I'm betting desi'll love this one. ;)

goin_south says on May 31, 2008, 13:25:

good 'Headline/Title Writing'... slguy ;-)

My first impression is: so what's a lil more blood on top of it all? you and another gun slinger, and he's still breathing,,, with gun in hand... whatcha gonna do? give him a few more shots? Nope. Take 'em out. Total Annihilation. Right Simon? Si.

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 31, 2008, 13:32:

Dear Duck,
the author of that article (and I agree) seems to think it would be better for COLOMBIA in the long run if the bloodletting stops here. It's not a case of jolene jolene don't take my man just because you can.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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goin_south says on May 31, 2008, 13:41:

me llama, Patico Cariñoso?
Muchas Gracias, Des....

Yes, I understood what the author meant.
I'm just stating my own opinion.
You shoulda directed that to "Dear slguy"... jja... he's the one who baited your commentary.
The Question not really being, however, what I think or you think, but what will Uribe Do?

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 31, 2008, 13:48:

I really really think that Uribe ought to ask me. And then do as I say. It would work out good for everybody. Except perhaps for the bad guys.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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aztec says on May 31, 2008, 14:44:

My visceral reaction is that Uribe should kill them all. However, I know Desideria is correct and the Country would be better off in the long run if there is a negotiated resolution.

This is the time for the government to be magnanimous in an effort to heal wounds. The President must remember these are Colombians and he is sworn to look after his people.

Having said that, I hope he gives them very little time to make up their minds!

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slguy says on May 31, 2008, 14:57:

"The President must remember these are Colombians and he is sworn to look after his people"

ummmm...if you say so. this would personally be the last of my considerations....

but there is no harm in giving them a very short window of opportunity to lay down arms, before unleashing the hounds of helll....;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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billyb says on May 31, 2008, 14:59:

Desi, since we have already agreed too much already today, I think eventually there will be a negotiated solution, but Colombia should increase the pressure on the FARC to make it even more likely that will come to the negotiating table and to have them be a weak as possible when they do. The ideal would be that the only thing negotiated would be the terms of their surrender.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 31, 2008, 15:13:

Colombia is not unique in having to face the difficult situation of coming to terms with its enemy within. Aztec summarized very nicely what I have been trying to say all along: it's time for the president to act like the President of all Colombians; the rich and the poor, the landed gentry and the displaced peasants, the godos/neocons, the liberals, the commies, the reds, the blues, the blacks the Indigenous, the ones who go to the Mass at 12 and the ones who go to the Mass at 6 p.m and the ones who don't go to the Mass.

I would also have to say now that President Uribe has reached one of his main objectives: he hasn't destroyed the guerrilla but he has weakened them enough to bring them now to a negotiated peace. To magnaninmously offer them a participation in the country's political life. Not all of it is his doing however; Tirofijo had been dying for a long time , of old age, of liver or prostate cancer that is something that can't be credited to Uribe.

Now, if Uribe manages to bring back Ingrid and the other hostages alive I would have to admit, even if I don't personally much care for his style of leading his country, that he has done a good job. Oh yes, a couple of thing too; retribution for the displaced campesinos and life sentences with no amenities to all Paraco capos after they are released from US prisons. One more thing; graciously step down at the end of his second term, job well done, but now it's somebody else's turn.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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slguy says on May 31, 2008, 15:18:

offer the FARC a part in the country's political life- but treat the paracos much worse, after they disbanded as a unfied force years ago? pardon me, but your red beret is showing, des.

"Not all of it is his doing however"

more "yea, but..."

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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billyb says on May 31, 2008, 15:28:

Desi, we don't really know how Tirofijo died, do we (unless you are naive enough to believe the FARC never lies)? For all we know he could have died in of the 31 bombardments of his camp since January.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 31, 2008, 15:29:

No, I don't have a red beret, slguy, I prefer to wear my hair hanging down and no ideological insignia on me because I don't have a political agenda....but as they say here...a normal person's heart is located slightly off the center...to the left of it;)

And no, I don't believe Mono Jojoy or any other of the military leaders of the FARCS should have any place in the political life of Colombia. They should be in prison for life. There are, however, other people, lower in the ranks,perhaps, who may feel that they would want to be part of the political life in Colombia and they should be granted that....the problem is just HOW any leftist ex-guerrilla fighters will ever be able to believe that they can survive in Colombia, in the legit political life of Colombia after the massacre of the UP members in the eighties?

