Information about 6th March Vigils in UK

podborski says on Feb 26, 2008, 18:05:

are anti FARC demonstrators welcome at these vigils too?

Sr Tertius says on Feb 26, 2008, 19:42:

I'm sure they'll be more tolerant that these "anti Farc" people in Paris.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

tasco66 says on Feb 27, 2008, 08:03:

This post is from the Colombia Solidarity Campaign:

http://www.colombiasolidarity.org.uk/content/view/141/

This is how they describe themselves:

“The Colombia Solidarity Campaign is an anti-imperialist organisation"

“The objectives are:

•to oppose any US, British or foreign military intervention, believing that this will only escalate the problems in Colombia

•to oppose the policy of fumigation, and work for a solution to the coca problem based on the real needs of the people

•to draw attention to the role that is played by Multinational Corporations in violating workers rights and exploiting both the people and the environment of Colombia

•to draw attention to the horrific human rights situation in Colombia, and that the overwhelming majority of atrocities can be attributed to the action of the army, police, Colombian state organisms and the paramilitaries, which together constitute a policy of Colombian state terror

•to oppose the criminalisation of social protest."

http://www.colombiasolidarity.org.uk/content/view/15/26/

Not one word on Farc and ELN crimes. They may pass the “author test" of Sr. T, but not mine.

The more I see who is supporting this march, the more it makes me feel like staying at home one the 6th of March.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

tasco66 says on Feb 27, 2008, 08:07:

"are anti FARC demonstrators welcome at these vigils too?"

Apparently not, you need to wear one of those Danish pro-Farc shirts to fit in…

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

buggy says on Feb 27, 2008, 12:40:

I think it is very important to participate to this march that is organised by victims.
It is more clear than the the 4th February March supported by Mancuso and other executioners of the colombian people and not supported by the families of the hostages.

Those who have walked on February 4th against the FARC had said (like you at this time) that they will do the same against paramilitaries. We see how you keep promise ...

When you saw who supported the 4th February March, why did you not stay in your house?

“Ojos y oídos para Norteamérica / para su propio pueblo, sordo y ciego" Pablo Neruda

podborski says on Feb 27, 2008, 13:22:

I just want to know if anti FARC protesters are welcome? Anybody? Anybody?

I suppose not...

tasco66 says on Feb 27, 2008, 13:34:

Well I don’t know if Mancuso supported 4th February march, but I am sure that he did not take part in the march. He is where he deserves to be, unlike the top Farc leaders. That ‘s a big difference isn’t it?

I think I would feel a bit uncomfortable walking between cassini and Sr. T at any march. And a lot more uncomfortable walking along with Farc sympathisers and supporters.

And by the way don’t assume you know anything about me, or make-up things that I never said.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

buggy says on Feb 27, 2008, 13:47:

26 de febrero de 2008

www.movimientodevictimas.org



NO ESTAN INVITADOS



Durante los meses de aplicación de la ley de justicia y paz han sido asesinados más de 20 víctimas y testigos de crímenes cometidos por los grupos paramilitares investigados por esa jurisdicción. Con dolor muchas personas han asistido a las audiencias que se realizan en las fiscalías de la Unidad de Justicia y Paz para escuchar las justificaciones de los autores confesos de miles de crímenes cometidos contra sus familiares y amigos. Permanentemente han tenido que soportar el cinismo de sus agresores que se han atrevido incluso a comparecer ante los fiscales con comparsas vallenatas. En vez de reparar, los jefes paramilitares han entregado unos pocos bienes al Fondo de Reparación, y se han dedicado a esconder los millones de hectáreas de tierras y los capitales robados a las comunidades que han atacado y sometido. Lejos de desactivar las estructuras armadas, persisten en muchos departamentos del país grupos paramilitares que con diversos nombres continúan ejerciendo presiones y cometiendo toda clase de crímenes. Como si esto fuera poco, en los años de desmovilización se ha evidenciado un inmenso poder de sus aliados políticos.



En todos los actos públicos y privados, durante estos años los líderes de las AUC han demostrado un soberbio desprecio por sus víctimas. Ninguna de sus acciones denota un auténtico arrepentimiento por el sufrimiento y la destrucción que han sembrado en la sociedad colombiana.



El Movimiento Nacional de Víctimas de Crímenes de Estado ha afirmado que rechaza cualquier convocatoria de personas de grupos armados a los actos del 6 de marzo de 2008. El jefe paramilitar Salvatore Mancuso ha anunciado en un comunicado su “respaldo" a estos actos. Ni Mancuso ni los otros jefes paramilitares son bienvenidos en estos homenajes. Los victimarios no están invitados a sumarse a esta jornada. Su deber es decir la verdad, desmantelar los grupos paramilitares vigentes, denunciar a sus jefes y aliados políticos, entregar las tierras a los desplazados, y garantizar que sus crímenes contra la humanidad nunca más volverán a repetirse.


