In Defense of Free Speech...

Lauthra says on Jan 23, 2005, 13:18:

Too bad... Cos the vast majority don't like trolls, so we had to get rid of them. This site reminds me more of the Lord of The Flies each day...

Nato ;)

Nato (='.'=)

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Save the Wildcats says on Jan 23, 2005, 13:20:

Good point... I'm all for free speech, even opinions I don't like; I realize I'm free to leave anytime. And I would, if I wanted to, but most of the people here are enjoyable to me so I stay despite the occasional USA women-bashing.

You brought up some good points - I'm against censorship, per se, but don't you think the site loses something when a lot of the posts are titled, "so-and-so is a cocksucker" or something like that? The problem with trolls is they attend to attack and disrupt, and get off topic quickly with their personal attacks. I'm all for banning someone who is simply here to start trouble.

Just

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Peter (Moderator) says on Jan 23, 2005, 13:21:

There is a difference between discussion and trolling. If you have xome experience with online discussions, you'll know that ALL discussions attract trolls. They want negative attention that's it. I encourage discussion on this site, but the rules are clear: no personal attacks. If you give a party at your house, do you not throw out someone who is ruining it for everyone else?

Poor but snappy

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oldbongo says on Jan 23, 2005, 13:22:

you know.. smart people do dumb things sometimes...

then, if they're really smart, they accept it.

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Save the Wildcats says on Jan 23, 2005, 13:29:

And, you know... I think I can learn something from every single person on this site (even the bashers have some good ideas sometimes) - *if they want to talk reasonably*. Some of these people just want to start trouble; they don't want an intelligent discussion. Which of course, is their right, but it's Peter's right to ban them if there here just to piss people off, too. And - travelling to a dangerous country is different than filling your mind with hateful garbage, at least to me.

Kim

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 23, 2005, 13:31:

the speech is free however, and as you said it yourself, we're all adults here and as adults we are responsible for our words and actions. Trolling is not exercising free speech; it's quite the opposite because it disrupts and destroys an ongoing dialogue, turns a perfectly normal thread into a meaningless battleground and buries information and debate under a heap of manure.
Peter is the owner and administrator of the site; this is his baby and it's him who has set the ground rules here and when you register here as a member you also agree to follow those rules. As in any adult society you're responsible for your own behaviour. I don't think there's anybody here who advocates censorship but few who like to be insulted by vulgar and obscene language.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Sonny says on Jan 23, 2005, 13:43:

albatross Interesting thoughts you have. We all have the right to come and go, speak or not speak, smile or not smile. You have a right to even smoke but I as do many others have a right to not breath that smoke. Don't you agree?. Speaking your mind is a good thing. Writing trash just to disrupt is another. Is Colombia that bad? Have you been there lately and noticed the clean up on the streets. Have you been reading about the arrests being made for drug dealers? Have you watched first hand the help westerners get from the Police there? I have. I don't see Colombia any different then the USA other then it is new to honest laws which they are trying very hard to uphold. Like a child growing up I guess. A new President that ins't on the take. Maybe they have a long way to go in some areas but as much as the try to go forward we are going backward. Telling people to ignore the "TROLL" he or she will go away.Is that a way to deal with a problem? One of our problems is that we as Americans have long ignored to many issues that we now face as problems. We can surly see other countries problems yet we sometimes have a problem seeing our own. Maybe we could stop ignoring problems with the hope they will just go away and deal with them now before they become 911's, kidnappings, Drug dealers to our children or something worse we ignore. You get the my point I am sure. Rights are what some of us fought for (I did) and many have died for. No one appreciates or respects those rights any more then I do I promise but that does not mean that I have to set by and ignore what I feel is a very bad problem, (my right). I also can leave but I would rather stay and offer something positive. At least it is clean and open for talk. It is just my feeling as you have yours.

Friends???? How do you place a value on that?? They are like memories, without them you have nothing

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Gator says on Jan 23, 2005, 14:01:

Thank Desi-as Usual, Very Insightful. "Free Speech" has nothing to do with it. This is a PRIVATE site to which you must apply and be accepted. If you want free speech find a soapbox in a public park and use that to vent what ever view you choose.

