Is this common?

ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 5, 2008, 11:07:

As with any culture there are messy people. My mom and my wife are both Colombian and both keep impeccable homes. However, I do know some Colombians whose homes are filthy and messy. Was she raised with a maid at home as many Colombians were? Maybe she just never learned to do housework.

On the other hand, my ex-wife is American and her house and car are always a mess. I got very sick of that when we were married.

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coloradodad says on Sep 5, 2008, 11:21:

As you know, in Colombia, even families without much money can afford a maid. I think in my wife's case, there was always someone around to do the housework: a maid, her granny, her mom. What surprises me is that no one ever insisted that she learn to be disciplined. I could work with that if it were not such an emotional topic for her.

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coloradodad says on Sep 5, 2008, 11:28:

morphus - I don't drink, and coming from a home with two raging drunks, I'm not interested in starting.

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coloradodad says on Sep 5, 2008, 11:31:

Can anyone (preferably a woman) comment on this constant need for attention?

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 5, 2008, 11:32:

I don't know what to tell you CD. Maybe you could work out a trade of some sort. Tell her that if she wants you to do her HoneyDo list, she needs to do some housework. Sometimes you need to put your foot down.

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Mononoke28 says on Sep 5, 2008, 11:39:

I think you are stereotyping Colombian women or latinas for that matter. Based on what little info you have written I'm assuming your wife was always taken care of and expects you to do the same now that you're married. She most likely had someone to do everything for her, clean the house, clean the car, pick up after her, cook for her, wash her dishes, do her laundry, etc. She also probably had her dad or other men in the house do other things for her, run errands for her, make important calls for her and now she thinks she can't do them or feels it is your job, as the man of the house to do them, not her. So because she had a "spoiled" upbringing and now has to fend for herself, she thinks you're not there for her and only criticize her behavior, which up until before she married you was acceptable in her home.

That's what I think anyway. She either has to change this way of thinking or you have to accept her the way she is.

I have a few cousins who were raised like that, who will not cook or clean because they don't have to. I always think that they would be miserable if they ever had to come live to the US because here, you HAVE learn to do everything yourself and become a real person instead of having other people do things for you.

Diana

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coloradodad says on Sep 5, 2008, 11:42:

CG - that might work if she had a list. I think it is more that she thinks my sole purpose when I come home is to help her with whatever comes into her mind at the moment. It's the same with conversation. Stop whatever you are doing and and listen to me. Are Colombian women starved for attention or not confident on their own?

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Mononoke28 says on Sep 5, 2008, 11:43:

Oh before I forget, one thing that threw me off a bit was your comment "she respects my authority". Maybe I read it wrong but it sounded to me like you're the boss of the house and I personally don't agree with it. But, to each his own.

Good luck!

Diana

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 5, 2008, 11:44:

You can't generalize. Some Colombian women are lovey dovey and require a lot of attention and some aren't. You would probably know your wife better than anyone. How long have you been married?

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Mononoke28 says on Sep 5, 2008, 11:48:

I know I'm not lovey dovey, never have been. This morning I went to pick up my husband and it was cold, I said "Uy que frío, estoy helada" and he said "Más?!" PLOP!

But yeah, you can't generalize that it's just Colombian women. I know most of my girlfriends are always trying to get attention from their husbands or boyfriends, it makes me sick. And yeah, they're American, born and raised.

Diana

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Sep 5, 2008, 11:51:

Coloradodad - Is she at home by herself (and maybe the kids) all day? Does she get out? Does she have a social network other than you? Her clinginess makes me think that she's dying for interaction with other people. In this case, you're the convenient one when you arrive home.

I only say this because I've seen this behavior with women who are home all day. Thus she wants to do things with you.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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johnny2008 says on Sep 5, 2008, 11:54:

I think the "to do" list isn't necessarily a Colombian thing. Women the world over believe they are being helpful by conscientiously organising their man's time for him.

I do this (but it may be too late in your case) Engineer a conversation around to what makes American men divorce their women. You might not have to engineer this, it'll probably crop up anyway. Then explain to her that most American men don't get divorced because they don't find their women attractive (see how you come across as deep here) but they get divorced because their wives nag too much. This will sink in without her having any idea of what your motives are. Women are woefully poor at self analysis and she won't have put herself in the nagging category.

Then next time she starts the to do list again, merely say "GRUÑONA!"

Works a treat.

Her messiness is your trump card as you can accuse her of double standards and duplicity, You can then offset the pain you cause by blaming her religion.

