Indigenous Children Starve To Death Due to Fumigations

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 4, 2008, 15:06:

Bump

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Lcacique says on Aug 4, 2008, 16:37:

LDW says: "Pretty sad. This 'war on drugs' is just so much bullcrap. The problem is not with the people who grow the stuff. The problem is with the people who consume it."

Wow, LDW, we agree!!!

LDW says: "The most suitable treatment for a drug addict/junkie is to lock him/her in a room with an unlimited supply of the drug, in hopes of bringing about his/her quick demise."

Damn, I knew it couldn't last...jajaja. Drug treatment has been proven to be extremely effective. And will power is important but there are other factors as well that are important for successful rehabilitation. Letting people indulge until they kill themselves is ridiculous.

This is one of the sides of the drug war that does not get enough attention...likely because few people are all that concerned about the campesinos. Regardless of whether or not the spray is toxic, there is little doubt that it is extremely harmful for human health in the sense that it robs poor families of a food source (licit crops) as well a source of income (illicit crops). How many lives have been severely impacted by the spray campaigns? Countless...and nobody is counting because it is happening to a bunch of poor campesinos. It is a shameful issue.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 4, 2008, 16:48:

It's almost always the little guy who gets screwed.

The FARC and the narcos don't really care who they buy their coca from, and they've pretty much outsourced the risk to the campesinos in places like this. So aerial spraying can have the impact of destroying a poor family's livelihood while doing almost nothing toward stopping the overall supply of drugs.

Even with the FARC as down and out as it is, I'm sure this kind of situation is a wet dream for their recruitment of new manpower.

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harvardexec says on Aug 4, 2008, 17:51:

"War on Drugs Sees Progress in Colombia", McCain says:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/07/02/war_on_drugs_seein...

If this is "progress", can he can declare "victory" by eradicating coca through Carpet Bombing in Colombia? That would certainly get rid of the kids....I mean coca....problem.

"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."-John McCain

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Lcacique says on Aug 4, 2008, 21:44:

Well, LDW, then we partially agree on that point as well. I do not necessarily lose sympathy that quickly for them, however. It depends on what type of treatment they received and for how long (and several other factors that have less to do with treatment). Sorry, nevertheless, for misunderstanding you.


The FARC has never had much to do with the actual cultivation of crops; therefore, aerial fumigation has always targeted the campesinos.


If you really want to understand the lack of regard that the US has for Colombia, look into the US governments desire to spread a fungus in Colombia in order to cripple coca cultivation. There was a tremendous concern that such a project would possibly damage many other types of flora and fauna and that it would most likely be impossible to manage. Despite the reasonable criticism the project received, US officials are still talking about it and some continue pushing for it (especially since Colombia has discussed moving a way from aerial fumigation). I doubt very seriously that the Colombian government would allow such a project; however, what bothers me is the absolute lack of concern that some US officials have for Colombia.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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harvardexec says on Aug 4, 2008, 22:03:

Lc...."I doubt very seriously that the Colombian government would allow such a project."

I agree. Unfortunately, the politicians in the Colombian government are a different story. Money talks. I'm sure when a US Fumigation Contractor offers Colombian politicians a cut of a multi-million dollar contract, their vote will change quickly.

I can hear the Colombian congressmen talking to their kids:

"Who cares about those damn Indians in the hills, we're going to Disney Land!"

"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."-John McCain

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 5, 2008, 03:44:

I'm afraid you're right, harvardexec.

I can hear those congressmen talking to their kids too. They might also add that "at the same time we can perhaps visit your tio in a federal prison.."..

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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lampltr says on Aug 6, 2008, 06:33:

What have I said all along....no one cares about the people (In general), in the rural areas who live off the land. Especially foreign governments who care for nothing but their own goals, and including the Colombian government who sit on their brains.
What was reported in Eltiempo is only the tip of the iceberg, what about the people who do not get the opportunity to raise their voices. At least we all agree here! Thanks Desideria

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sanandressi says on Aug 6, 2008, 10:11:

The growing of a product that destroys the human body makes little sense. I have heard Colombians before with this casual if you did not use it we would not produce it but this is another example of how people justify something they know they should not be doing. Denial is the word.

"This train will stop in Tucumcari"

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 6, 2008, 11:01:

Coca grew wild on those hills a long time before the gringos found out they could get high on it. It was never a problem. The artificially created need for it created the market, the illicity made it profitable and the high profits turnout produces criminality.

