Importing cultural traditions

utopiacowboy says on Jun 13, 2005, 16:15:

Reminds me of the guy from some Arab country who posted on VisaJourney inquiring if he could bring his several wives when he emigrated to the United States. Now that thread drew a lot of responses.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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kernow62 says on Jun 13, 2005, 16:17:

You know you are going to have trouble defeating an enemy when they can put up with multitudes of wives!

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BlanquitoTampa says on Jun 13, 2005, 17:18:

kernow... plus, they are going to heaven, having been through hell enough...

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 14, 2005, 10:41:

in some cases, yes I would say that it's best to leave your baggage behind. I have no problem with live-in-maids (complying with the labour regulations and laws of the new country), most religious practices (not all, by far!), but there's only that much you should carry with you.

I would expect the immigrants to Sweden to respect our laws and norms about the child rearing (corporal punishment is strictly forbidden here), respect our concept of time and not be late to school or work every day, that we take a very dim view on honour murder and inbreeding, sexual mutilation of girls, domestic violence, blood feuds.

Take along your language and your religion, your art and music, your cooking and your festivals and holidays, everything that enriches the life and makes it more colourful, more interesting, more nuanced.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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adrimm says on Jun 14, 2005, 12:27:

But Desi, On the issue of live-in maids, even if their employment ternms comply with the letter of the law, their level of social standing from their employer's perspective cannot be legistlated. A wealthy immigrant who takes pride in being waited on (rather than caring for themselves and being independent) can still be demeaning to his or her staff. I guess the employee/maid could leave, but if the employee has a similar cultural background then they might just take it "becuase".

It is like the indian tradition of bride dowry, although in a new country a "gift of money" is easily legal in the eyes of the law, nothing can change the reasons why a bride's family might feel obligated to "give" the groom's family tons of cash.

No spanking of kids in Sweden? Wow, does it work and people actually not spank their kids?

I also played with the house maids or their kids on my visits to Colombia, and I really think that your treatment of your help was singularly excellent, but not very common. When I went to loan a blouse to one of the maids who was my friend my aunt got very angry with me, called her sucia and puerca. My aunt was civil to the maids and they certainly ate what the family ate, but for her to say such things about my friend was very hurtful.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 14, 2005, 12:49:

no spanking in Sweden, adri and even the tiniest kids know that it's not allowed. Yes, I would have to admit that some parents do slap their kids on the bottom, but even if you get angered at your child knowing that the social authorities will intervene and perhaps place your child at a foster home if you can't keep your hands to yourself is a powerful deterrent.

I've worked with children most of my life and I suppose Swedish kids are generally no better or worse than anywhere else. They are open, affectionate, playful and self-assured, but sometimes you have to talk very strictly with them to make them understand that there are certain limits that you can't forget.Every day-care worker or school personnel has an obligation to report to social authorities any signs of physical abuse. This obligation overrides the secrecy clause in our work contract. I'd say, yes, it works. You can raise up your kids to normal, well-behaving citizens without recurring to physical abuse.

About immigrants and their maids, yes, the possibility remains that some wealthy immigrants (diplomatic personnel et al) can import a house servant or a maid or two from the home country and that these people would take for granted being exploited or demeaned if that's the norm in their society. I've also heard of cleaning ladies from Eastern European countries that work illegally; not paying taxes on their income or belong to the social security system. It's a rather small group, however. We're having a much more serious problem with the "working girls" from Russia, Estonia, Poland and adjacent Eastern European countries who work illegally here.

I don't know, adri, I have heard also of some people who treat their maids poorly in Colombia, but that was not the case at my in-laws. They were never verbally or otherwise abused. I remember once when I travelled to Cali and my suitcase didn't come with the same flight that the maid's daughter loaned me some of her own clothes to wear meanwhile. Every time I came there she had my room ready with fresh flowers and magazines on the night table.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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caslug says on Jun 14, 2005, 13:23:

what's wrong w/ dowry?.. Western tradition for the longest time stated that bride's family pays for the wedding. Cultural traditional like dowry DOES NOT cause cultural anomosity. However, if muslim slaughter their sheeps in public(like they do it their home country) for religous festivities then it would cause some "local" to be VERY uncomfortable. So here in the US, they cont. doing it, but not in public. hence no problem.

if "new" cultural tradition doesn't offend locals, then i don't see why it couldn't be continue. Example, in casinos in COL, tipping the dealer for good hand IS NOT NORMAL..Yet, i do it all the time(because it's the norm in US). The local COL players look me oddly, but the dealer really appreciate it. I'm importing my(US) culture to COL, but it's not hurting anyone.

