In Guns v. Butter, Guns Win

Tinto (Moderator) says on May 27, 2008, 11:25:

I don't know why Colombia wants to waste money on attack helicopters and fighter jets unless they really think they're going to be fighting Venezuela some day. Purchasing cheap transport helicopters and upgrading those ancient armored cars makes sense, but the other items simply escalate an expensive arms race they can't win.

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Alma del Norte says on May 27, 2008, 11:27:

Butter's a real killer.

La vida es una rutina

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cali373 says on May 27, 2008, 11:32:

I would be skeptical in beleiving that Colombia would buy arms from Russia instead of the U.S.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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Tinto (Moderator) says on May 27, 2008, 11:36:

Depends. I once read that Colombia tried to buy US attack helicopters or tried to get them included in the Plan Colombia donations but the answer was "No, you can't have them."

That was several years ago and maybe things have changed. If Wikipedia is to be believed, we've sold some Apaches (perhaps the "dumb" versions) to countries that I wouldn't consider allies.

Egypt
* Egyptian Air Force 35 x AH-64D

Flag of Greece Greece
* Hellenic Army 20 x AH-64A, 12 x AH-64D (total 32)

Flag of Israel Israel
* Israeli Air Force 37 x AH-64A, 11 x AH-64D (total 48)

Flag of Japan Japan
* Japan Ground Self-Defense Force 2 x AH-64DJP

Flag of Kuwait Kuwait
* Kuwait Air Force 6 x AH-64D

Flag of the Netherlands Netherlands
* Royal Netherlands Air Force 25 x AH-64D (one crashed and four sold)

Flag of Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia
* Royal Saudi Air Force 12 x AH-64A

Flag of Singapore Singapore
* Republic of Singapore Air Force 18 x AH-64D

Flag of the United Arab Emirates United Arab Emirates
* United Arab Emirates Air Force 12 x AH-64A, 14 x AH-64D (total 26)

Flag of the United States United States
* United States Army 241 x AH-64A, 457 AH-64D (total 698)

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ColombianoGringo says on May 27, 2008, 11:38:

Both aspects of this rumor have been denied by Santos and others in the government. Supposedly, the visit has nothing to do with arms sales to either Colombia or Venezuela. That's the official story at least.

http://elespectador.com/noticias/politica/articulo-colombia-no-pedira-...

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romy says on May 27, 2008, 11:39:

the militarization of the south continues... where in the world will the next war sprout?

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Simon says on May 27, 2008, 11:41:

". Purchasing cheap transport helicopters and upgrading those ancient armored cars makes sense, but the other items simply escalate an expensive arms race they can't win."


Says who? And why can't we win this arms race?

BTW, reminder to Tinto, Colombia is a sovereign nation and can buy whatever it wants from whoever the hell it wants!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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slguy says on May 27, 2008, 11:45:

"...and can buy whatever the hell it wants from from whoever it wants!"

blatant crap, simon. colombia can't buy what no one will sell them.

in addition, any arms race colombia involves itself in would be counterproductive - colombia, like all countries, has better places to spend the money. especially since it's HIGHLY unlikely even el payaso would dare risk the military wrath of the US by attacking colombia.

as to why colombia couldn't win an arms race - pretty simple. have you ANY idea how much cash those venezuelan oil fields generate?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Simon says on May 27, 2008, 11:49:

I meant that no foreigner should be telling Colombia what to buy or not to buy.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Tinto (Moderator) says on May 27, 2008, 11:49:

Simon, you're sounding silly again.

Colombia cannot win an arms race against Venezuela. Uribe doesn't have the same power or purse as Chavez.

Of course Colombia can buy from whomever they choose (edit to add: assuming there is a willing seller... Thanks SlyGuy) but some of the super expensive toys aren't much use against the FARC. And the hundreds of millions or low billions that these systems cost divert precious resources -- maybe it would be a better idea to get control of the countryside through "conventional" means and let the two or three million displaced go back home.

