Ignorance breeds Uribistas

juancegomez says on Oct 17, 2005, 15:27:

Ignorance can breed many things, good and bad "Uribe is also apparently a ‘good’ paisa name, yet it still disturbs me the amount of people on this forum who justify their support for Uribe because he’s ‘paisa’."

I'm not a "paisa", but I haven't noticed that myself. I suppose some do think that way, though.

"Then again relations or similarities between the two could always be debated but not now."

More relations than similarities I'd said, but that's not the point.

"Another disturbing remark I have heard made by many Uribistas is their declaration of love for him. This is perhaps the most disturbing comment I have ever heard."

I have had heard it a few times, but far from "many".

It would be disturbing if it was "love" on a literal level, but otherwise...plenty of people have also expressed declarations of "hate", which is by definition the opposite of "love". Which would also be disturbing on a literal level.

"So when I delved deeper into this love affair, I unfortunately found a shallow love."

Well, IMHO, most love is shallow, just as is most hate. They are both basic emotions after all, not much more. In a way, even lesser animals have them.

"Apparently, although the roads may be safer (yet British members of the Embassy are still not permitted to travel overland) I was told that staying in towns near the major highways is unadvisable. This is because police from these towns are being used to keep the highways safer."

An interesting view which probably is based on a partial truth, but other than being hearsay, I don't suppose you've got something more substantial?

"Therefore those wealthy Colombian planning their yearly trip to Cartagena can drive safely from their bubble of wealth in the north of Bogota straight to their apartment in Bocagrande, while those living in the towns suffer increased crime rates."

Same thing I mentioned above...in fact, even more applicable here.

"Perhaps for some then travelling has become safer….or maybe it’s just because Uribe tells them it’s safer???…."

One would have to make a practical and widespread investigation to reach any definite conclusions.

"Apart from this solitary reason behind their declaration of love, the average, educated Uribista could come up with very little else."

Possibly, though I doubt there's scientific data to support such a conclusion, let alone the widespread existence of too many such "declarations of love".

"But the pro-Uribe press and media"

Well...I wouldn't really classify all the Colombian press and media as automatically "pro-Uribe" in the sense that you are employing in the rest of your post.

"will continue to plug military ‘successes’"

There's certainly been a degree of an exaggeration, but there have been *some* military successes, if you compare the current situation with the one that was existing under the later Samper years. I don't suppose you'll argue that absolutely nothing has changed since 1996, will you? Of course, not due to Uribe himself magically resolving everything in a vacuum, that's not the point.


"label left-wing groups as ‘terrorists’"

Depends on your definition of what constitutes a "left-wing group" and what constitutes "terrorism".

If you are speaking about legal opposition groups, then I'd ask you to provide evidence of the "pro-Uribe media and press" classifying them as terrorist.

If you are speaking about the FARC and ELN, it's a completely different subject.

If you are speaking about the claims made by Uribe in some of his speeches, that's also another matter which deserves to be discussed on its own.

"and demonstrate how much more wonderful and safe Colombia now is under Uribe."

I guess we're not seeing the same news programs and newspapers...the situation is far from idillic (sp?) and many problems have been clearly highlighted.

"But no matter how many times the national anthem is played, only the ignorant will be fooled."

Your conclusion, respectable for what it is.

Still, I wouldn't be so absolute ...ignorant people can sometimes have a better perspective on things, and people with a greater degree of knowledge are not immune from being "fooled" or even fooling themselves.

And guess what, there's a wide spectrum of ignorance and foolishness, not limited to just simple "Uribism" or "Anti-Uribism".

0 funny, 0 helpful.

parce says on Oct 17, 2005, 16:06:

'Official' crime rates were reduced drastically under Hitler,
Mussolini, Pinochet etc. This is not a comparison between Uribe and these people, but merely pointing out that 'official' crime rates do not reflect whether violence is increasing or decreasing; and, if it indeed is decreasing, how this is being achieved?

0 funny, 0 helpful.

juancegomez says on Oct 17, 2005, 17:53:

Thing is, people of all political colors automatically assume that somne of the statistics are true when it suits them and some of them false when they don't, even if they don't have statistical data to prove it either way (to support the statistics or to dispprove them). That being the case, they are all only partially indicative of reality, most of the time.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kernow62 says on Oct 17, 2005, 19:01:

I don't base things on figures, but if you ask most Colombians they feel they are able to travel the roads more safely than in the past. The domestic tourism market has improved. Do you think these Colombians would travel if the situation had not improved. Now whether you put the improvement down to something Uribe has done or not, that is entirely up to you.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

aztec says on Oct 18, 2005, 05:14:

parce... ...reduced crime rate if you don't count murdering millions of Jews!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

parce says on Oct 18, 2005, 07:20:

Exactly the point I'm trying to make, how can educated people vote for Uribe?? Maybe you've answered your own point, for purely selfish reasons. Improve their little bubble in the north of Bogota for example...Actually I know many educated Colombians who are anti-Uribe yet are less vocal. I have actually just moved from Colombia in the last week. And more often than not, those who live in the country often have less access to, or knowledge of, what is actually happening in their country. I'm not arguing whether crime rates have increased or decreased I'm challenging how these statistics are created, or how they are achieved. And as I said before I wasn't comparing Uribe to Hitler (maybe you should try reading the comment again) but stating that statistics do not always reveal the whole truth, as the person below said in the comment about killing millions of jews. This definitely was not in the official statistics under Hitler.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

ColomBuenazo says on Oct 18, 2005, 07:46:

COLOMBIAN MEDIEVAL SOCIETY The initial posting portrays an insightful and accurate picture of what most URIBE's supporters are like in Colombia, albeit knowingly they happily and willingly stand by their President.

Although Uribe's safety and economic achievements are to be acknowledge, to justify those in terms of his "PAISA-ness" or his last name is a sad example of REGIONALISM, CRONYISM and MESIANISM. The same holds true for some other country groups whether they are VALLUNOS, ROLOS, COSTEÑOS etc. although Paisas have always accented this trend more; to the point that they wanted to establish their own PROTOREPUBLIC sometime in the past. Colombia's society still reflects these deeply entrenched PAROCHIAL values pertaining to class and status, which usually belong to the European medieval and Latin American colonial days.

The citizens of a country can always be rallied and manipulated under two banners: 1)PATRIOTISM and 2)RELIGION . At times, URIBE has used both.
Once the religious and patriotic card is pulled, the majority of a country's population follows the Politicians' (in this case the President) wishes.

The lack of peoples' RATIONALITY and CRITICAL THINKING, lead them to not question, antagonize or organize against the status quo.

Why is it that most Latinamericans are still so fixated with MESIANIC, CAUDILLO leaders? Look at Uribe's Colombia or Chavez' Venezuela.
Don't most Latinamericans believe in the strenghtening of the democratic system? How much more time do they need to waste to understand that Politics and ideas are NOT about the politician but rather about IDEAS themselves and their strengthening and transcendence?

Bogotá's recent political history is a good start and a telling example to Colombia and other Latinamerican countries about the deveopment of ideas and the strengthening of political processes.

"Fear turns lions into sheeps so the Shepherd easily herds them"

0 funny, 0 helpful.

pepster says on Oct 18, 2005, 08:44:

Weak Colombia has had a succession of useless and weak presidents. They're all the same..same rhetoric with an extremely corrupt senate.

Democracy in theory has always been alive in Colombia. It's the oldest democracy in latin america. Democracy is not the culprit of the violence in Colombia.

It's corruption. People blame drugs...yes to some extent...but it boils down to corruption. If it's not drugs it's terrorism by thug criminals like the FARC.

Colombia has embraced Uribe because they're sick of the lip service and weakness of the establishment to punish the corrupt. Colombia has one of the worst judicial systmes in South America. Beautiful laws but rarely enforced.

Uribe, for the educated is the culmination of years of frustration with the idealistic and passsive approach. The ignorance does not lie in the Urbistas but in those who continue to do the same thing and expect a different outcome.

That is ignorace.

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 18, 2005, 09:30:

"Educated"... It's a myth that the support for Uribe is primarily among the "educated", "rich" or "elite" in Bogota and other big cities.

I've seen several independent and separate polls done on this subject and the man has a lot of support from a broad spectrum of Colombian society. The primary reason they cite is "increased security."

One might argue that they're misguided, just like one might argue that economically disadvantaged Bush supporters are supporting someone opposed to their interests, but that's how the numbers shake out.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 18, 2005, 12:52:

there's a sizable opposition to Uribe, especially among the academics. I just heard that Polo Demócratico y la Alternativa have joined forces and are going to run with one candidate. Even so, they don't amount to any serious danger to Uribe's re-election (which will probably go through) if the liberals don't join them, which seems to be a very unlikely scenario.

Cheers,
Desi
(agrees with parce that just listening to some of Uribe's staunchest supporters makes you really turn away from him)

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

0 funny, 0 helpful.

ARMacleod says on Oct 18, 2005, 16:26:

Uribistas? Friends, Amigos etc.

Again I have read so much and can agree with a lot of what is said on this subject.

The Adolf Hitler comment by aztec is at the least, in this case, inconsequential.

The remainder: parce, juance gomez, Tinto* Kerno62, GIB,colombueazo, Pepster, Mr Hollywood and of course My darling Desi.

Total words forwarded- 2850
Sentences- 179
Paragraphs- 95

How many of you have actually done anything other than pontificate your ideas on the situation?

If you study each thread you will see a point of view of an individual, much of which is brought about by that persons personal ideological circumstances. Not the situation bettering the country as a whole.

Again I am sorry that I have to stand on peoples toes, but, how many of these laymen lawyers etc, have done anything positive, how many are prepared to stand up and be counted?

I am aware that this site is intrinsically concerned with Colombia, But, look deeper. Every country in Suramerica is having the same problem to a greater or lesser extent. Am I wrong?

There is a programme on the UK TV at the moment, eleven disabled persons, some in wheelchairs, paralysed, without limbs, legs , blind, etc. they are travelling overland from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Uruguay to Chile. They have to have an armed guard with them.

Every country in Suramerica is unstable, this, when you consider the size and population has to be remarkable.

Is this a suramerican disease? And are the people there just totally physically, politically and morally corrupt?

Sensible answer from someone please, but, unless you have personally done something positive to redress the situation, I have no wish to hear from you. As I am an ‘ouslander' I will also shut up on this matter.

Nb: Everything stated on this topic may be found on the trashy tabloids on every country in the world and is no surprise to anyone.

My point: DO SOMETHING. STAND UP AND BE COUNTED.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

parce says on Oct 18, 2005, 16:45:

Jajaja Interesting how someone can write these comments without knowing the background of any of the people writing on this blog. This is a discussion of ideas and opinions. So before judging us and what we do (of which you have no idea) sit back and think a little.....

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Oct 18, 2005, 16:51:

Sorry to come in late on this discussion but I have been... in the Amazon jungle trying to find Ingrid. If I can just manage to rescue her, Uribe will not be reelected.

Plátano X
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

pepster says on Oct 19, 2005, 12:56:

Dear Sir, So you have decided by yourself that you personally know that all we do is pontificate and do nothing civically for our fellow man.

We Mr. ARMacleod for all your British sensibility you just can't keep down your stench of ignorance.

I suggest you look at your own paint and brush before applying that broad stroke.

By the way, it's South America. Last I heard, it was called in English not Spanglish.

Also, I see you want a sensible answer to your question. Well, perhaps you should know your history Mr. ARMacleod. It was your European breateren...the spaniards that raped and pillaged South America and left behind their legacy of treachery. Maybe, we should start there.

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

0 funny, 0 helpful.

aztec says on Oct 19, 2005, 16:21:

I would be... ...wary of trusting my welfare to "academics"! Their opinions can be very suspect.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Oct 19, 2005, 16:40:

Amen! Aztec, The problem with those pointy headed intellectuals is they make terrible soldiers. I mean instead of just obeying the orders and pulling the trigger, instead of shooting first and asking questions later... they tend to ask questions first, to reflect with due deliberation, to think critically... and... and.... and may never get around to pulling the trigger.

Plátano X
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

aztec says on Oct 19, 2005, 16:42:

platano What?

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Sr Tertius says on Oct 20, 2005, 16:12:

Admittedly, more questions than answers... but what do I know! "I asked why they loved Uribe so much, and the most common answer was that Colombia is a much safer place now. This belief is based on what?? The small bubble in which they live in the north of Bogota is safer? This in itself is debatable but then they go on to explain how now they can travel between cities (overland in their cars) without a worry."

Controversial Statement #1: "Kidnapping and murder rates are down DUE to Uribe." This is at least doubtful. I'd like some clarity if it is possible: how are "murders" counted? Being shot by the armed forces count as "murder"? Being illegally detained counts as kidnapping? and who is really responsible for such change? Local policies of major cities (most of them run by opponents of Uribe) appear to be very efficient in diminishing crime, ironically, through mostly conciliatory and police approaches. Is Uribe taking credit that he doesn't deserve?

Controversial (actually, no, FALSE!) Statement #2: "Uribe put the FARC in retreat". Now, this is absolutely and transparently false. Insurgent activities have increased during the Uribe administration relative to previous administrations. Certainly, how are these activities counted is an issue, but what is beyond any doubt is that the FARC influence in Arauca and Putumayo is much stronger than during the pre-Uribe/Pastrana years. Both had the same approach to these areas, and both obtained the same result: a strengthened insurgency. Of course, if Colombia for you is everything that lies in the road to la Costa or your finca, then they definitely did a good job.

"It is funny how here the more educated people seem to be supporting Uribe. The less educated or the ones with no education seem to be against him. How do you explain this?"

Duh!

"Don't most Latinamericans believe in the strenghtening of the democratic system? How much more time do they need to waste to understand that Politics and ideas are NOT about the politician but rather about IDEAS themselves and their strengthening and transcendence?

Bogotá's recent political history is a good start and a telling example to Colombia and other Latinamerican countries about the deveopment of ideas and the strengthening of political processes."

I couldn't agree more.

"Colombia has embraced Uribe because they're sick of the lip service and weakness of the establishment to punish the corrupt."

So, let me get it straight, Colombians are supportive of one of its most corrupt presidents in recent history because they are sick of corruption?? Should I enumerate the political scandals for which this administration has absolutely no answer? Moreover, this is the first administration that cannot contain its corruption to its own national borders, but is compelled to export it to Venezuela, in the form of bribes to government officials.

"The ignorance does not lie in the Urbistas but in those who continue to do the same thing and expect a different outcome."

Like... the Uribistas...

"there's a sizable opposition to Uribe, especially among the academics."

Yes, there is. Check: http://www.estudiocaos.com/caos/gaviria.htm. For sure, this is not a serious threat to Uribe's re-electionist appetite, but makes you wonder why the most recognized figures in Colombia's intellectual life are all against Uribe. Maybe they have something to say that haven't found an audience.

"DO SOMETHING. STAND UP AND BE COUNTED." I agree, but the assumption that we don't do or haven't done anything is unwarranted. I know for myself that I don't belong to that bag.

"I would be wary of trusting my welfare to "academics"! Their opinions can be very suspect."

Excuse me??? Suspect?? Of what?? Besides, no one is asking anybody to "trust your welfare" to anybody else. Next time you get a shot of peniciline, remember that it was a freaking academic that developed it for you.

"Amen! Aztec" Maybe soldiers are good at obeying orders and pulling triggers... but are they good are getting sarcasm?

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Sr Tertius says on Oct 20, 2005, 16:55:

Just another politician... "but name one politician that doesn't take credit for good things that happen on his watch. And conversely, one who doesn't try to deflect blame to his predecessor or the system for bad things."

I completely agree with you, Tinto. But I think this supports my implicit point, that Uribe, at best, is just another one in a long line of inept and corrupt politicians. Not that there aren't ANY good politicians in Colombia, it's just that Uribe isn't one. But, somehow, he convinced many people, with no evidence, that HE IS!

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Sr Tertius says on Oct 20, 2005, 19:02:

Where is the descent in homicides coming from? Found an interesting article, with numbers, online:

http://indh.pnud.org.co/boletin_hechos/index.plx?boletin=2;articulo=1;tema=1

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Oct 20, 2005, 19:49:

Sr. Tertius, Muy interesante el articulo. No vi las siguientes categorias:

Limpieza Social, Paseos, y Desapariciones para preservar valores promovidos por grupos como Sociedad, Familia y Tradicion. (contra los "inmorales" como ladrones, prostitutas, trasvestis, homosexuales y otra gente no conforme con los valores promovidos por los asesinos)

Homocidios por parte de grupos legales (Dijin, Fuerzas Armadas, B2, F2, DAS, etc.)

Very interesting article! I did not see the following categories:

Murders and disappearances committed by groups committed to religious values who for moral reasons eliminate those they consider "immoral" (gays, transvestites, petty thieves, prostitutes, etc.)

Disappearances of same for the same reasons by official groups (Dijin, Fuerzas Armadas, B2, F2, DAS, etc) and homocides by those groups for which they take credit and publicize as "bajas" (taking the life of insurgent Colombian citizens or taking the life of innocent Colombian citizens, who are labeled insurgents after the murder has been committed, in order to justify it)

Plátano X
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

aztec says on Oct 21, 2005, 04:48:

Sr Tertius... ...I usually skip over your drivel but happened to suffer through your last monologue.

Who are you and in what country are you living? May one assume you are an academic?

0 funny, 0 helpful.

pepster says on Oct 21, 2005, 09:44:

A Masochist Aztec,

Call me a masochist...I can't ignore self-righteous drivel.

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

0 funny, 0 helpful.

juancegomez says on Oct 21, 2005, 12:02:

"Very interesting article! I did not see the following categories"

Maybe because those are not the proper categories in standard academic speech, where a more global and structured analysis is needed, but rather more colloquial and/or political categories, which are often subject to an entirely different method of classification and interpretation?

In other words, that means that a different methodology that doesn't respond to the same interpretation exists. You seem to have a different methodology and interpretation in mind, but that's another matter.

From that point of view, the murders resulting from those categories, as far as they are reported as violent deaths for whatever reason, are already included inside the existing categories, along with the ones you don't mention from the other side of the coin (like when the FARC has executed common criminals and immoral individuals by taking justice in its own hands, and when it has killed guilty or innocent people, reporting them as paramilitaries and spies).

0 funny, 0 helpful.

tirofijo says on Oct 26, 2005, 18:45:

no excuses, uribistas hello forum. Great article. i agree there is much ignorance, but there is also much looking-the-other-wayisms. these people are in some sort of ignorant bliss if they can deny the para connexions or the narco past of uribe and his good paisa heritage.

narcos y nachos para siempre. Ingrid por los prisioneros!!!

narcos y nachos para siempre. Ingrid por los prisioneros!!!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

pepster says on Oct 27, 2005, 12:57:

tirofijo Nice name. Can't wait until the guy you named youself by is dead.

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

0 funny, 0 helpful.