Movimiento Nacional de Víctimas de Crímenes de Estado

26 de febrero de 2008

“Ojos y oídos para Norteamérica / para su propio pueblo, sordo y ciego" Pablo Neruda

juancegomez says on Feb 27, 2008, 18:33:

tasco66: I still support the March 6th event...even though I find this so-called "Colombia Solidarity Campaign" in the UK to be one of the most extreme and simplistic organizations among those who will participate, given their description of what they are planning to do and ask for. They still have the right to do it, but I don't share their ideas.

They're too simplistic, IMHO. The same could be said about certain descriptions of FARC, I agree...but two wrongs don't make a right.

SrTertius: I imagine most will be tolerant, but some won't though (and, in my subjective opinion, these "Colombia Solidarity Campaign" guys don't exactly look like the best candidates for tolerance, though I could be surprised)...probably just as the vast majority of people in the anti-FARC marches were indeed quite tolerant, even if some weren't.

Something which is not exactly well-represented by a video showing one (or two or three, but in any case far from the majority or even a plurarity) incident of unnecessary intolerance.

buggy :

"I think it is very important to participate to this march that is organised by victims.
It is more clear than the the 4th February March supported by Mancuso and other executioners of the colombian people and not supported by the families of the hostages."

In addition to what has already been said...you're ignoring the fact that the "families of the hostages" are not limited to those few who show up on TV. Give that at least one minute of thought.

Plenty of other victims and their relatives did support the manifestation against FARC, and even former hostage Clara Rojas was present. Others were also calling for a humanitarian exchange, even if they were also against FARC.

As for Mancuso's statement of support (which was rejected by the organizers) making the march "unclear"...that's just as bad (if it were actually the point, which it isn't) as FARC, ANNCOL and others (such as James Petras, FARC-justifier extraordinary) expressing their support of the March 6th event. Does that make either event illegitimate? Not at all, so I think your reasoning feels a bit...incomplete, to say the least.

And btw...Mancuso expressed his support for the anti-paramilitary mobilization and it has also been rejected, as shown in the statement you posted.

"Those who have walked on February 4th against the FARC had said (like you at this time) that they will do the same against paramilitaries. We see how you keep promise ..."

I can say that I will do so, even though I don't share the specific ideas of this so-called "Colombia Solidarity Campaign" (so if I were currently in the UK I'd have to, at the very least, engage them in a debate), but it's not like there is any "promise" involved.

"When you saw who supported the 4th February March, why did you not stay in your house?"

This is just as bad as saying that "When you saw who supported the 6th March mobilization, why did you not stay in your house?".

tasco66 says on Feb 27, 2008, 18:45:

“the victims of the paramilitaries" does that include the Farc and ELN killed, wounded or hunted down by the paracos?

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

juancegomez says on Feb 27, 2008, 18:49:

We'd have to ask...but it's not like the paracos actually kill too many armed guerrillas, when their specialty seems to be murdering unarmed individuals, whether they are guerrillas or just unfairly perceived as such. They're not too good at direct combat with armed fighters.

tasco66 says on Feb 27, 2008, 19:01:

Because I don’t want to be marching for no Farc or ELN terrorists that fell “victim" of the paracos, no way.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

SiV says on Feb 27, 2008, 19:16:

tasco66: "I don’t want to be marching for no Farc or ELN terrorists that fell “victim" of the paracos, no way"

You don't have to, Tasco. When I marched on 4th Feb, I wasn't marching for the paramilitaries fallen "victim" to the Farc, but all the civilians, non-combatents, kidnapped, govt. forces, etc. killed by them.

Equally, when I march on 6th March, I won't be marching for the guerilla combatents, but the displaced, campesinos, indigenous, the massacred and all the other innocent victims.

Of course, you can argue, and in many ways you'd be right, that the perpetrators of crimes of all type are as much victims as the victims. Victims of their own violence, prisoners of their own mindset, as are their families and friends. I, however, won't be thinking of them when I march.

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

Alma del Norte says on Feb 27, 2008, 22:18:

Here here...It's amazing that even this forum can reflect the degree of polarisation in this country. Juance, you are a pillar of sense and plain speaking on this subject.

La vida es una rutina

podborski says on Feb 28, 2008, 05:21:

but why doesn't anyone answer my question? a simple yes or no would do. I'm not sure if buggy's post makes it clear?

timeforachangeofid says on Feb 28, 2008, 05:31:

Podborski - Grow up and stop acting like a fcking moron.