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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slguy says on May 31, 2008, 15:41:

"the eighties" being the key phrase - 20 years ago was a long time ago, for most of their troops today, I'm guessing. They have the evidence of how their comrades who surrendered have been treated - that is, if they receive any real news.....plus, they're very close to having no choice.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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billyb says on May 31, 2008, 15:48:

"I'm guessing. They have the evidence of how their comrades who surrendered have been treated - that is, if they receive any real news.....'

I believe Ivan marquez complained in one of his emails to the dearly departed Reyes that they were constantly bombarded over the radio with messages from demobilized FARC guerrillas urging their ex-comrades to turn thesmelves in and take advantage of government re-insertion programs.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 31, 2008, 16:55:

I've often said and I will say it for one more time that I support legitimacy. If the guerrilla members really have a political agenda let them bring it up to a debate on legitimate political forums; postulate for councils, run for mayors, candidate for the Congress, form a party or join the already existing legitimate parties. There's dire need for social investment in Colombia and while it is neglected there will always be a subversion. 25 years is a long time in the life of a 20-year-old recruit but the people who were politically active in the eighties have not forgotten the fate of the Union Patriotica.

Billy, I believe no more in info coming from the FARCS than I believe in Uribe's statistics. I haven't read any worse lies from Reyes' computer files than I have read from the reports of the Government. Take an example: when the the Cali councilmen were executed the FARC reported of a surprise attack at their camp by unknown entity ...this very same thing was confirmed by Reyes's computer findings: there was a confusionand a mistake; the guerrilla thought they were being attacked by the military or another faction in arms, but it was their own people. So, they did not lie in their initial report on what happened.

My problem is that I expect so much MORE of the legit government of Colombia. I can't compare them with a clandestine, subversive group like the FARCS. The misplaced Paraco laptops, USB- memory sticks, cel phones disappeared mysteriously from their prison "cells"...the Yidis Medina affair, a third of the Congress being investigated for parapolitics, all this and more....

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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billyb says on May 31, 2008, 17:05:

"Take an example: when the the Cali councilmen were executed the FARC reported of a surprise attack at their camp by unknown entity ...this very same thing was confirmed by Reyes's computer findings: there was a confusionand a mistake; the guerrilla thought they were being attacked by the military or another faction in arms, but it was their own people. So, they did not lie in their initial report on what happened."

But Desi, in the interest of honesty, we should also mention how on those same computer files there was also an email from Marulanda directing them to blame the killings on an army rescue attempt.

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Simon says on May 31, 2008, 17:06:

Yeah, that's what we need, a bunch of terrorists involved in our politics. The FARC have had many chances to go legit but they continue to take the path of terror and destruction. They alone chose their fate.



"There's dire need for social investment in Colombia and while it is neglected there will always be a subversion."

Then where are the subversions in Haiti, Guatemala, Ecuador, Brasil, or Bolivia? These countries all have more poverty than Colombia. "Dire need" is no excuse for people to resort to terrorist activities.

"Take an example: when the the Cali councilmen were executed the FARC reported of a surprise attack at their camp by unknown entity ...this very same thing was confirmed by Reyes's computer findings: there was a confusionand a mistake; the guerrilla thought they were being attacked by the military or another faction in arms, but it was their own people. So, they did not lie in their initial report on what happened."

So did that give the FARC the right to execute the councilmen?

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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robi666 says on May 31, 2008, 17:13:

"So, they did not lie in their initial report on what happened."

Well, Desi, about the Calenos, FARC initially said it was the army that attacked them.

And RR and Monsieur Marulanda also advice in one of their email their happy companions to lie about it and use the fact to blame Uribe of the murders.

Also, I remind you that FARC kept the bodies a long time to make investigation difficult.

This is one shitty fact that should not be used as an example of FARC not lying, when infact they did and tried to use the dead for their political obscene purposes.

Although I am one of the few that don't like when people party on dead bodies here on PBH, I'd say that none of them, lower or higher rank deserve to be in politic and any better than PLOMO.
If they will be forgiven, they will not deserve it.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 31, 2008, 17:24:

Billy, yes, I read that too. Marulanda wanted them to blame it on the military, but the initial report was not an outright lie.

Simon, no, of course not. But you have not comprenended basically anything I have said. I spoke not of what is right or wrong. That is your interpretation. Not anything I said. I have been reading the files from Reyes' computer, trying to catch an outright lie and haven't been able to.I have discovered devious messages, like the one we have commented upon.