I, personally, joined this site for one reason-to provide help for those planning to move to or travel in Colombia.

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

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fzrdan says on Jan 23, 2005, 14:24:

I think many people need to get a thicker skin and stop taking everything so personally (in general, not just this site). Society is worse off now with all the political correctness and other garbage like that. Why let some anonymous (in the case of this site) person get under your skin so easily?

That being said, Peter does own this site. He has the right to have whatever rules he likes. If any of us don't like them, too bad. We can and should go somewhere else. We don't own this site. We don't have the right to make rules for it. Peter is not obligated to make any of us happy. He does with this site what makes him happy.

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 23, 2005, 17:08:

The site IS "an anarchical mess of rude dialogue". Peter shows a lot more self-restraint than I would.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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ColombianoNY says on Jan 23, 2005, 17:13:

Just abide by the rules This site created by Peter helps us learn more about Colombia, we get information on various topics, why should a troll affect what this discussion is all about. Trolls just dont have a life..

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dwmte says on Jan 23, 2005, 17:38:

anybody else's liberty/freedom.... ends where mine/your's begins. period.

those who, out of their fear, feelings of inferiority, or shame/guilt need to redicule or offend others simply have no right to do so. not here, not in a public park, not in my home, nor yours. as a society, we have repulsed those above mentioned since the beginning. we are able to live together in community, by co-mingling, in unity.

all this about we're not thick skinned enough to put up with it. listen, like the above said, many of us fought for these freedoms we often speak so casually about. too, way to many have died for them. so i don't take some butt hole, here, timbuctu, west hell italy or moscow, or anywhere getting in my face, your face or anyones, with no other adjenda than to hurt/harm/insult/defame. bullshit.

i've probably lived in situations in colombia that you've never imagined, witnessed the un-holy low enough to make you puke and survived situations that many would have died in. i know a lot about our lovely colombia...even her dark places. and, brother, even in those, i wont put up with someone in my face or yours. not with will to destroy or harm. not now, not then, not ever. you have laws in your home, we have laws in our society. let's not fool ourselves.

those who work ill, like cancer, are expelled. everywhere.

peace,

dw

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Albatross says on Jan 23, 2005, 17:45:

Cowboy I agree, Peter does show alot of restraint... as he should.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 23, 2005, 17:50:

Signal to Noise Ratio I learned long ago that the key to the quality of a BBS (ain't that a quaint term?), blog or whatever is the signal to noise ratio. When the noise (such as those obscene posts by Parce or the nonsensical ones by Zagrise) level gets to high, it simply drowns out the qualities that make the site valuable in the first place.

Kudos to Peter for booting people who destroy the quality of his site.

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oldbongo says on Jan 23, 2005, 17:52:

would one of you.. moderator types please let the oldgringo
know when he is becoming too flippant.

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fzrdan says on Jan 23, 2005, 20:14:

It is great when people say they have done/seen things that others have not even imagined. Nobody on this site knows me from Adam. I would say most people on this site don't know anyone else on this site personally.

I will stick by my thick skinned statement. People are way too damn sensitive. Get over it. If you don't like someone in your face, take care of it. If you don't like someone in your house, take care of it. If you don't like what someone posts here, ignore it. If it gets bad enough, the moderators and Peter can take care of it.

Why can't we all just get along? Because that is a dream that will never be reality. If you think otherwise you are living in a dream.

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Lionheart says on Jan 23, 2005, 20:25:

decision, decisions, decisions This thread alone shows about all the different opinions members of a forum can have about trolls, tolerance, patience, and freedom of speech.

Peter shows a huge amount of self-restraint, but because he doesn't have the time to constantly control the forums glitches can happen. Tinto and I are almost daily in PBH, so we can keep an eye out for bad things better, which is why Peter made us moderators. Bur at the same time, we want to be able to fill his shoes accordingly here and reflect his judgement and rules as well as possible.

Hollywood used a good term from broadcasting, the signal-noise ratio. Basically it means if the noise from trolls and those responding to trolls becomes so loud that the purpose of a thread has come to a dead stop, it is time to close the thread. Please note what I just wrote here - it takes two to tango. The best way to save a thread is to ignore a troll. If the troll gets too annoying s/he will be warned and banned, if needed. The more others respond to a troll the louder the noise gets.

