I'm seriously considering buying an apartment in Los Cristales, Cali.

Albatross says on Aug 5, 2005, 07:31:

? Why not just x-fer the money to your account (I assume by now you have a Colombian bank account) ?

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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calipro says on Aug 5, 2005, 07:38:

calipro I have already wired quite a lot of money to my bank account in Colombia already. At some point they are going to require that I show documentation on where the money is coming from and I'm still in the states. I thougth I might just bring $9500 and pull the rest out of ATM's to avoid any hold up on the money.

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tomtom33 says on Aug 5, 2005, 07:44:

In 2003 I wired US$45,000 to Colombia to buy my apartment in CTG. Never had to explain anything to anyone.

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calipro says on Aug 5, 2005, 16:24:

tomtom I haven't been asked to explain anything to this point either but the bank did tell me that I would at some point.

Are you familiar with a form 4 or form 11 that needs to be filled out in order to avoid a so called reparation tax on monies from the sell of your property in Colombia?

I have talked to a number of people who have bought property in Colombia and nobody that I have spoken to yet has filled out these forms.

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Avispa says on Aug 5, 2005, 16:58:

Apartment What's that come to? About 70K US?

Don't tell anyone your travel information when you fly down with the suitcase. I've heard some bad stories.

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calipro says on Aug 5, 2005, 17:21:

What suit case? I leave my clothes in Cali at a friends house.

130 million pesos comes to about $57,000 US. And $9500 in travelers checks will fit in my back pocket.

If anybody is really dead set on taking them from me. Well they can have them.

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tomtom33 says on Aug 5, 2005, 17:39:

Formulario No. 11 must be filed with Banco de la Republica. This form declares the value of your apartment purchase. It must be filed within a certain number of days following your closing. You must file this form regardless of any intention to move money out of the country subsequent to any future sale.

The form can be very handy if you want to take the money out of the country when you sell. Also, it is used to evidence investment in Colombia for purposes of getting an investor VISA.

My law firm in Bogota advised me of this and other requirements during my purchase.

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lpdiver says on Aug 5, 2005, 18:21:

Do you have to declare... Less than $10,000? When I went for my wedding I did the following.I loaded a prepaid visa (from AAA) with $5,000.00. It was good at most ATM's and replacable if lost. It worked very well. I carried (to my wifes horror) a thousand dollars cash. I also carried $5,000.00 in traveler's cheques.

I was only able to liquidate the travelers cheques at SOME bank branches and needed someone with a cedula. They called and confirmed each check and scrutinized them carefully AND reported the transaction to DAS I presume. I had no problems other that it was about an hour ordeal to cash the funds. In other words you aren't going to pay for your meals or gift ourchases with a travelers cheque.

tony

"cook some rice!"

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2retirensa says on Aug 5, 2005, 20:20:

Tony What kind of exchange rate did they give you on the travelers checks?
My understanding (from PBH) the rate is as poor as changing dollars.
Right or wrong?
Maureen

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lpdiver says on Aug 5, 2005, 20:55:

2retinsa I really don't know. When I am down there I try not to get to obsessed with getting "the best deal" as it interferes with my pleasure. I am sure it was somewhat fair though or my wife would have been sure to make a comment.

Tony

"cook some rice!"

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Mr X says on Aug 6, 2005, 03:04:

calipro If they are asking 145 million they will probably accept a lot less than 130 mil. We found an apt where the asking price was 300mil but bought it for 225 mil. Don't be afraid of making a low offer, you could be pleasantly surprised. It's a buyers market there and cash customers don't appear every day.
No problem with t/c's, you should get a slightly better rate than cash. I wouldn't declare it on entry. Changing at the bank with your passport is declaration enough.

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jacobtafler says on Aug 6, 2005, 04:11:

tony hello it is jacob i just come back from colombia the tc rate is very good 2287 and the cash rate is2180 pesos the cradit cars rate is 2308 but your bank take pea it is good to chenge travel check in colombia but only in banco de colombia in others places they will take you comision if they ask 145 miloins in the bigining never opper 130000 miolons offer 110000 and tale tham that you see 3 othetrs apt belive me they will acpeted your opper or sale you for 120000 milions in latin america it work like that beacuse if they have the buyer they will never axpeted 130000 if they ask 145000 and dont show tham that you are intersting in this apt even you are there are more saler than buyer in colombia

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aztec says on Aug 6, 2005, 04:56:

File correct Forms Please follow tomtom33's advice re. Form 11. You or your bank will file Form 4 with Banco de la República upon conversion of dollar's to peso's. You will file Form 11 with the contract/title for the property. You have 3 months to complete this paperwork.