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vladimiro says on Jun 14, 2005, 13:35:

Might not have a choice But some countries are more tolerant and change thier laws to accommodate immigrants. The UK, for instance, is very accommadating to immigrants in comparison to some European countries. They are always coming up with special laws just for them. Maybe its because they have such a large Indian/Pakistani comunity? There has been popular resentment from those who believe foriegners should obey English law like the rest of the English, but to the goverments credit it disregards the resentment.

"However, if muslim slaughter their sheeps in public" - during christmas in Medellin streets are closed and pigs are slaughtered live in the crowded street; in Bogota Ive heard the tradition is to slaughter sheep.

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adrimm says on Jun 14, 2005, 14:16:

Dowry is bad becuase it can actually makes a bride a money-object and can be used to justify extortion. I'm not saying extorion is the norm in all places where it happens, but in some places it is well documented as being a huge problem.

Most of the weddings I have been to have had costs borne by both families or the couple themselves. Even where the bride's family assumes financial responsibility I can't imagine a couple *not* getting married becuase her family can't put on a celebration of X magnitude.

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caslug says on Jun 14, 2005, 14:41:

While even the Strict interpertation of dowry.. is happen within some immigrant communities in US/CAD. It's not making the mainstream sociaty "uncomfortable" as other "imported" cultural traditions. It's not affecting anyone outside of that community(immigrant). AND since the bride/groom are living in a new country w/ it's own sets of laws/culture. THEY can decide if they want to follow the "old" or go w/ the "new". So there's need for the "outside" community to force changes, it'll happen anyway. Plus no one is forcing the bride to marry THAT particular guy. That's my point.

I had friends in college from Laos(Hmong), they were mountains tribes. In laos the bride's family gives livestock to the groom as dowdry. When they came to the US(via CIA), the dowry morphed into money(5-15k USD in 1988). EVEN w/ that, my friends told me that it was NEVER an obstacle in marry the girl THEY wanted. If the couple were in love and both wanted it to happen, the dowdry number gets negoiated to a acceptable amount.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 15, 2005, 00:51:

and when it's not voluntary but forced upon the younger generation by their parents and relatives then I would say it shouldn't be tolerated, not in a country like Sweden that has a legislation and long-time tradition ensuring the equality of sexes and individual freedom to make your own choices.
Some of our recent immigrants from Near East are following their tribal customs of forcing their daughters into marriages not of their own choice, but to keep the wealth of the family from spreading and the old-country values and lifestyles vigent even when they have chosen to live in this society. A few of the daughters have had to pay with their lives for choosing a Swedish boyfriend or fiancé and I find this totally unacceptable.

I don't consider not following the laws in your country of residence an acceptable choice.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Colombiche says on Jun 15, 2005, 06:54:

Here in Canada there are Somali families that still take their young daughters to some butcher with a knife to get them infibulated or circumcised. Some young girls have died in the process.

I think that is sheer savaragery and there is no room for that in a civilized country like Canada. I think Canada should put these people in jail for putting a child through this kind of pain and abuse. To hell with their freaking customs. If their customs are so great, why are they one of the poorest 5 nations in the world and why are they flocking here in the thousands?

If a Canadian was to go to Somalia he or she would have to abide by their rules. I have a friend that lived in Saudi Arabia for 2 years, she could not leave her housing complex without her husband and had to wear a veil on her head and cover her ankles at all times.

Here in my company, there was an opening for a job in Dubai. OUt of sheer curiosity, I looked into it and found out that I was not eligible for the position because I am a single 27 year old girl and I have to have a husband who is my "guardian" in order to live in that country. Not interested in that position anymore.

I just wonder why people from the 3rd world have this idea that they can import all their customs and way of life into their host countries, but when people visit their countries they do have to abide by their rules.