We're back at the beginning here. You have to understand one thing, however, Simon. I have Colombia's best interest in mind. It might not concur with your idea what's the best for Colombia, but I'm honest about what I think and believe.

Yes, we need a more nuanced political spectrum in Colombia. We also need much higher participation en elections. It's a minority of Colombians who exercise their political and civic right to vote.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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docwilliam says on May 31, 2008, 20:12:

I think President Uribe has a good handle on things and I look forward to seeing what will happen with FARC. I do disagree with inviting them into the Political scene. Not to say Colombia is the US but does anyone remember what political status "THE REBELS" of the US civil war were given, at the end?

"There's no time to panic"

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slguy says on May 31, 2008, 20:36:

"but does anyone remember what political status "THE REBELS" of the US civil war were given, at the end?"

that would be the War of Northern Agression you're referring to, doc? ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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christobeldawg says on May 31, 2008, 21:02:

I am from the south, and the Northern Agressors took away our land, our homes. The SC congress was actually over 50% black, by government force, for a few years after the war ended. Finally, calmer heads prevailed, but then we had the Jim Crow era of segregation for another 100 years.
Things cannot be forced by military or by government laws. Things have to progress naturally.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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goin_south says on Jun 1, 2008, 00:11:

ja, ja.. Dawg... I'm one of the descendants (I guess) of those Northern Aggressors, but... we seem to get along pretty well at this point...

Hell, maybe cause I've been living in the Land of the Exiled & Oppressed Cajuns for long enough, now.. jja

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 1, 2008, 01:35:

What I remember reading was thatthet said that they had been attacked by an "unidentified group", but whatever.

Rubito, social investment has been the classical case of too little too late. While Uribe's doctored statistics show a significant drop in poverty since the nineties, that has been already explained with the change of methodology (before the poverty and absolute poverty were counted together, now they count just poverty and have re-labelled absolute poverty and do not imclude it in the statistics. If you ad upp those two like you did before, the percentual improvement is only about 3 %

I saw little evidence of any real improvement in poverty levels in my beloved Cali during the last time I visited, two years ago at Uribe's re-election times. Beggars, whole displaced families roaming the streets after nightfall with small babes in their arms, asking for money, looking for a place the bed down the little ones. Tiny hands at the streetlights, small, almost apologetical voices...hungry eyes, late night. Things have not improved much in Cali since I first walked the Sixth thirty years ago...perhaps just become more dangerous and more degenerate.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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rocinante says on Jun 1, 2008, 05:10:

Ain't read the whole thread....

"My visceral reaction is that Uribe should kill them all. However, I know Desideria is correct and the Country would be better off in the long run if there is a negotiated resolution. " Aztec

I know I may be jumping the gun but does anyone think Uribe would win the Nobel Peace Prize for peacefully dismantling the FARC during his presidency?

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 1, 2008, 05:19:

Rubi...we went through the whole rigamarole already. The statistics ARE figured out in a different way. That 48% does NOT include absolute poverty.

Bogotá maybe, but no thanks to Uribe. Bogota has had some very progressive mayors in the past couple of decades.

That centralism is one of the major PROBLEMS in Colombia as Bogotá sucks up the resources from the social investment from the rest of the country. Medellin has been benefitted too, but not the country as much as a whole.

So, when you speak of Colombia please do use the word "Bogotá" instead of Colombia. They are not really synonyms, not yet anyway.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 1, 2008, 05:25:

There has been too much bloodletting already for him to qualify for that, roci. Now, if he had disarmed the paras, brought them to real justice (not that joke of an agreement he made with them), disarmed the FARC and brought the jefes to justice by negotiating with them I would be at the dealing out the Nobel Peace Prize in Oslo myself:)

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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rocinante says on Jun 1, 2008, 05:48:

It seems the world outside of Colombia only knows the FARC - I was specific with the just FARC as obviously what are the chances of Uribe or anyone restoring total peace by dismanlting both left and right insurgencies. The paras are disarmed?

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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podborski says on Jun 1, 2008, 06:01:

desi says:
"Now, if he had disarmed the paras, brought them to real justice (not that joke of an agreement he made with them), disarmed the FARC and brought the jefes to justice by negotiating with them"

now how would he come to an agreement with the paras that "brought them to real justice"? Why would they agree to it? Both sides have to agree to end a negotiation you know.

And why only the 'jefes' in FARC have to be brought to justice ? And "by negotiating"?