It is your responsibility to make sure the correct forms are used. Most Colombian bank employee's never have to be involved with this process so they may not follow through on it. Even when they do, it is easier for them to file Form 5. Insist that they use Form 4 instead!

This may seem silly but it the Governments attempt at controlling illegal money flows. Incidentally, don't blame the Colombians for the extra paperwork. It is because of pressure from the U. S. Banking System.

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viewpoint says on Aug 6, 2005, 05:41:

Calipro - Mine Field You better listen to Aztec and TomTom33 as I think you are heading towards big problems. You are walking in a "MINE FIELD" and the next step may cost you a leg to two (or your economic life).

The Form 4 and Form 11 must be filed within 90 days from the date of each transfer of funds. Failure to do so subjects you to a fine of as much as 200% of the transferred amount and an 40% tax when (and if) you want to repartriate the funds.

In 2003 I transfered an amount execeeding US$125,000 to complete a real estate purchase. The bank that handled the transfer assisted in filing Form 4 but I failed to file Form 11 within the 90 days. This year (2 years later) I received a notice questioning this transfer further stating no Form 11 was filed or on record. We immediately responded by disclosing and evidencing the transaction and use of funds including filing a Form 11 with the central bank. The process of addressing this problem has been very complicated, timely and costly. Recently, I executed what appears to be a "statement of facts" for the investigating agency and I am now awaiting the disposition of the case and assessment of the fine. This will come within the next two months.

Only because I had a competent assistant (and a well known Bogota attorney) to receive and act on this notice immediately and made a showing of good faith all during the process will I probably avoid a large fine but I will have to pay some fine. If I had been a totally unrepresented non-resident foreign person unable to respond immediately the process could have led me down the path of a big penality.

Subsenquent to this event I have had other real estate purchases and several other large wire transfers. I filed all the correct forms (4 & 11) including required atachments and still receive questions and investigation from the regulators about this activity. If I sold my real estate investments tomorrow I could repatriate my investment funds back outside Colombia in any other currency without worry of taxation by the Colombian government because the funds were declared and registered as a foreign investment in real estate upon entry into Colombia.

Recently (June 24) the central bank has issued a more relaxed requirement titled "Circular Reglamentaria Externa-DCIN-83" which makes compliance with the disclosure forms attached to Form 11 easier. On real estate transactions they will now accept copies of the real estate purchase agreements in lieu of the final closing documents until it's available to be filed. They have been doing that but without this relaxed policy. You will find the requirements on page 2 paragraph B titled Inmuebles.

I keep reading these posts taking about making large transfers of money to pay for real estate (like yours) and not having any problems with the transfers when no forms are filed. The obligation to file the forms is solely yours and if you fail to file then it will cost you thousands of dollars more in your real estate purchase transaction with the risk of a 200% penality. If you want to pay 200% more than your purchase price for your apartment then just keep following your own advice and you will. The notices will come to your declared Colombian address and if you are not there to receive them and respond (I think within 5 business days) you will be defaulted out of the process and ultimately could face the 200% penality recorded as a lien on your Colombian assets (home).

It took me trial and error(s) to learn the hard way so maybe you will make the same mistakes that I did. Aztec sought out a good attorney and ask the right intelligent questions before acting, avoided the problems and now has a good understanding of the Colombian laws and regulations pertaining to real estate investments by a foreign person.

My final advice to you is find an attorney quick in Colombia that can clean up your mess and keep you out of trouble in the future. Bringing money orders to Colombia to save the time of a wire transfer is crazy as it will only delay the process and make it more costly but I guess that is how we all learn (trial & error).

The other problem that you face by your failure to file FORM 4 or FORM 11 documents is that you can't repartriate your investment (funds) if and when you sell your apartment without paying about a 40% tax. In other words if you sell your partment (home) and are paid Colombian pesos you can't take these funds to the central bank, convert them into US dollars and wire transfer them to the US without first paying 40% of the sum in taxes. All because you didn't declare the incoming wire transfers as a foreign investment in real estate which if timely and properly filed would have allowed you to bring the funds back out of Colombia in US dollars or any other desired currency without taxation.

