Ingrid Betancourt - WHY?

Lisa Zee says on Jul 7, 2008, 21:23:

La nueva �ngrid paralizó al país. Sin rabia, dulce y sin una gota de amargura. Ha logrado con su dignidad lo que no ha logrado con las armas ningún revolucionario en la violenta historia de Colombia: conquistar el corazón y la mente de su pueblo. Cuando �ngrid apareció, el país se estremeció. Pero cuando habló, lo doblegó. Después de seis años de selva, humillación y enfermedades, volvió una mujer universal y con una admirable fortaleza moral. Desde sus primeras palabras, cuando todavía el mundo estaba en shock por la noticia, �ngrid mostró su grandeza política.

Semana 7/7/08

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bamacellist says on Jul 7, 2008, 21:51:

"joyride in the countryside"

Her decision to go could be said to have been stupid or foolhardy, based on the fact the situation was so obviously dangerous and it seems everyone warned her bluntly not to go. It could be called naive if she had decided her purpose was so great she expected the Farc to respect it. It could also be viewed as the courageous act of a person determined not to cower before the threats of terror - the action of someone very much made of presidential material.

In reality, she could only choose to go or not go and it is the actions of the Farc that mostly determine how we view it today.

If you're not sure of my meaning, think about this: What is most of the world saying about Uribe's decision to approve this rescue mission? What would the world be sayng if it had failed? Uribe decided to go; it was a very brave and very presidential thing to do. It would still have been that even if it had failed, but the world would probably refuse to recognize it. There may be something of that same unfairness in judging her about her decision to go, too. Something to think about, anyway.

"The future is much like the present, only longer."

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jul 8, 2008, 07:18:

Yes, Bamacellist, that's how I see it too.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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dwmte7 says on Jul 8, 2008, 07:42:

the fact she went into the selva is a decision wholly hers. it's damn sure not up to me nor my opinion. nor do i hold it against her. the fact that her staff went along for the ride seems a bit questionable.

even her comments since her liberation...although some leave a bit to be desired...i, too, have stuck my foot in my mouth. i'm that forgiving to her. i can find forgiveness for myself.

what's next, who knows. i wish her well. but now, it's time to, in essence, forget about those who are free, and work on freeing those who aren't. if farc gets in the way and there's blood letting, sorry, ingrid, wars hell and folks get hurt and die. they knew the price when they bought their ticket. i've spent way too much time in war zones around the world and the only thing that gets it over, is getting it over.

dwmte

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Mononoke28 says on Jul 8, 2008, 09:08:

I think she still has a long way to go to prove herself politically. The fact that she was held captive does not mean she is qualified to be president of Colombia, she may win the simpathy vote but that isn't worth much. I also don't agree in that she wants to focus more on the social problems of our country before dealing with violent groups like the FARC, ELN and the cartels. I believe that people suffer from the atrocities these groups cause and that many are the product of these crimes. If you attack poverty and social issues first, it will give these groups the time and resources to get stronger. It's a vicious cycle.

I'm with Uribe on this one, get rid off these terrorists first and try to fix the social problems on the side. But you can't chew and talk at the same time, it's impossible to do both, and do them well.

Diana

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usagringo says on Jul 8, 2008, 09:34:

Ask her children if they would like their mother to repeat her "as you say" courageous act of a person determined not to cower before the threats of terror, or better yet ask the families of dead soldiers if they felt it was an act of courageous or "again as you stated "Her decision to go could be said to have been stupid or foolhardy, based on the fact the situation was so obviously dangerous and it seems everyone warned her bluntly not to go." You may think it noble to stand up for her actions but we all need to realize that her actions to travel to a known unsafe zone, after repeatedly being warned she would be kidnapped, lead to her family, friends and employees suffering for those same years of captivity in the FARC hands. I'm sure given those same warnings today she would this time see the value of heeding said warning, as she is now a HIGHER level target.
Your words - If you're not sure of my meaning, think about this:
After serving in two war zones this old dog knows it is neither stupid or a courageous act to heed the advice of wisdom and not risk your life or others lives unnecessarily.
I do admire her courageousness, as the following will point out and show that she heeded warnings to her family, which we can all agree would not be considered stupid or courageous, just plain smart and the right thing to do.
“Ingrid began receiving death threats in 1996, as she was pursuing her campaign against Samper. One arrived in a crude letter in June 1996, with a warning that her family would pay a price for her actions. Inside the envelope was graphic documentation of what that threat might mean.
"There was a Polaroid of the body of a child, torn apart," she told me in one of our conversations. I asked if she meant that the photo had been torn apart. "No," she said. "The child was torn apart."
She evacuated her children from Colombia the day after she received that letter.
All I have tried to say is this was only MY, I repeat, MY, opinion, that not following sound and good advice should not be seen as plus when possibility running for the office of President of Colombia.



