If Ingrid dies, what will it happen?

robi666 says on Mar 30, 2008, 03:42:

Would Chavez still want the FARC be recognized as a political group?
What will Sarkozy say? Will he push for an armed solution? Will he quietly step back?
Will Uribe be blamed for it and by who? Chavez, Piedad? France?
A non-win situation for Uribe?
Will the peace process be abandoned or not?
Will the international community get harder with FARC and/or the Colombian government?

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

kalder says on Mar 30, 2008, 03:57:

As an aside- I hate it when people jeer at her. She may be an overly privileged naif, but I also think she's a lovely, well-intentioned woman who should only get our sympathy, not our scorn.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

robi666 says on Mar 30, 2008, 03:58:

My prevision.

Sarkozy: France did the best that it could, Colombia did not help enough, FARC is a terroristic group, we must not forget that there are other hostages. He will quietly step back on everything, like the proposal of hosting desmobilizados.

Chavez and Piedad: Uribe is to blame. We must work for the other hostages.

Uribe: FARC is a terroristic group. Still, the Colombian government confirm the peace proposal and the will to find a solution.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

Rubito says on Mar 30, 2008, 05:31:

I would dance on her grave. Or spit on it. Or both. No jeering. I fucking HATE her.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

Medellin Traveler says on Mar 30, 2008, 06:28:

Agree with Kalder, people like Rubito act all brave but they probably wouldn't be able to survive life in the jungle as long as she has.............. shouldn't he be taken' care of business, los famosos Aguilas Negros have set up shop in Bogota?

Medellin Es Una Chimba! - www.medellintraveler.com

buggy says on Mar 30, 2008, 06:42:

How can Rubito write things like that ?
He deserves only our deepest contempt.

"Artículo 20 de la Constitución Política. Se garantiza a toda persona la libertad de expresar y difundir su pensamiento y opiniones,...No habrá censura."

tejasmarcos says on Mar 30, 2008, 07:08:

the peace process for the colombian government is all about money now. there is ALOT of new mining and oil money (foreign) that wants to see those resource rich jungles out there in colombia land....

god is in your head

Medellin Traveler says on Mar 30, 2008, 07:19:

tejasmarcos,

Good, bad, or otherwise.... AGREE.

With peace, they can all get down to business.... MAKING MONEY!

Medellin Es Una Chimba! - www.medellintraveler.com

tejasmarcos says on Mar 30, 2008, 07:56:

capitalism always wins......

god is in your head

robi666 says on Mar 30, 2008, 08:27:

Rubi, I don't understand where this hate toward her is coming from.

You can hate the way other people use her, you can disagree with Sarkozy, her mother or everyone that shows clearly that she belongs to an elite.

But, she is not the one heading the show. Look at the descriptions of her captivity contained in RR's computer: she is a proud woman and free spirit. Who knows, if asked she would probably request to be release as the last one. That's the way real leaders act.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

droble77 says on Mar 30, 2008, 08:41:

LOL at Rubito's comments. Not sure why Ingrid attracts so much spite, but I don't live down there and am not obsessed with the politics. If FARC loses their most important and well known hostage, they won't have much to bargain with, so I'm pretty sure the "peace process" will be mostly scrapped, something that I suspect Uribe is hoping for. . . ;)

The pressure is on the FARC to negotiate something NOW with Ingrid as part of the collateral, but with the group possibly reeling from certain recent "events" ;) . . . she may very well die in the jungle.

If she does get out, she'll probably spend the rest of her days (which may not be much anyway at this point) in France. I seriously doubt she could have any kind of political or public career in Colombia at this point. Too much controversy and negative vibes surrounding her, and after such a lengthy ordeal, better to chill out in France with family for the few remaining years of her life.

