Is Cali dangerous???

kernow62 says on Dec 8, 2004, 04:23:

Depends what you are comparing it to, compared to Bogotá or Cartagena perhaps.

There are many here who love Cali and don't have problems.

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Atrevido says on Dec 8, 2004, 05:30:

I think you can live in Cali and avoid problems but yes it is dangerous. The guerrilla aren't the problem in the city it's the delinquente comun.

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Calena67 says on Dec 8, 2004, 08:13:

Depends where you go, there are places that you cant go, . It's dangerous like any other large city here in US or anywhere, just dont give the opportunity people robe you.

I would recommend you:

When you take a taxi, ALWAYS, ask it by phone.
Dont wear jewerly
Dont drink to much, at least you have with more people.
DONT go to discos in midtown.
Dont go to midtown at night

AND GO TO CALI, it's very nice city.

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cappucchino says on Dec 8, 2004, 08:25:

thanks a lot. realy. here in germany anybody says that it will be really dangerous... is there something else what would be better if i wouldn`t do it??

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brad216 says on Dec 8, 2004, 08:33:

dont listen You really need to decide how afraid you are to make your decision. Being a gringo that speaks no spanish and depends on my fiance and her friends to get around Cali...I feel very comfortable there. I live in Philadelphia and have lived in New York and I don't feel any different when i travel to Cali as i do when walking around at night in other cities. Yes, you need to stay out of certain areas at night and be smart when going out dancing and drinking, but don't let what others tell you influence your decision. Don't worry about guerrilla's unless they escape the zoo. But really, in the city you should feel safe but unfortunately it might not be safe traveling outside of Cali to the smaller towns. I would recommend flying to other parts of the country to sight see...or take bus to small towns but ONLY in the daytime. I hope you enjoy your time in Cali.
Brad

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Calena67 says on Dec 8, 2004, 08:44:

And Dont go to Cristorey, Las Tres Cruces, The Belalcazar Statue in the night.

The guerrilla is in the mountains. Dont travel to small towns, except Palmira or Jamundi.

My best friend, her sister and her cousin and an aunt are married with Germans and all vacations they go to Cali, the love it, if you want to talk to them, I would contact them with you.

Greatings,

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 8, 2004, 10:58:

not even Belalcazar? That's one of my favorite stops: I always go there to say hi to my buddy Sebastián. The view at nighttime is very nice! I've heard about Cristo Rey being dangerous, and also Tres Cruces. I've climbed the hill myself, in good company, at daytime and many years ago, of course.
Downtown Cali makes me nervous, even at daylight. I take a taxi to Plaza del Cayzedo, ask the driver to wait while I run my errands and get out of the place like a bat out of hell. I like visiting the food markets, like Alameda, and don't feel any danger at all, in spite of all the dodgy characters that hang around the place. Avenida sexta feels safe too, even at night.
I'll have to start calling for taxis instead of catching them right off the Roosevelt or Quinta. You guys have made me nervous.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Lionheart says on Dec 8, 2004, 11:05:

moving to Cali myself I am German and US - stay in contact with me then we can rant and rave in German in Cali. Not many German speakers around.

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rash9000 says on Dec 8, 2004, 11:06:

Yes U can go. If you go to NY you need to be aware of pickpockets and thieves. It's the same in Cali. But you can enjoy your stay if:
-avoid wearing jewelry.
-Avoid going downtown, it's caothic.
-Guerrilla is not an issue in most major cities.
- U beter travel with someone who knows where to go and where not to go.

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rash9000 says on Dec 8, 2004, 11:15:

go to Cerro de las tres cruces, early on weekends.
- Yanaconas turistic center
- shopping malls
- La ermita
- Fifth St
- neighboring towns
- there are many rivers where you can go.
- Sixth Avenue ( You can't say you were in Cali and you didn't go the sixth avenue)
- The ZOO

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cappucchino says on Dec 9, 2004, 08:26:

another time muchas gracias! ok... you have taken my miedo (?) a bit away. thank for that. really! ok, ill go and will follow your advice. :) and hopefully there wont be probs. Thank you all!!

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mrxcol says on Dec 9, 2004, 09:39:

List of places Dancing
Original old times salsa music:

- Juanchito (a city nearby cali with about 30 discoteques)
- La Pollera Colora (old fashoned disco)

Modern pop and rock music
- Baiao
- La Casa de la cerveza (located in Ciudad Jardin, Rancho de Jonas and north)
- Plaza norte (home for abut 7 disco and bars)
- Quest cafe bar. (My business !!!! a disco, bar and an internet caffe. located in Avenida Pasoancho and 67. Look

for a castle like house).


Shopping centers
- Holguines Center. (Rigth in front of Unicentro. very much luxurious and host the Royal Pacific Hotel (the most

luxurious in town).
- Unicentro (south about 300 stores.)
- Chipichape (North about 250 stores and a casino)
- Cosmocentro (center South. cheap site)
- Pasarela (North - Only for computer stuff but also the biggest Casino in town)


Historical and not-to-forget places
- La Ermita (old style medieval church. Most famous church in town)
- San Antonio (old style church and sigthseeing place. Nice artisanry shops)
- Loma de la cruz (sigthseeing place and local artisanry shopping)
- Plaza de caicedo (historical city center. If you wanna feel the real Old Cali, don't leave without visiting the

place)
- Hacienda el Paraiso (historical beautiful rural house. Located 1 1/2 hours from cali). Famous for hosting the

love story of Efrain and Maria (Jorge Isaacs's La Maria book in 1800)
- Hacienda Piedechinche (historical rural house which stand for the sugar cane museum. Is located near a sugar

production center)
- Mirador de Belalcazar (city founders statue with a sigthseeing site. Not the best view but a very popular

place).
- Paseo Bolivar. (An open passage connecting La Ermita and the city mayor offices. Lots ol local folklore shops

in this area. You can get to the 6th avenue from here).
- 6th Avenue. (About 100 shops, discotheques and bars all around this avenue. Worldwide famous site)
- Menga P'acá. (Located near the exit to Menga (North). It's a complex including restaurants, disco's, bar's, a

skating place and a karts driving place).
- Pueblito Valluno. (old Cali's replica. Located in the way to Yumbo (new road to Yumbo). There are nice

restaurants, old fashioned food, old fashioned houses and a restaurant near the cauca river)
- Yaku. (A big place with lots of farms. You can get to find all the rural nimals in this place. There are pigs,

horses, chickens, ponys, sheeps and all kind of animals.)


Restaurants


- Sansai: Japanese food. Located in ciudad Jardin.
- Rio D'Enero / Rio D' Brazil: Rodizio restaurant. Located in Ciudad Jardin
- Tardes Caleñas: Restaurant and disco. very nice place.
- Tony Romas: Guess you know it. Worldwide famous for its ribs. Located in Dann Carlton Hotel
- ventanas al Mundo. Located in 43rd floor of the "Torre de Cali" building, the city highest. Great city view.
- El bochinche. You can't leave without visiting this restaurant. It's the most famous restaurant for after

dancing. Open 24 hours but most of the customers arrives at 2 - 3 AM after dancing at the discos. You must try

the local "lengua a la criolla" (onion seasoned Beef tongue). Located in the 13th st and 15.
- Leños y Carbon: Great steaks. Located in Unicentro and Chipichape.
- Simon Parrilla: All types of food. Located in Menga P'Acá complex. Nice tasting food.



if you want i can guide you in Cali. This is not a commercial service. I just like knowing people from all around

the world and get them to realy know how my city is. I want to help to make Cali a world known safe city !

if in Cali, call me at (57-2) 339-2292 (my house) or at mu business (57-2) 331-8647. Bye

Julian

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caslug says on Dec 9, 2004, 09:44:

Great post julian!!! Made a copy for myself This is the exactly what us tourist folks need, hopefully other cali vets will post similar. Very concise and informative. Next time I come down to Cali I may just give you a ring for a beer.

But I thought hollywood casino was the newest & biggest? Does the on near parsala have more card tables?

THANKS!

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caslug says on Dec 9, 2004, 09:56:

how far is Juancito? from avienda sexta by taxi? And how relative safe it is? When is it happening Fri/Sat only, or other days?

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michaelz says on Dec 9, 2004, 10:32:

Is Cali dangerous Yes and no.