Remember

be nice says the monkey!

Be the first to stop stupidy by not added yours to mine if you think mine are!

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Albatross says on Jul 8, 2008, 09:37:

All this talk about Ingrid as a hero, ect, reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Bart falls into a well and the townspeople all feel sorry for him and after awhile start calling him a hero.

Lisa thinks it's ridiculous and asks "But why is he a hero ?"
Homer incredulously replies "'Because he fell into a well and can't get out !"

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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usagringo says on Jul 8, 2008, 09:45:

Burp from Ingrid Betancourt in the Chicago Sun Times Newspaper:

‘‘I think I have to stay here (In France). From here I can contribute much more,’’ said Betancourt, who has previously said that she plans to ultimately live in Colombia. She speculated that ‘‘imprudence’’ could have contributed to the kidnapping and said, ‘‘I made my family suffer a lot.’’

Maybe knowing what a coup it would be to be recaptured by FARC led to this decision?????
For now I would agree whole heartly with this move.

Be the first to stop stupidy by not added yours to mine if you think mine are!

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Lisa Zee says on Jul 8, 2008, 10:11:

She should stay in France and enjoy her life, stay out of the media and have a normal life.

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bamacellist says on Jul 8, 2008, 10:36:

I am not supporting the notion that she is a hero for having been kidnapped or that this experience has much bearing on her qualifications to be president, apart from what she tells us she learned during this time. I am equally uncharmed by the hostility and cynicism shown by some of her detractors. Her decision certainly led to a lot of awful cosequences for a lot of people, not least for herself, but I am not so sure it's fair to judge that decision quite as harshly or so snidely as is often done.

As far as heeding advise not to go, not to stay, don't do this, don't do that... There are many in Colombia in public office who have received threats from one source or another. How many people were murdered campaigning in the elections last fall? These threats are made to people in the private sector as well. The threats are not idle. People continue to do these jobs as others fall and still others flee. Somebody has to do this work. Somebody has to defy the terror. What would happen if they didn't? Who decides if, when and how they do or don't?

"The future is much like the present, only longer."

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slguy says on Jul 8, 2008, 11:29:

It's one thing to stand up to terrorists.

It's another one altogether to ignore EVERY bit of well-thought advice, and stupidly put yourself in harm's way, for want of anything except belief in one's own divinity.

As was mentioned earlier- how many lives were lost by the military due to this idiotic decision? How many potential military operations were not accomplished, for fear of Ingrid's life?

Frankly, I hope she stays in France and keeps her big yap shut. The French deserve her. ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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huskie says on Jul 8, 2008, 11:33:

HERE HERE, I agree! Fringrid out of Colombia!!!!!
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

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dwmte7 says on Jul 8, 2008, 12:22:

what ever decisions she makes from here, on in. i pray that she thinks deeply and thoroughly over those decisions---what ever they are, as to what will be the outcome, who will be effected, what will be gained etc. thus sparing unnecessary suffering on her family, peoples in the public domain and those in govt and the military faced with protectecting her and others.

i also wish her and her family well.

dwmte

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pavo says on Jul 8, 2008, 12:41:

This whole run to France ordeal will hopefully come back to bite her when she tries to run for office. Colombia does not need a president who is afraid of retaliation.

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dwmte7 says on Jul 8, 2008, 12:53:

wooooah....load words for one who didn't spend the last six years in captivity. what ever high points or shortcomings mrs. betancourt may have....going away, having time alone and private with her family, hardly qualifies her for ..."afraid of retaliation". proof's in the pudding, sir. speak so when you've undergone something similar.

dwmte

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pavo says on Jul 8, 2008, 13:03:

Tour in Nam work for you?

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pavo says on Jul 8, 2008, 13:22:

And why are my words loaded? I have no problem saying that I do not want her as our president. Unfortunately I believe she has a shot at the office.

All political animals are fair game. She has not said politics are off the table and her comments towards Uribe this morning show she is very much in the game. Why is she criticizing Uribe already? And what about the march she is not going to return to Colombia to attend. Aren't their 700 unfortunate soles still in the jungle. If she desires a political life in Colombia, then she needs to come back to Colombia and fight for the liberation of her compatriots. Attending Senate lunches in France rubs me the wrong way. Sorry if you disagree DWMTE7.

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billyb says on Jul 8, 2008, 13:26:

What did she say this morning about uribe? can you post a link? Thanks.

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pavo says on Jul 8, 2008, 13:43:

http://www.eltiempo.com/colombia/politica/2008-07-08/mitigar-su-lengua...