Lcacique says on Mar 30, 2008, 08:50:

Ingrid was one of the few politicians in Colombia that condemned not only the terrorist groups (both left and right-wing) and drug cartels but also government corruption and the weakness of democracy. To this day she would be an extremely valuable person to have in the Colombian government as she is more interested in improving the country for everyone and less interested in stealing the countries wealth for the benefit of a few wealthy individuals at the top (not saying she would be interested).

tejas, same as it ever was...

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Rikito says on Mar 30, 2008, 09:03:

Rubito like Buggy/Cassini say the things they do because they are not literate enough to say anything requiring intelligence. I have met people like Rubito before...if he had an ounce of brains he could be arrested for smuggling crap. But free speech is free speech, even when it comes from a non-event like Rubito...who would be the first to break down and simple cry in his own urine at the feet of farc if anything like this happened to him.

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

Cerealkiller says on Mar 30, 2008, 09:05:

I hope she returns home soon and gets back to work. Her beliefs and experiences make her a very valuable politician for Colombia. I read that Pinchao said she still dreamed about becoming president of Colombia, and during the past 6 years she has been thinking out her political program.

Although I am not sure I'd vote for her (because I have not read the manifest) I do believe her contributions to democracy in Colombia can be priceless. She's already put a human face to the kidnapped, something unprecedented...because in Colombia people do not remember their own fucking victims... I'm sure she has experienced many other dramas which go largely unaddressed in political circles

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

ColombianoGringo says on Mar 30, 2008, 09:11:

A lot of people in Colombia are resentful that so much emphasis is placed on the "high value" hostages and Ingrid in particular. Many people also think that she brought this on herself by ignoring the many warnings not to go into the area where she was kidnapped. She apparently thought she was special and somehow immune to being kidnapped. Her political aspirations caused her to make a very stupid decision and it has cost her dearly. It doesn't mean that she deserved to be kidnapped, but she certainly could have avoided it, whereas most of the "lower-value" hostages could not.

I am not resentful of Ingrid, but I don't feel she or any other politicians should be given a higher priority than the policemen, soldiers, campesinos, etc that make up the rest pf the hostages. I think it is absolute BS that Sarkozy and everyone else are so worried about a bunch of politicians and some gringo mercenaries, while they apparently could give a shit about the other 700 "lower-value" hostages.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 30, 2008, 09:47:

I think the public opinion in Colombia has been heavy-handedly manipulated to hate Ingrid. I don't have a clue why.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Medellin Traveler says on Mar 30, 2008, 09:54:

ColombiaGringo,
Very well put.... such is life.

Medellin Es Una Chimba! - www.medellintraveler.com

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 30, 2008, 10:04:

yep, i agree with Colombianogringo, well put....

bamacellist says on Mar 30, 2008, 10:11:

"I think the public opinion in Colombia has been heavy-handedly manipulated to hate Ingrid. I don't have a clue why."

But, why do you say this? By whom and how have they done this? I have seen very little in the press to support your statement. Much effort has been spent attempting to use Ingrid's continued imprisonment to discredit Uribe, which has created some backlash because, of course, Uribe is a little bit popular and politics is just as shrill in Colombia as anywhere else. Comments such as "what about the other 700 hostages" are fair. I am one of those people who is upset at the strangeness of a certain handfull of hostages seemingly being more worthy of freedom than the rest, but that does not mean I have hostility towards any of those "special" hostages - just the people who seem to promote this attitude. I suspect this is the prevailing attitude amongst those who question the amount of attention afforded Ingrid.

"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 30, 2008, 10:12:

I'm with Robi,CerealKiller, Lcacique and MedellinTraveller on this issue. I also see that it's Colombians themselves that come down on her hardest; I have no idea why. I mean I understand what you guys are saying, but I don't think it justifies the scorn and hatred she has been receiving.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

jorgegdiaz says on Mar 30, 2008, 10:26:

If she´s fred and runs for president, NO ONE will be able to defeat her.

Man with hole in pocket feel cocky all day.

MitchAlvarez says on Mar 30, 2008, 10:41:

Me encanta ver como hablamos de la vida de un ser humano como si fuera un objeto sin valor alguno.

