Is Medellin safer than your city? It may well be the case...

juancegomez says on Oct 9, 2007, 18:47:

I directly question the simplistic statement that "through Plan Colombia there has been a steep decline in violence", all things considered.

You can look at the fine print of what the Plan's resources actually amount to and see that some of the areas most affected by and designed to be the focus of this Plan, in particular those in the south of the country such as Putumayo, are either not significantly safer or potentially less safe, arguably due to the Plan and its own inherent flaws.

In contrast, some of the areas, including Medellín, where violence has declined the most have been under local administrations which have made considerable efforts and invested far more resources of their own, as well as being affected by other factors mostly or totally unrelated to Plan Colombia. That was an anti-drug plan first and foremost, even in its most hawkish military aspects. Not a plan designed to make Colombians in the cities, far away from the coca fields and areas of significant guerrilla presence, safe.

That's not saying that the Plan has not had *any* influence at all in improving security. It actually has, through the aid it has provided to the security forces, helped make some improvements which therefore can still be attributed to it. But such a sweeping statement as the one quoted above shouldn't be automatically accepted as a fact.

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Medellin Traveler says on Oct 9, 2007, 19:28:

"In contrast, some of the areas, including Medellín, where violence has declined the most have been under local administrations which have made considerable efforts and invested far more resources of their own," - junacegomez

I've been trying to figure out where all the money to build Medellin into a world-class city has actually come from. I'm just curious to know. It has definitely been a very, expensive investment, to say the least.

There are a million gringos visiting Costa Rica every year and leave behind boat loads of money, but for whatever reasons, Costa Rica is a dump and Medellin is a fabulous city.

There are many great restuarants, discoteks, clubs, bars and shopping malls throughout the city, but for the most part they are all dead on many days and nights. How do these business's stay open?

On many trips to Parque Lleras, during the day, it's been dead with the exception of employees and artists displaying their wares in the park.

And what I hate, is walking into a store in, any of the malls in Medellin, and getting swamped by the sales staff. I'm very polite in telling them I'm just browsing but they follow me around trying to show me some of the merchandise they have for sale. I HATE this type of action in any country as well, not as prevelant in the states though.

Does anyone have any idea where all the funds came from?

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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robi666 says on Oct 9, 2007, 19:43:

"I've been trying to figure out where all the money to build Medellin into a world-class city has actually come from. "

Surely not from plan colombia... ;-) You know the answer...

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Simon says on Oct 9, 2007, 19:46:

"Surely not from plan colombia... ;-) You know the answer..."


Yes, from the booming market economy!

"Tu vas a ver, llegaras a mi edad y veras que Colombia seguira igual"-----Simon Sr.

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robi666 says on Oct 9, 2007, 19:48:

Well... yes... Simon.. ehm :-)

Anyway, money is NOT everything. Paisas are good at working, smart and proud persons.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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john_stark says on Oct 9, 2007, 20:47:

Geez, let's give credit where credit is due. Muchas gracias, Don Bernal and the AUC for taking control of the city's barrios and putting an end to the gang wars.

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Morrongo says on Oct 9, 2007, 20:50:

Big hike in house prices over the past two years..equals opportunities for foreign and private investors to sniff good profits...I only hope these profits can filter down to meaningful social programes...in theory why not?

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droble77 says on Oct 9, 2007, 23:53:

"I've been trying to figure out where all the money to build Medellin into a world-class city has actually come from. I'm just curious to know. It has definitely been a very, expensive investment, to say the least.

There are a million gringos visiting Costa Rica every year and leave behind boat loads of money, but for whatever reasons, Costa Rica is a dump and Medellin is a fabulous city.

There are many great restuarants, discoteks, clubs, bars and shopping malls throughout the city, but for the most part they are all dead on many days and nights. How do these business's stay open?

Does anyone have any idea where all the funds came from?"

Don't remember the exact comparison but I've read in a couple of places there's more construction going on in MDE than in a couple of major U.S. cities combined. CLEARLY, some of this is related to money laundering from the drug trade. To what extent is the question I don't think anyone can really answer.

So that should clear up some of your questions MDE Traveler. :-) And it's not like this is a new phenomena. You probably don't know this but back in the 80's during the heyday of the Cali cartel, the city of Cali was not the total dump that it is today. In those years, the mafiosos partied in newly built discos with live salsa orchestras for entertainment (something that was new to Cali as Caleños always loved salsa and "musica antillana" but they never really had much of a live music scene until those years) and everything top of the line, at least for the mafiosos, not the working class caleños.

