Indirectly pertains to Colombia as well as other countries. What do you think?

scotty says on Aug 14, 2007, 09:38:

well he may not want to become an american, what then? what if he just wants to live here 3 or 4 or 5 years and earn some money?

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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Swinn88 says on Aug 14, 2007, 09:42:

I would imagine that the particular immigrant that does not want to be an American...does not have to become an American.

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Swinn88 says on Aug 14, 2007, 09:47:

My understanding of what was written (I may be wrong) is that President Roosevelt is talking about Immigrants that come to stay to begin a new life for themselves and their children. Perhaps people visiting for a few years to return to their own countries are not considered immigrantsand they are just visiters...?

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Sr Tertius says on Aug 14, 2007, 18:36:

I think that in this day and age it makes little sense to honestly talk about nationalisms. People are more connected, and also more separated, by religion, profession, tastes, income, etc. than by nationality. Local geographical identity may make some sense, but that's about the limit.

If people move to Bogotá in a relatively permanent way, I would hope that they would integrate themselves with the local culture, affecting it but also letting themselves be affected by it. In a way, I would expect that they become, in some sense, Bogotanos. But what would it mean to become "Colombiano" in general? Is being Costeño being Colombiano? How about Chocoano? Or Pastuso? Are you expected to become all, any, none of them? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Same thing probably goes with the US. What does it mean to become American? Speak English and pledge allegiance to a flag? Is that it? That seems pretty frivolous to me. I can see how you can become a New Yorker, a Los Angelino, even a Mid-Westerner, but an "American" in general?

This is one of the reasons it makes absolutely no sense when people talk about nations like they were people. "Iran did this..." "Venezuela did that..." "Europe hates this..." "The US invades that..." It's confused language.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Aug 14, 2007, 19:12:

I don't know if you call it nationalism or some crazy type of patriotism but here's an example that made me scratch my head:

Two weeks ago, as most people know, a major bridge collapsed in Minneapolis. One of those killed was a 30 year old Mexican immigrant. In the write-ups that followed, he fit the profile of an illegal alien - restaurant worker, a couple of young kids in Mexico, a wife that recently joined him after he'd already been here for a number of years, a two month old baby (born here...some people call them anchor babies), no other relatives in the area that would have sponsored him or his wife and so on. He dies young and tragically and there is an outpouring of sympathy. The next day, in the Latino section of the city, people have put up a makeshift shrine - candles, flowers, cards, religious icons - pretty much what you'd expect. But hanging above the shrine is a huge Mexican flag that someone taped up. Unbelievable. I saw the picture and thought what the hell does Mexico have to do with any of this?

He came here voluntarily but illegally, he was treated a lot better than an illegal alien would be treated in Mexico, he sent his money to Mexico, his kid is now a citizen, his family will receive all kinds of aid and his wife will surely join one of the billion dollar lawsuits that have already been filed. So...they take, take, take from the U.S. and at a rather inopportune time some moron has the gall to put up this big flag and basically thumb their nose at the U.S.

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Man Tequila says on Aug 14, 2007, 21:52:

Theodore Roosevelt is talking about America. He is excluding foreign flags. Are you saying Colombians in the US must speak English and cannot be involved in any way with their country in order to receive freedom from discrimination?

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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miamimike says on Aug 14, 2007, 22:10:

Tinto--you see that all the time in Miami with the Cubans and their Flag.For many of us in Miami, we see the Cuban Flag as a Symbol of Communism and Oppression, take a ride through Hialeah or Little Havana on a Day like our 4th of July nary an American Flag fluttering in the breeze, exceptfor the Car Dealers or Ihop Pancake houses. You would think once a group like the Cubans recieve their Instant US residency and ALL the Benefits (ss, medicare, medicaid, section 8, food stamps, ect) one would think they would embrace the American Flagand our way of life and Assimilate, but no, after 40 years they continue to wave the Cuban Red, white and Blue,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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jinksmiester says on Aug 15, 2007, 01:03:

You make a good point tinto...non of that had a damn thing to do with mexico.
I might be old fashioned but i think if you immigrate to a new country for a better life you should have allegiance to that country. To manny people come to the U.S.and bring there excess garbage (problems) of there home country with them.Then they will demonstrate on the streets as if its the U.S. has a responsibilty to fix the problems of there home country.
Its really quite simple...if you want to seek a better life and come to a new country as an american or a canadian or whatever...you are in there sand box and you should respect it not shit all over it

