Just finished reading "Out of captivity"

mrgizmo says on Mar 27, 2009, 08:16:

I'm almost finish with the book myself. I agree with all the comments tannedincali makes.
It's very sad that there are still ignorant people who feel that the FARC are a regular army fighting for an ideal and fighting to make Colombia a better place to live.
I'd like to see all the people who brought flowers to and tried to touch the statue of Marulanda (Tiro Fijo) in Venezuela live a couple of years in the hostages' rubber boots under the same conditions and without the freedom that these hostages so desired to have and then see if they would still like to go and place flowers by Tiro Fijo's statue.

Behind every successful man, there's a nagging woman

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esanch36 says on Mar 27, 2009, 08:20:

Has Betancourt responded to the claims that these guys made about her?

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mrgizmo says on Mar 27, 2009, 08:33:

"Has Betancourt responded to the claims that these guys made about her?''

Not that I know of, but my understanding is that she's also writing a book. I'm waiting for that book to come out. I'm sure she'll try to justify her actions, we'll just have to wait and see.

Behind every successful man, there's a nagging woman

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tannedincali (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 27, 2009, 08:43:

ferran says on Mar 27, 2009, 09:05:

The truth has many sides and whats right today is wrong tomorrow, there is two sides to the coin, remember this guys are mercenaries, they do it for the money, no alliance to any flag, they will say and do whatever is most profitable, this book is for sale and the money it makes goes into the pockets of the mercenary, its all about the money. have fun reading it, but dont take it as the ultimate thruth, think about it.

All truth goes through three phases. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self evident.

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tannedincali (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 27, 2009, 09:13:

mrgizmo says on Mar 27, 2009, 09:19:

No, I don't remember THESE guys being mercenaries, where did you get that from?
Did you read the book? We get three different points of view in the book. As far as making money I hope they do make lots of it, they deserve it. They don't have to make up stories, their true experience during those 6 years would sell the book by itself.

Behind every successful man, there's a nagging woman

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beisbollover says on Mar 27, 2009, 09:25:

I also read the book and posted comments on PBH recently. Just to reiterate, it is clear that the FARC only exist to make money off of the drug trade and would be entirely wiped out by the Colombian Army if not for hostages. So that means that they will never free all the hostages as this would mean their own deaths.

At the same time I cannot help but think that there is an ugly truth about Colombia that the FARC uses to perpetuate their means to an end which is the absolute failure of the central government to provide basic services and prosperity to certain regions within the boarders of Colombia.

I, of course, realize that this truth is not the real reason the FARC exists.

At some point the central government of Colombia must address this truth and somehow provide the people with the ability to prosper from their own labors.

"The reason you don't understand me Edith is because I am speaking English but you are listening Dingbat!" -Archie Bunker

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beisbollover says on Mar 27, 2009, 09:31:

Ferran,

It is always good advice to take all information with a grain of salt, and there are three sides to every story, yours, mine, and the truth.

However, these guys were not mercenaries. They were working for an American company that had a contract from the US government to work in Colombia towards the efforts of the war on drugs. They absolutely pledge their allegiance to the US flag.

"The reason you don't understand me Edith is because I am speaking English but you are listening Dingbat!" -Archie Bunker

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Catfish35 says on Mar 27, 2009, 10:22:

I finished the book a week after it came out. We discussed this already. However, I was touched by the book.
FERRAN is 100% correct that these guys fit the total definition of a Mercenary. Sorry guys! Look up the definition and they meet both criteria. The one thing that is not correct he says is that they had no Flag. They were all three Americans and steadfast (according to them) the whole time patriots. I do not like these guys. I have already expressed that view many times. for many reasons.
HOWEVER,
The book is great and does give great insight into a "VIEW" of the FARC. I was waiting for a "Colombiano" to post to get a sense of what they thought of the book from being Colombian also. Just curious.
I have read intensely on the subject of captivity. For example as mentioned before. Great readings from John Mccain and his fellows that where captive in The Hanoi Hilton.
Captivity and Torture does many many things to people and all differently, but yet the same. Its is funny. It is like a grieving process. All must go thru certain steps but all go thru differently. Yes, all these folks had a terrible traumatic experience.
Some were actually innocent captives taken by ruse such as Ingrid.
The three Americans were NOT! They were and are all ex military, working in a foreign country, motivated strictly for MONEY and performing military excercises!!! Mercenaries....!! They made big bucks for what they did, they have been awarded their back pay, and they have speach deals, book royalties and the biggest thing of all Free Fokkin Harley Davidsons !!! ja lol

Feel sorry for the others that have been held there in Colombia or our very own active Soldiers on Food Stamps that do the same shit and get nothing for it! Butt a kick in the Butt....War sucks...