You're unhappy with the negotiations that disarmed the paras but want the same thing for FARC?

Or you think the FARC leaders are going to voluntarily sacrifice themselves and go to jail for the rest of their lives?

Sorry but I think you lack an understanding of basic human nature (self preservation).

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aztec says on Jun 1, 2008, 06:09:

"There has been too much bloodletting already for him (Uribe) to qualify for that, roci." Then how in the heck did former palistinans leader Yasser Arafat the Monster, win the award?

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podborski says on Jun 1, 2008, 06:54:

aztec, I think there are a few scandinavians on the Nobel committee...they seem to ignore violence if it's done by the left : )

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hongo_joe says on Jun 1, 2008, 08:02:

For the record, Arafat's prize was shared by Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin.

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aztec says on Jun 1, 2008, 08:09:

If you would like I can provide a list of more terrorists who have also been honored with this less than honorable award.

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docwilliam says on Jun 1, 2008, 08:09:

slyguy, are you ref. to the cold winter weather of the North? "Cold front" is the worse aggressor from the North I've ever seen. :-)

"There's no time to panic"

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dwmte7 says on Jun 1, 2008, 08:27:

i'm with you on this one, guy....UNFORTUNATELY (somebody auta tell uribe this) , not unlike bull fighting, cock fighting, dog fighting, et al; blood letting is one of colombia's national sports. with not too much love lost for the various armed factions on colombia's landscape, when they begin what appears to be, 'the final offensive', the cry won't be 'help these guys', rather, "NO PRISONERS!" not unlike the soviets when they entered berlin. they had no soft spots for the krauts.

dwmte

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 1, 2008, 08:59:

Someone at the NYT editorial board didn't do enough research when they wrote this,
"Right-wing paramilitaries have been demobilized under a plan that offered commanders lenient prison sentences in exchange for confessions and turning over ill-gotten assets. Foot soldiers were offered training and stipends to rejoin Colombian society. FARC leaders, which still see themselves as a political movement, are unlikely to accept these terms. While those guilty of the most serious crimes should face Colombian justice, Mr. Uribe should consider offering the rebels a role in Colombian politics."

The law that demobilized the Paramilitaries is not specific to them. The FARC could walk out of the jungles today with their hands up and get the EXACT same deal. So why haven't they? Because either they, as a group, are not interested in demoblizing in integrating into society, or else they're holding out for a better deal. Meanwhile, of course, thousands of FARC as individuals are coming in from the cold, anyway, and appear to be fairly happy with they treatment they receive.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 1, 2008, 09:02:

One more thing, the FARC has been incredibly active in preventing political participation by people in the areas they controlled. They've killed hundreds or possibly thousands of political candidates, including leftist ones who they accused of "collaborating" with an illegitimate political process.

Now, I don't think many people on this board think it's fair to call Colombia's democracy "illegitimate" , but apparently those in the Secretariat feel that way.

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dwmte7 says on Jun 1, 2008, 09:42:

"NO PRISONERS!!!"

dwmte

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slguy says on Jun 1, 2008, 09:51:

I've been giving a lot of thought to des' position. it finally dawned on me what really drives her political persuasion. I feel stupid for not seeing it sooner.

our dear des is an unrequieted idealist. whichever side offends her romantic idealism less gets her support. FARC? the started out trying to right some social wrongs, so they get some slack. AUC? they started life to combat FARC, who truly wanted to help poor folks, so AUC/paras are the devil incarnate. all else springs from this idealism....never mind the realities of today, the important thing is how it SHOULD be - not what is truly possible.

our des - the ultimate idealist. :-)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 1, 2008, 10:33:

I believe in working towards "how it should be" should be everybody's ultimate goal. Is that too much to ask? Does that make an idealist? (Admittingly I do have an idealistic streak in me, but it does not make blind to life's realities either. It's just like having the ultimate goal just beyond your reach all the time, but as long as you are working towards it you haven't lost the grip yet).

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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gatogris says on Jun 1, 2008, 11:02:

Labeling someone an idealist allows the labeler to don the mantle of pragmatist, a rhetorical tactic particularly common in certain typecast gender relations, as in "Well now Wilma, I understand you want to help but dadgum it, the world just doesn't work that way little missy."

This technique is particularly common in cases where the "idealist" has ideals and is arguing that they be implemented, and the "pragmatist" has a certain agenda that he wishes to hide. As in, "yes Dr. King you have a noble and idealistic cause, but these things take time to put in to practice. We must be patient (when JFK was concerned about losing political support in the South)."