Hey, as I colombiana living in Canada, I think we should respect the country that we are living in, or else get the hell out.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Jun 15, 2005, 06:55:

i meant savagery, sorry I have butterfingers.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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platano says on Jun 15, 2005, 07:02:

Colombiche, Since you brought up the subject of genital mutilation...

Male genital mutilation is practised in the USA. In fact, the USA is the only country in the world that circumcises the majority of its newborn boys without medical or religious reason. Doesn't get as much press as female genital mutilation. But the effects are life-long.

Plátano, el banano verde
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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Colombiche says on Jun 15, 2005, 07:41:

Platano Go the following links for detailed descriptions of female infibulation:

http://www.angelfire.com/ar/pilgrim/infibdesc.html

http://www.circumstitions.com/FGM-defined.html

I would hardly put the circumsicion of a newborn baby boy at the same level of atrocity as this. Circumsicions in the states are performed in hospitals under sanitary conditions that are never life threatening to the baby. I know many many "cut" males, who function perfectly in every way and experience no pain or problems as a consequence.

Many of these women however, experience complications during intercourse and childbirth.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Rubiazo says on Jun 15, 2005, 08:05:

Re: the Somails in Canada That shit is a big part of why I no longer live in Canada. It's incredible how they just turn the other way in the name of 'liberalism' and let people do that stuff.

Platano: at least 50% of the males in Canada have been circumcised. .The only reason it's not 80% like it is in the USA is because of such high immigration. I'm not wildly in favor of either. My wife wanted to have our son cut (I'm not cut) and I wasn't in favor of it but I let her convince me. I'm still not sure it was such a good idea.

But it hardly compares to what girls go through if they are circumcised. I've seen a video of it made somewhere in Ethiopia. They actually used a fucking SHARD OF BROKEN GLASS FROM A COKE BOTTLE!!! And they staunch the bleeding with MUD FROM A NEARBY STREAM. Even if done with anasthesia in a proper sterilized setting, you can't compare losing a foreskin to losing a clitoris. As if women don't already have enough EMOTIONAL problems achieving orgasm!!!!

BTW there are rural areas of Latin American countries where they do this too, and Colombia is at the top of the list!! It's hard for me to believe but I've only been in cosmopolitan Bogota so I can imagine the campo is very different there.

I truly do believe as well that importing cultural practises is generally not a good thing, at least to the extent where it clashes with the society you are now living in.

We certainly have our share of it in NYC i.e.
People who have been here for DECADES and still can't put two words of English together. WTF you idiots, I speak 5 languages, you can't speak 2???? That one for the most part goes out to the Latin Americans too. Russians who come here generally learn English fluently, plus speak Russian in the community AND Hebrew at home. All the Chinese speak multiple languages etc.

People who grew up in countries where it is considered acceptable to be an hour or more late for work not understanding why they keep losing their jobs here. This is unbelievably common here.

People who, in a city of 20 million people, will seek out people from their own country to do business with. They usually end up getting taken advantage of in the process. For example, I have a Dominican friend with whom I was playing a gig in Brooklyn, in a Mexican neighborhood. Rather than go back with a Mexican cab driver, he had us waiting over an HOUR so his Dominican homie could swing by way out of his way. I told him he could pay the fucking cab himself (the guy wanted more money too for going so far out of his way!!)

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vladimiro says on Jun 15, 2005, 08:05:

Imported culture "A few of the daughters have had to pay with their lives for choosing a Swedish boyfriend or fiancé and I find this totally unacceptable."

Have a look at Human Rights Watch. The practice has various names, goes beyond cultures and religion, and is most common in Latin America where its called "crimes of passion" which are legal(that is, according to Human rights Watch you will not be prosecuted for shooting your wife if you can prove she cheated on you).

Yet the fraction of cases that occur in the Near East are the ones focused on by western media. Similarily, if you were to believe the news and media in the US it would seem the majority of kidnappings of children are committed by Middle Easterners taking thier kids to the MidEast, yet %90 of kidnappings in the US are comitted by Americans whom mostly take the kids to Mexico....