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

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Catfish35 says on Mar 27, 2009, 10:23:

BTW, again, the "Flag" thing is NOT a requirement of being a Mercenary...

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

1 funny, 0 helpful.

beisbollover says on Mar 27, 2009, 10:42:

Catfish,

They are not Mercenaries as the USA is in fact in an armed conflict with the FARC and anyone else who is involved in the drug trade. A Swede, Venezuelan, South African etc...working for the USA in Colombia would be a mercenary.

I understand that you feel differently about them being captive than innocent others who are not against the FARC or drug trade. So do I. They put themselves at risk and they also take full responsibility for having done so. I am in favor of the USA not negotiating with terrorists. The fact that they were rescued, which put others at risk, and are now making money from the ordeal, which is in their right, but which makes them suspect to criticism and subject to doubts, is the beauty of a free society. The kind of society that can choose to buy or not buy the book, believe or not believe them, and criticize and doubt or not. Exactly what the FARC and all other communist left wing political parties don't afford their own citizens.

"The reason you don't understand me Edith is because I am speaking English but you are listening Dingbat!" -Archie Bunker

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mrgizmo says on Mar 27, 2009, 10:56:

I disagree with your definition that these guys were mercenaries. A mercenary is a professional soldier concerned with material reward at the expense of ethics.
Whether you like it or not, these guys were helping Colombia get rid of the cocaine trade. They were doing surveillance work over coca labs and fields. If you don't like these guys that's fine that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but these guys were not doing a job against any one's ethics, except the FARC ethics.

Behind every successful man, there's a nagging woman

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Bill Turley (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 27, 2009, 11:41:

mrgizmo says on Mar 27, 2009, 11:58:

I got it at Barnes and Noble in California, you can also get it on the internet including the online version (which means you can read it on line).

Behind every successful man, there's a nagging woman

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tannedincali (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 27, 2009, 12:54:

tasco66 says on Mar 27, 2009, 12:58:

Catfish35, are Americans soldiers fighting Al Qaeda in Afghanistan mercenaries too?

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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tannedincali (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 27, 2009, 13:00:

poco says on Mar 27, 2009, 13:14:

Ferran Quote: The truth has many sides and whats right today is wrong tomorrow, there is two sides to the coin, remember this guys are mercenaries, they do it for the money, no alliance to any flag, they will say and do whatever is most profitable, this book is for sale and the money it makes goes into the pockets of the mercenary, its all about the money. have fun reading it, but dont take it as the ultimate thruth, think about it.
==================================
Brain Wash Alert,,, drip and dry.



Save this post,, use it when Ingrid comes out with her version. Ingrids actions were even worse than anticipated and I've always thought whe was a Narcissist Sychophant. Worse,, worse, much worse.

Or a the term I prefer,,

A Suckaphant.

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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Lauren says on Mar 27, 2009, 14:01:

From wikipedia (private military contractors)

"The 1949 Third Geneva Convention (GCIII) does not recognize the difference between defense contractors and private military contractors; it defines a category called supply contractors. If the supply contractor has been issued with a valid identity card from the armed forces which they accompany, they are entitled to be treated as prisoners of war upon capture (GCIII Article 4.1.4). If, however, the contractor engages in combat, he/she can be classified as a mercenary by the captors under the 1977 Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions (Protocol I) Article 47.c, unless falling under an exemption to this clause in Article 47. If captured contractors are found to be mercenaries, they are unlawful combatants and lose the right to prisoner of war status. Protocol I was not ratified by the United States."

So, if these "civilian" contractors working in Colombia for the CIA ever engaged in combat, I think it's fair to consider them as mercenaries,

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poco says on Mar 27, 2009, 14:04:

Quote: So, if these "civilian" contractors working in Colombia for the CIA ever engaged in combat, I think is is fair to consider them as mercenaries,
===================
They were engaged in locating Drug labs using FLIR equipment.

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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tasco66 says on Mar 27, 2009, 14:18:

They are heroes in both Colombia and the US...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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poco says on Mar 27, 2009, 14:49:

Lauren Quote: however, the contractor engages in combat, he/she can be classified as a mercenary by the captors under the 1977 Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions
==================================

Chavez has stated that the F.A.R.C. and E.L.N. are Soldiers.



Lauren,, do you agree the FARC / ELN are soldiers ? A yes or No will suffice.

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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Catfish35 says on Mar 27, 2009, 15:54:

They are not Soldiers. They were contractors..that is all correct. They were there strictly for the money..they said atleast 50 times about how the money motivated them.

Look up the definition of a Mercenary:
They fit it to the tee...

And no, the soldeirs in Iraq or Afgan are NOT Mercenaries...do not know how you twisted that one out.
I can see that you have heartfelt feelings for these guys..but they were there for the money NOT friggin Colombia...