About 2-3 years from now you will come to a better understanding and respect for the Colombian laws and regulations that govern foreign real estate investments. Colombia is a separate soverign country with it's own sometimes crazy laws and regulations but they must be followed to the "T" or you will soon be separared from your money.

SEEK A COLOMBIAN ATTORNEY before you destroy yourself. Calipro, there is no question that you are great photographer but you better get some good advice on the subject of your post or the Colombian government will end up owning your new apartment, camera and clothes.

Doing business in Colombia (as a foreign person) of any kind without good legal advice is like walking on eggshells as it's only a question of time and you will break something if it doesn't break you first.

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calipro says on Aug 6, 2005, 07:42:

viewpoint, Aztec and TomTom33 Thanks for your advice.

But, I'm already in the middle of the mine field and I don't know which way is OUT!

On July 28 and July 22 I wired 13,560,000.00 and 10,237,500.00 to my colombian bank account from my american bank account. I certainly have time to file a form 4 if my bank has not already done this.

On these dates I made depositos en efectivo for the following amounts 7/13-$3,600,000.00, 7/12-$9,000,000.00, 7/11- $5,150,000.00 7/09-$6,000,000.00, 7/08-$9,200,000.00, 7/07-$17,200,000.00, 7/6-$7,200,00.00, 7/05-$2,000,000.00, 7/02-$3,500,000.00, 7/01-$3,600,000.00

The problem with these deposites is that I pulled the money out of ATM's and as you already know ATM's don't spit out a form 4.

I do have most of my ATM receipts but how can I turn them into a form 4?

Also I I did change $700 at a casa de cambios and they gave me a form 5 instead of a form 4.

I can send the rest of the money down in a wire transfer. But if I go down with travelers checks at least I can ask for a form 4 instead of getting nothing at all.

Help me out here! I don't want those colombianos taking my hard earned cash!

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viewpoint says on Aug 6, 2005, 08:12:

Calipro You are not in that much trouble yet !!! I would not worry about the ATM withdrawls as unless they total more than (about) US$4000 per month it should be no problem or cause no reporting requirement. I have used ATMs as a source of $$$ to pay my monthly bills in Colombia for six years and never been questioned. It's my understanding you can wire transfer between US$3000 to US$4000 per month without triggering any reporting requirements.

What I would do is file the forms 4 & 11 for each of the two wire transfers in July and any subsequent wire transfers (and the TCs) then if you are using any funds in Colombia previously brought though ATMs or other means to make the purchase then transfer the difference between the real estate purchase amount and the funds already reported on forms 4 & 11 declaring them also even through you don't need them. In other words make sure all funds used for the purchase of real estate are declared on forms 4 & 11 so that you can repartiate them later without taxation.

Basically the problem of taxation of undeclared funds arises because in the eyes of the Colombian government since there is no declared source for these funds then they must be from unreported income and accordingly they tax them that way (as income). This event never happens unless or until you want to convert the pesos back into your foreign currency and wire transfer them outside of Colombia. As long as you leave the funds as pesos in Colombia you have no problem with the taxation issue except your funds are trapped in Pesos.

In reality buying real estate in Colombia (with foreign currrency) is as much an investment in the local currency as it is in the real estate itself. In other words you become not just married to the value of the real estate but also the flucuation of the Colombian peso. You will always value your Colombian real estate investment in US$ because it was the source of your funds however (as an example) if the Colombian peso spikes up to 2550 in the coming months you will lose 10% of the value (in US$ terms) on your investment. I think that this is a likely senario during the last quarter of 2005 and first quarter of 2006, however if the peso strengthened against the US$ from the current exchange rates you would make money in US$ terms even though during this entire period or either senario the value of the proeprty never changed in peso terms. If the peso remains unchanged from it's current level then you would incurr no foreign currency gain or loss, however the one thing we do know from the past is that the peso will not remain stable.

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calipro says on Aug 6, 2005, 09:04:

viewpoint Thanks for the heads up. But my ATM withdrawals for the month of July are closer to $30,000 US than $4,000.

I'll see what I can do about that and I will certainly file the form 4's for the wire transfers when I get back down to Cali in a couple of weeks.