The Nukak Maku and the other tribes that live in that area have seen their livelihood destroyed by the fumigations; the article does not mention if the illicit crops are theírs or not, only that people are starving because edible crops are being destroyed and people are moving away to the towns (they can only leave the area during dry periods, by river transport).

As late as mid- seventies the mestizo colonists still hunted indigenous people like they were animals, on the llanos. There was an incident when an outdoors banquette was prepared at some hato /cattle ranch on the plains, to lure starving indigenous families there and when they were feeding and feeding their babes they were massacred (about 25 individuals).

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 6, 2008, 11:07:

Desi, I think you are mistaken. The problem is not that edible crops are being destroyed. The problem is one of economic disruption caused by the destruction of coca farms which, while illegal, are also the economic livelihood for many people in that region.

By the way, while you might be right to blame gringos as the major consumers of coca now, indigenous Colombians were cultivating the stuff and getting high on it in various different ways for centuries. Witness Bogota's Gold Museum, which is pretty much a temple to beautiful drug paraphenelia.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 6, 2008, 11:44:

I wasn't quite sure about what "pan coger" that is mentioned in the article was, but googling a little I found out it's an agricultural term referring to growing of corn, manioc (cassava) and platano, the basic diet of the indigenous tribes. So, yes, it's both food crops and illicit crops that are being destroyd, causing starvation.

I think using coke as a recreational drug is a created need and the commercial use of cocaine started in the USA. That the indigenous religious leaders have used coke leaves to induce euphoria in rituals is quite beside the point.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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elmodefoque says on Aug 6, 2008, 13:19:

my indegenous people have been using coke/perico for medicine, religion and to get wasted on weekends for thousands of years, going back when the white man was still living in fokin caves and eating his buggars
my people will continue to suffer under the hands of the modefoques that kicked our ass and our women will continue sell themselves , whatta you gonna do??
if you can't beat them, join them

I'll get there, when I get there!

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Lcacique says on Aug 6, 2008, 14:07:

Mr. Hollywood: It has been well-documented that licit crops (food crops) get destroyed by the aerial fumigation of coca. First, because campesinos plant their food crops amongst the coca (partially to hide it, but also because they often do not have a tremendous amount of space to cultivate). Second, there is no way to control where the spray lands and it obviously drifts into areas that it is not suppose to, killing what ever plant life it contacts. So, yes...the killing of food crops is a huge issue for the campesinos.

sanandressi: again with this nonsense. Desi is correct. It has little to do with denial, and a lot to do with economics.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 6, 2008, 17:29:

Sorry, but if you plant your food crops with your illegal crops, you've got nothing to complain about when it all gets destroyed by law enforcement.

Just FYI, I am against aerial spraying of coca. I think it provides the FARC and other narcos with a great recruiting tool and I don't think destroying supply has any impact whatsoever on demand, which is the ultimate problem. But let's not kid ourselves that the problem here is one in which all the FOOD in an area has been destroyed. You can't even begin to imagine how much herbicide spray that would take.The problem is that the ECONOMIES of individual families and perhaps villages have been disrupted because the cash crop, coca, was destroyed.

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Lcacique says on Aug 6, 2008, 18:46:

Mr. Hollywood: I understand how you come to the rational that the campesinos are somehow at fault if their food crops are destroyed when they are planted amongst coca (like I said, this is not always the case...they are also often destroyed when they are not amongst the coca); however, I think law enforcement needs to recognize that aerial fumigation is ineffective, and more importantly, that it is also threatening the lives of people whose options are quite limited.

"Just FYI, I am against aerial spraying of coca. I think it provides the FARC and other narcos with a great recruiting tool and I don't think destroying supply has any impact whatsoever on demand, which is the ultimate problem."

Those are excellent points. FYI, I agree.

Your point about the ability of the spray to wipe out a campesino's food source is lost on me. Are you familiar with the concentration that is applied in Colombia? Do you know how much herbicide has been applied in Colombia? If not, let me point out something that should be quite obvious: if the herbicide is strong enough to destroy coca then it is also strong enough to kill food crops. My point is that many families have indeed seen all of their food crops destroyed. And that these families often depend on their crops for sustenance. I am not talking about fumigation wiping diminishing Exito's access to food.

Here is an example of a person taking part in an alternative development program...he wasn't growing coca...he was growing peanuts...in the distance you can see a white flag meant to warn pilots that he was not growing illicit crops. It did not matter. And as you can see, the herbicide effectively destroyed his entire crop.