Why is this so hard to understand..??
The one ..was a womanizer. So he was also enjoying the fruits of the poisonous Colombian tree while there also.

"HONESTY"??????in the book? It was written by them you would expect to get what they want you to hear.

As I said. It was a good book. I do not believe it all as they say. But they are MERCENARIES Look it up!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

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pobrecito says on Mar 27, 2009, 16:10:

They are CIA .

No mas Tasco66 !

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Lauren says on Mar 27, 2009, 16:28:

They were in Colombia as employees for Northrop Grummam, which in turn was subcontracting for the CIA. So what's the difference? Besides, they cannot be considered members of the US armed forces, as (as far as I know) they have neither a military ID nor a clear line of command. So, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I would call it... a duck.

Regarding FARC/ELN fighters, they are members of irregular armies, so, no, I don't consider them soldiers.

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tannedincali (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 27, 2009, 18:29:

Catfish35 says on Mar 27, 2009, 20:04:

Mongo..."Anyone with half a brain" as you say that "Feels" honesty in a book like this is just what you say..thanks.

Canned In Cali..I just cannot even answer you because you make no sense. The reason is because you cannot wrap your head around the fact that these guys are Ex Military, Being paid NOT by their own country/government. That is a SOLDIER..These guys were being paid by a private company to go to another country and perform covert military missions. There main motive was M O N E Y !!! They are Mercenaries!! Get the picture out of your head that they need to be covered in Camo seething across the ground with fake id's and all that shit. Remember these guys were fully armed when they crashed!

Mongo...
In response to your question for me..Some of my questions as to whether they were being totally honest or not.
1. Why in fact were they armed with pistols and mini 14's when or IF they were friendly folk "just flying over coca fields taking FLIR pics?
2. They had with them and they had to hide and destroy documents when they crashed. What documents?
3. The Colombian National that was aboard the plane with them was required. I understand that. Being MERCENARIES and BEING ARMED, Colombia felt that they needed somebody in an official capacity to represent their own government. Directly because of the MILITARY nature of these covert operations. Why did the Farc kill him? They had a bunch of other Police and Militaries already alive in other camps right?
4. The Pilot, that "saved the day" why was he killed? Where is he? where was he recovered?
5. I would have liked to know more about their personal problems. Obviously, Gonsalves was the submissive however you have to agree that they just lightly touched that they had at times deep rooted character flaws with each other. And rightfully so, being in that situation and all it is natural. However, with a book this long and detailed about other things it would have been educational to know more on this. Like as in the POW's plight!

I could go on but I already have. I think folks are naive to believe that this book has all the actual facts and is the gospel. I will wait to hear.....What the OTHER SIDE OF THE BRAIN has to say...I am sure it is coming.

The joke about the Harley Daividson was just that. Most would understand that! But still these guys are NOT friggin heroes!
I mention about the one screwing around because of that. Obviously he is a whore monger!! yes like Clinton!! He has the attitude he displayed in the book and still to this day he shows to be pompous and cocky!
They knew the dangers of being Mercenaries, they were paid nicely before, they have been paid back pay, along with the speaches, book deal etc..

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

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beisbollover says on Mar 27, 2009, 20:38:

They are not hero's because they sacrificed anything. That is obvious. They were not soldiers but highly paid professionals.

They are hero's for surviving captivity under the harshest of conditions.

Here is a question I have:

The plane crashed, and everyone survived, and they just happen to crash next to a FARC group?

Too much coincidence for me. I don't believe they crashed at all. Something else was going on.

"The reason you don't understand me Edith is because I am speaking English but you are listening Dingbat!" -Archie Bunker

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Catfish35 says on Mar 27, 2009, 21:53:

BeisBollover..ya know what? I'll buy that Hero description..thanks..your right!

The other thing about them and the FARC. They claim that they were there for strictly foto ops. Yet they knew every FARC memebr (almost) they came in contact with. From training about FARC I presume.

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

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Catfish35 says on Mar 27, 2009, 21:55:

Mongo..touche to you bro...
I liked the book mucho. I respect your view about them being heroes.

As I have said before." I amy not agree with what you say, BUT, will defend to the death your right to say it"

Peace

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

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ferran says on Mar 27, 2009, 22:31:

No i have not read the book, but circumstancial evidence tells me pretty much what happened here, being deprive of your liberty is no joy ride but in reality no one is inocent. like catfish says; these guys are ex militants of the USA army, they abide by military codes and yes their reports most likely ended in some desk at the CIA center. Have these guys ever written a book before? I assumed theres is a ghost writer somewhere, it has been edited and theres certain truths that are omitted from the book, dont you think that secret inteligence benefits from what this guys have to say? Think about it.

PS Ingrid is no inocent bystander, lets see what kind of bull she will come up with.