Who get's to decide what is "truly possible?" Ghandi led a non-violent, successful independence movement in a country saturated with centuries of blood and oppression. Lord Grenville, against all expectations, led a movement to abolish the British slave trade in 1807, a trade which was immensly profitable for England as a whole and to him personally. After enduring generations of an institutionalised racist regime of systematic oppression and domination, South Africa did not erupt into civil war as many expected.

Could certain members of the FARC rejoin Colombian society in a productive fashion after decades in the jungle? If history is any guide, hell yes. Will they? Well that is where the debate gets interesting.

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slguy says on Jun 1, 2008, 11:43:

everyone wants to work towards "how it should be".

But railing against the best current solutions available to problems ("those paracos need to be accountable to the campesinos!" - this will never happen, and you know it. life in a US prison is FAR more punitive than anything that happens in colombia...but you complain about it, ignoring the CURRENT realities.) instead of accepting the realities involved seems counterproductive, to my way of thinking. Especially when you seem to think that FARC ought to be less accountable for their 40-year history of atrocities simply because of their long-since-forgotten philosophical roots...

In some ways, des, Don Quixote had nothing on you....;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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slguy says on Jun 1, 2008, 11:58:

oh, and btw, gatogris - des knows VERY well the amount of respect I have for her. I would hope she also knows that nothing I say to her has even the slightest bit of intended condecension - unlike your completely off base analysis of my pragmatism.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 1, 2008, 12:48:

`Slguy, no offense taken, we're just talking.

But, you have to admit that gatogris has a point in the third paragraph: "who get's to decide what's truly possible". History is full of great examples of how non-violent radical change has made people's lives so much better. Look at the post-dictatorshop Chile, for example. People have been returning from exile ever since the end of the Pinochet regime of terror and Argentina's black years of ruling boots are a bitter memory.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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slguy says on Jun 1, 2008, 13:26:

I don't think that anyone gets to make these calls for society as a whole. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. ;)

BUT - Ghandi didn't work his magic in 2 months. No one else who is faced with deeply rooted societal problems can, either.

The thing is - they'll ALWAYS be cause for "yea, but..." but what does it really accomplish? In my view, to "yea, but" constantly without ever throwing a bone to the guys who make positive changes only casts one as the eternal malcontent. To constantly choose to focus on what's NOT accomplished while not taking some pleasure in forward strides is a tough side to rally support from.

To offer an inverse example - what if every time someone bashed Bush here, someone's response was "yea, but we've had no terrorist attacks on our soil since 9/11"....or "yea, but he wants a FTA w/ colombia approved!"? Bush led us into an immoral war, with no end plan - but never mind that, because we've had no terrorists attacks on our soil since 9/11? How much credibility is accomplished by the contrarian who has an innate inability to recognize and appreciate any positives in a situation? (this is a generality, not a finger pointing...)

Positive change is almost never an overnight, one step process. It's a series of little steps. I honestly don't see how any of the stuff that we all wish for colombia can happen unless/until the violent, organized groups - both paracos and leftists - are dealt with. Anyone with any clarity of vision can see that in the past few years more has been accomplished towards these goals than in the last 40 years combined. It's simply a fact. One can disagree with methodolgy, with philosophy, and also can complain that the progress doesn't meet ANY utopian standards - but progress it is, through any realistic lens. The facts of the matter are, sometimes the only way to deal with a mad dog is with a bigger mad dog. In this case, the bigger dog can be desposed of at the ballot box, when the colombian people want him gone. Not true of the paras or FARC.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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dwmte7 says on Jun 1, 2008, 13:43:

guy/desi...imho...if the whole world stopped thinking in and speaking of life in "would have"; "could have"; "should have"; and "if" our perspectives would be more in line with what "is" and not on the past, the future or?????. too, that being in the present tends, in my experience to lighten folks up about what ever...the past, the present, the future, dreams, etc.

one of my teachers once told me, ".....douglas, 'is, is'; get used to it." thus he.

dwmte

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goin_south says on Jun 1, 2008, 15:47:

Desi: "how it should be" should be everybody's ultimate goal. Is that too much to ask?"

YES.
That will happen in another world. not this one.
Too many people with too many differing opinions about 'HOW IT SHOULD BE'.

But, I think I agree, and know what you mean.
It should be the way I think it should be, because the way I think it should be probably isn't too far from the way you think it should be.