I've been there at least 10 times and only had one problem. A kid of about 20 pulled a knife and tried to rob me at night on Ave. Sexta. I got away by jumping into traffic.

Since then I've learned.

On most streets, don't walk around alone at night, even crowded streets like Ave Sexta. Take only safe taxis (preferably phone taxis). Try to meet some reliable locals and travel around with them.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 9, 2004, 10:37:

Juanchito is very close to Cali, just about 15 minutes by taxi from downtown.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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calipro says on Dec 10, 2004, 04:38:

caslug It's been a while since I have gone to Juanchito to go dancing. But, I used to go to Changos in Juanchito every Sunday. The place opens at about 5pm. and I usually leave at around 3am. To tell you the truth I don't know how late in stays open. They have a salsa show and I would say 90% of the dance music is salsa also. So if you want to have a good time I suggest you brush up on your salsa before going. Now I usually go dancing at Tienda Vieja on Sundays. There seems to be a few more single women running around there which can be a good or bad thing depending on whether or not you are with someone.

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cappucchino says on Dec 10, 2004, 07:49:

im really glad to hear this thing about the salsa show. I love dancing salsa! oh... you all are making me ganas to go to cali. i can`t say how glad i`m because you are helping me soooooo much. muchas gracias chicos!

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caslug says on Dec 10, 2004, 09:11:

CP i've been to.. Teinda Vieja on Sundays, u right there's lots of women, i didn't know if they were single or not because many were in a big group. Do you think that Tienda Vieja is a better place or Changos for Salsa dancing/people watching on Sundays? Thanks!

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emilyh says on Dec 10, 2004, 20:09:

felt very safe and can't wait to get back there!! Lots of the things that Julian posted were things that I did....but there were also lost that I look forward to doing when I get back there in a few weeks!

I really enjoyed taking a Chiva to Juanchito....especially after everytime I was in Bogota I was constantly asked if I had been yet. I finally dragged my boyfriend away from the futbol on TV and we went and had a really great time! Speaking of futbol, that is another thing I would reccomend. Try to go and see s game at the stadium. It was very different to stadiums that I am used to and I loved the electricity in the air, the constant chanting and beating of drums and I will definitely go to more games this time.

Overall, I used to entertain myself for hours just walking all over the place. I would try not to get too lost and like others have said I didn't wear flashy jewellery or anything to make myself stand out. That said, I still did stand out a little, but I never felt threatened at all.

The best part? Well, I really do love Bogota too because it reminds me of my home town a little more and as well I have more friends/family there, but when you get off the plane in Cali and get into the taxi you really feel like the whole city is somehow more alive! It is really a vibrant, beautiful place :)

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 11, 2004, 00:24:

Your own question should tell you what the answer is!!! Really. If you what just take a moment to reflect upon the words in your question: Dangerous, freightened, guerillas...etc. Honestly, all words are applicable and then some. Of all the countries in the world to work in, why would you even consider risking your life in a country that has the distinction of being at the top of list for civilian kidnappings? Or why would you want to live in a country where narcoterrorisnm is so pervasive, that any person with even a reasonable amount of money, is subject to being kidnapped. Colombia is also a country where approxiamtely %40 of the physical geography of country is not even controlled by the legitimate Colombian government, but is in fact controlled by the FARC,Colombia's largest and oldest guerilla/terrorist orgainization.

Now let me add inform you, I was born in Cololmbia, and I still have family in Colombia (Santafe' de Bogota') Yet, I unlike many Colombians, cannot nor will not pretend that all is well. For these fools who previously wrote that "all cities have good and bad areas" or something similar, that is an analogy that is unacceptable. In particular, Cali is no place for a foreigner to live. While the central area of the city is reasonably safe, if you drive only 45 minutes outside of the city to towns like Florida, Buga, and Yumbo, you will be entering into territory that is completely controled by the FARC. In other words, you will not be able to rely on any local,legitimately established government authority to protect you in any way from the guerilla threat. If you are there more than a few hours, you will be identified by locals, reported to kidnappers (either local ones, or the guerilla ones.) In any event, invariably you will be kidnapped and everyone from the initial informant to the local kidnappers (who sell you to the guerilla kidnappers) will be compensated. Please understand, Colombian people are very warm, and hospitable. But the poor economy, high unemployment, and high cost of living make it impossible for many to people to survive. Hence, conspiring with kidnappers is commonplace. Many people will do anything to survive.

Consider this point. Go to a typical international hotel and observe the high level of security. Private and public police check cars for bombs at the entrance (Intercontinental and Dann). People with rifles and machine guns often linger in the lobby putting a chill on what is otherwise a rather luxurious decor. If you stay in one of the regular hotels for the locals, you easily can be distiguished from the Colombian population, and because of the poor or non existant security, you stand a reasonably good chance of being kidnapped. So, we will assume you speak Spanish. But believe me, if you are not a native born Colombian, you will easily be distinguished from other native Spanish speaking Colombians. Paisas, rolos, coatenllos, calenos, all have their distict Colombian accents. Additionally, let's assume that your chances of being kidnapped are only 1 in a 100 or even 1 in a 1000 (believe me, it's hire than that), is it worth risking your life??? Do you have any medical conditions that need monitoring? Any medicnies that you must take?? If you are kidnapped, you will not be able to get the care and drugs that are needed for your survival. In short, life has a lot of situations that arrise and thus pose a threat to one's existance. Unfortunaltely, we have little control as to when or where these threats come our way. (a car accident, disease, etc.) But when we can avoid situations that we know pose a real threat to our life, we should do so. Therefore, if you don't have family there, you don't have a compelling need to go there. For further information, go to the United States' State Dept's Travel Advisory on Colombia. It specifically advises Americans against all travel to Colombia, regardless of the purpose. If this Email does not convice you, the Travelers Advisory should do so. Good Luck and stay out
Gomezman5

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calipro says on Dec 11, 2004, 01:07:

To late Gomezman5 The cat is already out of the bag. I know four gringos that live in Cali and I have personally traveled over thirty times to Colombia and probably spent at least a year of my life there.

I do think guys that travel outside the city limits are taking an unnecessary risk and I will often advise americans against taking road trips.

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greenday says on Dec 11, 2004, 05:59:

sorry gomezman Florida, Buga, & Yumbo are not completely controlled by FARC. Where are you getting your information???

People, this guy is 100% off base, ignore his warnings..........

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 11, 2004, 16:32:

Calipro--Your non-responsive response ! Calipro,

I have made a very detailed case as to why Colombia is dangerous, and you just dismiss what I have said because you claim you and friends have been there many times and nothing has happened. So, what does that mean? Is the US State Department wrong too?

What you are saying is analagos to the following:

A person stands in front of a highway, closes his eyes, and without looking, decides to cross the street hoping that he will not get killed. He may indeed suceede in doing so time after time. But sooner or later, he will get run over. Or you can walk accross an ice covered lake, in spite of warnings not to do so, and you might make it to the other side. Some day however, you will not make it, and you will break the ice and go under water and die. In other words, don't tempt fate. Saying that you have overcome defeated the odds in an obvious dangerous situation, does NOT make the actiivty that you are engaging in less dangerous......Get it???

Gomezman5

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Atrevido says on Dec 11, 2004, 17:13:

As a gringo who'se... been in Cali for three years I confirm that Gomezman5's post is accurate. Here's an example that happened last week. (For those who don't read Spanish, four guys from the worst barrio in Cali tried to kidnap a Palestinian sugercane magnate in order to sell him to the FARC. His wife came down the stairs firing a pistol AND a submachine gun. Fortunatly the fuckers were caught.)


"Alto Dapa. Se enfrentaron a una banda de cuatro hombres
Una pareja evitó su propio secuestro
Noviembre 26 de 2004


Emocionado, el señor Khamis Andrawis le expresa al comandante de la Policía su agradecimiento por la protección que le brindó.

Un industrial de origen palestino se resistió a ser sacado de su residencia. Su cónyuge se enfrentó a los maleantes con dos armas y los puso en fuga. La Policía de Cali los capturó minutos después.

Un empresario de nacionalidad palestina y su esposa colombiana se enfrentaron, de manera valiente, a una banda que intentó secuestrarlos dentro de su propia vivienda en un exclusivo sector de Dapa.