If you compare the stats at Human Rights Watch to what the media reports and general opinion, it would seem that there is an undercurrent of racism driving most of these complaints against immigrants.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 15, 2005, 08:18:

those are two separate issues And Colombia and Brazil have both changed their laws so that this is no longer legal in any way, shape, or form. It was always considered a weak defense but there was the odd crazy judge who would aquit defendants. Now they could get de-benched for it.

Vladimiro, whatever Human Rights Watch says, I will never forget the time I was out on a date in Toronto and some Somali dickhead was yelling at me because he was upset I wasn't making the girl walk three steps behind me like females were supposed to do!!

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adrimm says on Jun 15, 2005, 08:21:

Happened here too An east Indian daughter was stabbed to death by her father for going out with a kid who wasn't east-indian. That's really extremist though.

I had more in mind the quieter cultural traditions that reinforce the attitudes behind all derogatory behaviour.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 15, 2005, 08:25:

vladimiro, It's not my intention to point out the statistics of a specific area or culture that exports it's cultural practices to other countries. I'm not pointing a finger, just stating an example of real life, from my own community. They are called "honour murder" as translated from Swedish, but I don't know the right term in Arabic for it. It's a cultural tradition in some areas in Middle East to kill a daughter who has strayed beyonf d the control of her parents and who will not obey the family. I'm sure you are much more familiar with the concept than me, but it is not the same as crimes of passion. It's a method of social control over the women of the family, not a spontaneous act of killing an unfaithful lover or wife or both out of jealousy. We are talking of two totally different things here.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 15, 2005, 08:30:

PBH - where you can go to get misinformation 24x7. No, the US is not the only country which practices circumcision. Most male children in Canada were also circumcised for a long period of time. In both Canada and the US, the practice seems to be gradually disappearing. My sons are not circumsized but I along with almost every other male of my generation is. I remember we had a guy at school who was uncircumsized. He would refuse to change in the locker room with the rest of us because he was ashamed of his natural equipment.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Jun 15, 2005, 08:31:

Rubiazo More often than not, I have noticed that your points of view coincide with mine. I love Canada very much, but I am so angered at seeing how Canadians are such huge WIMPS, they let anybody come in and dictate how to run their country. I was so pissed off when Sikh policemen were allowed to wear a freaking turban instead of the traditional Canadian police head gear. I though, wow, if I become a copper, maybe I can wear a ruana and a carriel too, and instead of gun, I will carry a machete!!!

What a big joke. I also agree with your statement to platano. You cannot compare male circumsicion in North America to infibulation of a female in Africa. I can't even bring myself to believe that somebody will compare the two, that is preposterous.These girls are butchered. A boy who loses a bit of foreskin is nothing compared to a girl that has all her genitals mutilated, is totally barred from every feeling pleasure again and will be experiencing excruciating pain during intercourse and chilbirth.


I don't believe that female circumsicion is a common practice in colombia. Heck, I don't even think that it is practiced at all Rubiazo. Please find me some reliable stats or studies that prove me wrong. I have never, ever heard of this occurring in Colombia.

AS for Latinos in the states trying to find their own kind.. many other cultures do this to. Actually, some cultures like Chinese, Vietnamese and east Indian are more guilty of this crime than Latinos themselves.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Rubiazo says on Jun 15, 2005, 08:33:

I was always proud to sport the aardvark. :)))))))
My ex-wife actually wanted me to take it off. I will not repeat what I said to her as it's probably too offensive even for PBH!!!
That's also a big part of why she is my ex-wife!

BTW in Colombia 50% of males (give or take) are cut. Same as in Canada.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 15, 2005, 08:43:

can you give us the source for those statistics, rubiazo? (BTW in Colombia 50% of males (give or take) are cut). It doesn't sound right. Circumcision is practiced in Colombia too, but only for medical reasons. Most male babies don't have a medical reason for cutting. I very seriously doubt that circumcision is generally practiced outside the larger cities at all.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 15, 2005, 08:49:

Not that my wife had a lot of experience with male genitalia but I was the first man she ever encountered who was circumsized. She said at first she didn't know what had happened to it but she was afraid to ask! So no, circumcision is very uncommon in Colombia.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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lpdiver says on Jun 15, 2005, 08:57:

MY wife thought There was something wrong with me. I am circumsized.