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coloradodad says on Sep 5, 2008, 12:18:

Diana, thanks for your comments. You are close to the mark. My intention was not to generalize, but to inquire so I could separate in my mind what might be cultural and what might be personal. Yes she is home alone most of the time, and yes, you are right, there was always someone one around to help her with whatever (I laughed when you mentioned phone calls). I imagine the relative isolation and independence of US culture is tough on her. We have been married for 6.5 years, and I have not seen much change in learning to have confidence in herself and begin to accomplish her goals. BTW, I try not to criticize, but say, "Amor, can we work on this together?" Apparently that is not subtle enough.

houstongal - I try to encourage her to get out of the house, but this is a challenge. Interesting enough, she is very cautious about getting close to other colombian women - that was a surprise. She has found a group of international women that she meets with and have been very supportive.

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goin_south says on Sep 5, 2008, 12:21:

Que es: GRUÑONA!" ?

Why Not Colombia?..........Stay Tuned, for more.... utterly worthless, self-indulgent gobbets of nonsense.

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Sep 5, 2008, 12:23:

Coloradodad - Does she do anything to give her a self of self-worth? Any volunteer activities? A hobby? Could she work part-time? I'm glad she found a group of women to meet with her. Self-worth is very important to build up her confidence for both men and women. Good luck to you!

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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esanch36 says on Sep 5, 2008, 12:28:

man....you have to put your foot down.....She is prob starved for some direction.....she either needs to start cleaning the house or get a damn job. These colombian women are used to manchismo men from colombia..you need to stop being a pussy gringo and lay down the law. Youuuuuuuu are supporting her!!! Its your rules..Time to cowboy the $%^% up!!!!

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esanch36 says on Sep 5, 2008, 12:29:

Houston girl i see where your going with this and your right

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coloradodad says on Sep 5, 2008, 12:30:

She does work part time, but she is thinking of quitting because she feels overwhelmed with two small kids and the house work. I don't think that would be a good idea, and have encouraged her to hang in there and keep working. I do help out a lot, but it's never enough.

BTW, our nephew is hoping to come to the US to study in his final year of Secondary School. This may make things worse because, honestly, he would starve to death if his mother did not put hot food in front of him. I'm not sure what to do, because it could either be a great growing experience for him or a total disaster.

All this is new to me because I've been largely on my own from the age of 16.

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esanch36 says on Sep 5, 2008, 12:33:

dude my mom worked a full time job a a scientist in a pharmacuitcal and raised 3 boys...it can be done

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esanch36 says on Sep 5, 2008, 12:34:

you need to go to a consular and not seek advice from the PBH marriage counslers. Your marriage seems to be a point of no return.

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Sep 5, 2008, 12:41:

Coloradodad - If the part-time job isn't fulfilling to her, then it certainly doesn't nothing for her self-worth or identify. It's just a job. My guess is that if she is considering quitting, she sees it as a job.

Do you guys have a list of actvities that you're responsible for and she is responsible for doing? Perhaps creating such a 50-50 list will help. Work together to create the list and definitely include the child-rearing activities! You'll probably find this list helpful when the nephew arrives - he will need to pitch in and you and your wife can determine which "chores" he is responsible for doing.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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badboy says on Sep 5, 2008, 12:42:

yea "She respects my authority" haha this one is easy. she's passive-aggressive. has nothing to do with colombianas. this is her way of getting some control over things. accept it. you won't change her personality.

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esanch36 says on Sep 5, 2008, 12:47:

as for this boy coming....you need to stress to his parents that you are not here to wipe his ass and that here in gringolandia we do not have maids and mothersthat let their male children get away with murder. Boys in colombia usually dont have to lift a finger around the house.

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Sep 5, 2008, 12:53:

I agree esanch!

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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badboy says on Sep 5, 2008, 12:54:

moral of story: live with a future wife or hubby prior to getting married to see if quirks and habits are tolerable.

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coloradodad says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:00:

OK, I'm getting grief on the "authority" issue. In many areas of life, including the home, someone has to make the final decision. My wife expects me to be strong enough to do that when it's necessary. I've been in leadership at work and in the community for a long time, and I hope I know how to do that in a way that serves the people I am interacting with. My wife does have a lot of wisdom and intuition about people, situations, raising kids, etc.and I value her advise. It's really not an are of conflict for us.

Otherwise, thanks to all for the helpful comments.

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rocinante says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:00:

Yes it's common - it's marriage.

Gurñon/Gruñona = grumpy

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:00:

So true badboy!

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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coloradodad says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:02:

Yes, boy will have a list of things to do to help out around the house. We've made this clear to his family, but we will see what happens!