I sure wish you guys were wrong about the form 4 and 11 because I know a couple of guys that bought property in Colombia and don't know a thing about them. I hope the government gives them a break or maybe the rules are different if you are married to a colombian national and they are also on the title.

There is one guy I met in Cali named Robert (LAST NAME DELETED) name from Alabama who isn't doing anything right. He doesn't have a business visa, cedula or even a bank account. He puts money into some colombianos bank account here in the states and then they pull it out over there and buy property. I was half worried that the colombianos would just rip him off and now I find out he has to worry about the colombian government also.

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viewpoint says on Aug 6, 2005, 09:23:

Calipro I am sure that the ATM withdrawls in that amount triggered a reporting requirement but what's important is that all this activity happened within the last 30 days and you have 90 days from each activity to file. You may want to explore how you take title to the property next as your residency in Colombia can trigger patrimony taxation. Now you can understand why immigration and real estate investing in Panama is much more inviting than Colombia.

Just take a copy of your bank statements showing the dates and amounts of the ATM withdrawls so that you can attach copies to your FORM 4 or 11 filings.

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aztec says on Aug 6, 2005, 09:23:

!!!!! WOW, thanks for the heads up viewpoint. This change has only been made in the past few weeks. It sure places the ball back in our court. Our problems will be ameleomerated by the accommodation.

Our accountant had personally visited Banco de la Republica and was told they had only recently become aware of the hardship and planned to make changes for foreign investors. In fact there may be other changes directed at easing investment activities for foreigners.

Don't forget, Calipro you will still need to use the two forms (4&11).
Sites of interest:

This is the site for the Circular Reglamentaria Externa-DCIN-83 referenced by viewpoint. I would print and save because not many people in Colombia are yet aware of the change.

http://www.banrep.gov.co/cambios/Circular832005/credcin83_2005.pdf

On this site you will find Forms 4 & 11. Print them or otherwise save.

https://quimbaya.banrep.gov.co:8443/secinternet/index.jsp?opcion=formularios

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aztec says on Aug 6, 2005, 16:00:

pastygringo The key word in your post is "knowledgeable". You would be surprised at the number of Colombian professionals we have had to "educate". To top it off it cost us and some of our friends a lot of money for this "free" education.

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viewpoint says on Aug 6, 2005, 23:53:

PatsyGringo Yes I guess you are correct as what would Aztec and I know about this subject after years and thousands of dollars spent learning about this subject. Patsy maybe you could suggest the name of some knowledgable Colombian professionals for us to discuss this matter with.

Can we rely on your advice as an internet poster ?

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calipro says on Aug 7, 2005, 00:46:

RatBag If we could stomach living with old rich women, we would have never left the states.

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jacobtafler says on Aug 7, 2005, 07:10:

i dont belive that some american man can be like that sorry my name is jacob and i can not belive what i read i live in rio de janeiro for 20 years it is the some low like colombia even more complicatade i know franch man and italian man end english man and israeli man that if he buy a aprtment he just call to the consulate of his coutry even it is american counsolte and belive me every counsole will give you 3 good loyers it can cost you lase than 500 bucks or 1000 bucks this american man opper 130 miloins next time opper 129 milons or 128 miloins and with the 1 miloin or 2 miloins take good loyer every body will like to help you but how will give you the right informtion is only the loyer if not you will lose alot more belive me dont write in the internet about taking iligal money from card or check it is onlymy sagestion i buy my self 3 aptment and sold tham in rio i never write in the internet about it mayby you wont only tobe importent and not buy any think if yes stop to ask questions sorry about my englis but it is my experiance in sauth american countries good luck

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calipro says on Aug 11, 2005, 20:28:

Wires I wired $9500 to my colombian bank account on monday.

My colombian associate went to my bank today to sign for and accept the transfer.

The money is there but they won't post it to my account until my associate meets with the bank manager tommorrow.

I wonder wha they are going to ask him?

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Atrevido says on Aug 13, 2005, 06:11:

Viewpoint I bought property in Colombia a little over two years ago taking the money out of ATMs as I had no one up north to help me with a wire transfer. I knew nothing of forms four or eleven so maybe I have a nasty surprise coming my way. I'm not concerned about liquidating the investment though and taking the proceeds out of the country as I plan to stay here. I am keeping an eye on that eighty million peso limit on bienes before a special tax kicks in. So the Colombian govt. really keeps track of how much you take out of ATMs? I guess that would be one way of getting drug proceeds into to Country. Bummer.