Ill stay out of this topic just for the sake of keeping this thread clean.

Hate Ingrid? What F%&$#??

Que pena de comptatriotas que hablan tanta pendejada. Logicamente yo quisiera que soltaran a todos por igual. La vida de una persona no es mas valiosa que ninguna otra. Pero si hay la oportunidad de liberar a una mujer que esta en graves condiciones porque estos hiijueputas de guerilla continuan con su mierda, hay que hacerlo imediatamente.

Enfoquemonos en el tema....la libertad de una persona que necesita attencion medica. Claro que hay muchos mas pero los perros terroristas obviamente no les importa la vida de esta gente.

Yo ya estoy cansado de hablar tanto de este tema.......... esos hp de la guerrilla hay que exterminarlos ya mismo. F%^& Them!!

Tengale miedo a una huelga de mujeres o a una escacez de aguardiente. :)

ColombianoGringo says on Mar 30, 2008, 10:49:

Verdad que cualquier comentario que no esta de acuerdo con lo que usted piensa es una pendejada.

Claro que hay que repudiar comentarios que expresan odio contra Ingrid o los otros secuestrados. Ese comentario de Rubito si fue una mamada.

Pero el hecho de que otros no esten de acuerdo con soltar 500 "hiijueputas de guerilla" por una solo secuestrada no quiere decir que sus opiniones sean pendejadas. Estamos hablando de soltar 500 matones, violadores, y secuestradores para que sigan delinquiendo. Usted debe aprender a discutir las cosas con mas comentarios sensatos y menos insultos abusivos.

Sam Salmon says on Mar 30, 2008, 10:53:

The attitude I got from Colombians was-'she dug herself a hole if it ends up being her grave so be it-there are many many more important issues in Colombia today'.

Remember life goes on no matter what, Betancourt always was a minor player and her passing matters most to her family and a few French politicians, it has no bearing on the larger picture.

' a la orden!'

goin_south says on Mar 30, 2008, 10:54:

I disagree, jorge... few would support her. didn't you read the higher posts? desi's comments about the Colombian scorn towards her?

What's so hard to understand, Desi? It's easy to understand. I think the colombian government has attempted to De-value Ingrid's life, for one, in an attempt to DeValue the same in the eyes of the Farc.

I think CG's point is put well.

IT IS THE FARC... who is in the squeeze, here.... if INGRID DIES... for them, it's a LOSE-LOSE SITUATION.

why can't the freakin Chung King Chinese just LEAVE THE FREAKN DOLLY LLAMA and Tibet ... ALONE!

goin_south says on Mar 30, 2008, 10:56:

I would think Farc would bring doctors and do everything they can to keep her alive.
Poor girl... but, I'm (only a little) like Rubito....
I will NEVAAAA! be able to understand what made her do that... man, someone must have put some crazy hex on the girl... to make her commit herself to such vulnerability, like she did...

why can't the freakin Chung King Chinese just LEAVE THE FREAKN DOLLY LLAMA and Tibet ... ALONE!

Lcacique says on Mar 30, 2008, 10:58:

CG: "She apparently thought she was special and somehow immune to being kidnapped."
I completely disagree, if you listen to comments on the news at the time, she was fully aware of the dangers; however, she wanted to express solidarity with the PEOPLE of San Vicente and she risked her life to do so. What is the difference between stupidity and courage? While it may not have been wise, I cannot fault her for staying true to her word. And you are right, it cost her.

I agree that everyone of the hostages is equally important and all should be released.

However, it should not be shocking that the "high profile" ones are those who get most of the attention in terms of negotiation possibilities. It is unfortunate. Nevertheless, if Jeb Bush went partying in Colombia, hanging out with Morphus, Elmo and a bunch of prepagos only to get snatched up by the FARC, I would not be surprised if the US government ignored all of the other hostages, forgetting its position with respect to negotiations with terrorists in order to secure the release of Jeb.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

goin_south says on Mar 30, 2008, 11:04:

Yer right, but I'd say likely, just as for ingrid, it would be 'LIGHTS OUT' for Jeb....