Asimismo, en una rápida acción de la Policía Metropolitana, coordinada con los sistemas de seguridad del vecindario, se logró dar captura a cuatro hombres cuando intentaban huir tras el frustrado plagio.

La dramática historia de esta familia comenzó cuando los hombres llegaron hasta la parcelación campestre, hacia las 8:00 a.m. de ayer, preguntando por la señora Sonia Moncayo, dueña de la residencia.

Una vez adentro, los cuatro hombres se dirigieron hasta la cocina donde estaba el señor Khamis Andrawis Sayeghabdela, de 67 años de edad, natural de Palestina y cañicultor con 50 años en Colombia, al cual intentaron someter amenazándolo con dos revólveres.

“Querían que saliera con ellos de la casa pero yo les dije que no y empecé a forcejear y a gritar�, contó el industrial.

Su esposa, doña Sonia, quien se encontraba en el piso superior haciendo su oración de la mañana, escuchó los gritos y sacando fuerzas del miedo tomó una pistola y una ametralladora, y con un arma en cada mano bajó en su auxilio.

Cuando llegó a la planta baja vió como los maleantes intentaban sacar por la fuerza a su cónyuge y se les enfrentó haciendo dos disparos al aire. Al parecer, viendo la actitud de la señora y la resistencia del palestino los cuatro hombres pusieron pies en polvorosa.

El presunto líder de la banda que intentó plagiar al industrial palestino es el esposo de la enfermera que atendió a la suegra de este, y a quien había ayudado económicamente.
Para entonces, y sin que ellos lo supieran, todo el condominio, que había sospechado de su presencia, ya tenía disparadas todas sus alarmas y alertado a la Policía.

Cuando los cuatro hombres, provenientes del Distrito de Aguablanca, intentaron tomar un atajo hacia Dapa Bajo, una patrulla de la Policía los capturó.

Estos fueron identificados como Yesid Camacho Olave, de 25 años de edad; José Félix Aguas Obando, de 31; Marvin Javier Leudo Sánchez, de 20, y Martín Alonso Castro Hernández, de 36, taxista, quienes,
según el comandante de la Policía Metropolitana, coronel Jesús Antonio Gómez Méndez, pretendían vender el secuestro a la guerrilla.

En el operativo se decomisó un Chevrolet Monza blanco de placa MBC-297, un arma de fuego, munición y un celular.

Khamis Andrawis agradeció la rápida reacción de la Policía y manifestó que no se irá del país."

Florida is indeed under the thumb of the FARC. Buga is subject to incursions. Yumbo is not known to have guerrilla problems.

Calipro I gather that in your thirty odd visits to Colombia you haven't ventured beyond the city limits of Cali. I can't imagine what besides the women has held your interest for so long.

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caslug says on Dec 11, 2004, 17:27:

The stakes are higher in COL.. Especially regarding safety issues. But, it won't keep foreigner from coming to cali for host of reasons. Hopefully, travellers should know, if don't already that Cali(to some extend COL) is not disneyland. Mistakes that you make in home town(USA/Europe) are going to cost even more in foreign country, let alone a city in COL like Cali. Make a wrong turn or walking down the wrong neighborhood in the CALI has a much greater consequence than the same action in your home town. Stories like what Atrevideo mention are good to hear because they should remind us that you can't take safety for granted in Cali or COL.

That said, danger in Cali or any COL city is there, BUT there are many ways to minimize and reduce your chances from become a victim. I think if you guys want to help us travellers tell us those kinda of real "crime" stories, but also tell us how to be safe AFTER we made our decision to go. For example, the most important advice I was given was "don't wander off the safe zones", this advice is even more important at night. Walking 5 blocks in the day maybe ok in area, but at night maybe you should take taxi for those same 5 blocks.

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greenday says on Dec 11, 2004, 17:46:

atrevido don't know if you follow the news of any major city in the US. Things similar (even worse) happen almost every week in the 10 largest cities in the US. Maybe I'll do a weekly download here, just to give you an idea, since you seemingly are isolated from the reality of life.
Sorry, but Florida, Buga, & Yumbo ARE NOT under the direct control of FARC.

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Atrevido says on Dec 11, 2004, 17:47:

My news account above refers to the danger of living here not visiting however good advise for vistors is don't enter empty streets and in Cali stay out of "La Olla" roughly the barrio El Calvario especially Calle 16 in El Centro if you're on foot.

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ColombianoX says on Dec 11, 2004, 17:47:

COLOMBIANO CHIVIADO!!!!! Gomezman5,

It never ceases to amaze me how some of the people who give Colombia such a bad image are actually ingrates who unfortunately were born there, such as this individual (assuming he's really a colombian). If you hate our beloved Colombia so much then just forget about her altogether, but don't come to this board to further tarnish her name by exacerbating the distorted image that is depicted by the biased international media. Si usted es en realidad colombiano, verguenza debería darle en venir a hablar aquí de esa manera tan despectiva sobre la Patria! Colombiano chiviado!!!

ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Atrevido says on Dec 11, 2004, 18:03:

Greenday as to following the local news of any US city no can't say as I do but I'm pretty sure the incidence of people being kidnapped and sold to rebel groups is on the low side. If you read my post to the end one interpretation could be that Yumbo is not under the direct control of the FARC. No need to apologise.

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greenday says on Dec 11, 2004, 18:51:

atrevido who cares??? crime is crime, what is the difference between a murder in Cali, or a murder in Detroit??..........show me one incident of an american being pulled of the streets of Cali, or any other Colombian city, and being sold to the FARC.........just one. I doubt if any American will ever set foot in the afore-mentioned barrio....nor do many Americans walk the streets of Cali at night. The fact is, although Colombia is dangerous, a regular American tourist will never come close to this type of crime, nor even witness a crime for that matter. Enough with the scare tactics.

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ColombianoX says on Dec 11, 2004, 18:55:

Greenday,

Way to go! I don't where you're from, but you sound more like a true colombian than that Gomezman5.


ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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greenday says on Dec 11, 2004, 19:17:

colombianoX my pleasure..........35 trips to Colombia in the last 10 years. NEVER have even seen a crime committed. Have been treated like a king by both men and women (of course I enjoy the treatment from the women better). Do I travel far outside the cities??? NO, do I recommend it ??? NO.......but the normal tourist is VERY safe in Colombia. As far as the State Dept. warnings go.......it's just a farce......of course they need to send those out to cover their a**es. But it's the same drivel I've been reading for the last 10 years.
Take my advice.......GO TO COLOMBIA!!!! You won't regret it........

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kernow62 says on Dec 11, 2004, 19:33:

Gomezman5 if you believe things just because the State Department tells you something is true then you really should reconsider your sources. For example they warn against riding buses in Bogotá, well I suppose something could happen but the chances are mighty slim. The State Department is erring on the side of caution and taking it to extremes. I can understand their point, they don't want Americans in danger, except of course if oil is at stake, then it is OK for young men and women to put themselves in grave danger.

I agree that Colombia has a long way to go before it is safe as Western Europe, but things are improving all the time. Have you been back to Bogotá lately to visit your family? Then you have probably noticed things are starting to improve. We too have family in Bogotá, some of them work for the government, and they travel quite a bit within Colombia for pleasure, much more so than a few years ago. Now knowing what a person with a high ranking government position would be privy to regarding security, would they travel for pleasure, go camping, hiking, mountain climbing? Certainly they wouldn't if things were as bad as you say. True they are not foreign tourists, but they are certainly running a risk by being fairly wealthy by Colombian standards. Of course Bogotá and environs is not Cali and environs, but yours was a blanket statement to avoid all of Colombia.

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ColombianoX says on Dec 11, 2004, 19:39:

Thank you both, Greenday and kernow62, you guys are honorary colombians in my book!

ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Lionheart says on Dec 11, 2004, 20:46:

the TV might implode "I can understand their point, they don't want Americans in danger, except of course if oil is at stake, then it is OK for young men and women to put themselves in grave danger."

I am too lazy to check the current travel advisaries for eastern europe, the middle east and several far east nations. I recall reading some years ago, none were as bad as the Colombia one.

I believe the advisories represent political perceptions, not actual serious neutral advice.