It's ironic because today, there is no Medellin cartel (at least that we know of) but there is cartel-like activity in Cali. Are they hiding their money further away from the city to try to keep a low profile? Is there also dirty money coming in to MDE from illegal activities by the parracos and their supporters?

Quite frankly, I don't really want to know too much about this stuff. Yes, Colombia is a beautiful country, but with many many secrets from the highest level (Uribe) all the way down to the cute young innocent-looking salesgirl who does a little prepaga on the side. I don't think us gringos will be allowed to scratch much below the surface anyway, but that's fine by me. I have my suspicions about what's in the "black box," but I don't need all the gory details, that wouldn't be good for my health! ;)

As for all those workers in those stores, restaurants, and clubs with little to do, don't worry too much about that. Most of them don't get paid much above minimum salary. That is chump change for the rich elite Colombians and their dirty money, jajajaj! :0)

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billyb says on Oct 10, 2007, 06:05:

Don Berna. Don Bernal ran the corner market :)

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morphus says on Oct 10, 2007, 06:13:

"There are a million gringos visiting Costa Rica every year and leave behind boat loads of money, but for whatever reasons, Costa Rica is a dump and Medellin is a fabulous city"

Colombia has more resources than Costa Rica. Colombia can easily survive without tourism. Costa Rica would be very poor without tourism.

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love2colombia says on Oct 10, 2007, 06:38:

"And what I hate, is walking into a store in, any of the malls in Medellin, and getting swamped by the sales staff. I'm very polite in telling them I'm just browsing but they follow me around trying to show me some of the merchandise they have for sale. I HATE this type of action in any country as well, not as prevelant in the states though."

Medellin Traveler:

Yes, is true but this behavior is only in centro malls, never in poblado or middle class malls.
The people in the rich areas are very cold, sorry folks but this is true...

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juancegomez says on Oct 10, 2007, 08:09:

Medellín_Traveler: I was focusing on *violence* levels, not necessarily on what you've just typed, mind you (though, for the record, Medellín wasn't exactly a total shit hole before the drug trade either, it was already a pretty well developed city even then) ....but if you're implying that you're going to reduce everything to drug money alone (which isn't exactly that new a factor) and ignore anything the local administration or other circumstances can do, then the level of violence in Medellín could practically have stayed the same these last few years, instead of decreasing.

Why would it need to change? The drug trade was already part of the equation for more than a decade and, in fact, was what helped raise the violence levels to the sky in the first place. I think you should consider other factors as well. Drug cartels and gangs don't exactly *require* more security, they can function just fine without it. Heck, violence doesn't even stop the flow of drugs.

john_stark: Having said that, Don Berna's control of the barrios and the underworld is definitely *one* of the factors I was thinking of, which is also unrelated to Plan Colombia. But you can't really ignore other things either. For example, here's a link to an analysis which also mentions two others (including the current local administration):

-People I interviewed were less in agreement, though, about why Medellín has become so much safer. Many credited President Uribe’s tough security policies, which have brought a greater police and military presence in the vast, lawless slums that surround the city. Many said that Medellín is more peaceful because "the paramilitaries won" - the right-wing groups ejected guerrilla militias, dominate criminal activity in the city, and are presently on their best behavior as their demobilization and reintegration process proceeds. Many also gave credit to Medellín’s city government, which has heavily invested its own resources in projects in poor neighborhoods and in programs to reintegrate demobilized paramilitaries.

As far as I could tell, all three hypotheses are correct. "Democratic Security," the paramilitaries’ victory, and the mayor’s office’s programs combine into a series of factors - some encouraging, some very sinister - that explain Medellín’s "renaissance." Here is a closer look.

http://www.cipcol.org/?p=236

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morphus says on Oct 10, 2007, 08:11:

Wait until Uribe leaves office. All the gringos are going to be running to airport with their tails between their legs.

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coffee beaner says on Oct 10, 2007, 08:22:

Yesterday in the news I heard the U Party will try to put in for a 3rd reelection of the main man Uribe!

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juancegomez says on Oct 10, 2007, 08:52:

The "U" Party is discussing that in a so-called "ideological congress". Doesn't automatically mean that Uribe will accept, since he's said that he won't (granted, he could easily turn around, but let's wait and see).

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manINred says on Oct 10, 2007, 09:03:

To elect Uribe to a third term, the constitution would have to be changed. I personally don't agree with the power check of restricting presidential terms to 2 (Clinton then Bush!) and if it was changed I would support it, not that I can.

And to answer the initial question, if I consider Toronto, Montreal and London, the answer is no.