"she risked her life to do so."...and it was stupid, not courageous. at least in mho.

why can't the freakin Chung King Chinese just LEAVE THE FREAKN DOLLY LLAMA and Tibet ... ALONE!

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 30, 2008, 11:09:

The public opinion in Colombia can change just as easily. Right now I think she's seen as something that damages the National Hero Uribe's image internationally, but you guys are right, especially jorgediaz and robi. I also read what was said about her in Reyes' computer; "This lady behaves badly and will not co-operate". Even dying she has more dignity than most of the Colombian politicians I'm familiar with.

I can see two possible outcome if she doesn't die but makes it free and recovers from her illness:

1) She returns to France to live quietly with her family, writes a book, a movie is made, dedicates her life to her literary career and helping the victims of terrorism, kidnapping and displacement.

2) She stays in Colombia, picks up the politics and with that willpower, she will become a president if Colombia one day. You have to keep in mind that she's not that old yet (she's in her forties) and has politically many years ahead of her to pursue her dream.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

ColombianoGringo says on Mar 30, 2008, 11:09:

As I stated, I bear no ill will whatsoever towards her. I would love to see her get released immediately. The FARC should simply let her go without any prisoner exchange. If it is necessary for them to take her for medical attention, they need to just let her go.

Lcacique,
If she wasn't running for president, I can't imagine that she would have been out there expressing her solidarity. It was a calculated political decision on her part that had a terrible outcome for her. I do think she was somewhat misguided in ignoring the dangers, but she certainly did not deserve what has happened to her. There is nothing wrong with wanting to go and campaign for office. I can't presume to know if she would do it differently.

The one person that many Colombians are starting to feel open hostility towards is Luis Eladio Perez, but that's another thread and I'll let somebody else start it.

Medellin Traveler says on Mar 30, 2008, 11:11:

So if I travelled to Colombia and got myself kidnnapped it's my fault for travelling to Colombia the kidnapping capital of the world?

I'm going to Disneyland instead :O) Micky Mouse here I come!

Medellin Es Una Chimba! - www.medellintraveler.com

goin_south says on Mar 30, 2008, 11:23:

Desi... you have Raul's computer?

well... my point being... how do we really know what was in it?
and, the difference about what someone has told us was in it?

again, what is Ingrid's age? 38? or there about?

why can't the freakin Chung King Chinese just LEAVE THE FREAKN DOLLY LLAMA and Tibet ... ALONE!

goin_south says on Mar 30, 2008, 11:24:

If she eva gets out alive... which I doubt....
I'd say likely Desi's answer B;
she picks up with the politics again.

why can't the freakin Chung King Chinese just LEAVE THE FREAKN DOLLY LLAMA and Tibet ... ALONE!

goin_south says on Mar 30, 2008, 11:25:

quite obviously... she IS a very inherently strong individual.

why can't the freakin Chung King Chinese just LEAVE THE FREAKN DOLLY LLAMA and Tibet ... ALONE!

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 30, 2008, 11:28:

Duckie, the contents of his computer were widely published by the Colombian government. IThat's why all the speculation of the depleted uranium, the 300 million that was supposed to be contributed by Chavez etc.etc. There was a mention of Ingrid Betancourt there too, about how rude and uncoperative she was.

Her age, I don't know exactly, mid-forties, I'd guess.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

robi666 says on Mar 30, 2008, 11:28:

g_s, that's what was said to be about Ingrid in RR's computer. Mentiras?

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

Lcacique says on Mar 30, 2008, 11:57:

CG: I realize that you are not slamming her.

You may have a point, but throughout her political career she put herself in the line of fire (and it was an issue that I think she was genuinely concerned about) so I am not sure that her decision was solely motivated by her desire to become president.