A man is not old until regret takes the place of dreams

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jinksmiester says on Aug 15, 2007, 01:12:

A person can still have pride in there home country and of course retain there language and customs....but the country you are living in rightly deserves your loyalty...and if you don,t want to give it...then leave....my opinion

A man is not old until regret takes the place of dreams

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Swinn88 says on Aug 15, 2007, 07:04:

Man Tequila, I believe what the President was saying is that everyone should be treated equally. He stated that it is an outrage to discriminate against anyman because of creed, birthplace, or origin. Anyone that comes to the U.S.A as long as they come to be Americans will be treated as such. No divided allegiance. I think (i'm not sure ) that Colombians would feel the same about immigrants to colombia. Sr. Tertius I think you are correct. It should be expected that people entegrate into the culture. However, English, The flag, the pledge is a way to show or even prove solidarity. I'm not sure if there are other ways to show that you have decided to be a part of the country that you adopted. The U.S. is the most diverse nation and arguably the most mixed culture. Everyone holds onto their cultural backgrouds. The Foods, the music, even religious practices but everyone is American regardless of that background. Same as Colombia. If you go there to live and make a better place for you and your children then be colombian. If not...if you raise the american flag or any other flag in Colombia and Colombians allow it then the country begins to fragment. Some say that's whats happening in the U.S. now. The new Immigrants don't want to be American. They want to be Africans, Chinese, Colombians Etc. in America. By doing this they destroy the things they came to enjoy. My good friend from Argentina told me that if an American Flag was raised in Argentina or if Argentinas National Anthem was sung in english the people responsible would be Killed. Would something like that happen in Colombia? Would Colombians be upset if a very large group of foriegners came to Colombia and wanted to live as other than Colombian?

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Swinn88 says on Aug 15, 2007, 07:19:

That is the key Jink. You can speak the language of your parents. Eat the same foods. listen to the music. Celebrate important occassions. You can do all this and be USA. That's what USA is about. Diversity. Many cultures, Many foods, many kinds of music, many mixed coupleing, and more. But to have allegiance to a country that you have no desire to return to is dangerous. to raise the flag of a country that does not afford you the comforts of the country that you have adopted is dangerous. to try and live in your new country and not learn it's language and not learn that there are other customs that can be added to your own to enrich your lives is dangerous in any country. We hear it all the time on PBH no? Those Americans trying to act like Americans in Colombia. They should just go home. No gringos allowed. When in Colombia act like the Colombians and there is less chance of problems. Thats what I think the president was saying. Come to the US and be a part of us. Enrich us with your culture but be us, not separate, but part of the American experiment. What do you all think?

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juancegomez says on Aug 15, 2007, 08:20:

I think that it's generally fine for people to have a "divided allegiance" as long as the two countries are not at war or otherwise in open conflict (and even then, it would have to be examined on a case by case basis).

Sr Tertius makes a good point about the whole issue of nationalism in the modern world, where diversity is the key...but in particular, I have to say that I see no harm in people who, figuratively, raise two flags: that of their country of origin and that of their country of residence. This doesn't mean that people shouldn't try to integrate themselves into their new homeland, so I definitely see a problem when Latin American immigrants either don't learn English, don't follow local laws and/or don't teach their children to do so. But the mere fact of feeling allegiance, respect or nostalgia towards more than one country isn't a problem.

Heck...people divide their loyalties all the time, even between their own parents (even if they are divorced), interests and friends. Sometimes with plenty of friction, others with no qualms.

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Swinn88 says on Aug 15, 2007, 08:55:

Hi Juan. You are correct. I see Italian Flags on cars of American descendents of italy. My neighbor has an American flag on one side of his house and a salvadorian flag on the other. I myself have an American Flag and a Colombian flag hanging from my rear view mirror in my car. Everyday I drive to the Bronx and I see Puerto Rican Flags all over the place. It's pride in our heritage, no? All Americans do it. French American. Italian American, Russian American. Would you take sides with the old country against your new country? German Americans fought in Germany against the Germans. Italian Americans Fought against Italians. Even with their heritage they were Americans 1st. Should Shakira have allegiance to Colombia? or Lebanon? Should Salvatore Mancuso have Allegiance to Colombia or Italy. Should Vicente Fox have allegiance to Mexico or The U.S.A. should Raquel welch have allegiance to The USA or Bolivia? I am willing to bet that Shakira is 100% colombian regardless of her heritage. The same for Salvatore Mancuso. Vicente Fox is Mexican regardless of the Fact that he has Old Irish American roots and Raquel Welch is Absolutely American even though she is of Bolivian Heritage. (I use These names because most of us know who the people are) I have a friend whose Parents Are from Mexico. She has never been to Mexico in her 40 years. She has no plans to ever go to Mexico. Is she Mexican? descendent of Mexico? Is she American? Should she have Allegience to Mexico or the US? Should she protest demanding rights for Mexicans in the U.S.? Should I protest demanding rights for USAs in Colombia. If there were 1 Million USAs living in Colombia how would you feel if they protested demanding rights for USAs in Colombia while waving and American Flag? Be honest tell me what you think?

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juancegomez says on Aug 15, 2007, 09:45:

Well, to begin with...being "X first" isn't always so clear-cut. For example...I have a few Colombia-born and -raised relatives that are/were married to and eventually became U.S. citizens themselves.

I can't see inside their heads, but they seem to absolutely respect the United States as a country and honor its traditions as far as I can tell. Yet they still consider themselves to be quite Colombian as well. To what extent? I couldn't tell you. I honestly cannot currently classify them as "U.S. first" or "Colombia first". Their children, on the other hand, are apparently far more U.S. American than Colombian, so a "U.S. first" classification is far more likely there, but a couple do show a certain inclination towards Latin American-related issues and whatnot. I don't see a problem in either case, however.

With respect to the other issues...they are mostly case by case decisions that concern each individual and each situation.

So if you're asking me what I think about "if there were 1 Million USAs living in Colombia how would you feel if they protested demanding rights for USAs in Colombia while waving and American Flag", I would need to confirm if what you're imagining is merely a direct reflection of what's going on in the U.S. right now (which would mean that many of them would be illegally living in Colombia), and not a more convincing (yet currently very unlikely) scenario.

If that is the case (a direct reflection), then I would say this: I believe that they should all be entitled to certain human and legal rights. Still, illegals who verifiable commit crimes should be automatically deported in most cases. Border security should be improved, but legal immigration should be heavily expanded. And there should be a pathway to citizenship, unless a massive deportation program were possible without economic, political and even humanitarian consequences on a million-plus scale.

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juancegomez says on Aug 15, 2007, 09:48:

Let me add that pathway to citizenship doesn't mean immediate amnesty, although that might well be the working result.

Also...I mean to type "Still, illegals who verifiably (ie: legally confirmed through due process) commit crimes should be automatically deported in most cases."

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happy camper says on Aug 15, 2007, 10:01:

I have questions about those who claim American citizenship but are dual nationals. Especially those who hold high positions in the government of the United States. I understand that in some cases they are even permitted to pay their income tax assessment to another country. Israel comes to mind.

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jinksmiester says on Aug 15, 2007, 10:32:

I coming to a new country it would be stupid to not want to learn there language and integrate.If i had to find a job in colombia or any other country it would be a hell of lot harder if the vast majority can,t understand you.
To be fair a large number of people who immigrate do integrate and are happy to be a part of new country...i see that here in alberta right now as there is an explosion of work available and manny people coming from other countrys to fill jobs that otherwize would not be filled.
But there are also those who don,t deserve to be here....I was working on a job up north (refinery new construction)when 9-11 happened and staying in camp.I I happened to come into the kitchen that day and there were about 10 mostly i believe arab canadians standing around a tv set watching the news and CELEBRATING.They were having a party and thought all it was the greatest thing since sliced cheeze that the u.s. was under attack and people were dying...I was never more angry or discusted in my life.

A man is not old until regret takes the place of dreams

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Man Tequila says on Aug 15, 2007, 11:39:

People have as right to celebrate their heritage, language, religion and traditions regardless of where they live if these do not harm others, break reasonable laws, etc.

People who emigrate to country X should have an obligation to learn the local language and respect local customs and law. Immigrants often are easy targets of discrimination in a new country and have the right to protest unfair conditions under the same laws as other citizens. So while protests may need to be taken on a case by case basis, immigrants have as much right as any special interest group or lobbyist to make their concerns heard. "Putting America first" is nice rhetoric but as Juance points out, so called divided loyalties are not cut and dry. It is true America may be more generous than some countries in granting immigrants the right to protest, but this is in accordance with local law as well. Many Americans look down on protesting Mexicans, as Colombians would possibly look down on protesting Americans in Colombia.