It also killed the fruit that it came in contact with (he is holding destroyed peanuts)



This photo is from a different farm where the families corn was destroyed



Yes, their economies are greatly decreased as you point out (w/ the loss of coca). And that is most likely the greatest problem they face as a result of the fumigation (if there are no health risks); however, the destruction of food crops also occurs and it effects many lives.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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gatogris says on Aug 6, 2008, 20:28:

This is an excellent post accompanied by several good comments. It raises the question of why it is that the discussions that are so often of interest to this board revolve around abstract questions of moral value, i.e. whether the campesinos who grow coca deserve the emiseration that literally rains down upon them by participating in an illegal trade or whether mitigating socioeconomic factors excuse them of blame and place it squarely on the shoulders of elite policy makers.

This is a clear crime against humanity with a clear moral response from almost any standpoint worthy of recognition on the political spectrum.

It is an ethical outrage that these deaths are the result of considered policy. Any action that has this outcome must be immediately stopped and should have no place at the table.

Arguments that seek to justify this tragedy by reference to a greater good are totally self-serving and belong in the dustbin of history, along with left-wing idealist apologists for Stalin.

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Lcacique says on Aug 6, 2008, 23:04:

I just want to add something to my last point:

...the destruction of food crops also occurs and it effects many lives. And for what?

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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lampltr says on Aug 7, 2008, 08:30:

Seeing pics like this above totally piss me off and gets my blood boiling. I side with certain _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ who counter this crap. How much hard earned money and or savings went into buying the seedlings for the crops pictured above? Perhaps this may be the second time around for one farmer or two or even a dozen....If the governments don't give a shit and you are trying to survive and come out ahead what does one do next? I quick cash crop, easy pay...I know I would take the chance, what would one have to lose? When countless families are starving, disease stricken and even death without anyone truly caring over the years then one has to do what one has to do regardless to take care of their families. If some of you had no money and were starving, how would you survive? Medically, you have your young one that needs major medical care do to a disease from herbicides what would you do? You have major dental problems but cannot afford to remove the extreme pain with a local dentist visit, but for years your family taught you the medical benefits of the cocoa leaves...You get my drift. People still continue to eat regardless from effected animals, fish from polluted waters, etc. Again repeating myself from posts in the past, there is the global farmers subsidies (Spelling) that the locals also have to do battle in and compete for which they cannot. I believe the WTO and local governments need to step up to the plate and really truly address Colombia's social and economic woes and better assist the people. Perhaps after a more competitive marketplace, better financing for farmers, a better economy and the like, people would be more inclined to reject more and more Narco advances. As a farmer, you cannot pick and choose where to own your lands as money does not grow on Fumigated tree's...If a Narco desides to plant cocoa in your area what is one suppose to do? This by no means is an easy fix but is extremely complicated issue, however the spraying needs to stop immediately and that this can be accomplished by the world body...Until then, we may see continued contracts being filled for pilots, maintenance crews etc. to accomplish this mission for spraying, who cares right! Personally, to accept a good paying job offer close to family would be great, however I do not believe in this and would not accept any position in association.
Many people make up excuses or are in other countries that have absolutely no clue to the local living conditions and what the local population is going through but they sure can talk....Everyone here makes a basic understandable point of view but the bottom line is we all agree this crap needs to stop immediately!!

Elmo, I side with you bro, right on regarding the medicinal purposes etc.!!
Gatogris, another side also is the force (threats), being used to gain the workers and as stated above, economic woes.
Lcacique; Good point and great pics, thanks.
Desi, you are there also....A suggestion, the possibility to moving the server out of the U.S.? Privacy issue....

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 7, 2008, 20:56:

LCacique, with regard to your question about what I know about the concentrations of spray, etc.

I don't know the exact concentrations of spray used in Colombia, but to kill coca it's probably pretty strong. I'm certainly NOT saying that if the spray misses and hits the wrong thing it's not going to kill it. To be extremely clear, I'm saying that herbicides are expensive, and the technology of spraying is surprisingly good. I say this as someone who grew up around agriculture and have watched a lot of aerial applications of herbicides and pesticides (probably more than I like, speaking of health issues). So except in cases of gardens that are right next to an illegal coca farm, you're just not going to lose that much to overspray or misses.

To cause literal starvation, either the indigenous people had ALL of their food crops mixed in with illegal crops, or else the cause is the economic loss of the coca crop.

And just to be even more painfully clear, I don't particularly blame them for growing any cash crop they need to stay alive, whether it's legal or not. But let's not be naive about things, either.