All truth goes through three phases. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self evident.

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billyb says on Mar 27, 2009, 22:41:

Care to bet who will be the first two people in line to buy when ingrid's book (or should we say fairy tale?) comes out?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Catfish35 says on Mar 27, 2009, 22:42:

I cannot be so stricken with paranoia to say for sure that these guys were CIA. I know what the definition of a Mercenary is and I know that were privateers, ex military doing military ops. FOR THE MONEY.
However, be that it may. They were indeed held against their will. Which actually is not so bad to the fact that I do believe torture was involved.
Again, as I said right after finishing this book. We have soldiers doing some of the same shit or even much more dangerous and they can't get decent $$$, health care, or shit. These boys did not go thru an inkling of what the Nam POW's under went.
No Harleys for our boys AND girls coming home are their?

There was an independant writer for these guys on this book as Ferran says. And who really knows what they were or may have been forced not to tell. Who knows what they chose and agreed together not to tell that may have been humiliating...no se.

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

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ferran says on Mar 27, 2009, 23:04:

This is another Wag the Dog episode. Billyb, I'm dying to know who those two could be.

All truth goes through three phases. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self evident.

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billyb says on Mar 27, 2009, 23:08:

jaja, they are female.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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ferran says on Mar 27, 2009, 23:17:

Come on man!! I'm on the edge of my seat, give us some more hints, Hillary Clinton? Shakira? Ingrids momi dearest? That great senator "la negra del turbante"? Mother Teresa? come on man!!

All truth goes through three phases. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self evident.

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tannedincali (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 27, 2009, 23:29:

NataliaV says on Mar 28, 2009, 09:08:

I enjoyed the book and it was hard to put down. However, I agree that there are two sides to ever story. From reading Keith's point of view versus Tom and Marc's, to me, Keith came across as quite cocky. I agree that Ingrid did some messed up stuff, however, I feel she was being smart by clinging to different men depending on which camp she was in. I think if I was in her shoes I would have done the same thing. She needed a male protector, someone to stand up for her when the other male prisoners would try and assault her (as Marc did say was a problem for her). That was a smart strategy, and even though it may have come across as she was a whore or bitch, I think she did what she needed to do to survive. Regardless though, when other books come out we will get the other side.

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tasco66 says on Mar 28, 2009, 09:38:

I have a gun in my finca and I did military service. I guess that qualifies me as a mercenary for some here...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Catfish35 says on Mar 28, 2009, 11:59:

TASCO
If you and your little gun are doing military ops in Colonbia, motivated by money, and you are foreign? Yes you can be a Mercenary.
But if not, you just have a finca with a gun, Like I got.

NataliaV,
You are totally correct.
BTW, I would like to have dibs on being the male figure in your life in any camp we may find ourselves in. I hope we don't but just wanted throw that out there. That way if it ever happened you would not need to bother with that choosing and ugly bickering!

Peace

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

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NataliaV says on Mar 28, 2009, 12:56:

Lol, thanks Catfish. I appreciate that....It would save a whole lot of frustration on my part. ;-)

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Catfish35 says on Mar 28, 2009, 18:44:

anytime

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

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quantum says on Mar 29, 2009, 19:14:

And I bet the Catfish is well equipped to handle the job too.....hahaha........

quantum

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Catfish35 says on Mar 29, 2009, 22:41:

I am what I am..

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

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webmanco says on Mar 30, 2009, 04:06:

Don´t let Catfish35 avatar fool you !

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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bickerss says on Apr 8, 2009, 02:25:

really enjoyed this book. It will be interesting to read Ingrids version.

Investment Strategy - buying when others are crying!! Offloading when others are gloating!!!

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bickerss says on Apr 8, 2009, 14:00:

just saw it today for sale in Panamericano, in English - 100,000 pesos; holy crap thats expensive!!

Investment Strategy - buying when others are crying!! Offloading when others are gloating!!!

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tannedincali (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 8, 2009, 14:16:

bickerss says on Apr 8, 2009, 14:19:

the spanish version was 50,000. bought mine on the kinde for 10 usd - good deal.

Investment Strategy - buying when others are crying!! Offloading when others are gloating!!!

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tannedincali (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 8, 2009, 14:45:

bickerss says on Apr 8, 2009, 14:49:

absolutely - fantastic piece of kit, especially for someone travelling a lot. Very easy to use, and great to 'read' from. Books are cheap (bought out of captivity for 10 usd and another, house to house for 7.99), so I will recoup my money pretty quick. Magazines are also cheaper and while it is nowhere near as nice to read on the kindleI save a bunch on those ie I paid 99 cents for Time and costs em 14,000 normaly in medellin.

Investment Strategy - buying when others are crying!! Offloading when others are gloating!!!

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