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viewpoint says on Aug 13, 2005, 06:21:

I don´t think the Colombia government tracks the amount you withdrawl from ATMs but at this point your greatest problem would occur (in my opinion) if you sold your property and tried to wire transfer the funds from Colombia to another country converting them from pesos to say USA dollars. You could be hit with a 40% income tax on what the central government could view as unreported income.

You can still get around that but it will cost you (5-10%). If you can find a buyer who will pay you in US dollars in the US then you are back to square one or if you are paid in Colombian pesos you simply convert them to US dollars in the black market and figure out how to get them back to the USA.

Colombian travel agencies do a brisk business in currency exchange as well as other medimum to larger companies that are faced with purchasing US dollars with their Colombian pesos to pay to purchases requiring US dollars (like airplane tickets, etc.)

The eighty million peso problem hits you if you are a resident of Colombia living there more than 180 days or if you can´t demonstrate that your equity in Colombian assets is less than 80 million so if you can show a loan inside or outside of Colombia that reduces your equity to less than 80 million (assuming that you live in Colombia more than 180 days) then you only are required to register the property and evidence of the loan and you are OK. If your total assets exceed 80 million (at year end) and you are residing in Colombia more than 180 days (not a tourist) then you are required by law to register these assets and would be subject to any applicable patrimony taxation .

I don´t live in Colombia more than 180 days a year and accordingly I am not subject to patrimony taxation. Hunter can share the information as to the reporting procedure.

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aztec says on Aug 13, 2005, 06:32:

jacobtafler Will someone please translate what "jacobtafler" is talking about. Either Spanish or English will help.

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quindioman says on Aug 13, 2005, 06:38:

i had to double check i thought he was talking about his lover and his loins....perhaps that's why he doesn't write on the internet...?

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Hunter says on Aug 13, 2005, 07:50:

Atrevido If your assets are worth over 80 Million, you give a list of them to an accountant and he registers them at DIAN, the normal Accountancy charge is 1.5 times minimum Colombian monthly wage.

So you give him a list of any assets that you have in your name for a calendar year, every year, you need to give him the list by April of the following year. The list should be:

Purchase Price
Date of Purchase
Sales price if any sales.
Income off each assets, if any.

Hunter

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Atrevido says on Aug 14, 2005, 18:06:

My thanks to Viewpoint and Hunter for your input. I'll keep my fingers crossed that my purchases haven't triggered any "audits".

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calipro says on Aug 14, 2005, 18:11:

What about ATM's? "You can still get around that but it will cost you (5-10%). If you can find a buyer who will pay you in US dollars in the US then you are back to square one or if you are paid in Colombian pesos you simply convert them to US dollars in the black market and figure out how to get them back to the USA."

What about just putting the money in your colombian bank account and then withdrawing it from an ATM with your ATM card?

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Hunter says on Aug 15, 2005, 04:49:

calipro I presume you mean withdrawing the money in your home Country if you sold your Colombian property.

That would probably work.

Hunter

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calipro says on Sep 12, 2005, 23:26:

Unbelievable!! I just purchased an apartment in Cali. The transaction was straight forward and simple.

I wish I could say the same thing about filling forms 4 and 11. I could not find one attorney that knew about the forms and filing requirements. I even had a Conavi branch manager tell me that it wasn’t necessary to file them.

I finally just down loaded the forms, filled them out myself and went to Banco de la Republica and filed them myself. But even they seemed to view the forms as just a formality and seemed pretty surprised when I told them that I knew someone that got fined for not filling them out.

The Conavi branch manger told me that they had several American and European customers that bought property in Cali and to his knowledge none of them filled forms 4 and 11. I showed her the forms and asked her then what are they for? She told me that the only time that they would fill out these forms is if an inspector asked for them.

I was amazed at the incredible amount of ignorance by bank employees and even attorneys about filing requirements for these forms. It appears that most foreigners are not filing these forms when purchasing property in Cali and I can’t imagine how or why the Colombian government would be using Aztec as a poster child for the enforcement of these laws. There are just so many people they could nail if they wanted to.

To tell you the truth, I feel like I might be subjecting my real estate transaction to more scrutiny then necessary by filing the forms.