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 7, 2008, 21:11:

I can't recall what else is mixed with Round-Up in Colombia, but Round-Up alone is a temporary plant killer. The pictures look bad but it's quite possible those same fields could be replanted with legal and illegal crops within a couple of months. I'm not a big fan of the spraying program, because it doesn't appear to be the right solution and it's very expensive, but I don't think there are credible reports of large numbers of people starving because of it.

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Lcacique says on Aug 7, 2008, 23:52:

Tinto, lets assume that you are right that the campesinos could replant after a couple of months...what do they do in the meantime for a food source? How long does it take to regrow food crops? What about a source of income? Where do they get the money to replant if there source of income was wiped out? Do you want me to go on? (BTW, the ONDCP claims it takes a coca farmer six to eight months to recoup what they lost in terms of coca and that is using a variety of means not just replanting. Food crops generally take longer, that is another reason coca is so preferable).

A child (or anyone else) going without food for several days at a time or not getting enough food on a regular basis because most or all of it has been destroyed, is (IMHO) a form of starvation. Do they have to die in order for it to be considered an issue? What about malnutrition as a result of losing crops? Is that not a concern? I'm sure that you feel that it is a concern, Tinto.

Of course there aren't credible numbers on it. The government, to the best of my knowledge, is not keeping track of those type of figures.

Like I said, they do not even consider those displaced by fumigation to be displaced. In other words, those people are not accounted for an official records. But I have seen estimates (granted by those EVIL and UNTRUSTWORTHY NGOs) that point to a pretty high number. And Colombia certainly doesn't need to be burdened with the added strain that this causes...

Just my opinion...

Mr. Hollywood:

The product used in Colombia is a mixture of Round-Up Ultra, water, Cosmo-Flux 411 and an unknown additive. Monsanto's label says that it is an end use product, meaning that nothing should be added to it. But the government readily admits that the ingredients listed above are added to the mixture. The label also warns that the herbicide should only be used in concentrations between 1.7 and 7.7 percent (mixed with water); however, the US government's data demonstrates that what is applied in Colombia is a 44 percent concentration. But that is just the concentration of the mixture, then one has to figure out how much is applied to any given area to understand how much is ending up on the ground. The statistics I have seen point to a VERY heavy dose if we can trust the statistics released by the government. As for the overall number of hectares sprayed...I know that in 2005 they sprayed 172,024 hectares. That is a pretty huge area. Between 2000 and 2006, they fumigated 866,840 hectares (those figures are from the State Department).

With respect to the effectiveness of the equipment...I agree that the technology used is pretty advanced. But in Colombia the planes do not fly at same altitudes that they do in the US (generally) because they have to worry about being fired upon. In addition, they also occasionally have to deal with the mountainous terrain that is subject to wind gusts. Clearly, the spray can get carried by the wind. I seem to recall hearing about an embarrassing incident where the pilots were trying to demonstrate how effective they were at applying the spray when they accidentally doused the late Senator Paul Wellstone. But there have been quite a few reports of the spray drifting into areas where it was not intended (whether the reports are correct, I do not know). But isn't there the possibility that many instances would go unreported given the nature of where the situation?

blah, blah, blah...I could talk about this for days...

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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Lcacique says on Aug 8, 2008, 00:36:

Mr. Hollywood and Tinto: I appreciate everything that you both have written and you make valid points. I hope I do not come off as argumentative. I do not have all of the answers...These are simply some of my opinions (which can be changed with access to new knowledge) about the issue.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 8, 2008, 03:30:

I was under the impression that these children that starved to death belonged to three very isolated tribes, at least one of them nomadic. I have no knowledge of how much coca they could possibly grow in their nomadic lives, living off the land. Perhaps there were clandestine coca fields in the vicinity with airstrips to pick up the product, since these people only can leave that jungle during dry months by river transport, when the level of the water is low.

The whole thing is very frustrating. First of all, it's a crime against humanity, against the weakest ones of our society, the most defenseless ones and as such an abomination. How can ANY government authorize the poisoning of its own children on a planned operation, well aware of the consecuences? Second; these fumigations are a threat to the very fabric of the indigenous society and their existence in Colombia. We may well be the last generation that has co-existed on this planet with nukak maku of Colombia.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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tasco66 says on Aug 8, 2008, 05:15:

Gringos must stop consuming drugs

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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tasco66 says on Aug 8, 2008, 05:18:

Dump junk food and exercise maybe?

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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