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romy says on May 27, 2008, 11:50:

"Simon, you're sounding silly again"
can anybody point to a post where he wasn't? I thought he was funny all the time, part of his character type of thing.

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Simon says on May 27, 2008, 11:55:

Oh really? Colombia's defense budget is larger than Venezuela's. And it's armed forces is twice as large. So as much as you'd want for Colombia to lose, it ain't gonna happen!


COLOMBIA (includes army, navy, air force)

Regular troops: 254,300

Reservists: 61,900

National Police: 136,000 (many combat-trained and equipped).

Hardware: 115 combat-capable aircraft, including 22 ground-attack fighters, among them Mirages and Kfirs. Four surface combat ships

Defense budget in 2007: $5.1 billion

VENEZUELA (includes army, navy, air force, national huard):

Regular troops: 115,000

Reservists: 280,000 (estimated, fighting capability unknown)

Hardware: 94 combat-capable aircraft including 68 fighter jets including Sukhois, F-16s and Mirages. Recent military purchases include 53 helicopters, two dozen SU-30 Sukhoi fighter jets and 100,000 Kalashnikov assault rifles. Six surface combat ships.

Defense budget in 2007: $2.56 billion

Source: International Institute for Strategic Studies, AP



And what's truly silly is someone from the country that spends the most on defense in the whole world criticizing other countries about their defense spending!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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papiChulo says on May 27, 2008, 12:01:

I'd put my money on Colombia even if they had less troops and equipment.

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slguy says on May 27, 2008, 12:01:

"And what's truly silly is someone from the country that spends the most on defense in the whole world criticizing countries about their defense spending!"

almost as silly as a country's shrillest defender being shrill from within the embrace of the world's biggest defense budget - not from colombia.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Tinto (Moderator) says on May 27, 2008, 12:03:

Simon, I didn't make a blanket criticism of Colombia's defense expenditures. I said the ultra high tech and ultra expensive weapons systems are not what they need to defeat the FARC and gain control of the country. Ask some Colombian soldiers what has helped them recently and what they need more of -- they're not going to say attack helicopters and fighter jets.

BTW, I criticize US military spending too. We don't need more aircraft carriers, we don't need to spend $6 billion (now $12 billion) on a new fleet of Presidential helicopters (aka Marine One), etc, etc, etc.

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quantum says on May 27, 2008, 12:04:

Interesting data youve brought up here Simon. Didnt realize that myself. But where do u think a significant portion of the money to finance Colombias military budget comes from? And he who pays the piper................u know how it goes. Not to say that if they couldnt get it from one side they wouldnt go shopping on the other.

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Simon says on May 27, 2008, 12:04:

"almost as silly as a country's shrillest defender being shrill from within the embrace of the world's biggest defense budget - not from colombia."

Slguy, I divide my time between both countries and nowhere have I attacked the US out of the blue.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Simon says on May 27, 2008, 12:07:

"BTW, I criticize US military spending too. We don't need more aircraft carriers, we don't need to spend $6 billion (now $12 billion) on a new fleet of Presidential helicopters (aka Marine One), etc, etc, etc."

Well, I sure wish Colombia had an aircraft carrier! We never know when that crazy Chavez, Correa, or Ortega might attack Colombia, so we should be prepared with high tech and ultra expensive weapons systems.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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slguy says on May 27, 2008, 12:14:

in another thread, simon, you said you were last in colombia in february, last in medellin in 2006. sounds more like visiting to me - but i'd claim "dividing my time" too, if i were you. ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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juancegomez says on May 27, 2008, 12:15:

This could be either an exaggeration and de-contextualization of what is actually going to be discussed during the visit (and either few weapons or none at all are part of those talks), or it was just quickly shoved under the table to avoid any pesky questions.

We will see, as any big sales will become rather public, but I don't honestly expect Russia to stop selling weapons to Chavez.

Even so...Colombia has actually bought, in small quantities that cannot be compared to Venezuela's, several weapons from Russia before.

I don't see why that would stop though, or how it would represent a radical shift as the head line indicates.