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pink_lotus says on Sep 13, 2005, 00:37:

Narco History in that Building Los Cristales? That building has some very intersting narco traffick history to it :) LOL! That's where the Santa Cruz's had all their phone tapping equipment!

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pink_lotus says on Sep 13, 2005, 00:38:

Hmm if the building is only six years old - then it's not the smae one.
The one I am refering to is the one on the circumvular.

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calipro says on Sep 13, 2005, 01:33:

Sorry for the confusion...pinky Los Cristales is a barrio in Cali. The building that I was considering was only six years old. The barrio of Los Cristales is much, much older. hehehe!!

However I ended up buying an apartment in a building that is brand new in Granada. Granada as in the barrio of Granada which happens to be even older than the barrio of Los Cristales.

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aztec says on Sep 13, 2005, 04:14:

calipro... You may be correct that one might be able to fly below the radar when purchasing property. You are also right on in your observation about the lack of knowledge by bankers, lawyers and real estate agents. You have to work further up in these organizations before you find people who have an understanding. That is what so frustrated us. They acted as if we were stupid.

The large majority of those people never interact with a foreigner much less handle financial transactions for them. The fact remains that investments for a foreigner is handled differently and viewed differently by the government.

That the government is actively involved in this situation is their awareness of the difficulty the regulation is causing. See the change recently made by the Bank in June. Also they have begun following up on funds moving into and out of the country. It may take them several years before they get to you. (See viewpoint)

It is my observation that it is to the advantage of the Colombian Government if you don't follow the regulation for foreign investment. Then if you have a need to repatriate the funds they will tax (expropriate?) almost half of the money.

In my case I created the problem by my own arrogance. I incorrectly assumed since I was reasonably intelligent and handled many transitions similar in the States that I would need no significant help. Different Country with different regulations! Many of these regulations are a result of U.S. pressure. Our property purchase was not straight forward and had some special difficulties which was when we became aware of the potential larger problem with the National Government.

In the end, thanks to recommendation of a U.S. friend, I contacted the law firm of POSSE, HERRERA & RUIZ.( http://www.phrlegal.com/ ).As you can see they are highly qualified and much too expensive for my wife and me. There are partners in this firm who actually participated in advising the Government on the difficulties created for foreign investors.

I only wish that we had someone warn us of these regulations before we got in over our head. It would have been much less expensive(no high price law firm).

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viewpoint says on Sep 13, 2005, 05:08:

Calipro Trust me you did the right thing by registering your foreign investment as now if you ever sell your apartment and want to repatriate those funds back to the USA in dollars you can without penalty or income tax deduction.

I don't want to go into specifics but my first Colombian real estate investment in 1999 when I purchased a large apartment was not registered as a foreign investment (forms 4 & 11) and I paid for the apartment in USA dollars within the USA. So far I have never been questioned about that transaction but the problem facing me in the future if I ever want to sell the apartment is that I can't convert the pesos back to US dollars through the central bank and wire transfer the funds to the USA without facing a 40 or 42% tax on undeclared income.

There are ways around even that problem but they come with a price. You did the right thing and you are better off for it. Last week when my secretary was filing a Form 11 registering a wire transfer payment for another transaction she was told that I didn't need to file a form 11 for each incoming wire transfer but only the initial incoming wire with an attached copy of the compra venta showing the total purchase price. I don't believe that the information they gave her was correct so we are taking the issue to the superintenent of banking in Bogota for their determination.

Attached to your Form 11 should have been a copy of your transaction documents (the compra venta or closing papers) evidencing your transaction. What you encountered in seeking advice is exactly what I encountered not only seeking information about properly registering foreign investments of real estate but also Colombian tax advice. I have learned more from Aztec's quest for knowledge and creditable advice than any other source.

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tressel says on Oct 9, 2005, 00:52:

wiewpoint, aztec, anyone - please help! I can't believe what I am reading. How can I get out of my jamb here? Well I have 2 major problems! 1)I just closed 30 days ago on a condo in Barrinquilla with a 5,000,000 pesos deposit and $57,000US transferred to the sellers US bank account. No one told me of any forms. Can I, or How can I file them to stay out of trouble? 2)Even bigger problem, I have a 10,000,000 peso deposit on a beautiful 250,000,000 peso penthouse in Santa Marta. I must close soon. I previously got my business visa, cedula, registered with dian, opened a davivienda bank account and talked to the bank manager about my purchase and she told me no problem to transfer funds, but when I did the transfer the other day they rejected it saying that I need to have an account there for 6 months! I was going to try to solve the problem by having many western unions and moneygrams sent to me, my fiancee and other close friends and using ATMs or I may have a slight chance that a friend from the USA in Santa Marta may let me transfer to his account. If I do any of the above for this purchase can I file the forms 4 and 11 so I don't get in trouble? What can I do about these 2 problems? Any advice is greatly appreciated. tressel