T

"cook some rice!"

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 15, 2005, 09:12:

Being no expert on male genitalia myself I would have to agree with utopia and diver's wives. I've been told that it's really quite uncommon. I remember asking when my son was born, since I knew it was customary in the US at that time, and the answer was the one I gave in my previous post. "If there's a medical reason for it, certainly. Not customary in Colombia".
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Rubiazo says on Jun 15, 2005, 13:34:

I hope I was wrong About the % in colombia. It's a totally unnecessary procedure anyways IMO.

On the same documentary where they showed the Ethiopians going at it, they mentioned that it happened in places such as Colombia, Venezuela, and Brazil as well, but not with nearly as much frequency as in North Africa. I can't verify that, and like I said, I really have a hard time believing it!

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juanalejo says on Jun 15, 2005, 14:16:

Circumcision I do not know about your experiences, but everytime a baby boy is born to any of my friends, babies are circumsized. I have never even thought about it as abnormal or strange to be done, on the contrary if somebody decides not to circumsize, there is always the question of why not? I had a friend who was not and had to have it not long ago and most of us guys who were visiting him, were joking about being thankful to our mothers for not having to go through that pain when grown up. It is not big issue, it is simply done and the insurance companies pay for it. Now I can imagine at a certain economic level when people can not afford it, they do not do it. But to my personal experience it is most of the time done.

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Lionheart says on Jun 15, 2005, 14:43:

it is common in Europe The main reason for circumsision is hygiene. During the 3rd Reich it was not desired though, because it was thought to be a Jewish tradition, and I think this meomory is still often the reason circumsision isn't done to baby boys. In certain cultures it is a rite performed when the boys enter manhood ... a painful experience.

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teppar says on Jun 15, 2005, 14:49:

colombiche just one thing to clarify...while i agree with most of your post, i have to stick up for one point. i don't know where you got the info you did on dubai. my family has lived in dubai for more than 30 years. i, myself, a 28 year old single woman have been living, and working, in dubai on and off for 12 years. you don't need any husband or man to be your 'guardian' to work or live here. the only country in the region where something like that would apply is saudi where a single woman (unless she is a teacher or nurse) cannot live or work without a male 'guardian' (directly related male relative....ie father or husband)...

cheers

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teppar says on Jun 15, 2005, 14:59:

one other thing... what's wrong with a sikh being allowed to wear his turban instead of traditional police headgear. the turban has religious significance and in a tolerant society like canada there should be an understanding of differing religious practices. i can understand the police requiring a turban of a certain colour to comply with uniform standards, but to require that their relgious attire not be worn by a sikh cop is unfair. the world is too small to have such a narrow view on differing religious, social or cultural practices, including ways of dress. i agree that socially destructive practices of honour killings or female circumcision, for instance, should be banned in all parts of the world, but other practices and traditions, including dress should be embraced as part of the interesting fabric of life around the world. learn from the differences, don't hate them.

cheers

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Lionheart says on Jun 15, 2005, 15:00:

teppar, depends My cousin married an oil engineer from Bahrein. When they moved back there (he was a student in Seattle when they married) she was not allowed to work or leave the house unguarded. She may teach rich girls how to sing and dance and swim ...

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teppar says on Jun 15, 2005, 15:02:

lionheart..... i am guessing your cousin's husband is local bahraini (meaning he is originally from bahrain and not an expat living there?)...in that case her ability to work outside of the house or leave unguarded is a cultural practice of her husband's family, not a government mandate. i was going to move to bahrain, and have had many friends, including single females, who have lived and worked there. there are no governmental restrictions on a woman working or leaving her home 'unguarded'. as long as she has an employment visa she is allowed to work.

cheers

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Lionheart says on Jun 15, 2005, 15:30:

you are correct teppar She married a nephew of the sheik ... one of thousand of them I think. I just assumed it was general ruling there from how she described it to me. Their first child is a boy, so she fulfilled her main duty and lives quite a luxerious life now, returning to Seattle during the hot Arabian summers.

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adrimm says on Jun 15, 2005, 15:46:

Dubai Certainly one of the places I would like to visit, I've heard and seen some great things about it. I'm 26 single fem, one my friends passes through and stays a few days quite often on her travels for work. She has had no problems there and from what I know the visited parts are a showcase place for wealth and architecture with fairly moderate and tolerant culture (relative to other parts of the middle east.