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Simon says on May 27, 2008, 12:16:

The last time I was in Colombia, in February, I was living there. And I did visit Medellin last in 2006, I don't live there!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Tinto (Moderator) says on May 27, 2008, 12:17:

I watched a video once that was taken by the Ejercito de Colombia in 2002. It shows a group of soldiers moving through the jungle and taking fire from the FARC. It's noisy as hell. The FARC captures a group of soldiers, takes the Army's video camera and then turns it on their captives. You see a bunch of soldiers kneeling - some crying or praying or begging not to be shot. In addition to seeing the war "up close" another thing that stayed with me is that the Colombian Army sent their soldiers into battle without helmets. When they all have good boots, a modern helmet and maybe even body armor, then it's time to discuss whether the "toys" are necessary.

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papiChulo says on May 27, 2008, 12:24:

Tinto... I was told by some aussie vietnam vets that they didn't use helmets in the jungle there either. Can't remember why exactly... maybe because of the heat and found them cumbersome.

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Simon says on May 27, 2008, 12:25:

The Colombian armed forces have improved greatly since 2002.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wFg-_S9QEYU&feature=related

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Tinto (Moderator) says on May 27, 2008, 12:34:

Yes, the armed forces are getting better -- more professional and more effective. What's troubling is that some of the standard issue equipment is not very durable/not very good and the authorized sources for the good stuff have VERY high prices. I know soldiers around the world have complaints about equipment but when the cost for good, basic items in Colombia is far more than US retail and considering the salary differences... someone is making a lot of money on a juicy supply contract and soldiers are going without what they need.

Another anecdote:
On the plus side helmets are more widespread, on the negative side a friend of a friend is trying to procure helmet covers for his men and can't get them. Kind of defeats the purpose of the new Colombian digital woodland camo when your head stands out/makes a nice target in an uninterrupted pattern of olive drab green.

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Robert Jorge says on May 27, 2008, 12:43:

What Colombia needs are helicopters like the good ole "Huey" and "Blackhawk". And unless I was scopalmined(sp?) and hallucinating, I saw plenty of those flying in and out of the 7th Brigade in Villavicencio, and the little AFB just past the Army base. I have met perhaps a dozen Colombian military helicopter pilots training right here in the US. Choppers like the Apache would be ridiculous for the Colombian to have .... not necesarry, useless, and prohibitively expensive. They are made to kill tanks and armoured vehicles from a distance. But close air support for fighting pinko guerillas, the Colombians are already armed with what they need.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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Tinto (Moderator) says on May 27, 2008, 12:51:

Good point, Juancegomez -- Colombia has a number of large Russian transport helicopters right now.

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Simon says on May 27, 2008, 14:09:

"can anybody point to a post where he wasn't? I thought he was funny all the time, part of his character type of thing."

Ser un Colombiano decente debe ser chistoso para los antisociales.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Mr. Hollywood says on May 27, 2008, 16:23:

Colombia already knows full well the value of simple (relatively), practical weapons over super-expensive high tech. Just look at the havoc they've wreaked in the last months on the FARC just using their 14 Brazilian Super-Tucano aircraft. Those things have more in common with a WWII era P-51 than they do with a stealth fighter, and they're perfect weapon for taking out scumbags like Reyes.

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papiChulo says on May 27, 2008, 17:17:

That Brazilian Super-Tucano is a good little aircaft for the job indeed... you're sopt on mr Hollywood.

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Robert Jorge says on May 27, 2008, 17:26:

I think the Colombian military still uses US WWII vintage P38s. I know I saw them flying around down there. I just did a quick search, and Colombia is on the list of countries that had / have P38s, but they are listed as "civilian"??? Anyway, they are awesome planes for close air support / ground attack. 4x50 caliber machine guns and a 20mm cannon. If I am correct, and Colombia does have these, they would be worth a look-see by military history buffs.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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Mr. Hollywood says on May 27, 2008, 18:03:

"Civilian" P38s. Maybe some paraco had an air wing in his "security detail."

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