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tressel says on Oct 9, 2005, 00:57:

3rd question I ended up on this page through a google search. I like the site so I joined but how do I get back to this page from thepoorbuthappy home page? I can't seem to located this page/forum from the home page!

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calipro says on Oct 9, 2005, 01:27:

tressel I opened a bank account with conavi and wired a large sum of money to my bank accout in a matter of weeks, I suggest you check with and open an account with a bank that will let you wire funds right away. Conavi's policies could be changing soon because BanColombia bougth them out.

I don't know how you are going to handle the transfer of funds from one U.S. bank account to another when filing forms 4 and 11. But I suggest that you find a way to wire the rest of the funds to a bank account in your name in Colombia. It will make it much easier to file form 4 if you do. Even if you don't have to file form 4 for the U.S. transfer from one U.S. bank account to another, You should still probably file form 11.

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aztec says on Oct 9, 2005, 05:27:

Additional... ...information written in English. http://www.coinvertir.org/html/i_portals/index.php

Go to Investment Registry and click on detailed information at the bottom of page.

See: Foreign Investment Registration Procedures. Note reference to Form 4.

See: Real Estate. Note reference to Form 11 to be filed within 3 months after conversion.

Our difficulty started when the bank filed Form 5 instead of form 4 upon conversion of the dollars. That is normally what they would do.

So it is at this point you must make clear to your banker your intentions. Don't allow him/her to suggest you are wrong or misinformed. Believe me if they have no experience with foreign investors that is exactly what they will tell you!

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viewpoint says on Oct 9, 2005, 06:33:

TRESSEL Just file your form(s) 4 & 11 on the first tranaction immediately and you should be OK. You have 90 days from the date of your incoming wire transfer to file the form 11. Probably the Form 4 is late but if you file it right away you should be OK. The bank the receiving your incoming wire should have filed the FORM 4 so start with them and maybe retain someone to assist you. The biggest problem AZTEC and I faced is that most of the professionals in Colombia don't know anything about the filing requirements so you have to reach the few that do. Move fast as that will show creditability and that helps in this case I found out.

You can transfer those funds without your banks consent through the central bank. I would go over the head of that bank manager to his or her supervisor and make your appeal. If their is a language barrier go get an attorney or have the realtor solve the problem.

I have accounts with BanColombia and Conavi and never had a problem like that. I remember that wire transfers for Conanvi had to be picked up at the central bank and that was never a problem.

I could help you better with a phone call in Medellin but I am out of my element where you are. There is another service provider that will cost you about 2-3% if you negoiate the fee down from their scheduled fees. They will negoiate but you have to ask. Your transaction is large so they will deviate. Try it as it might work. They can put it directly into any account in Colombia. They are used to smaller transactions and higher views but I am told they will negoiate a good exchange rate and fee for a larger transaction.
http://www.viamericas.com/login.asp

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Cel says on Oct 9, 2005, 11:02:

Buying or Leasing Apartment in Cali. Cali Plaza is located near 6th. Avenue; The main tourist area in Cali. The owner is American. He has recently decided to sell some of the apartments. Mostly to Americans. There is security at the main entrance 24/7. Cali Plaza is one of the newest buildings in the area. The apartments are nice, plus the building has a few 1 bedroom suites for rent the same as a hotel. You can check out their website at www.CaliPlaza.com.

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mantis says on Oct 9, 2005, 12:50:

Medellin apartment I signed the paperwork for my purchase a few weeks ago. I made a minimal deposit into the developers account at Bancolombia before i left and have 30-days to send the rest (the place will be finished in November). Last week i wired so more money into their account. I will send the rest next week. When should file the form 4 and 11 in this case. Should i do it when i send the remainder of the money or should i do it now. The person i am working with is very knowledgable but i want to make sure i don't do something wrong before it is too late (or too expensive) to fix it. I guess my major question is since i am sending money to the developers account directly are the rules the same for filing these forms. I know i have to file them but from reading several posts it sounds like it is more of an issue when you are sending money to a personal account. Maybe I don't exactly understand the difference between each form. I am heading back down next month to check on the place, i plan on making sure everything is ok at that point (if that is not to late). Also, any words of wisdom on getting utilities in my name would be appreciated as well...