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caslug says on Dec 11, 2004, 20:51:

Danger.. Danger.. Funny you should say that Mitch1X, I was thinking the same thing. I live in Lake Forest, CA which claim to fame this year was being name THE SAFEST CITY IN THE USA!!! By the FBI I think. Anytime I leave my little city(suburb of Orange County) then I'm in DANGER! Now when I'm COL i do take extra precuation and don't take safety for granted, like at home.

Gomez post does paint an extreme situation that most if not all tourist will NEVER run into UNLESS the tourist does sometime unadvised, like renting a car and driving around cali & various towns day & night at all hours. Or being drunk with lots of jewlery showing, stumbling along dark alley way. Or of course engaging in illegal activities. At the same time, just because we/I been to cali several time and nothing major happened doesn't mean we should drop our guard or tell other people to do the same.

If you want to visit CALI for any reason, just be careful and have fun. Cali or COL is not like vacationing in Hawaii or Disneyland.

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mrxcol says on Dec 11, 2004, 23:28:

Colombia is a safe destination for tourists I wonder what did happen to "atrevido" and "gomezman5" to say those things about Colombia. It takes a lot of info to investigate prior to being totally accurate when saying Buga is a FARC controlled area or when if you ever get to be caugth speaking a foreign languaje anywhere in Colombia you will become kidnapped inmmediately (that's the scenario this two guys wanted to describe)

Fortunately there are many people who does know how does life is in Colombia for colombians and foreigners. Otherwise there wouldn't be about 600 monthly request for colombia nationalization. I know there are over 2000 people leaving the country monthly but that's another situation (most of the people is leaving for a way to get more money in other country, not because of insecurity)

Once ago i had a discussion with a colombian guy living in montreal. Sadly i had to tell the things the way they are and so i will here:

If in Colombia you ever get to try to cheat on somebody you may be (i'm not saying you will be, just that you may be) hit or killed. We're a violent country and don't hesitate on taking the fastest and shortest (that's the most stupid) solution to problems. About 4 of 100.000 people will take a choice like that. That's sad but is a true. No matter where people comes from or even if they're colombian, if you mess with the wrong guy you will get in real problems (and that's a worldwide fact). It's only that's the rate is higher in Colombia.

Other point is that in Colombia we're poor (but happy). There's a bigger possibility of being robbed in Cali's 8th st than in NYC's 5th av. Wanna compare ? we won't finish ever this task. You will also get robbed in NYC and don't say that's it wrong to say that all cities do have dangerous areas. It's stupid and nonsense ! how do you want a fair comparation to be done if you don't accept a basic thing. Is it that NYC's dangerous areas aren't as dangerous as Colombia's dangerous city areas ? Don't be so idiot ! worldwide you will get robbed if you get in the worg area. And you will get killed if yuo get with the wrong guy.

Just use your intuition and you will spened a nice time in Colombia. We do have multimillionaries here too. And they ahve their US$ 60K and US$ 100K cars rolling in the streets of Bogota, Cali and Medellin. And not all of them are drug lords. There is good peopled working for a good country and many, many people coming every year. We do have a guerrilla situation we can't hide. But we do have police and safe areas. You have NOTHING to do in rural areas in Colombia unless you're a worker in that field. Foreigners go to cities and touristic places not to guerrilla controlled zones (yes, there are but they're in cities with less than 100.000 inhabitants).

Most of the people here are good people working for a good country. We don't run away from problems. Three yars ago i had nothing but good hopes and i didn't left the country even though i could make it. Now, I do have a good way of living and i can leave the country any time i want. But still i don't and i won't. We real colombians don't run from problems.

So, reader. You will find out that Colombia is a good place for Colombians and for foreigners. I won't tell why. There are lots of websites on the internet and even forums in this own website which will guide you about the facts. Colombia is a very weird place but a nice and beautiful place to visit.

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 11, 2004, 23:28:

Atrevido...Your story is typical and indicative of the climate Calipro,lives the life of denial. You and I have given detailed examples of life in Colombia. Calipro knows the truth, but like a majority of Colombians living in Colombia, and here in the states, it is much easier for them to pretend all is well, even when it is not. Unfortunately, the first step in resolving any problem, is to have to acknowledge the existance of the problem. A failure to do so will doom Colombia to a cycle of violence that sees no end in the near term. You are 100% correct as to the situation in Florida. It is an exceptionally dangerous place. I have a friend that the FARC taxed so heavily, (I cannot mention the business) he was practically working to pay the FARC. When he complained about the unjustness and inability to pay. The FARC told him if he did not pay, his family (wife and daughter) would be killed. As you know, the FARC doesn't bluff. They make their threats, and act upon them as well. In the end, my friend had to "sell" the business to a FARC supporter, and he along with his family left Valle and moved to the coast. (Barranquilla)

A few years ago, Buga had a candidate for mayor assasinated. By guess who.......The FARC ! After the assasination, other candidates withdrew, and a puppet of the FARC was elected. Calipro has a big ego. He should swallow his pride, acknowledge the truth, and tell that American woman NOT to go to Colombia under any circumstances.

Gomezman5

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 11, 2004, 23:43:

ColombianoX Your denial doesn't make the situation better. Typical attitude of my people...exactemente...mi gente. Cuando digo Colombiano soy Yo, tiene que aceptar que digo. IF not it's your problem. The biased media??? Are you kidding. Colombia leads the world in kidnappings. Did you know that the second place country is not even close to over taking Colombia? Sometimes, the truth hurts. Come on man...where is your head. 40% of the geography is controlled by a combiantion of 3 guerilla organizations. Between the guerillas, narco guerillas, paramilitaries, a currupt national police, and an undermanned and technologically backward military......it's not even worth debating.
Do you remember what our dear paisas said in Medellin when Pablo was reeking havoc on our beloved Colombia???? "Aqui no pasa nada" Olvidaste hombre??? You are just repeating this line of thinking!!

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 11, 2004, 23:58:

Hey....I'm not completely negative Our Colombianitas are the BEST ...mas hermosa, mas preciosas, mas sexy, ----- than any Gringa...Ok I'm generalizing. But, they are beautiful....But when the get here (the US) they change. They learn to think like gringas. So if you want to marry a Colombian woman and be happy, marry her in Colombia and stay there..Ok, does everybody feel better?

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cappucchino says on Dec 12, 2004, 02:42:

ok... i read all your advice. first: thank u for wanting help me.
i want to go really to colombia. i don`t know why but i like this country.
so, can anybody give me some advice what i can do/can`t do and which streets avoid/ which not etc....?
which "mistakes" could i make, what shouldn`t do? i want to be preperet (because i don`t want to end like gomezman5 told...)
give a sumerize of the most important things plaese...

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BxUnika says on Dec 12, 2004, 02:46:

Mis Dos Centavos I have never been to Cali, but had a boyfriend and friends from there. This is just my opinion:

As for Detroit's murder rate being the same as Cali's? Well, if they were comparable I don't think their would be a travel advisory in effect for Colombia and not one for Detroit. You can pretend statistics make no difference all you like, but you're only fooling yourself. Sure, a lot of things are overrated.

For example, people always talk about how you will be murdered and brutally attacked in the Bronx. Well, I lived there and am there nearly everyday and I'm still here. Do I know people who have been robbed? Yes. Do I know people who have had friends and family members murdered there? Oh, yeah. You would be a fool to think otherwise and you and no invincible to crime there nor are you anywhere.

"Is it that NYC's dangerous areas aren't as dangerous as Colombia's dangerous city areas?"

Not even close. We have maybe 500 murders a year out of a population of 8 million and they are usually in a select few neighborhoods. We are about the safest major city in the US. If you want a tour of Harlem or the South Bronx, I'd be more than happy to show you around. Hell, I was in Harlem and the Bronx tonight...after dark...alone. Would any of you volunteer to take me to Siloe or Aguablanca? Even in the worst areas of the South Bronx you are reasonably safe during the day and we don't have shacks.

I was sitting in a playground with my boyfriend near the South Bronx one night and he remarked that as NYers and Americans we'd call that a bad neighborhood, but that in Cali it would be considered normal. That kind of stuck with me considering that particular neighborhood is known for drugs and shootings.

I have seen pictures of shacks in Siloe and sorry to tell you guys, but the closest thing we had to slum settlements were eliminated about 10 years ago. If you really want to find a shack or cardboard box, yeah, you'll find it but it'd be hard nowadays.