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. Albert Einstein

podborski says on Feb 28, 2008, 05:42:

I'll take that as a no then?

clearly touched a nerve

podborski says on Feb 28, 2008, 05:49:

hey timefor, I think you need to get over to the 'venezuela colombia threat of war thread' , we're waiting for your:

"What does this have to do with Colombia???? Doesn't FOX have a forum?"

comment whenever we talk about Chavez : )

billyb says on Feb 28, 2008, 05:53:

Pod, Or course you will be welcome, as long as you never directly question the FARC's atrocties and if really pushed to take a position on FARC violence, you must couch it by saying you are against ALL forms of violence. You will be allowed, even encouraged, to attack the governament and paras directly, but not the FARC. Now if you understand the ground rules, you will be welcome with open hands

podborski says on Feb 28, 2008, 05:59:

thanks billyb, I was just wondering....didn't mean to set them off like that : )

I was also wondering how they will play the story after the march. I figure it goes like this: big turnout = huge success, Uribe is a bum etc.

Low turnout = proof that Uribe is a supporter of paracos

billyb says on Feb 28, 2008, 06:08:

My guess is that it will be a low turn out, even though most normal people have no problem being offended by and rejecting para and governament violence directly (as opposed to the seeming incapability of the left to do the same with the FARC), because they don't want to participate in a march that is being promoted by the water carriers of the FARC.

tasco66 says on Feb 28, 2008, 06:11:

SIV it’s a bit different the paracos were formed to fight the “secuestradores". The Farc, ELN and other terrorists groups were formed for other goals.

Now I don’t know of any war without crimes against the civilians. This is unfortunate and must be condemned. Nevertheless it is a fact. Now when we see how regular military troops with a strong chain of command behave in war environment, we can expect that paramilitaries that have to account to nobody will commit even worse atrocities. However when looking at the atrocities perpetrated by both it is hard to see a difference.

I hope that every American that will participate in this march has also participated in similar marches for the war crimes that their soldiers committed in the conflicts they have been engaged in.

What I cannot stand is the double standard. That is when some perpatrators of atrocities are condemned and others are celebrated as heroes.

Here is just one example of war crimes that happened in conditions very similar to the current Colombian conflict:

The Tiger Force was a highly decorated unit, it was awarded the Presidential Unit Citation by President Lyndon B. Johnson. Their war crimes included:

the routine torture and execution of prisoners

the routine practice of intentionally killing unarmed Vietnamese villagers including men, women, children, and elderly people

the routine practice of cutting off and collecting the ears of victims

the practice of wearing necklaces composed of human ears

the practice of cutting off and collecting the scalps of victims

an incident where a young mother was drugged, raped, and then executed

an incident where a soldier killed a baby and cut off his or her head after the baby's mother was killed

The investigators concluded that many of the war crimes indeed took place.
Despite this, the Army decided not to pursue any prosecutions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Force

Now just imagine if Uribe had done the same thing with the paracos and his rogue militaries? Here a few medals and off you go…

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

SiV says on Feb 28, 2008, 12:52:

Tasco, the Auc were not only formed to fight the guerrilla, they were also formed to further their financers' interests: land, political power, narcotrafficking. But it seems you've already made your mind up not to march, ther'es always an excuse not to.

Actually, your last post sounds something like an apology for the Auc, or at least the Uribe administration's lenient approach to their crimes against humanity.

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

tasco66 says on Feb 28, 2008, 13:35:

Just for the record I am against all forms of violence. I have never been affiliated to any political party (thank god for that) and there are not many politicians that I admire, but if I had to name one it would be Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.

Sure Paracos and guerrillas today serve other interests than their original goals. The problem is that once these armed groups are formed, it is very difficult to get rid of them, especially in a country with the geography of Colombia.

Is Uribe perfect? Certainly not, but he has to deal with a very complex conflict in Colombia, and has had success in reducing the threat of all arms groups. Nobody can deny that the country is much safer since he has taken office.

Why should he be held to different standards than a US President? Only in the US can Presidents pass retroactive legislation protecting themselves for war crimes:



Now imagine what would be the reaction if Uribe did that?

All I am doing is showing the hypocrisy in the way certain people portray him.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

SiV says on Feb 29, 2008, 05:14:

A dignified response, tasco. Though I think that regarding the US and war crimes you have the boot on the other foot: my question would be should a US president be held to different standards regarding war crimes? Following my POV, a US president is just as accountable for their actions as any other head of state.

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

billyb says on Feb 29, 2008, 06:26:

Below is an excerpt from an interview with Beltran, one of the released hostages. Hope the pro-FARC rally has the same impact as the last one.

"El recién liberado luego de seis años de secuestro habló en exclusiva con Colprensa y reveló el indudable impacto que causó en la selva la multitudinaria movilización civil del pasado 4 de febrero, al punto de que no duda en atribuir a ella su liberación y la de sus otros tres compañeros en el calvario del secuestro."

juancegomez says on Feb 29, 2008, 09:02:

billyb: When asked about the March 6th mobilization by journalists, though curiously enough the reporters didn't explicitly say what it was about while doing so, they also supported it on an individual basis.