Your interpretation of Roosevelt's statement ignores the use of the words "such" and "predicated". I do think my interpretation is closer, though I disagree with the idea. But Roosevelt (1888-1945) was enlightened by the standards of his times.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Swinn88 says on Aug 15, 2007, 11:54:

Very Good Juan...You can honor your host countries traditions and keep your cultural background that is the great American Experiment! But could the same be done in colombia? Could you drive with an American Flag in your car or or could you have one on the side of your house. What about a Mexican flag? would Colombians be outraged to see Mexican Flags in protest for a particular reason. In consideration of immigrants to colombia should they stay in Smaller communities where they only speak English, Chinese, Russian, Etc. or should they venture out and get to know the culture of the Colombian peoples. Ask your family how they think people would react to hear the Colombian National anthem in a different language. Would we consider that to be Colombian? I wouldn't consider it colombian to sing the Anthem in English.

Jink You are on point also. What about the people that live, grow, and prosper in your country and then praise its destruction as if they are not better off in their new country? Are they Americans? I would guess that a vast majority of those people are Americans by birth and still hate the country they were born and raised in. Are they Americans? They were born there! In consideration of what has been stated...who should be an American? Should you be American by birth? What measures could be taken to assure allegiance to a particular country?

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Swinn88 says on Aug 15, 2007, 12:17:

Yes Mr. Tequila I have stated what you have stated as well. You have the right to be culturally different. let me pose a question...Should they be allowed to protest as representatives of another nation? or should they be allowed to protest as people that want to be a part of their new home? with american flags? because perhaps they would like to be Americans? Should an American not willing to be colombian in colombia be given citizenship and the rights of a Colombian? Should they be given what they want just because they are in Colombia?

By the way I have not ignored any of the statement. I even stated that I may be wrong in my take on the statement. The truth is I just want to know what you all think. Educate me on your views so that I have a better understanding. I may stick with how I think on the topic or you may change my mind. We will see what happens.

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Swinn88 says on Aug 15, 2007, 12:23:

Please everyone read The Presidents statement again. Carefully. Apply it to Whatever country you are from and tell me if you agree. For example...


"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes a Colombian and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact a Colombian, and nothing but a Colombian...

There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is a Colombian, but something else also, isn't a Colombian at all. We have room for but one flag, the Colombian flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the Spanish language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the Colombian people."

Tell me... does the change in name of the country in this statement change how we feel?

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juancegomez says on Aug 15, 2007, 13:21:

Swinn88: It depends. I don't know if that would be legal. Still, I can see that some people would object to flying such flags here as well, especially if there are no Colombian flags present at the same time. But I personally wouldn't make any fuss, and if the two flags are present it would be even less of a concern.

The only thing I would reject (and do) would be flying foreign flags with the clear intention of credibly promoting separatism (as in the defection or division of Colombian territory).

But if we are talking about protests regarding cultural issues or the human/legal/political rights of foreigners in Colombia, then I would have little to no problems, other than those previously mentioned.

Also, while it is certainly strange, I think there's no problem with singing the Colombian anthem in English if said individual is young, new to the country and is still in the process of integrating himself, while actually trying to learn the local language. Or if the individual is too old (say, over 70) and can't realistically learn the language (I know of one such case) but does want to pledge allegiance to Colombia. Or if the anthem is sung in both languages at the same event.

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Man Tequila says on Aug 15, 2007, 14:57:

Colombians never discriminate on birthplace, creed or origin. Perhaps you are thinking of a different country.

It is hard to answer your protest question since it is hypothetical and depends on circumstance. e.g. Many Mexicans protesting in the US desire American citizenship but lack this legal status. This is the raison d'etre for some protests. I cannot picture a million Americans in Colombia, and Colombians themselves have sometimes have trouble exercising their political rights, as you know.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Swinn88 says on Aug 15, 2007, 15:36:

I'm not thinking of any particular country actually. Just want to hear your views.

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Robert Jorge says on Aug 15, 2007, 16:04:

I read a time ago that it is illegal to fly a foreign flag in Colombia. The Colombian law considers that, (flying a foreign flag), a claim of Colombian soil as foreign soil. I don't know if this is true?

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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Swinn88 says on Aug 16, 2007, 08:41:

I'm Going to look into that RJ.

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