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Medellin Traveler says on Oct 10, 2007, 15:36:

"Yes, is true but this behavior is only in centro malls, never in poblado or middle class malls.
The people in the rich areas are very cold, sorry folks but this is true..." love2Colombia

Sorry to say, but I experienced this type of behavior at both Oviedo and Tesero Malls.

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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john_stark says on Oct 10, 2007, 17:04:

"Colombia has more resources than Costa Rica. Colombia can easily survive without tourism. Costa Rica would be very poor without tourism."

In a continuing effort to inject reality into PBH here goes:

Colombia has a purchasing power parity GDP of $374.4 billion - on a per capita basis this is $8436 per person.

Costa Rica has a purchasing power parity GDP of $50.89 billion - on a per capita basis this is $12310 per person.

So much for the claim that Colombia has greater economic resources than Costa Rica. On a per capita basis they certainly do not.

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morphus says on Oct 10, 2007, 17:09:

Take away the tourists and the money they bring from Costa Rica and you will get a different number. The economy will sink fast in Costa Rica. Colombia would be just fine without tourism.Ticos would starve without it.

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john_stark says on Oct 10, 2007, 17:18:

Yeah I suppose you could say this about a lot of countries which are heavily dependent on tourism. They're still a lot better off than Colombia.

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Colombiche says on Oct 10, 2007, 17:19:

Surely the $50.89 billion includes some of those tourism dollars.

I have not personally visited Costa Rica, but I have heard from people who have that San Jose does not compare to Bogota, not even Medellin, maybe Pereira?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Oct 10, 2007, 17:20:

John Stark, it depends on what your definition of better off is.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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morphus says on Oct 10, 2007, 17:29:

Costa Rica: Natural resources: Hydroelectric power, forest products, fisheries products.
Agriculture (8.6% of GDP): Products--bananas, pineapples, coffee, beef, sugar, rice, dairy products, vegetables, fruits and ornamental plants.
Industry (31% of GDP): Types--electronic components, food processing, textiles and apparel, construction materials, fertilizer, medical equipment.
Commerce, tourism, and services (60.4% of GDP): Hotels, restaurants, tourist services, banks, and insurance.

Tourism 60.4% in Costa Rica!


Colombia:Natural resources: Coal, petroleum, natural gas, iron ore, nickel, gold, silver, copper, platinum, emeralds.
Manufacturing (14.4% of GDP): Types--textiles and garments, chemicals, metal products, cement, cardboard containers, plastic resins and manufactures, beverages, wood products, pharmaceuticals, machinery, electrical equipment.
Agriculture (13.1% of GDP): Products--coffee, bananas, cut flowers, cotton, sugarcane, livestock, rice, corn, tobacco, potatoes, soybeans, sorghum. Cultivated land--8.2% of total area.
Other sectors (by percentage of GDP): Government, personal and other services--18.6%; financial services--17.1%; commerce--11.2%; transportation and communications services--7.9%; construction and public works--5.4; mining and quarrying--4.5%; electricity, gas, and water--2.9%.
Trade: Exports (2006)--$24.3 billion: petroleum, coal, coffee, flowers, textiles and garments, ferronickel, bananas, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, gold, sugar, cardboard containers, printed material, cement, plastic resins and manufactures, emeralds. Major markets--U.S., Venezuela, Germany, Netherlands, Japan. Imports (2006)--$24.5 billion: machinery/equipment, grains, chemicals, transportation equipment, mineral products, consumer products, metals/metal products, plastic/rubber, paper products, aircraft, oil and gas industry equipment, supplies. Major suppliers--U.S., Germany, Japan, Panama, Venezuela.

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billyb says on Oct 10, 2007, 18:31:

Hey Colombiche, what's up with the Pereira bashing? Just kidding :))

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Colombiche says on Oct 10, 2007, 18:41:

no bashing billy, acordate que yo soy sorda por un oido ;)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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john_stark says on Oct 10, 2007, 21:21:

Right, Morphus. And Costa Rica has a GDP that is 50% greater than Colombia's on a per capita basis. I still fail to see how Costa Rica is somehow worse off than Colombia just because it depends on tourism. So does Martha's Vineyard.

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morphus says on Oct 11, 2007, 05:21:

I never said they were worse off. Tourism in Costa Rica be there for a long time.

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billyb says on Oct 11, 2007, 05:49:

Cuando te dicen que te sientes, te........?

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Colombiche says on Oct 11, 2007, 06:31:

como? que que? hableme mas duro.... a esta hora no oigo.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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billyb says on Oct 11, 2007, 06:41:

jejeje.

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