She is 47 years old.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

bamacellist says on Mar 30, 2008, 12:43:

Attention on Ingrid and the hostages has done in this thread exactly what it has done in the real world. It has completely overshadowed the real question which is what about the PEACE. The hostage situation has not much to do with peace and Robi's question was about the peace process.

At this moment, France's interest in Ingrid has caused it to do something that has the potential of aiding actual peace in a hugely important way. In offering enticements and a safe future to members of the Farc, it has crafted an end-game solution which is viable. How many peace solutions de we see otherwise? If Ingrid dies, this will likely be lost.

"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."

bamacellist says on Mar 30, 2008, 12:50:

I should clarify that I am talking about the "hostage situation" in reference to the so-called humanitarian exchange that's been the main focus for so long... 40 some for 500 some. This has taken on a life of its own, completely outside the context of the greater conflict.

"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."

Simon says on Mar 30, 2008, 12:56:

I have no ill will towards Ingrid either, but I have to admit I can't stand her mother! She seems to think Uribe should concede just about anything the FARC desires for Ingrid to be liberated.

"The one person that many Colombians are starting to feel open hostility towards is Luis Eladio Perez, but that's another thread and I'll let somebody else start it."

You're right CG, that guy's also starting to get on my nerves!

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

MitchAlvarez says on Mar 30, 2008, 13:01:

Simon, es una madre en dolor y tristeza luchando por la libertad de su hija. Es muy facil tratar de analizar y dictar que debe o no debe hacer su madre.

Ponte en su situacion por un minuto y aun asi no podras entender el dolor o como reaccionarias.

Yo apoyo al mejor presidente de colombian en muchos años, Uribe. Pero entiendo que las familias de los secuestrados piensen un poco differente. Es natural.

Tengale miedo a una huelga de mujeres o a una escacez de aguardiente. :)

Simon says on Mar 30, 2008, 13:04:

Aunque yo tuviera un hijo secuestrado, yo no le pediría al gobierno que se arrodillara ante los narcoterroristas!

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

jorgegdiaz says on Mar 30, 2008, 13:05:

She´s too strong of an individual to retire. Also, she´s very polemic. I have no doubt that if she runs she will win.
May be yuo guys don´t know the story of former president and OEA secretary Cesar Gaviria. He was the campaign manager for the late Luis Carlos Galan, killed by Pablo Escobar. At his funeral, Galan´s son asked Gaviria (pretty much unknown at the time) to continue his political project. He won by a landslide. Former president Pastrana was kidnapped and won the ´98 election later.
My point? people in Colombia will sympahize with her in the blink of an eye the moment she announces she´s running.

Man with hole in pocket feel cocky all day.

MitchAlvarez says on Mar 30, 2008, 13:05:

ColombianoGringo:

Insultos abusivos? no me haga reir.

yo quiero mucho a mi pais y mi gente. si mis palabras se pasan es por amor y passion. cuando leo las barbaridades que esriben algunos no los menciono por nombre ni nada simplemente me da tristeza que algunos de estos sean disque colombianos.

una cosa es decir un commentario sobre una opinion y otra es tratar la vida de una persona como si no tuviera valor ninguno.

pero bueno....... dejemoslo mejor asi. es como los que apoyan la guerrilla.......que tristeza.

Tengale miedo a una huelga de mujeres o a una escacez de aguardiente. :)

ColombianoGringo says on Mar 30, 2008, 13:22:

Pues piense lo que quiera, pero a mi la verdadera barbaridad seria soltar a 500 animales matones de las farc para aterrorizar de nuevo al pueblo Colombiano.

Yo también valoro la vida, pero por parejo. Para mi no vale la vida de una persona famosa mas que la de un pobre campesino. Cuanto valen las vidas de los que sufrirán y hasta morirán a las manos de esos guerrilleros liberados? Seguramente no cree que van a portarse bien y que no volverán a delinquir. No me parecería justo que por salvar la vida de una persona, tengamos que poner en riesgo a miles de Colombianos que no tienen nada que ver con esta guerra.