"The fact is, although Colombia is dangerous, a regular American tourist will never come close to this type of crime, nor even witness a crime for that matter."

Tell that to American tourists here in US cities who've been attacked or witnessed crimes.


"Calipro,lives the life of denial. You and I have given detailed examples of life in Colombia. Calipro knows the truth, but like a majority of Colombians living in Colombia, and here in the states, it is much easier for them to pretend all is well, even when it is not"

Well, consider your source. This is a guy from California who once said the middle and upper-class areas in Cali were "safer than anyplace in New York", yet later admitted he knew almost nothing about NYC and hadn't been there in years.

I'm sorry, but I don't have to travel to Colombia to know that a lot of you live in dream worlds. I don't think there is one place in the US where you will encounter the level of poverty that you will in Colombia. If someone from Colombia is telling you this, it is for a reason. I don't subscribe to the "all good/all bad" way of looking at people, places, and situations. Yeah, it's nice that YOU have never had a problem, but what about those who have been kidnapped or attacked or have lost their lives? Should I tell people who have lost loved ones to violence in my neighborhood that they are wrong to think what they think?

There is a difference between being paranoid and being cautious just as there is a difference between being optimistic and being just plain naive. Ignorance is bliss and until you are in a situation where violence and crime is an everyday thing, you really can only just try to use common sense.

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Atrevido says on Dec 12, 2004, 05:49:

Greenday With thirty five trips to Colombia under your belt why not share some of your pictures here.

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greenday says on Dec 12, 2004, 06:31:

atrevido pictures of what??? my women?? sorry, I don't post pictures, I just post FACTS.

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Atrevido says on Dec 12, 2004, 13:17:

Well Greenday It's great to post "FACTS". That's what a lot of people are looking for here. Next question would be where do you get the "FACTS" you post? Nothing wrong with sharing hearsay but I try to use public news reports as my source.

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caslug says on Dec 12, 2004, 13:31:

Good post BX.. Very persusive, COL is more "dangerous" than US, the worst area of COL will beat the worst hands down. People do need to consider their safety and just careful if you decide to travel there. As a tourist your chance of something happen to you is pretty low if you take precaution. Because tourist are not living there day to day, we're passing thru, staying at friends or hotel, then leaving. Foreigners living in CALI do have to be concern w/ safety every day.

I've met a gringo that lived there for FOUR years and he gave me some info on the situation. He doens't let to many people know where he lives or what he does, especially a local girl when he first dates them, he is careful when he breaks up w/ them. He has both a car & a scooter, i asked him isn't a scooter more dangerous? HE said, only in accident, BUT he can easily "escape" with scooter from harm because scooters can go between cars and on sidewalks. While w/ a car, it's safer for accidents BUT if you stuck traffic and someone carjacks you, you stucked! One time a thief comes up a STEALS his passanger side mirror! WHILE he was in the car AND at stop light.

Look at the house in middle class neighbor or better in CALI, they have BARS AND SECURITY GUARD WITH GUNS! you don't see that in USA. Why do you think all hotel and apartment in CALI have a night security guard, most w/ guns. Safety and security in COL should NOT be taken lightly.

CAP, In the daytime, many areas are safe just walk where you see bunch of people walking, and ALWAYS ask locals if an area is safe before you go on your "walks". At night, most people don't go out, so on many street it's deserted, so you'll have always know where you are. I recommend calling for a taxi to get you from point a to point b at night, even if it's only 5 or 6 blocks.

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greenday says on Dec 12, 2004, 13:54:

atrevido if I didn't know better, I would think you were trying to instigate a fight with me......I like you better when you make posts about where one can find tools in Cali......you might want to change your name from atrevido to ABURRIDO
Now, better lock yourself inside your house there in Cali before the bad guys get you.
Have a nice day!!

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Atrevido says on Dec 12, 2004, 14:01:

Caslug Your paragraph about the gringo who has lived in Bogota for four years and the security measures he takes is right on the money. Another example: when I take a taxi home I have the driver let me off a block beyond my house. Visitors for a week or two don't need to concern themselves with things like that but longer term residents sure do.

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caslug says on Dec 12, 2004, 14:14:

atrevido.. The gringo was like you and lived in CALI, good guy, was from FL moved down got married a COL but divorced after a few years, gave me some very background and stories about COL society & people. He has his own little import company so he's also careful regarding doing business w/ people.

Good advice on the taxi, if i decide to move down there i'll have to remember that. Little safety advice like that is what makes me understand we can't take things for granted like here in the states. We tourist passing thru for a week or two sometimes don't realize that. Some think, if nothing bad HAS happen then it CAN'T happen, i wish them the best if they keep thinking that way.

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Atrevido says on Dec 12, 2004, 14:22:

Greenday and there I thought it was you trying to pick a fight. No kiddo I was giving you the benefit of the doubt but it looks like you just want to spar. Now why don't drop the smart alec routine and post some usefull info from those thirty-five trips to Colombia.

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greenday says on Dec 12, 2004, 15:34:

atrevido first of all my name isn't kiddo, secondly, maybe you need to re-read my posts above where I state "FOR A TOURIST TRAVELING TO COLOMBIA IS SAFE". What part of that don't you understand???
Now, you state otherwise, and you claim you use newpaper articles to back up your facts. The original poster is worried about guerrillas kidnapping him. I say he has nothing to worry about. You disagree.
As I stated in a previous post, state one incident of a gringo being kidnapped off the street of any Colombian city, and back it up with a newpaper article.
Number 3, I'll be a smart alec when I want, and I'll post what ever info I feel like sharing, so please quit the patronizing BS with me.
Thank you and have a good night!

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Atrevido says on Dec 12, 2004, 17:00:

Hey Kiddo Yeah you're Kiddo. Quote me where I say gringos are at risk of being "kidnapped off the street of any Colombian city". Do it! And then back up ANYTHING you've said with something besides hot air. Here's a clue sport: in todays El Pais you can read that the FARC have asked that Florida be granted to them as a new "Zona De Distencion".

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calipro says on Dec 12, 2004, 17:40:

Atrevido Has any american ever been kidnapped by FARC or ELN within the city limits of any of Colombias five largest cities?

If so, where, when and what is your source.

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 12, 2004, 17:45:

Caslug What is the tener of this conversation all about? Think about the absurdity of the things that you are are saying....It's utterly bizare."Tourist will NEVER run into ....unless the tourist does unadvised....like renting a car,and drives around Cali and various towns...day and night..." What kind of silliness is that? Can you think of any city in this country or any other major city of any American (north, central or south) that a person has to be afraid to enter a taxi, or rent a car??? Of course there are neighborhoods in all cities of the world that should be avoided, but to say: Don't wear Jewelry, don't take a taxi, don't get drunk and walk in public (by day or night), don't visit any nearby towns, and then say--aside from that...Go to Colombia and enjoy yourself. That's utterly rediculous. I don't know about you, but when I have a paid vacation, and I am taking time from my job, and I am leaving family behind, I don't want to go somewhere where I have to spend more time worrying about doing the wrong thing, than sightseeing. Latin America, has so many beautiful countries to visit....countries where violence in the form of guerilla insurrection, kidnappings at a rate unrivaled by any other country, simply don't exist, (Costa Rica, Panama,Guatemala, Dominican Republic, Brazil,almost all of Mexico(certainly the major tourist routes).and on and on...Why would you want to even take a chance on visiting the MOST violent of all the countries of Latin America. Why ?.... to be adventurous? To say I have made it home alive? What you also don't understand, and I do, because I have traveled to 17 different countries, is that when you are touring...your imagination and cutiosity always tempts you to explore what lies ahead. For example,my friend went on a cruise and the boat landed in Cartagena. When he arrived, he befriended someone who invited him to visit his family (the friend's) in Valledupar...How absurd? To the Colombian host, although he had the best of intentions, he clearly was not thinking straight when he invited an
American to Valledupar...Or I suppose you are going to say that Valledupar is safe for Americans too? When you are on vacation, and if you are outgoing and adventurous (which you have to be to go to Colombia in the first place)things just happen......so telling people to "be carefull,and use common sense" is silly. You should be able to go somewhere, relax, sight see, take taxis and busses, and go just about anywhere on the tourist track without fear.