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esanch36 says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:03:

your home life and work life are 2 separate things......Ive seen strong men in the business world who coware before their witch of a wife. Not saying your wife is a witch. Forgot what we say....YOU NEED MARRIAGE COUNSLING

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dwmte7 says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:04:

well, my lovely wife is one of colombia's classic clean freaks. she'll work into the night doinstuff i wouldn't do if it was the last thing to do in the world. i was serving morning coffee to a neighbor one a.m. and i told him to be careful, as if we spill a drop, she'll be here in 10 sec. she can 'smell' mess. he laughed. as i was pouring the coffee, i spilled a drop or two and said, 'oh shit, here she comes' and like clock work, in the kitchen she comes, gives me a look and the same to my neighbor, wipes up the spill and goes back to what she was doing......

and no matter what i'm doin, working on the computer, watching tv, out in the yard, eating, you name it. she wants my attention and wants me to talk. that's fine...i try to accomodate her, but sometimes i'm just the quiet type. but mom? huh! she's a talk a haulic. she'll get on the phone with friends or family and it's non stop jabber.....

remember, colorado, a fox might change his hole, but he never changes habits. if you love her and she loves you, fuck it. my wife never wanted to learn english...20 years now...and it used to be a fricken war at home. but finally, since i learned spanish and the kids speak spanish i just--again--said fuck it, i don'[t want no war under my roof. we always speak spanish.

how much is a little messiness worth, a marriage, a war, a divorce? nah....take her by the hand and say, honey, lets straighten up around here. be done with it.

dwmte

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coloradodad says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:10:

Good advice dwmte. We love each other, and It's not worth a war. I'm hoping that we eventually find a happy medium where she can be more responsible and I let go of some my expectations for neatness. This whole dialog is more for venting and a sanity check for me. Thanks.

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juli says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:12:

Como dice la gente: vaca ladrona no olvida el portillo. Creo que es tarde porque uds son quienes son, ya.

Tendran que llegar a un acuerdo mutuo.

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coloradodad says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:13:

gracias juli

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dwmte7 says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:14:

brother....i could tell you about some battlefield bullshit that went down in the early years. but just the reverse of you, i got used to an impeccable house and talkin in spanglish and let go of the war. i'm kinda the 'everything in easy reach' guy. not dirty, but, easy. but mom, hah. it's spit and polish or.......... so, you got one side of the coin, i got the other. it's the same coin. aint that a bitch. i'd go for a little of what you got.

dwmte

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:19:

That's funny douglas. I was thinking the same thing. Some people would be frustrated being married to a clean freak.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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coloradodad says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:25:

dwmte, Hah, I know what you mean, my nazi mom ran the house like fracking military camp. So, this is not nearly so bad. I just wish I didn't trip over something every time I get up a night for the baby. I'm like you. I need just enough organization for things to be easy.

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jonas says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:30:

get a Colombian nanny, might work out perfectly for both of you ;-)

Mi alma se la dejo al diablo

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dwmte7 says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:48:

ya know, HG....i don't know who get's the most frustrated, mom putin up with me or me, her.

my desk is like piles of bunches...yet, i know exactly where everything is. when she sees it, she...like an addict who can't resist...feels compelled to organize and put things away. then, i have no clue where anything is...it's organized, and looks great, but i'm lost.

dwmte

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:53:

douglas - think of it as having a common frustration!

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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Mononoke28 says on Sep 5, 2008, 13:56:

I agree with dwmte, you either have to put your foot down so she can see that she needs to change or you have to accept her behavior. Counseling would definitely help because for some reason people tend to listen and understand more what a third person has to say than the person you are actually having a relationship with. So if a therapist tells her the same things you've been telling her all along she might get it only because an outside person said it.

I personally don't think she'll change. Mainly because of what I've seen and these women are so used to having everything done they actually think they can't do something thembselves or come up with all kinds of excuses to stay home and live like a rich socialite. I just can't understand it because I've had to fend for myself for most of my adult life.

Diana

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 5, 2008, 14:05:

My American ex-wife was a lot like that. She was a spoiled little rich girl growing up and was very good at the victim mentality. She worked maybe 20% of the whole time we were married. When she was finishing school and once we had kids, she didn't have to work. When we had the kids, she went into full time martyr mode. She complained about how overwhelmed she was and of course, everything was my fault.

I did everything I could to help out around the house. I didn't go out with my friends or even watch sports on the weekends. She got nice cars, a nice home and great vacations and still managed to make us both miserable. We even had a cleaning lady come by once a week. We signed the kids up for "Mother's day out" daycare so she could go to the spa or out with her friends a few times a week and she still wasn't happy.

The funny thing is that now she is a single mom working her ass off while raising the two kids and she finally appreciates what she used to have. Ha Ha. Too late. I couldn't be happier to be away from her. Sadly, as is commonly the case, the kids got the rawest end of the deal. I do my best to spend time with them and I talk to them every day, but it still isn't easy on them even after many years.