Hay que buscar la liberación de Ingrid y el resto de los secuestrados, pero no a cualquier costo. La seguridad del pueblo Colombiano es mas importante que la vida de cualquier individuo. Si pensar así nos hace vernos como "dizque Colombianos" en su mente, pues allá usted. Entienda que todos no piensan como usted y que su opinión no es la única con validez.

Cerealkiller says on Mar 30, 2008, 13:28:

SO what wrong with Luis Eladio? I like the guy, he isnt hidden at home hoping to leave everything behind. The man is a fighter and a committed one at that, Im glad he is doing everything he is doing.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

goin_south says on Mar 30, 2008, 13:35:

jorgediaz..... upon thinking about it... you are probably right, about the changing mood of the Colombian people, should Ingrid be released alive.

okay then... what would the FARC think about Ingrid being president?
From what she use to preach, how would that affect them???

Desi......"widely published by the Colombian government" ... you mean, the one you and others don't like, nor particularly trust???

why can't the freakin Chung King Chinese just LEAVE THE FREAKN DOLLY LLAMA and Tibet ... ALONE!

ColombianoGringo says on Mar 30, 2008, 13:37:

While I disagree with his plan, I certainly respect the man for going to such lengths to do what he thinks is right.

However, a lot of people in Colombian don't like some of the things he has said recently about the farc. In particular, there has been some negative public reaction to his statements that the farc are looking for peace and that insisting that they should be granted belligerent status and be taken off the "terrorist list"?

Cerealkiller says on Mar 30, 2008, 13:51:

Well CG thats the thing, if someone even hints at the possibility of taking them off terrorist lists then thats it, they're automatically a FARC supporter and shouldn't be heard. I am not saying you are doing the same thing, but i do believe it is a dangerous thing. However, for negotiation purposes, there HAS to be some degree of symmetry between the parts. A negotiation between "terrorists" and governments is doomed from the very beginning because you are not recognizing the other as worthy of negotiating with (and even if they're not you know how it goes, "el que quiere marrones aguanta tirones"). If they are removed from those lists is not because they suddenly stopped being terrorists, its because it facilitates symmetry, and that is what Luis Eladio is referring to. Surely, putting them back on that list if they fuck up won't be that hard...unless of course is the government who decides to play dirty...

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Simon says on Mar 30, 2008, 13:58:

"Symmetry" between a legitimate, democratic government and a terrorist group that denied granting a cancer-ridden dying boy's last wish to see his kidnapped father, who placed a collar bomb around an innocent lady's neck which blew her entire head off, and that also blew up a church full of over one hundred civilians (including women and children) with propane cylinders? Are you kidding or what?

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 30, 2008, 14:01:

Duckie, I have no doubt about the authenticity of those documents. I'm sceptical about the fast and furious interpretation of them to suit a ready agenda by the Colombian government. There isn't much room for interpretation for that statement about Ingrid in those letters.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Cerealkiller says on Mar 30, 2008, 14:03:

No, Simon, I am not. I just look at the bigger picture, if removing them from the stupid list keeps more people from a fate as horrible as that then it doesn't seem like a crazy thing to do. You need to be able to abstract yourself from what has happened and start looking forward, what is going to be the best way to protect people? Dropping "smart" bombs and risking more casualties, or engaging in a serious process of conflict resolution, unlike that one in 1998? If there was ever a right time, is now...FARC are weak, fragmented and their bargaining power is not significant.

FYI, the collar bomb was not FARC.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Simon says on Mar 30, 2008, 14:29:

" I just look at the bigger picture, if removing them from the stupid list keeps more people from a fate as horrible as that then it doesn't seem like a crazy thing to do."

The Farc's inclusion on the terrorist list is not the reason why they consistenly ravage Colombians, but is a direct consequence of their horrendous actions. The terrorist list isn't "stupid", but the Farc are for getting themselves on it.

"You need to be able to abstract yourself from what has happened and start looking forward,"

Play 'forgive and forget' with the Farc and their past atrocities? That's an insult to the myriad vicitims they have left in their decades-long path of destruction.

The best way to deal with these sadistic murders is to seek them out and destroy them!

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

Lcacique says on Mar 30, 2008, 14:34:

Simon, how do you feel about the demobilization of the paras and their reintegration into society? How do you feel about them receiving more aid than the internally displaced (who were victims of the paras and the FARC)? Just curious if you have the same standard for all terrorists.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 30, 2008, 14:37:

They did HORRIBLE THING WHEN THEY WERE NOT IN THE TERRORIST LIST WHAT YOU THINK THAT ITS GOING TO CHANGE NOW IF WE MOVE THEM FROM THE LIST.

Nothing just the same as when they wanted the zona del despeje......


They had everything they wanted, even a free zone to negotiated and they didn't do peace, what is going to be different now? why they want all those matones out of jail to keep committing terrorist acts?...because I don't think they are going to turn into an angels now.... If they really want peace then is without conditions and if they really want peace then if Uribe leave all those matones out they must stop kidnapping and killing innocent people which I think it is going to be very hard for them to do. terrorist list or not this people won't do peace.


Ok Ingrid made a mistake of going into a no-go area but I think is in-human the way those criminals are treating her, she looks very bad, and i think they should let her go, enough is enough.

bamacellist says on Mar 30, 2008, 14:42:

I understand why someone would say the Farc's bargaining postion has weakened, but is it really true? The only thing they have to offer is to abandon violence as a political tool. Where is the evidence that the willingness to do this has increased? I'm curious; what do people think the government can legitimately offer them along the lines of pacification? What kind of policies and institutional changes can be legitimately made within the context of the current democracy? What are the guiding principles determining where to draw the lines?

"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."

Cerealkiller says on Mar 30, 2008, 14:42:

Simon: No, not play forgive and forget. I have always criticised this government for having done so with paramilitaries and certainly would never suggest that treatment for guerrilas, both organizations are equally inhumane. But contrary to the paramilitary charade, the FARC are weak and are in no position to ask for much as their vulnerability has been exposed to the world. If the government does not force them to sit down and negotiate then they would have missed a great chance.
I am surprised at the number of people who advocate a military victory. First of all because it proves that the culture of violence is not a myth, and second because any rational individual would know that military victories have never been successful in bringing a conflict to an end. Stats disproving that argument are available in ANY book on conflict resolution.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

goin_south says on Mar 30, 2008, 14:43:

I feel... the gentle wind... of the pbh doves .... out today.
BILLYB......?!?!!!!
....even the CKiller dove... damn ;-)

why can't the freakin Chung King Chinese just LEAVE THE FREAKN DOLLY LLAMA and Tibet ... ALONE!

Simon says on Mar 30, 2008, 14:49:

"Simon, how do you feel about the demobilization of the paras and their reintegration into society? How do you feel about them receiving more aid than the internally displaced (who were victims of the paras and the FARC)? Just curious if you have the same standard for all terrorists."

The paras did the right thing in demobilizing, now why can't the Farc do the same?

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 30, 2008, 14:50:

CK neither dialogs, how many presidents have been trying talks with the guerrillas and failed, what they did with the zona del despeje, make themselves more powerful and imposed laws, i think Colombian people is feed up with so much dialogs that now we are asking for military actions,

Now if you think they have been weaken then they should not be the position of demanding, why they want those criminals out? why if they want peace?


The farc have been weaken thanks to some military actions.

Lisa Zee says on Mar 30, 2008, 14:59:

No time to read all this, but: I LOVE INGRID, I ADMIRE HER, RESPECT HER, SHE IS A HEROIN!!!!!!!!