As for work, well I wouldn't move anywhere for work without at least first visiting (unless I already knew the place)

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teppar says on Jun 15, 2005, 15:53:

well adrimm.... well adrimm if you ever want to check out dubai, let me know and i'll be happy to show you around! its a very modern place and very tolerant (you'll see women wearing less here than in the west because it is so hot! ok its probably not culturally sensitive of them to be running around in little to nothing, but....they do it and the gov't doesn't stop them)...the middle east is not some homogenous area that the western media likes to portray as a bad place full of bad people. like colombia, the middle east is very misunderstood by the rest of the world. there is good and bad here, and you'll find exactly whichever of those you are looking for.

cheers

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platano says on Jun 15, 2005, 16:10:

Answers for UTC and Colombiche: UTC: I did not say the USA was the only country practicing circumcision. I gave factually accurate information that "the USA is the only country in the world that circumcises the majority of its newborn boys without medical or religious reason." I am sorry if my post did not amuse you. I am stating a fact and here is evidence to support it.

The U.S. circumcision rate declined 11.4% over two years, according to figures just released by the National Center for Health Statistics, from 63.1% in 2001 to 55.9% in 2003, following a steady, twenty-five year decline. At this rate, in just 12 years, the US will join other English-speaking countries in abandoning circumcision. Medicalized, mass circumcision of infants is a uniquely English-speaking phenomenon. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom formerly circumcised the majority of infant boys, but have either abandoned the practice, or reduced the rate to about 1 in 10. The United States medical community stands alone is profiting from a non-therapeutic, unnecessary procedure performed on non-consenting minors.

COLOMBICHE: I did not justify female circumcision. I simply stated that male genital mutilation does not get as much press. You counter that male circumcision is done in hospitals in sanitary conditions. Can I conclude that you would therefore support female circumcision if it was done in hospitals in sanitary conditions? I hope not.

The cutting of male genitalia is mutilation by definition (wherever and under whatever conditions it occurs) and the fact is there is lifeong loss of sexual pleasure as a result. It is not acceptable to me for either males or females to be treated in such a manner. It is doubly shameful when it happens to non-consenting minors.

Colombiche, please read my reply to Juanalejo in the next post, and do not treat this matter lightly.

Plátano, el banano verde mutilado por crisitanos
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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platano says on Jun 15, 2005, 16:30:

Juanalejo, I disagree with you when say of circumcision: "It is not big issue, it is simply done"

It is a big deal. It is a human rights issue, and it has lifelong consequences.

"Dr. Paul M. Fleiss is a leading expert in the function of the foreskin. He has conclusively demonstrated that male circumcision denudes, desensitizes, and disables the penis.

The foreskin possesses a rich concentration of blood vessels and nerve endings. Yet circumcision severs 80 percent or more of it. Thus, circumcision cuts off more than 3 feet of veins, arteries, and capillaries, 240 feet of nerves, and more than 20,000 nerve endings. The foreskin's muscles, glands, and mucous membrane are mutilated.

This is not to mention that circumcision makes the penis as much as 25 percent or more shorter. The skin that is left in an unnatural state tugs the penis into the abdomen.

Circumcision radically desensitizes the penis. The rich nerve network and all the nerve receptors in the foreskin are severed. The loss of the protective foreskin obviously desensitizes the glans. Since the membrane covering the glans is now exposed and subjected to constant abrasion, it becomes desensitized, dry and tough. The nerve endings in the glans, which in the intact penis are just beneath the surface of the mucous membrane, are now out of sexual function.

The foreskin is meant to naturally glide back and forth over the penis. This motion is the process by which the penis and the orgasmic triggers in the foreskin, frenulum, and glans are stimulated. In intercourse, the foreskin facilitates smooth movement between the mucosal surfaces of a man and a woman. It enables the penis to slide in and out of the vagina without irritating friction, since it possesses its own natural self-lubricating mechanism.