I've said it all.

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 12, 2004, 17:55:

Atrevido Well put !! Right to the point. It does not appear that the majority agrees with us. I really don't care about these people who are in denial of reality...The one I am worried about is our traveler who initially posed the question about the threat of danger in Cali. This person doesn't seem to be swayed by our advice. We (I assume you are) are Colombian/Americans. Shouldn't this traveler stop and think that even if there is some risk of a danger, it takes a lot for us to speakly of our Colombia in a negative light. Therefore, the traveler might think that something isn't right??? After all, we're only talking about a life----potential death situation. I don't care, if the chances are remote....they exist !

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 12, 2004, 18:04:

BxUnika Extremely well put ! If you read my previous entries, I said about the same as you----especially about Calipros sense of denial. He does not even deny things intelligently. He just says things like;h
"Your wrong", or "Where did you hear (get) that from?" He essentially demurrs what you say...but does not offer any facts or even reasoned assertions that rebut what the other person says. Oh well

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Atrevido says on Dec 12, 2004, 18:13:

calipro For a definitive answer to your question you'll have to contact the US Embassy in Bogota. However in the mean time if I run accross an incident matching your inquiry I'll be sure and pass along all the details I'm privy to. Do you, like kiddo feel you've read something by me alluding to such incidents? Or are you extrapolating from my several references to news reports relating to general safety in and around Cali? In addition to quoting the El Pais report of the Dapa kidnap attempt I also mentioned the kidnapping of the occupants of four vehicles by FARC on the highway between Buga and Tulua that occured less than two weeks ago and before that reported the homicide figure in Cali during a "puente".

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greenday says on Dec 12, 2004, 18:21:

you're right Aburrido, I mean Atrevido I've changed my mind.......I'm NEVER going to Colombia again!!!!

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 12, 2004, 18:28:

Atrevido--you're quite correct ! Greenday and Calipro. Unfortunatly they confuse "Patria" with reality. Denial...and more denial. And endless cyle of the same rhetoric.....

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ColombianoX says on Dec 12, 2004, 19:18:

"Why would you want to even take a chance on visiting the MOST violent of all the countries of Latin America. Why ?...."

Gomezman5,

You seem to bear a lot of animosity against Colombia for some reason. Are you one of those bitter expats who wants to take out his frustration on Colombia because of YOUR misfortune while living there? To answer your question, the reason anyone should take a chance on visting Colombia is because it is in my opinion the most beautiful place on earth. Foreigners who were afraid to go like it so much that they stay there for good. Colombia has that effect on people, her charm is powerful indeed.

No one here is denying that there is possible danger in Colombia. What we are saying is that with the right precautions, any tourist should be alright in Colombia. If you lost faith in our country, that's too bad, but don't think that there aren't colombians (such as myself) who will always stick up for Colombia, no matter what.

ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 12, 2004, 20:33:

ColombianoX "El Defensor" Misfortunes....? I don't think so. I was born in Colombia, came here with my parents at the age of 7. Today I am in my lower 50's, I have an advanced degree (MBA), and I am a C.P.A.. I am a partner in a 3 person accounting firm. My income is much higher than the national average. I have a wonderful wife (15 years younger that me)and a 17 year old that is a senior in high school. Best of all, both my parent are still alive, and I am in relatively good health....

Sounds like I have had a lot of misfortunes. Doesn't it? You are probably younger than I am. That being said, I only wish those types of misfortunes come your way when you are my age.

I better not say any more, the FARC, might come knocking on my door......Can I call you for help?

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utopiacowboy says on Dec 12, 2004, 21:52:

One day my wife happened to mention that at various times 4 people who live in her apartment building had been kidnapped. I thought, What the....! And here she is telling me that Medellin is safe. Well, it turns out that none of them were abducted from the building itself or even from the city. Every one of them had been out wandering in rural Antioquia by him or herself when they were kidnapped. After payment of a ransom each one of them was returned unharmed. This is probably why my eldest stepson said that tourists wandering around Colombia unguided would be bound to get into trouble. If you are with someone who knows what's what or you have enough experience of your own, you'll be ok but it's not Disney World.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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calipro says on Dec 12, 2004, 22:49:

Atrevido "Do you, like kiddo feel you've read something by me alluding to such incidents? Or are you extrapolating from my several references to news reports relating to general safety in and around Cali?"

None of the above. I was just wondering if you knew something I didn't. I have never heard of a U.S. citizen being kidnapped while in any large city in Colombia.

I personally don't feel the least bit unsafe in Cali but I still don't like even driving to and from Lago Calima. I would rather be dead than kidnapped by the FARC but after traveling to Cali for 10 years I feel there is next to zero chance of that happening within the city limits of Cali.

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calipro says on Dec 12, 2004, 23:03:

Trip report from Cancun Hound Here is a post from a gringo that owns an apartment in Cali and is married to a Caleña. He routinly travels outside of the city to all kinds of places. There is no hiding the fact that he is a gringo either. He is tall with blonde hair. You would think that the FARC could spot him a mile away.

First of all I don't think what Cancun Hound does is safe. But my point is if the Cancun Hound can get away with driving all over the country side in Colombia why would I ever worry about being kidnapped in the city itself.

Posted by cancunhound on 12/12/2004
OK here it is - my suggestions for some day trips from Cali that are safe(?) and much more interesting than the typical zoo, sugar cane plantation, hacienda BS. I made the mistake of agreeing with my wife on buying a car down in Cali - now I'm kind of on board with it, as I hit the pavement alot over the last 2 weeks.

First, some driving tips - it may seem chaotic at first when driving in Cali proper but it basically boils down to this - buses and potholes - after you become familiar with a road you'll realize that the lanes are meaningless - what you wan't to do is avoid potholes and jockey for position to pass the buses that occupy the right lane - which is typically where you will need to be to change streets to get anywhere.

With passport and US drivers license you are good to go - no problems at checkpoints outside of the city. There is a false rumor that you should not carry your passport when traveling about - that's BS - you'll need your passport when stopped at police or army checkpoints - these are not a big deal. Make a copy of your passport and send it to an email account like yahoo so you can always retrieve it if needed. You'll encounter frequent tolls (peajes) on the roads outside of the city - for a small car expect a 3.7 mil peso fee for each one you pass.

Speaking of cars - last year I rented a nice 4x4 at the National Rent A Car office adjacent to the hotel Inter. I was stopped at every police/army checkpoint while driving through the cafetera zone. No problem - just a hastle - and I always carry packs of Malboro's to hand out as friendly gifts in these situations - Malboro's from the US are like gold.

My wife purchased at my request a "used" car - little did I know that what she had purchased was basically a brand new car that only had 2000 km on it. It's a 2 dooor chevy that is the rave down there now - and having driven it extensively through some tough terrain - I'm on board with it. It's got a peppy engine, wide stance and great ground clearance - I drove it like a jeep. I was not stopped at any checkpoints this trip.

So, here's the scoop:

http://www.picturetrail.com

Album = cancun_hound

I did not have time to massage the photos so it's best to view with a high speed connection:

1:) Pance
This is a stone's throw from southern Cali. Go on a weekend or a holiday when there are lots of people - ironically as close as it is to Cali - it's not exactly 100% safe. From Cali, take the Pance road and follow the river until it dead-ends at the first village (and police station). Take a left and an immediate right and continue up towards Pance. This village is where you'll wan't to grab lunch on your way back down - great chicken soup. The road all the way up is decent - however in some spots they've cemented (like a driveway) tracks so the only hastle is if a bus from Pance is coming down - you'll need to negotiate whom passes whom. Just prior to Pance on the right is a fantastic waterfall - pictures enclosed. Should you wan't to go further up - when in Pance at the first intersection make a dogleg left then right and continue up the gravel road. It terminates at a footbridge (see photos).

2:) Nirvana
My favorite destination close to Cali. This is a private nature reserve just outside of Palmira. From northern Cali, you're looking at 30 minutes to get there. Go on a Saturday or Sunday when it is open to the public and they serve lunch - best food I've had in Colombia - get the steak or trout. To find it, it's best to bring along somebody that's been there before as there are no blaring signs pointing it out. If interested, post here and I can dig up their phone number for specifics - a friend of mine in Colombia knows the family that owns/runs the operation. You will be stunned at what's there. Grab some lunch there at the restaraunt and enjoy the view, then head off on their trail to explore the mountain - 2 options available - short hike (30 minutes) or go all the way up - 3 hours. This trip, I did go all the way up and bumped into to the Colombian army - which is a good sign - this area is safe. I love this place.