WTF knows?
Anyone agree with that?

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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goin_south says on Jun 1, 2008, 15:49:

Most of us (guys) here on pbh think the way it should be, ....would be to have each of us living in Colombia, with no problems, no farc, no work, and plenty of great food and drink, with a minimum of twenty colombianitas per hombre, serving his every need ;-))

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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goin_south says on Jun 1, 2008, 15:49:

you mean... WE DON'T AGREE???

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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Papi de Alejo says on Jun 1, 2008, 16:21:

I have to agree with Desi here. Yes what is is; but why can't we strive to enable what should be? I can't for one moment believe that knowing that there are people living in estrato 1 and knowing the conditions that exist there one can simply shrug and say "what is is". I have to believe that if there is something that I can do to make life a little easier for one person, why shouldn't I. If we all strived to make it a tiny bit easier for others the combined effect is magnified. Clearly, if the government took such a position to do something to improve the lot of the vast majority of the poor, real change is possible. I truly believe that with or without the government change is inevitable and I am beginning to feel the winds of change (maybe distant breezes). The question is whether the change will be managed or will the change manage. If the "what is is" mantra is adopted, the change will manage; if the "what should be" mantra is adopted, the change can be managed.

PdA

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dwmte7 says on Jun 2, 2008, 05:39:

amen

dwmte

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 2, 2008, 07:41:

I didn't say ANYWHERE that the poor were WORSE off. Statistacally, the whole population seems to a little better off, which is the EXPECTED development in any third world country; it would be a total disaster if morbi/mortality rates for infants, literacy indicators etc. had gone backwards

I have never been offended by the presence of beggars, destitutes, homeless, lepers, amputeés, street urchins etc; yes, I get upset but not offended. ´What I find offensive is people who have no conscience, but spend the hours of their worthless lives from mall to mall, from one fine restaurant to another, from party to party while whole families roam the dark streets of unsafe Cali looking for a place to bed their babes...because they have been displaced and sent to a life of uncertainty, misery and starvation by the greed of these same people who have "needed" their llands to grow profitable export crops like oil palm.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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dwmte7 says on Jun 2, 2008, 15:07:

the status quo in colombia is so deeply engrained. the haves, like having and will do just about anything to keep the balance of power/economics on their side. pity/charity is not common there.

was up at my friends finca in llano grande--a wealthy family who raise the finest paso finos in colombia--and one of our lady friends, with a huge diamond on her hand and a new mercedes outside commented...'i don't know about these campesinos...they have their cows, their chickens and their gardens...why do they always want more. they're greedy'

well even my rich friends were a bit taken by the remark. they have and are comfortable with that, but not to the greedy extent the gal expressed.

dwmte

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tomtom33 says on Jun 2, 2008, 15:14:

Guess I don't know many rich folks. The ones I know are very concerned about the poor and give things to them.

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gatogris says on Jun 2, 2008, 15:29:

Which point, I suppose, brings us full circle, in the sense that the FARC, inspired by others but also by conditions evident all around their own land, originally believed, probably with some justification, and certainly with plenty of thereotical support, that armed rebellion was the only way to address this problem so "deeply engrained."

Did the FARC have other motivations in 1964, such as self-aggrandizement, the habit of violence, personal power, the addiction to the ferment of action, and just downright stubborness? Definitely. So did Che Guevara. Does this fact mean that this completely discounts the role ideology played in their original efforts? No. Does this mean that all ideology put into practice fundamentally leads to a zero sum game, us against them, death to the unbeliever? No.

The problem is not that they were evil in chosing to fight a guerilla war (although perhaps it could be argued from an ethical standpoint that they have since crossed this line), but rather that it turned out that they were wrong about what was good for Colombia, and could never bring themselves to admit it, preferred instead to fight to self-annihilation and to great cost to those they claimed to represent rather than look this fact in the face.

But this historical travesty should never indicate that ideals have no place in politics. Such a position would be cynical and self-serving in the extreme. Ideals have every right to be present in the discussion.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 2, 2008, 15:52:

I agree entirely Gato. Without ideals politics is the ugliest game on earth.

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docwilliam says on Jun 2, 2008, 18:41:

"the FARC has been incredibly active in preventing political participation by people in the areas they controlled. They've killed hundreds or possibly thousands of political candidates, including leftist ones who they accused of "collaborating" with an illegitimate political process."

Mr. Hollywood......it's the Communist way and it always has been.

"There's no time to panic"

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