The female, meanwhile, is stimulated by moving pressure rather than by friction only – as with circumcised males." --The Mutilation of Male Sexual Pleasure by Jamie Glazov

Plátano, el banano verde mutilado por cristianos
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 15, 2005, 16:49:

Circumcision rates which were formerly 80% in English Canada have fallen to 25%. This was largely a result of the Canadian national health insurance ceasing to pay for it. Some evidence suggests that the real numbers may be higher and that many parents pay for it themselves later. Surveys of Canadian male school children show circumcision rates which are much higher than 25% depending on the area. In the US they have fallen to 55% from 90%.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 15, 2005, 16:52:

Damm, Platano, I'm operating with only 9 of my orginal 12 inches? And even that is so messed up it's a wonder that I can do anything with it at all. No wonder gringoes have to resort to oral sex to satisfy their women.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on Jun 15, 2005, 16:54:

Speak for yourself, UTC, A green banana has other ways to satisfy a woman.

Plátano, el banano verde
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 15, 2005, 16:55:

It's George Bush who's responsible for continuing circumcision in the US. OTOH, Platano, look at the bright side. Without continuing US cicumcision, we'd be even bigger dicks than we are.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on Jun 15, 2005, 19:41:

UTC, I know you consider PBH entertainment, but would you make jokes about female gential mutilation, too?

This is what I was trying to say to Colombiche and Juanalejo... there is a denial that male genital mutilation is even a serious problem. "It is not a big issue" in Juanalejo's words. So are the jokes a form of denial or what? It is a human tragedy and people slough it off. It's under the radar of what people should be concerned about.

Plátano, el banano verde
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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Colombiche says on Jun 15, 2005, 20:04:

My replies... Teppar, I happened to get the info from a couple of co-workers who actually lived and worked in Dubai. Two of them are Indian and one of them is Palestinian. They said that a single foreign woman is considered to bring perversion to their society. Maybe this is not true, but why would these guys lie to me? could it be that they thought I am particularly perverted??? LOL!!!

That surprised me a lot, because from what I know Dubai is a very progressive modern metropolis, I always pictured it to be like the New York of the middle East.

About the turban thing... I still do not agree with it Teppar. Canada is Canada and it system was built after the British system and in Quebec after the French. I have nothing against Turbans, but I think that the police is a Canadian institution and people that want to be part of it have to respect that. If a Canadian woman moved to Saudi Arabia, she would have to abide by their rules. Sure Canada is progressive, but where does it stop? If we have an Afghan cop, can she wear a Brqa? If we have a Hare Krishna can he wear a tunic instead of the police uniform? A jew can wear their hat and their long beard? If a raelian becomes a cop can he dress up like an alien from outerspace? To take it even further, why can't a mexican wear a big sombrero? I think out on the street you should have the freedom to wear what you want, but Canada doesn't have to reshape it instutions to accommodate everybody's requests.

Platano, I said above that female infibulation is far more serious than male circumcision. Severing a clitoris is not equivalent to cutting off some foreskin. Severing a clitoris and cutting off the labia and sewing the opening shut is equivalent to totally cutting off a man's penis and leaving him with a bloody stump for life. I don't know why I am even arguing this point anymore! I don't necessarily agree with male circumsicion, but I think is ludicrous to deem the two practices as equally cruel.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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platano says on Jun 15, 2005, 20:14:

Colombiche, I did not say "equally cruel" and I did not say one was more serious than another. I am simply saying when a knife is taken to the genitals of a male or a female both are genital mutilation. Stedman's Medical Dictionary defines "mutilation" as "disfigurement or injury by removal or destruction of any conspicuous or essential part of the body."

Colombiche, I am glad you have never suffered it. I have. And I take issue with people who have not had their gentalia cut downplaying it as just "cutting off some foreskin". Geez, how insensitive can you get? (read my post above on foreskin)

How would you react if you were victim of a partial clitorectomy, without your consent and then someone says it was just "cutting off some of your clitoris"? I imagine you would be furious at the casual indifference! I would be too. And I am, about your casual remark that it's just "cutting off some foreskin" and your using the word "ludicrous." Having your genitalia mutilated without your consent is NOT ludicrous, regardless of the degree of severity of the cutting.