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tressel says on Oct 9, 2005, 20:28:

form 4 & 11 - view point, aztec, and calipro Thanks to all of you! What a big problem. My problem now is, 1)When I bought the first apartment, I transferred US funds to the sellers US bank! How can I file form 4 now?...and, 2)On the purchase of the 2nd apartment, If I continue to have a problem with the wire transfer I may have to carry in pesos, use western union, and ATMs. How can I file form 4 if I have to complete the purchase this way?

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tressel says on Oct 10, 2005, 18:14:

thank you viewpoint and aztec. i have been interviewing and i think i am going to bogota to hire a good attorney to clean up my mess now while it's recent and hopefully finalize my new transaction.

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CanadaMan says on Oct 10, 2005, 20:36:

Calipro , aztec , viewpoint

My Primo's wife owns 3 houses in Medellin , she was born in Medellin and has been in Canada for 8 years.. She is also a Canadian citizen now along with her Colombian citizenship.

I wonder how this affects her is she sells and tries to get money out of Colombia ?

Formerly WidowerfromCanada...I am engaged to a wonderful Peruviana.

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Douglas says on Oct 12, 2005, 20:03:

Wiring Money I tried to wire $9,000.00 from my US Bank to Conavi last week and they would not accept it because there was no one there to sign for it, so they are sending it back to the US, but said it would take 30 days. Does anyone know how to open a bank account without a cedula? I have tried, even Citibank in Colombia, but they will not let me?

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calipro says on Oct 12, 2005, 23:58:

Douglas I don't think that you can open a bank account without a cedula. I believe Hunter said he had a friend that did it but my personal experiance has been that you can't do swat in Colombia without a cedula.

"I tried to wire $9,000.00 from my US Bank to Conavi last week and they would not accept it because there was no one there to sign for it, so they are sending it back to the US.."

I have sent wires to my bank account in Colombia and just had an associate sign on my behalf when I wasn't there to accept it personally.

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Hunter says on Oct 13, 2005, 05:53:

Douglas Yes I had a friend open 2 accounts at differant banks without a cedula in Ctg.

Not heard of anybody else doing it, maybe he was just very lucky.

Hunter

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viewpoint says on Oct 13, 2005, 06:51:

DOUGLAS You can't send a wire in your name to Conavi without being in Colombia to sign for it. They will hold the funds for up to 30 days for your pickup but then return them. You need to change the wire instructions and make the wire payable to a trusted friend or family physically in Colombia ready to receive the funds (check) at the central bank and then deposit them into their account as you have no account. Welcome to Colombia NO CEDULA NO BANK ACCOUNT.

Everytime I have sent a wire transfer to my account at Conavi I had to be there to receive it. When I sent wires to BanColombia I didn't always have to be there to receive it. Now the banks are merged but maybe not the procedures.

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Hunter says on Oct 14, 2005, 06:50:

My friend returned to Ctg this summer and found that both bank accounts had been closed, he couldn't find out why.

I personnely think somebody at the bank cocked up by giving him the bank accounts and when somobody at the bank realised this, they closed his accounts down.

Hunter

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tressel says on Oct 14, 2005, 20:18:

Cedula From what I see you definately need a cedula to have a bank account. I think it's like a social security card? You can't wire transfer if you don't have a bank account. Best to do a western union and a money gram. They each allow $1500 US per day paid out in pesos or up to $7500 but you get a check, which will not be good for you. Do 3 days at each western union and money gram = $9000.

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ashley05 says on Oct 18, 2005, 12:13:

buying an apartment in cartagena hi, I have a question for you. I am planing to buy an apartament in cartagena. I never done this before and I was hoping you can tell me if there is any desadvantage in doing so, and how difficult is to manipulate the money to do so.

Another question: I am about to wire the first payment to the developers. I have instructions of how to do it. I know no matter what you have to pay a fee for wiring. Do you know what is the most affordable way to wire money to Colombia? If you don't mind asking how much did you pay for the $45,000 dollars you sent and how?

Thanks.

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