There is one main rule to ban immediately, that is personal attacts and insults. These can happen in many ways, either by name-calling, or by disrecting the standards of respect for a persons religion, race, heritage, political opinion, etc. And this is where I want to add one piece of information that many posters forget or just don't realize. Please consider that people from other cultures can have other sensitivities. Just as an example, I have seen many quick references made to nazis and jews here. For many this has a very bad taste, and many can also get very upset about this. So think twice before you start bringing in comparisons like those.

As for us moderators, we moderate, we aren't the special forces to eliminate all evil-doers at once. It is all of us keeping the forum going in a good way, accepting and respecting each other.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 23, 2005, 21:10:

Even constitutiional/democratic governmental institutions have.. limits on free speech. For example, while the 1st amendment of the US constitution affords Americans a level of free speech that is paralleled by few countries, it too has it's limits.
1 You cannot yell fire in a crowed room, when there is no fire.
That is a crime
2..You cannot extort money if you are a public official. That is a crime.
3. You cannot use your telephone to make harassing phone calls to
other people. That is a crime
4. You cannot attack someone’s personal integrity in such a way that it
will do damage to their character if what you are saying is NOT
true. That is a violation of civil law
5. If you committ a crime while using "hate speech" the exacerbation
of the underlying offense will result in a new crime in addition
to the underlying offense.
6. You cannot in a public or private place, make any statement that
would constitute a threat of terrorist, or terrorist- like activity.
That is a very serious crime that is guaranteed to land you in
either a state or federal penal institution.

The above is just an example of how even in a country where freedom of speech is a fundimental part of the US Constitution, and is in fact our first Bill of the 10 Bill of Rights, absolute limits can be place on speech.

Taking all the above into consideration, it should be very clear that when a communication medium is privately owned, privately funded and was created not by the public at large but by one individual, it is the essence of rediculusness to say that this person cannot cannot put limits of ANY kind as to what is said and not said on his board. It is his board, and his property. I defend Peter's right to control, the conduct of this board, without restrictions.

Peter has clearly demonstrated that he places a premium on allowing people to speak their peace. He has, in my opinion exercised remarkable restraint.

Language that is inflamatory as a result of foul language directed toward any one or several individuals, or language occuring as a result of sweeping generalizations against any particular ethnicity or nationality, does not deserve the right to participate in this forum or any other forum where intellectual and meaningfull discussion is encouraged.

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Albatross says on Jan 24, 2005, 05:41:

For What It's Worth... I think this makes my point better than I did...

"Political Correctness is the communal tyranny that erupted in the 1980s. It was a spontaneous declaration that particular ideas, expressions and behavior, which were then legal, should be forbidden by law."

"Political Correctness is preaching intolerance. It tells us to castigate those whose lifestyle choices we do not share... The harm of the PC attitude is not that it tries to make us talk differently but that it tries to destroy the easy-going glue of tolerance which holds a civilized society together. It seeks to turn us against each other, and to turn INTOLERANCE INTO A VIRTUE."

"To attempt to point out the odious nature of Political Correctness is to restate the crucial importance of plain speaking, freedom of choice and freedom of speech; these are the communities safe-guards against the imposition of tyranny, indeed their absence is tyranny which is why any such restrictions on expression such as those invoked by the laws of libel, slander and public decency, are grave matters to be decided by common law methodology; not by the dictates of the mob."

"All must accept the notions of the Politically Correct as truth, or else! This is the same mentality that inspired the Inquisition and forced Galileo to recant; the same mentality that inspired the Nazis and obtained the Holocaust. Once expression gets placed in a straitjacket of official truth, then the madness that occurs in all totalitarian states is obtained. Life, in private and public, becomes a meaningless charade where delusion thrives and terror rules."


Sources:

www.adamsmith.org/blog/archives/000155.php (UK Site)
www.ourcivilisation.com/pc.htm (Australian Site)

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jan 24, 2005, 05:50:

Good summary...I take back all my laughter everytime I have heard the joke "what do you call 50 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean." ;-)

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dwmte says on Jan 24, 2005, 06:04:

common, coffee... what do you call 50 abogados abajo el mar?

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