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coloradodad says on Sep 5, 2008, 14:25:

The best solution might be to move back to Colombia. She would have all the help she wants. I would live like a king. And we would be broke. :)

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Pirate2late says on Sep 5, 2008, 16:26:

CD, pick out the good advice and go from there. Don't know how long you've been married, but I'll share with you the same advice I gave my daughter before she got married. It's worked great for me, but I had to learn the hard way and from my own mistakes!

1. Never get in a relationship (serious) or marry someone who has habits/traits that are not acceptable. Do not expect them to change, and they shouldn't expect you to change. You are the way you are and they are the way they are. Period!

2. Ask yourself if you can live with their "quirks"? If you can great. If you can't, see #1.

3. Be flexible, be able to adapt, be able to compromise. Things change during a marriage (living arrangements/kids/work/where you live/income/changing jobs/losing jobs......and on and on).

Really these things you've listed are really kinda minor and I hope you don't let it end what otherwise sounds like a good relationship. Do you love her? If you do, then accepting things like being messy is up to you. It's a mind set. You should be happy she wants your attention. If you don't give it to her, she will find someone who will. I know from personal experience. So give it to her! You said she is loving and loyal. Both are not always there in a marriage! :)

Anyway, good luck! And the best advice is what a couple of other PBH'rs have said, get professional help. It will be worth it, believe me. I did, but only after it was too late and because I was tired of making the same ole mistakes!

Oh....and another funny thing in life. If you dump your wife, the things that attracted you to your wife are going to be the same things that will attract you to you next one....and guess what! With probably the very same things you didn't like about the first one! So adjust, be flexible, compromise......otherwise, you'll just be having the same problems, only with different wives!!

I Learned the hard way...........

el Pirate

"Fly it until the last part stops moving!"

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Portena says on Sep 5, 2008, 19:12:

Oh....and another funny thing in life. If you dump your wife, the things that attracted you to your wife are going to be the same things that will attract you to you next one....and guess what! With probably the very same things you didn't like about the first one! So adjust, be flexible, compromise......otherwise, you'll just be having the same problems, only with different wives!!

Great words of wisdom, Pirate2late. So true.

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johnny2008 says on Sep 6, 2008, 03:54:

Quick question Colordadodad. Apologies for appearing overly pragmatic, and interesting though this thread is. But have you thought of speaking to your wife rather than a bunch of anonymous internet voyeurs on a forum?

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dwmte7 says on Sep 6, 2008, 06:26:

good point john....however, when cross cultural relations are involved, some input from others who've crossed the same bridge is often helpful.

dwmte

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Loggi says on Sep 6, 2008, 08:35:

Man , I am glad I brought my own wife along

“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness.” - Mark Twain

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utopiacowboy says on Sep 6, 2008, 08:56:

When ever she gets on your nerves, bend her over and give it to her hard. You'll forget about what ever was pissing you off and in time she may improve her behavior. You can add Morph's advice to this and get drunk before you do her.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Robert Jorge says on Sep 6, 2008, 09:31:

That's advice for the sister in law, isn't it UC?

He who farts in church, sits in his own pew.

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capt_j says on Sep 8, 2008, 17:16:

In my experience American women are high maintenance also. I have no real advice for you other than *maybe* you can negotiate some me time with her, or get all your relaxation outside of the house. Good luck.

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coloradodad says on Oct 16, 2008, 09:19:

Update: Finally, after seven years of marriage, we are making progress on this issue. My wife signed up for a course at church specifically for disorganized women (funny but true). The lady conducting the course is quite good, having worked with both individuals and Fortune 500 companies. Apparently we are not alone in that the differences between neat and messy people can cause serious marriage problems. Fortunately my wife has realized a few things that have really helped her overall attitude.

1. Organization is a skill that has to been learned, and she never learned it because her mom was always working.
2. Most of the advice I have been trying to give her over the past seven years was correct.
3. She has a good husband (yeah teacher!!!). There are a lot of jerks out there who are harsh with their wives if the house is not in order.
4. She can do this. Seeing her grow in confidence is even more important to me than the practical stuff.

Since then the instructor has come to our house and helped my wife get organized. In general, the tone of our relationship is much calmer and happier now that she is not always stressed out about house work. The money we are spending on the house calls is less than marriage counseling and far more effective. I mean, we could have spend a lot of money talking about conflict resolution without solving the root problem.

We both have a lot of work to do, but thank God we are making progress.

Thanks to those of you who gave helpful advice. I really just needed a place to vent.

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