3:) Popayan
By far the most dangerous option - but worth a trip to check it out. Although the road is fantastic, to venture here is to venture into unkown security areas as closeby there is some serious sh%t going on. If you really wan't to check out a colonial city I would recommend instead Cartago to the north (but that's not really a day-trip). Anyways - just be careful driving up - accidents are a daily affair on the road - typically caused by downhill traffic having tire blowouts - it can get nasty real quick. Leave Cali early in the morning - although it's only about 120 km, you'll get stuck behind some trucks all the way up. We headed up on a Tuesday with the goal of checking out the Indian market in nearby Sylvia - but that idea was nipped after checking out things in Popayan - too dangerous for a gringo right now (frustrating but learn to go with the flow when travelling about Colombia - never plan too far ahead - you've got to use common sense and listen to the locals). Just follow the signs to the "old city" and find your first parking spot - then head off on foot and explore the city. Take note of where you park - everything appears the same in this "white" city. Make your way via foot to the church overlooking the city - this is where they have the annual progression during semana santa - great photos abound. Grab lunch at the Dann hotel - food is not fantastic but the hotel is sweet - and quiet - a great break from the busy streets of Popayan.

-suerte

any questions just shoot

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Lionheart says on Dec 12, 2004, 23:11:

all crap tonight I spent 2 hours with my lawyer friend talking about this thread.

She is criminal defense lawyer in Cali and lives in danger every day. You posters have no clue how high the dangers are. She told me both sides are not true.

I will help her post her statement here, if she she doesn't do it herself. She was very pissed off of general statements made from both sides.

Basic rules we ageed on ... I will not venture out alone without her being with me until I am fluent in Spanish, no matter where I wish to go. I will not go out at night alone, never. I will not go to an address she hasn't verified for me.

I love this woman ... I love where she lives .. could I ilve anywhere else with these restrictions?

She knows how to survive in Cali, she is changing her profile to become visa specialist with other lawyers, we will keep you posted.

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calipro says on Dec 12, 2004, 23:37:

lionheart Why is your lawyer friend in danger everyday?

With all do respect I think your friend is a controll freak. I have never had any of my colombian friends give me that kind of advice.

I go out alone or with my 100lb caleña body guard every night I'm in Cali. If YOU can't do that there is no point in going IMHO.

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Atrevido says on Dec 13, 2004, 03:49:

Calipro I haven't either. The only incident I'm familiar with turned out to be fake. The guy hid out from his wife because he had money problems but in the mean time an agent from the embassy came to Cali to interview me since I knew the guy. He was adament that every American in Colombia even one week visitors register with the embassy. I finally did because I live here but most of us don't and I think the request is exagerated.

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kernow62 says on Dec 13, 2004, 04:59:

Many Colombians do seem overly concerned about the safety of foreigners. I know their concerns are for our own good, but they are a bit like mother hens.

It happens in the US too; ever talk to someone from a "bad area" they will play it up sometimes to show how tough they are.

I have not been to Cali so cannot comment on the safety or lack therof, but many folks in Bogotá are afraid to go there, is this because Cali has a bad reputation or because Bogotá is safer? I certainly met quite a few from Cali who had moved to Bogotá, perhaps because of safety concerns or more likely more jobs.

My tip, carry your "man purse" in front of you and grip it like grim death! :-)

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 13, 2004, 07:53:

Calipro--You have not heard???? Please I, personally know of 2 people on the noth side of Bogoa. The American husband of a Colombian woman was kidnapped while visiting his in-laws who live in Retiro. (Cl. 84 con 10). As it turned out, the doorman was believed to have turned information over to kidappers.
The the American was kidnapped when he and his Colombian wife were getting into their car. I also know of an engineer in Cali who was kidnapped whil on bussiness and instead of staying at one of the better hotels where there is good security, he stayed at the house on one of his coworkers. In some sense, I can't say I could blame him for that. She was a beautiful calena---with all the typical physical attributes of the territory. But if these are 2 instances that I know of......don't you think there are more. Besides, think about the logic in what you are saying. That is to say, that just because you do not know of any Americans that have been kidnapped in Colombia, it does not mean that it has not happened...

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 13, 2004, 08:05:

Lionheart: "She is changing her Profile" Can't you people listen to your foolish rhetoric? The mere fact that she has to change her profile, that in and of itself should tell you about how dangerous life can be for --- just a regular every day attorney. Have you ever heard of any American lawyers that change their profle because of fear of retribution by clients? I have never heard of such. In fact where I live in the US, people often promote their records as crime fighting state's or district attorneys when they want to run for the elected office of judge. Even lawyers who represent that Italian mafia don't have to run for cover when they lose a case. In Colombia, if you are a reporter and you write the wrong thing, you get death threats. Just ask the famous author Maria Duzan. And by the way, Colombia's most famous author, Gabriel Marquez....why isn't he living in his beloved Colombia?? Because, he loves tacos more than empanadas and arepa?? That's right, he has been living in Mexico for years. Tell me, how many reporters and just regular every day Colombians have sought assylum in other countries because of fear for their safety? Am I wrong?? Why don't you just call the immigration offices in Miami, New York, and other cities, and ask the public information officer how many individuals after arriving from Colombia on a tourist visa, within days go running to these offices asking for political assylum. I suppose they do this because life is so calm and peacefull in Colombia. Your Calena lawyer friend lives there. She has a family there. She probably has kids there. The point is, her life is there and leaving is not much of an option. Unless she marries you (assuming you're an American) she will not be able to live here legally for an indefinite period. The US does not give work visas to Colombian lawyers. Now, where do you compare that to an Americna who is looking to tour/vacation in a foreign country? Don't t you think the standards are a little different? Don't you think that the goals are different? Once again, I ask, if you are a holder of an American passoport, a passport which is welcome in more countries of the world without a visa--more than any other passport, why would you want to go to a country where the risk of danger, whether that danger is kidnapping or just common street crime, is higher than a majority of all the countries in the world? You, have a girlfriend there. That is a whole different story. But the person who started this thread simply asked if Cali was a safe place to visit/work. A person of this type should not, under any circumstances consider any city in Colombia to visit. Period. Latin American has many beautiful and much safer countries to visit.

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ColombianoX says on Dec 13, 2004, 09:20:

QUE VIVA CALI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gomezman5,

Gabriel Garcia Marquez was recently staying in Cartagena for an unknown length of time. He didn't move to Mexico because of the safety, considering it's the country with the second highest kidnapping rate in the world! I'm a US citizen who's been to Cali several times and I've never witnessed any danger there. I remember even staying out to three or four in the morning by myself and then taking a taxi to my relative's home. I also remember a frenchman who lived in Cali saying that to him it was a paradise. Cali is an awesome city, I would love to live there one day.

BTW, I didn't ask you for your biography. Perhaps with that "income which is much higher than the national average" you should go out and buy yourself a little humility.

ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Angel_Gabriel says on Dec 13, 2004, 09:21:

This thread can certainly put some "scare" for those visiting Cali.

I have had 4 personas already telling me about Cali being "dangerous" specially in the Feria time & to be very careful.

WOW thanks for looking out though!

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 13, 2004, 11:01:

ColombianoX--You raised the issue sir It was you that directly asked me if my statements about Colombia were due to my "Misfortunes" here. Since you raised the issue about the conditions of my life here, you invited that response. Don't make accusations or assessments about another, then not expect that other person to defend themselves. So there.

Now, I cannot tell you where Marquez is this very minute, but once again, you are factually incorrect. More asserions, and nothing to back them up with. That is a common trait of yours. Allow me to enlighten you. In 1981,the year he was awarded the French Legion of honor medal, Marquez returned to Colomia after visiting Castro. Upon his return, he began to have tremendous problems with the conservative government that was in power at that time. The Conservative party apparatus accused him of financing the M-19 (which he probably did considering his views and associates). Once again, he was forced to leave, and it was at that time that he asked for and recieved political assylum from Mexico. He maintains a home there (his principal residence) to this day. It is my understanding that he is very ill with lymphatic cancer. He occasionally visits Cartagena (the only truely safe Colombian city because of it's tourism) but he primarily lives in Mexico City. He also travel to L.A California, for medical treatment as needed. You see, when I make assertions, I back them up with facts. I try to avoid slick one liners that say
"Your wrong". You might want to consider doing the same.