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Mononoke28 says on Jul 8, 2008, 13:45:

I say that if everybody is behind her and telling her she should be the next president of Colombia only because she was a politician who was kidnapped for years, then everyone else who was kidnapped should qualify as well. It makes no sense.

Diana

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pavo says on Jul 8, 2008, 14:00:

I

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usagringo says on Jul 8, 2008, 15:23:

bamacellist - your comments remind me of an old Colombian adage, don't go to someone house without bread under your arm, in other words you didn’t bring anything to this (table) forum. Your comments wafer from making little common sense to nonsense, But to add anymore to your spill would not advance this forum on her actions before and after her kidnapping which would make for her being President of Colombia. I’m not cold hearted and believe me when I say I take nothing away from her, she seems to have remained stable during her ordeal but this would not allow me to support her actions during these times for President of Colombia. Reading the comments backs up my comment earlier about the majority of Colombians, they are saying they can’t see the WHY either.

bamacellist Quote:-� People continue to do these jobs as others fall and still others flee.

Ingrid Betancourt Quote:-‘‘I think I have to stay here (In France). From here I can contribute much more,’’

and you where saying????


Chilean President Michelle Bachelet is promising to nominate Ingrid Betancourt for Nobel Peace Prize; I guess that’s another forum and another big –WHY?????

Be the first to stop stupidy by not added yours to mine if you think mine are!

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bamacellist says on Jul 8, 2008, 15:43:

I'm so sorry my point eluded you.

Yes, there are topics commenting on the silliness of the effort promoting her for a Nobel Peace Prize. I started one of them. http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/presidenta-de-chile-promover-a-i...

"The future is much like the present, only longer."

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usagringo says on Jul 8, 2008, 15:47:

Well thank you bamacellist for agreeing with me that you have no point or is it eluding me again and everyone else here.

Be the first to stop stupidy by not added yours to mine if you think mine are!

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usagringo says on Jul 8, 2008, 15:55:

You know what I feel bad for using your God given right to your opinion - the very same thing I desired in starting this forum, for that I truly ask for your understanding. I 'm sorry

Be the first to stop stupidy by not added yours to mine if you think mine are!

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MaFe says on Jul 8, 2008, 15:59:

Mononoke28 says on Jul 8 (today): flag

I think she still has a long way to go to prove herself politically. The fact that she was held captive does not mean she is qualified to be president of Colombia, \


VERY WELL SAID!!

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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usagringo says on Jul 8, 2008, 16:00:

Everyone here has a right to disagree without people like me trying to make use of thier words in the wrong way. I'm not saying we can disagree and comment to that fact but not to try to make someone look foolish, that's what I'm why I said I was sorry.
.

Be the first to stop stupidy by not added yours to mine if you think mine are!

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dwmte7 says on Jul 8, 2008, 16:32:

pavo...i misspelled 'loud'. i'm an not mrs. betancourt's defender and on many of your points i would have to agree. her comments about owing so much to france just burned a hole in me and my folks in envigado were really set back.

however, once again, i felt and i still do, the comment that she is afraid of retaliation was unwarranted. shit after 6 years out there, i'd want to get away, anywhere, far, and just enjoy my family.

after a couple of days in eastern antioquia, i'm always ready to lay low. it's a tough place and noone ever had chains on my ass nor neck..

dwmte

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dwmte7 says on Jul 8, 2008, 16:43:

oh, as for nam, did my time, 61-63,,,that didn't compare with being in chains. too, i lucked out and pulled the long straw and didn't have to sleep and eat shit in the killing fields. what i said above, i'll say again...those are loud words without compassion.

on the point of those still held captive NOW THERE IS AN ISSUE OF VALUE. forget those who've been freed. there are hundreds who have not. and it is towards them we should direct our umbrage and energy. not over some woman who for what ever her motives, is now free and out of the country. if she runs for office and you're so inclined, vote for her, if not, don't. that's how simple it is. lucha sobre this bullshit is a waste of both our time.

dwmte

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MitchAlvarez says on Jul 8, 2008, 21:27:

I think she is strong, courageous, a good mother, and someone who needs time to get back completely into her life.

But president? Absolutely not. Especially not with all the crap i hear she i saying now.
I like her actually but she really is talkign too much shit.

"Ingrid callate la jeta!! Stay in France"

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goin_south says on Jul 8, 2008, 22:10:

I'll repeat a few things, one more time:
...Uncle Al WILL RUN AGAIN.... and, be elected.
and,...I.B.... will never be president or VP of Colombia.

jus my humble opinion.
But, I'd be willling to bet on either or tally both together.
At least $5.

Where do we go from here?

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dwmte7 says on Jul 9, 2008, 04:55:

heh, southbound.....you the numbers man on pbh?

dwmte

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