Plátano, el banano verde enojado por la insensatez que rodea este asunto
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 15, 2005, 21:51:

Geez, Platano, you're getting mighty worked up about this circumcision thing? I thought you were a Colombiano and they've all got intact peckers. Hell, I lost a good three inches off a foot long hoagie but I'm not crying about it. You just gotta use the wood you've got left and swing for the fence.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on Jun 15, 2005, 22:03:

I guess I expected a little more sensitivity from Colombiche... and when people ignore or minimize something that hasn't happened to them... the total lack of empathy is infuriating.

You are right about not crying about it.... but aren't you even curious about the sexual pleasure you could have experienced if all those nerve endings had not been the victim of a genital mutilation? Don't we, as men, have the right to at least mourn that, since it was done without our consent. Can't women understand that without trying to minimize it?

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 16, 2005, 06:27:

So you expected a little more sensitivity about your loss of sensitivity down south? You're right, Platano, I'm going to have a little ceremony mourning the loss of 3 inches of my manhood complete with little foreskin casket. Maybe you can see one of those surgeons who sepcializes in foreskin restoration and you can get a new hat put on Mr. Happy. The thing I don't understand is how you managed to lose it to begin with. You are Colombian aren't you??? I smell a rat or maybe a trouser mouse.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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elmodefoque says on Jun 16, 2005, 07:13:

UC, that is some funny s--t. So you lost a good 3 inches off your foot long hoagie, jejejej. Listen, in the world of donkey love every inch counts. Do you have any idea how discouraging is when you're making love to your favorite burra, sweating like a pig, doing your best to make her moan, flinch, even move her tail but instead you get nothing like you’re not even there and to make things worst your friends are right behind you with pants already down and fully aroused waiting their turn, telling you to screw her already and get out! Nojoda marica, meteselo y sal de ahi, hijueputa! hell, I was already screwing the damn burra, but I was only 7 years old and not yet fully developed but at least the burra could have look back to see who was behind her, instead I got nothing! she kept her head down chewing on grass and occasionally jerking her head to chase flies away. Man, I could not wait to turn 18 or 19 already. When palenqueros (black kids) maybe 15, 16 years old walked in el monte (undeveloped lot) all burras became nervous and started kicking and screaming like they wanted to get untied and to run the f—k outta there. We ran too, but only because if they caught us we were getting a serious ass whooping. I think it all had to do with territorial boundaries. We Indians and mulatos lived in el barrio abajo and they lived in the barrio next to us but we shared the same monte where we all went to kill birds’ lobitos and have sex with burras.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

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platano says on Jun 16, 2005, 07:13:

UTC and Tinto, UTC, I am not Colombian. If I were Colombian, I'd still have full ability to experience sexual pleasure intact.

Tinto, if male circumsion were practiced in Colombia, there probably would be a ceremony and there would be drums and dancing.

But this is still not a joke to me. People should not make jokes about female circumcision either.

Sorry, I just don't see genital mutilation as a laughing matter.

plátano

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lpdiver says on Jun 16, 2005, 07:25:

Adrimm Or maybe her father stabbed her so he wouldn't have to pay out a dowry? Hmmmm?

T

"cook some rice!"

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 16, 2005, 08:20:

So, Platano, when you look up at the bathroom stall and you read on the wall, "What are you looking up here for? The joke's in your hand!", you definitely don't think that's funny. Why did I get the impression that you were Colombian?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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adrimm says on Jun 16, 2005, 13:37:

lp not funny man.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 16, 2005, 20:20:

I woulda thought Dominican, with a handle like 'Platano' :)))))

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Lionheart says on Jun 17, 2005, 02:09:

Platano, I don't get it I have a feeling you are confusing castration with circumcision. While there might be a small difference in size in the relaxed state of the penis, there is no different in the errect state. Perhaps the author of that book performed circumcision with a machete. All in all it is a myth that there is a difference in usability, size and performance.

I recall reading somewhere that circumcision was mandated in the islam for hygenic reasons due to the heat and water shortage in the deserts, to prevent diseases and infections. This is also where the Jewish picked up the habit. The same reasons were cited to me by doctors after the birth of my boys in Germany, better hygiene and statistical proven reduced risk of infections. If I am in the mood I will dig up some medical documentation later today after I get some sleep.

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