses personal anecdotes to portray the entire city "his" way, but that's not against the rules. This stalking is going to come to an end. I warned you and Ray about it last Wednesday or Thursday. That was strike one. Strike two is a couple of posts above.

vicshere says on Nov 26, 2007, 07:35:

good job tinto now we are getting some where...like I said before coming here once or twice a day and only taking pot shoots at GIB or myself...like I said before and you have just said "stalking"

listo

Rob77 says on Nov 26, 2007, 07:41:

GIB, I coalesced with the law of the jungle here - larger vehicles have the right of way. I'm cruising in a large SUV, using all the learned aggressive habits displayed here. Most of my driving civility has been tossed out in favor or vehicular self defense. It doesn't take long to see that driving passively will get you no where. Taxi and bus drivers drive like they were in a competition in the Roman Coliseum! So, I figure, when in Roman, do as the Romans.

What I find humorous is when THE most aggressive drivers out there - the taxi drivers, get upset when I drive like them and cut them off! Makes typical slow traffic more entertaining!

I've gone through an evolution, from thinking honking at me was an insult, to considering it a compliment to my maneuverability skills!

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

Rob77 says on Nov 26, 2007, 07:46:

A used SUV, so I don't worry so much if the chariots eventually collide!

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 26, 2007, 08:11:

Tinto I warned yhem too a few days ago, does that count as strike two?

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

podborski says on Nov 26, 2007, 08:37:

my one experience with police in colombia didn't give me much reason to have a lot of faith in their abilities.

They stopped me on the street and asked for my passport, which I foolishly did not have (I usually carry a copy, but didn't have that). So they wanted to take me to the station. Fine I said, but why not just take me to my hotel and I'll retrieve it and show you and we'll be done.

Nope. They wanted to take me to the station. They said I could send someone to my hotel room to open my safe deposit box and get my passport.

When I explained to them that I certainly didn't think the hotel would let some random stranger in to open my safe deposit box, they seemed perplexed.

It would have taken all of five minutes to walk to my hotel and get my passport.

After about an hour of back and forth they decided to let me go, probably after I said I'd have to call the embasy to get someone there to retrieve my passport.

Either very dumb or looking for a bribe in the oddest way. My impression was the former.

vicshere says on Nov 26, 2007, 09:05:

ok stop it GIB you have me in tears

listo

Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 26, 2007, 11:31:

Learn the name of some high officials in the Colombian national police. When the cops stop you and ask what you're doing in their country, say, "I'm here for a meeting with your General so-and-so." Watch them jump.

This might not work so well in rural Colombia.

john_stark says on Nov 26, 2007, 22:15:

There are names you can drop in rural Colombia. Trouble is you might get to meet them. If you're not tight with Uncle Sal you may have some explaining to do.

To corroborate GIB, one of the things that absolutely amazed my in laws when they were here was the fact that people by and large respected the traffic laws. They'd see some guy getting a ticket on the interstate and be absolutely dumfounded when I explained what was happening. I really don't think they could handle life here because to be truthful, they like doing whatever the hell they want whenever the hell they want to do it.

Robert Jorge says on Nov 26, 2007, 23:49:

I find myself in agreement with JS yet again. My wife can't understand why I won't just go through the red light at 1am ... just happened. I sit there for 2 minutes waiting and she thinks it is funny. Even though I tell her: "if I go, I could be pulled over and ticketed", she just can't fathom that concept.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy