Interesting Article: More Colombians Leave Despite Increased Economic Growth

Gomezman5 says on Oct 8, 2006, 01:40:

Of course it happens......it has ALWAYS happened! Why should a chemical engineer work in Colombia for $6000 a year, when he can work in Puerto Rico, (without having to learn English) for $75,000 a year. Or .... why should a physical therpist work in Barranquill for $5000 a year, when she can work here for $67,000 and having in hope patients of her own that yields her another $10,000 a year. BTW, I know both of these people very well.

I mean...is this supposed to be real news? BTW, this has nothing to do with Colombia and her security problems. It's all about $$. Isn't it always? In this nonsense about "brisk economic expansion" lol What a joke. Oh, I forgot about a hematologist here named Gomez. No relation however. He is the head of Hematology at mid sized suburban hospital. He lives about as well as a high level mafioso in Cali. You think he has ever given a thought about returning to Cali? Yea sure.

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jfsawatzky says on Oct 8, 2006, 04:55:

G5 When you mention physical therapist, I assume you mean physiotherapist (at least this is the Canadian term). A couple questions, as my gf is finishing her physiotherapist (fisiotherapia) degree, and will come to Canada next year (we hope), after we marry. I figure you are American (majority of people on pbh are), so some things will be different, but I am interested in the process where her degree and experience were evaluated.
I assume there are state boards that regulates the profession, like here, where there are provincial boards. Was her degree and experience deemed to be the equivalent to studies in the US? Was she required to take any additional courses, to make up for any short comings? Did she have much work experience when she came to the US, or was it just after she finished her degree? Depending on the state where you live, spanish may be an acceptable language (here in Canada, my gf will need to pass a test in English or French). Did your friend need to take a language test?
I do not know if you know the answers to these questions, so maybe I will send PM, and you can forward these questions to your friend along with my email.
Cheers

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bufalo says on Oct 8, 2006, 08:30:

Just wondering.....could this also just be a case of the rich getting richer? Here in Armenia, I see a huge economic boom, but I see it among the higher ups. Not too many lower-strata people I know are better off at all, some worse.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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miamimike says on Oct 8, 2006, 09:17:

jfsawatzky This issue has been discussed indepth here you need to use the search function on this site to see where it talks about her re-validating all her coursework here thru ann approved agency, taking the state boards-all in english btw--its all here! Its a Long Detailed process for a Medical Professional from Colombia to actally start working here! You won't do this in a year!

Avatar Legend: Bush "If any of you Reporters are wondering, it was a Size 10"

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Gomezman5 says on Oct 8, 2006, 10:02:

jfsawatzky......so whatg is your point? If I understand you correctly, you are making my point all the more. You are implying that above and beyond their education, a candidate will have to overcome all kinds of other barriers to live obtain licensure here in the US. That only demonstrates how all the more that potential candidates want to leave Colombia for an opportunity to work here.

First, in the US, they are in fact called "Physical Therapists" and NOT physiotherapists. Next, of course they have to pass a NATIONAL BOARD. They actual licensure is done state by state, with each state setting its own requirements to be licensed. Among those requirements is proficiency in English which is determined by what your score is on the TOEFL and TESL exams. I did not say that they can just get on a plane and come here. Lastly, they need to obtain the proper work visa , and that can only be done by finding a recruiter/employer that will sponsor them which means actually employ them.

We have gotten far afield here though. My entire point was to say that when a person is able to leave Colombia, and work here, (in the US and elsewhere) they often do so, assuming they can meet all the other prerequisties. BTW, as I had posted here some time ago, when my friend that I am talking about above went to Cali and Bogota to have a forum for Colombian PTs to come here, after advertising in the appropriate places, she expected 50 girls or so to attend the forum in each city, instead, a few hundred attended. She was shocked. But you know how many qualified? Just a few because they had to know English.

And lastly, Mike is correct, Mike is the resident health care expert here, and he is familiar with most of the health related posts. Before contacting him however, Google this site and you will find many instances of threads where this matter is discussed quite a bit.

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miamimike says on Oct 9, 2006, 02:00:

Rubito, I personally haven't heard of many Professional class Colombians going back to Col from either Canada, the USA or Spain. I suppose there are those who returned but I know of no poll that shows exact numbers or even if such a poll was conducted.I have noticed many still maintain a house/condo in Col even though they are here and say they aren't going returning.

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aztec says on Oct 9, 2006, 03:55:

The Colombian Government does not... ...make it easy for a Colombian with resources to return home. Ran into problems when attempting to purchase an apartment for the Colombian wife. Also problems when returning with your auto and furniture.

Basically one has to return almost as empty handed as when he/she left!

In fairness, I believe they are aware of the difficulties and are looking at ways of making accommodation for easier transition. (See Panama)

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Gomezman5 says on Oct 9, 2006, 07:50:

DonGringo said it all. "Colombia is a great place as long as you are in the upper estrata and have money then the world turns for you as it does for these dual nationals. If you don't have money then it is better to leave cause getting the world to turn for you is nearly impossible here."

That's exactly the point. You can't put a spin on this. In the case of my friend, the physical therapist, her mother worked here (illegaly) in Baltimore as a live in maid/nanny for 8 years, all the while sending money home so that her daughter could go to a private high school and and University where she studied PT and learned English. This girl is Barranquillera that came from the poor part of BAQ. The family had a plan. The mother did the same for her son who is working in Madrid as a physician. Money isn't everything of course, but it is almost everything when you are talking about the ability to earn up to 20 TWENTY times what you are earning in Colombia. Besides, it is not as if the US is not a nice place to live. It's a win win situation for the person who can be fortunate enough to win such an opportunity.

And it is not just poor people by the way. Many wealthy Colombians, send their kid here for school, or job opportunities that simply are not available in Col. Look, Gringos can yell all they want about how great life is in Colombia. But, how many of them are going over there without USD $? They're not going there with empty pockets thinking they can get a job and life will be great. If they are, they're dumber than a box of rocks and they're in for a rude awakening. Now I can see the scenario when a grino with a margingal amount of money may want to live in Colombia, because his money (USD) will go further there than it is does here in the US. But, these are rare....very rare exceptions. There are far safer countried to live in where you can accomplish the same without the threats to your own safety. Mexico, Costa Rica, and Panama each, have more gringos than Colombia will ever have ....at least in my lifetime.

And Aztec, honestly, if a Colombia living here in the US maintains his citizenship, as many of them do, he has no problem returning. Many here still own real estate in Colombia and have family living in it or they rent it out to others. While working here, most of them, at least in the back of their mind, have dreams of returning to Colombia upon retirement. It never really happens for a variety of reasons. You get so used to the comforts and conveniences here. Also, when you spend a lifetime somewhere, all the institutions and people that have made your life meaningful are where you are living, not back in the "old country". You cannot just "up and go" leaving life long friends, and family behind. You are never going to convince your US born children that Colombia is the place to live. OK, there are exceptions, but let us be realistic here. Third, as in my case, I have on going medical conditions that require my to take medications and see physicians from time to time. I have top of the line US health care insurance that could never be duplicated in Colombia for my cost as a member of a group. I have accesst to the best hosptials in Chicago and the country for that matter. I'm not the only one who is fortunate to be in this position.

Sure, we go back to visit. And we enjoy every moment of are stay. Sometimes, as I did in 1994, our stays are extended ones, but that's about it.

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miamimike says on Oct 9, 2006, 10:17:

Gomezman, On your health Insurance, you are getting to be one of the privledged few and here is what I mean. Many Americans don't have access to the best hospitals as well as not having good group health insurance at a reasonable price. .Last Count now has around 50,000,000(million)Americans with NO health Insurance at all; many more citizens are under-insured currently, meaning many small procedures are NOT covered or there are high co-payments. Not to mention the trend for many Privately insured non group americans with those private health accounts are catastrophic in nature meaning unless you are really sick with cancer or some other grave disease, you will foot the bill(sprained ankle, broken finger ect)even those these non life threatening illnesses may run you $2,000 to $10,000 or more. Here in Miami dade county the Un-insured count is up to 600,000 without insurance of any kind. Last week General Motors announced something like 15 plants being shuttered so 1000s more soon without insurance of any type. Count your lucky stars you have good insurance as many here in the US do not and more go without coverage every day. Thats one reason more Americans are going Overseas for medical procedures encouraged by their US Based Health Insurance to do just this.Thats why I went to Bogota for my Dental Work AND my US Based Health Insurance at the time, Mail Handlers(same insurance the mailmen have)payed for my work in Colombia. On 20/20 a few weeks ago it had a special on India Medical Care amd it said in the future, many US Insurance companies will look at the option to send patients offshore.I mean just look at US Dentists, who could afford their Sky high rates on a McDonald's salary? You are right in your statement, you are not the only one who is fortunate enough to have Top Rated health Insurance and access to the best hospitals but people like you one day will be in the Minority here in the USA. Here in Miami(probably about the same in Chicago)if you had to purchase Top Rated Health Insurance(non group)(say blue cross blue shield major medical)at your age (40s) with as you mentioned, Pre-existing conditions that require medications, you would pay a minimum of $900 monthly BUT with pre-existing conditions such as High blood pressure or Diabtes, in all probability, you could NOT even buy this expensive insurnace. If you have pre-existing conditions, the companies simply do NOT want you at any price. You are Un-Insurable! This is one of the reasons there has been so many programs recently on Medical Care abroad in foreign countries, medical care(insurance)is beyond the reach of many Citizens here. You can't Colombians for putting off medical procedures here in the USA until they can get back to Colombia where it can be performed at a reasonable cost. A friend(colombian) went back to Manizales recently for a Hernia repair recently, it cost $450 Total! Here in the USA, this same procedure would have been over $15,000! Count your lucky stars, you are in a Minority status whether you know it or not,,,,

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megustamuchisimo says on Oct 9, 2006, 10:56:

You got it exactly, bufalo The economic growth is almost 100% the rich getting richer. Colombia is not set up to give opportunites of any kind to anyone except those who are already priveleged. Unlike in the US and Europe and Asia, education doesn't do it...connections, and only conncections, can land you a decent salary. Many smart and hardworking Colombians have no chance for a decent future, and if they don't already have VISAs for entereing the US, they're not likely to get those either, since we only want rich Colombians coming to hang out on our gold-paved streets.

At the same time, many children (probably, most children) of the Colombian upper classes escape as soon as possible to the US, Canada, Europe, ostensibly for higher education, but then they get offered jobs, visas, and eventually never return. The sad thing is that these elite don't ever realize that it is this very refusal to let a middle class develop that creates the situation Colombia finds itself in, where anyone who can find a way, rich or poor, will to try to escape.

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juancegomez says on Oct 9, 2006, 11:10:

megustamuchisimo "The economic growth is almost 100% the rich getting richer."

Care to provide a source for that exaggerated %? I don't question that the rich are getting richer and that may take up much of the growth, but "almost 100%" is a very different thing.

I also think that you are being a bit too absolutist about the rest of your argument. That's often the case, but not always, so saying that "connections, and only conncections, can land you a decent salary" is an exaggeration.

Connections will always tend to get you a decent salary, but you *can* get one even without connections. Not easily, no, but not impossibly either. Let's not go from one extreme to another, please.

As for people leaving the country...more people are leaving than in 2003, but still way less than before 2003. So the headline is only true if you only look at the last year or two, not if you go back more than 3 years.

Something I posted over at P&W when the numbers came out, which puts the figures in context:

"The Print Edition of El Tiempo shows this on its front page:

364.000 left in 2001 and 317.000 in 2002 alone.

In other words, the 197.000 that left Colombia in 2005 and the 220.000 for 2006 (up to June) are [still] considerably better numbers.

More than the 159.000 that left in 2003, of course, but still a lot less than numbers in previous years. There's still a big problem, we have a war here after all, but it's at least a smaller amount of displacement.

It should also be mentioned that these people don't necessarily leave because of the economy alone, though that's certainly one of the factors. Employment's still rather fragile and unemployment remains a real problem, regardless of the economy's evident recovery."

The economy can recover without necessarily improving employment opportunities across the board, much less resolving all of its other problems.

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Gomezman5 says on Oct 9, 2006, 11:42:

Mike I agree with everything you said I do count my lucky stars. All of them. That is why people like me could never move to Colombia. I could not get anything close to the level of care, or the drugs, for what I pay here. Even generic medicine in Colombia, some of which is good, much of which is not, would cost me more than a name brand drug that I pay for here.

I can fully understand why people are going abroad for their medical and dental care. I remember when I first met you how you went to one of the best dental clinics on the north side of Bogota, where you had comprehensive dental work done for about 3K, and if you were to have the same work done in Miami, it would have cost you 4 or 5 times that amount.

I don't know what the answer to this problem is here. It is a very serious one for sure though. It's funny Mike, go to the El Paso Ciudaud border, and as soon as you cross the border into Mexico, you have dental offices all over the place to accomoate Americans who cannot affor to get needed dental work here......Sad if you ask me.

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. says on Oct 9, 2006, 13:16:

mmm... I agree with Juancgomez. there is not need for connection, it is me and just me. How many times I have said to my friends....lets set up a business, all of them say....yes man, lets do it! then no one is able because all of them say they need money to set it up, then I say, well, lets set up a fund between all of us for two years, they say....yes man, lets do it and in the end of the day no one does it but spend their money in expensive clothes, expensive night clubs, expensive food and showing off, then they blame the stupid government. It is possible to get anything we want, anything, I got very good jobs while I was in Colombia, BIC, Standard Chartered Bank and Comcel and I am not talking about customer service and bad paid jobs like that, I am talking about good jobs. When my friends used to ask me how could I get those jobs, my answer was....it is just to print out 100 CVs and take them to every single place you think you can get a good job, despite the fact I told them what I used to do, they did not bother about! Then, it is not the Colombian situation, it is our personal situation, we Colombian people like blaming the others, our problems are because of others and not because of ourselves, We were raised by parent who taught us that we have to work for others, we have to look for a job and stay there for ever until you get old and get a pension, they do not encourage their children to set up their own business, they do not teach then that is more interesting to create jobs than to fill vacancies, actually, the majority of Colombians who live in another country, they work for some one else, there are so few who are creating jobs. I am one of the mediocre one who gave up Colombia to work for some one else in somewhere else. We have not realised that to create economy, we have to create jobs, and we have to start believing that Colombia is a group of people and not only me then we will create jobs. We go away not because of the economy of the country, no because of the violence, it is because we are cowards, we do not want to face the problem, we just want to run away. I am one of those cowards who got everything in another country, I am an accountant in UK, fine I got the money, fine I got a nice way of live, but in the end of the day it was not me, I am just profiting of some one else hard work, that one who fought for his (her) country to make it big and great.

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Gomezman5 says on Oct 9, 2006, 13:43:

Rubito "I will most probably be doing better than here"

Where is here?

If you are in Colombia, and you are trying to say that "you will do beter" (I assume financial) in Colombia than in the US, than surely you know that you are either misinformed, and have not read any of the hundreds of threads on this site that have directly spoken to this issue, or you have some very unique talent that is in abundance in the US, but is higly marketable in Colombia.

If you are saying you want to live there for personal reasons, that is one thing, but if you think employment opportunities as well as compensation is better there, than you have more reading to do before you quit your job in the US, Europe, or in a country similarly situated.

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miamimike says on Oct 9, 2006, 17:18:

Gomezman, It was a Few Years Ago when I first met You I can fully understand why people are going abroad for their medical and dental care. I remember when I first met you how you went to one of the best dental clinics on the north side of Bogota, where you had comprehensive dental work done for about 3K, and if you were to have the same work done in Miami, it would have cost you 4 or 5 times that amount.

I don't know what the answer to this problem is here. It is a very serious one for sure though. It's funny Mike, go to the El Paso Ciudaud border, and as soon as you cross the border into Mexico, you have dental offices all over the place to accomoate Americans who cannot affor to get needed dental work here......Sad if you ask me.
==================================================================

I had just finished my Dental Work In Bogota and wrote a short Travel Article on my experience with Dental Procedures In Bogota in IL magazine when I happened upon this Website. International Living paid me $75 for the article, what a surprise that was to see a Check for $75! I reposted the article here shortly afterwards but I don't know if its still here; last time I looked, it was not, swallowed in cyberspace. BTW, The Dental Work I had done in Bogota for $1800 would have cost anywhere from $10,000 to $13,000, depending on which of the 3 Dentists I would have went to. Saved a bundle and received great work to boot.

Avatar Legend: Bush "If any of you Reporters are wondering, it was a Size 10"

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caslug says on Oct 9, 2006, 22:56:

isn't another factor is post 9/11.. it's HARDER for foreigners to get visa to the US.. so there's less people that are able to come and overstay now.. than it was before..

i remember talking w/ an american in cali that use to use the marriage agency alot.. he said that pre-9/11, the marriage agency had brisk business, because guys could get visa(tourist/finance/wife) EASIER than post-9/11.. AFTER 9/11.. lots of agency went belly-up, because it became more work/paperwork and little longer to get the neccesary visa..

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cali373 says on Oct 10, 2006, 07:53:

juanpbadillo What is a CV?

Smile if you are a thinker!

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jfsawatzky says on Oct 10, 2006, 16:10:

G5...

I guess I did not make myself clear on the context of my post within the thread , but as soon as I saw 'physical therapist' and 'barranquilla' in your post, I thought to myself... 'YES!!', cause I have been trying to find more detailed info regarding phyiscal therapy for some time, as opposed to general info... Anyway, I was not commenting on the subject of original post (sorry), rather I was interested in your comments about your friend who had gone through a similar situation to which my gf will be going through...That is, I wanted more information based on the first hand experience of your friend, as opposed to general statements about the process, of someone who is/was in a similar position as my gf... ooppsss my fiance. Also, I was trying to differentiate /compare the process in Canada vs the US (which probably confused more people... I am Canadian by the way ;) )

For example, concerning your friends education and degree, which I assume is from Colombia... what percentage of her coursework / clinical work was deemed to be equivalent when compared to an American degree when it was evaluated? How many years experience did she have before coming to the US? You also mentioned she worked in Baranquilla... did she also study in Barranquilla? ( My fiance is finishing here degree at simon bolivar uni in barraqnuilla)...so your friends experience maybe provide invaluable insight for my gf (especially since she appears to have some sort of recruitment experience)

The process to become licensed in Canada and the US appears to be very similar, but of course there will be differences (for example some states may accept spanish), so any information must be considered with potential differences in mind. However, any background info is better than none, even if it is from a different country or state. I have contacted the provincial board here, but they are unable to estimate the education equivalency, as they say it needs be evaluated on an indiviadual basis (and this is fair enough... but can they not give a ball park figure, based upon others from the same country ie colombia??)

Some information I have already gathered from this forum, and other sources, but as far as I can remember, there has been nothing detailed and specific to physio / physical therapy, (I have read virtually all the posts on pbh of interest, back to the start of the site, but I do not recall anything specific to physio/physical therapists... although I need to do a more exhaustive search, (all i need now are to find the right search terms ;) ).

All of this is to say that I would like you to pose these questions to your friend, or, if you and your friend are comfortable with the idea, perhaps you could forward her email to me, so that I could contact her (although it might be better to give her a 'heads up').

By the way, I just finished reading the latest threads, and a couple of the questions / assumptions I asked, have been answered, but your friends experience sounds even more valuable now that I know more of her background.

cheers

jf

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jfsawatzky says on Oct 10, 2006, 16:12:

Miamimike MiamiMike...

As I stated to G5, I did not explain myself well, nor ask specific questions, and it is the details that I am most interested in. I wanted to know the real life experience of anyone who have gone through the process, or a similar process to what my gf will go through. Obviously, I realize there are many factors involved, and any infomation will be relative to the individual and state involved, but any information is better than no information.

I have been following this forum (among others) for about 8 monthes, and I have even read all the posts of interest back to the start of the forum. Now, to be honest, I have not performed an exhaustive search on the specifics (ie physio / physical therapy) ... but as far as I know, while there have been general discussions on the process required for foreign trained professionals to become certified in the US, there has not been a detailed discussion regarding the personal experiences from someone who has completed the process. And this is the kind of info I elluded to in my previous post, although I did not specify I wanted G5 to ask his friend these questions, or if I could contact his friend myself...Again, the reason for this is that I would like to be able to pass on some credible info to my gf, as she will be going through a similar process, although it will be in Canada.

cheers

jf

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aztec says on Oct 10, 2006, 16:31:

Cv "What is a CV?" By cali373

A CV generally refers to a Curriculum Vitae. Is is similar to an expanded resume. Most often used in Academe and includes Research articles, Service and Instructional activities.

In the United States, a curriculum vitae is used primarily when applying for academic, education, scientific or research positions.

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 11, 2006, 22:31:

It's a lot rougher for Colombians in Canada than the US. We were just in Montreal and we met with one of my wife's friends who had married a guy from Laval. I felt sorry for her since it seemed that her life was so much bleaker than my wife's. Linguistic difficulties and cultural problems galore.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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miamimike says on Oct 12, 2006, 03:45:

jfsawatzky, its been discussed to death here The process is pretty much the same for Canada as it is here for the USA. BTW, NO states(as you mention) accept Spanish(or any other langauge for that matter) here in the USA, you need to have everything Officially translated into English. You have to have your courses Officially Evaluated(there is a state approved private agency here in south miami,known as the "Joseph smiley agency")that performs this service(cost $300-$500). When all this is done, you send the package to Tallahassee(Board of Professional Licensure and Regulation) After they have reviewed everything and determine you meet all the Prerequisites, they mail you your Eligibility to sit for your State Licensing boards test. Before you can do this, you must satisfy all the Florida state requirements for the Educational requirements in your degree field--this agency will tell you what courses you are lacking. If any of the courses from the Colombia University do not transfer here, you must return to school here to satisfy the course requirements. BTW if any science courses(for example, anatomy, microbiology) are over 10 years old in Florida, you must repeat them--they will Not accept them here in Florida or most other state licensing either. This is the same for us here in the USA, science courses 10 years old or older will not transfer. Some states here limit these to 5 years. All States more or less follow this same pattern. This a Bitch to put it mildly but it is the law and they would scrutinize this very closely. We have many Canadian Licensed medical professionals from Canada that work temporarily here in the USA(Nurses, PTs, RTs) and obtain a temporary license no problem. That is why I am telling you this, I work in the Medical field here in Miami btw so I am telling you this from actual practical experience. I took a Nurse(colombian)to the South Miami agency to have her courses re-evaluated and officially translated so I am very familiar with the process. If this Colombian Nurse ever receives her License here in Florida, she could transfer to work in Canada fairly easy. Canada, as here in the USA, has a critical nursing shortage so they aren't too hard on them but still make the applicants adhere closely to the Law. There is NOT such a drastic shortage with Physical Theraphists as the Re-imbursement laws changed a few years back so this drastcally reduced the demand for PTs. This Colombian Nurse I know first had to start studying English to enable her to converse at the Technical Level and also to write at the same level. She is still studying, this was 2 years ago. Its a long road so someone should not downplay this process into an easy 6 month ordeal or they will be disappointed with the time restraints. I am telling you the truth not to discourage your Novia but to realistcally assess the process. By the same token another Friend(colombian born) who is a Nurse here(miami) with a Bachelor's Degree from the U of Miami(they, Nurses educated here, don't come any more highly regarded then from this University)went to return home to Bogota to help her elderly parents. She wanted to work in Bogota as a Nurse. She has over 10 years experience in ICU at Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami, She is Fully Bi-lingual in Spanish and english-she dominates boths langauges. She has a Teaching Degree from the U de Los Andes(if I remember right)along with her Miami Nursing Degree. When she went to transfer back to Bogota and evaluate her US Nursing degree, they gave her such a hard time with all the paperwork, she gave up on the Idea. With all her experience and US AND Colombian degrees, I would have thought in Colombia, they would have welcomed her with open Arms. WRONG, Big Long Process. This is the process your Novia will be looking at, hope this helps. The Only Nationality receiving a Break(and its a huge one)are medical professionals from Cuba, all they need are the course translations, the state of Florida practically accepts all the courses at face value and lets them sit for the Florida state boards. Many time is this a disaster because their English is not up to speed but after taking the Test a half-dozen times they finally pass. At other times, due to questionable clinical techniques, many question whether some Cubans even were in the Medical field(in cuba) because they appear to be very lacking in practical applied clinical knowledge, so maybe they borrowed or bought a degree and transcripts and brought them here to the USA. The fact we have no formal relations with Cuba makes it imposible to verify they even went to school in Cuba whereas in a country as Colombia, they(florida state boards) actually phone the school in Colombia and verify work experience. The Cubans get a free ride on this process,,,The USA should require(for patient safety) all Medical Professionals Educated from Foreign countries, to take a Practical Clinical Test before they can sit for the state boards in the state in which they desire to practice. Hopefully they will do this some day,,,

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