Gomezman5

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 13, 2004, 11:09:

Tinto I would say with certinty it is for their safety. Every Colombian in the art (music) moves out of Colombia. No exceptions ! By the way, you fogot Carlos Vives. And uh..where does he live? Puerto Rico.

Isn't there a pattern here????? Also remember, when these people become rich and famous, I am sure they still visit Colombia, but with an armada of well trained highly paid american bodyguards that accompany them from the moment the leave the US unti the moment they return. I don't think there are many American tourists that could even come close to affording the type of protection that these people (Shakira, Sofia,, Juantes,etc.) could afford.

Gomezman5

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 13, 2004, 11:44:

Tinto It was only for a period of time, many years ago, when marquez was not allowed to be issued a visa to come here. If you will recall, Ernesto Samper, while he was president of Colombia, had his visa revoked too after revelations were made that he took 6 million US $ form the Cali cartel. It is my undersstanding that his visa was subsequently restored. Like Samper, Marquez had his visa restored,on a conditional basis which required him to seek permission from the US State Dept., each and every time he wished to enter. However, under Clinton, that permission requirement was removed given his physical condition (cancer) and it was presumed that he would have to continue to come to LA for treatment for his cancer. That makes sense, in that it is quite common for wealthy Mexican nationals to come here for medical treatment for serious conditons, given the supperiority, albeit costly medical care we can provide. LA ,and Houston, are 2 of the most common cities visited. Which leads to my final point. The fact that he sought treatment in LA for his condition, is further proof that he is living full time in Mexico and not Catagena like ColombianoX had asserted.

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calipro says on Dec 13, 2004, 11:54:

Two days to Cali... "I would say with certinty it is for their safety. Every Colombian in the art (music) moves out of Colombia. No exceptions ! By the way, you fogot Carlos Vives. And uh..where does he live? Puerto Rico."

Thank god I'm not rich or famous and I can still go down and party with the caleñas. I really feel sorry for the rich people that can't go.

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ColombianoX says on Dec 13, 2004, 12:10:

Gomezman5,

"Cartagena (the only truely safe Colombian city because of it's tourism)"

San Andres and Armenia are also pretty safe colombian cities.


"Every Colombian in the art (music) moves out of Colombia. No exceptions ! "

Wrong! Andrea Echeverri, the lead singer of rock band Aterciopelados, lives happily in Bogota. She says that living there actually inspires her to create her music. Singers Andres Cabas, Joe Arroyo, Diomedez Diaz, and Grupo Niche also live in Colombia. Many foreign actors are moving to Colombia, because Telemundo now co-produces (with colombian production companies) many of its hit telenovelas which are filmed in Colombia. Pacheco Gonzalez, the legendary colombian television personality who moved to Miami a few years ago, actually moved back to Colombia because he said he just missed Colombia too much. I just saw on Caracol that four professional Japanese basaball players went to play in Colombia's professional league. Oh, and guess who's spending his off season in Colombia too? Edgar Renteria!

People like Carlos Vives, Juanes, and Shakira spend most of their time in hotels and on airplanes because they are constantly on tour. All of them still own homes in Colombia and always make time to visit la Patria.

BTW, it's a shame that a Colombia-hater such as yourself happened to stumble across this site which was created to share the many positive things about Colombia. Perhaps you should go to the FARC's website and share your loathing of Colombia with them.


ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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YEP says on Dec 13, 2004, 12:15:

Echt / really Lionhart watch your steps/lingo ;-) Well what about a european poor but habby get together as they're planning in Col ;-)

------------------------------------------------------------------- Just another scandinavian getting ready to explore South America

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Lionheart says on Dec 13, 2004, 12:18:

mother hens Kernow62: Yes, from most of my talks with Colombianas they seem to have a very protective motherly instincts for foreigners. And I trust my lady's advice, it makes sense to me. Why take unnecessary risks before my Spanish is fairly fluent and I know my way around?

Calipro, maybe your girlfriends are still too young to have evolved into mother hens yet. Or they are so used to their environment that they don't give serious thoughts about it. The women I have mainly been talking to are mothers and over 35.

Tinto, I agree with you, this is a mute debate. Gomezman5's repeated hysteria doesn't help anybody here, it is just a scare tactic. His lengthly reply shows me only he didn't read my short post correctly and also doesn't follow other threads, otherwise he would understand my position and thoughts better, and those of other people here as well. In general the blasting of each others opinions is of no help at all.

Btw, Gomezman5 is dead wrong about the Mafia in Italy. They have killed many politicians, judges, lawyers, prosecutors etc in the past, I don't have enough information to comment about the past 10 years.

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caslug says on Dec 13, 2004, 12:37:

Gomez.. Most people that stumble/found this site kinda already made their decision to GOTO COL or have gone. So telling NOT TO GO is probably a waste a breath, BUT we would all appreciate safety tips.

Why go in the first place(your question Gomez)? everyone has differents reason to go. Some it's for the women other it's for the exciting of destination that's off the beaten track. Some people climb Mt. Everest(where several tourist died), travel to Russia(a few tourist got beat up/robbed), Cambodia, or other non-disney destination. If you want to play it 100% safe that's your choice, but for some travellers we like a little exciting in our travellers. Call us a little a crazy, it's like people going skydiving or bungee jumping. They know that something BAD can go wrong, but still do it for the thrill.

My first trip to CALI going to Avienda sexta, and my adrenline was pumping because i thought i would be robbed or kidnap right away. Exciting feeling it admit, of course nothing like that happen, and on my subsequent roaming around Cali, I felt more comfortable BUT never let my guard down. Made an effort NOT to look like a worthwhile target or took many safety precaution.

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elmodefoque says on Dec 13, 2004, 12:43:

I only have two words for guys like Gomez, CHICKEN S--T!
And I have one word for non Colombian that visit this country “BERRACOS�
I bet if that Gomez guy was living in NYC he would be shi---in bricks all the time. According to the news we are in constant danger of getting bomb or gas by Arabs terrorists. I work right in the freaking middle of Manhattan and live 5 minutes from work. Am I walking around in fear?, HELL NO!
A gringo tourist should be afraid to walk in the surrounding jungles of major Colombian cities as much as I should be afraid of ending up in a Republican Party meeting or getting lost in some southern states and end up in KKK territory.
One of the main reasons Marquez does not live in Colombia is that he hates the elite as much as I do and I fully understand his dislike in bumping into people like Gomez and others like him..
And don't get me started on the places I hang out in colombia cause you will crap your pants.

any colombianita willing to date me, IS UP TO NO GOOD

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ColombianoX says on Dec 13, 2004, 12:55:

Elmo,

Cómo me alegro verte en este tema, pana. Me parece muy feo que este Gomezman venga aquí a hablar de esa manera tan fea de Colombia, especialmente cuando él dice que allá nació! A veces los enemigos más grandes de Colombia son los mismos colombianos, y aquí tenemos un claro ejemplo. Pero cada vez que este desgraciado venga a pisotear la Patria, me encontrará listo para defenderla! Mi Colombia se respeta, carajo!!!!

ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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BxUnika says on Dec 13, 2004, 13:32:

Question for ColombianoX Ok, maybe you have answered this already, but if not, please do:

You are the self-proclaimed defender of Colombia and of all things Colombian. Being the case, why aren't you living in Colombia?

You remind me of the Puerto Ricans and Dominicans here in NYC who are always talking about how great Puerto Rico and DR are, yet would not move back if you paid them to.

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ColombianoX says on Dec 13, 2004, 13:39:

"You are the self-proclaimed defender of Colombia and of all things Colombian. Being the case, why aren't you living in Colombia?"

I'll be more than happy to anwer that. I do intend to move to Colombia when I finish school. My goal is to find work in some multinational company in Colombia and live happily ever after. And no, I don't defend "all things colombian", only the good things!

CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de l