Have a heart, and compassion!. If she ever gets out alive, which I hope she does, she should go and spend the rest of her life, with her family, stay away from the media, and I truly hope she writes a book ( she is a wonderful writer) about her horrible experience.

Now, that is a movie I would love to see, her life with %$# at
FARC.

Simon says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:04:

"No time to read all this, but: I LOVE INGRID, I ADMIRE HER, RESPECT HER, SHE IS A HEROIN!!!!!!!!"

I don't dislike Ingrid, but what exactly is so "heroic" about getting yourself kidnapped like she did?

Now Fernando Araujo and John Frank Pinchao, those guys I would call 'heroic' because they actually escaped from the Farc, living off the land for days in the jungle before making it back to the world!

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

Cerealkiller says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:05:

Kat1, FARC hasnt needed to negotiate. Id say there have only been two times in history when the FARC have needed an agreement. In the 80's when they decided to remain marginal and give UP a chance (Im sure I dont have to explain why that didnt work), and now that they are internally divided and their people are demoralized.
I don't quite get who are you referring to when saying "the colombian people" and "we are asking"...

Asking to "get all those criminals out" is part of the bargaining process...they know that number will have to go down as negotiations move on...But ill just reply to that q with another q, if they didnt feel shit is going to hit the fan why would they free those 10 hostages unilaterally.

I never said they couldn't be weakened, but if you look at FARCs history, they have been weakened many times and have resurfaced time and time again.


Simon: So the paras are ok in demobilizing without paying for chopping people alive? You must be tripping. I should've known you were one of those "colombianos de bien", what a joke...

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Simon says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:11:

"Simon: So the paras are ok in demobilizing without paying for chopping people alive? You must be tripping. I should've known you were one of those "colombianos de bien", what a joke..."

The paras are serving up to eight years in jail, I wish it were more time, but it's better than nothing. And I'm not the one suggesting the evil, murderous Farc should be taken off the "stupid terrorist list" so we can all make nice!

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

bamacellist says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:13:

Was the surrender of Japan a military victory because it came at the end of a war or was it a negotiated solution because there were a whole lot of documents signed to officially proclaim the end of hostility and define the institutions of peace?

Let's face it, neither the current government NOR the Farc are ready to negotiate a settlement because: 1. Neither side believes the other is willing to accede to its interests to a satisfactory degree, and; 2. Neither side feels its continued existence and pursuit of it interests is sufficiently threatened by the other to voluntarily give up.

Until one of those conditions is met there's not going to be a useful and long-lived agreement. The use of military force does not need to be maintained until "every last one of them is dead" but is a legitimate tool.

"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."

Lcacique says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:14:

Simon: you seem to imply that the only way to deal with the FARC is to kill them all, yet you are alright with simply incorporating right-wing terrorists back into civilian society.

I know this will sound ridiculous, but I'd love to see them all imprisioned (FARC, paras) for varying amounts of time depending on their involvement in human rights violations and their psychological makeup. During this time they should be utilized as work crews building roads, housing, etc. Yes, this is obnoxiously silly, but it would be nice seeing both sides actually doing something of value for the country (even if they're forced to do so).

kat1: you make a lot of valid points...and I have my doubts about the viability of negotiations with the FARC as well (not only because they have not demonstrated that they are trustworthy, but also because I am not certain that the government is all that sincere either). Nevertheless, I also have serious doubts about a military solution. It has been a military fight since the FARC came into existence (and even before with the strike on Marquetalia). The zona del despeje strengthened the FARC to a certain extent, but they gained most of their political and economic power due to the US antidrug policy to dismantle the cartels. The FARC gained a huge source of revenue at that point.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Lisa Zee says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:16:

No Simon, I guess you didn`t read her books and know about her struggle for Colombia, she was daring and had the guts to go farther than any one would, if you don`t know her story BEFORE she got kidnapped, I guess you or anybody really know her.

Simon says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:19:

"Simon: you seem to imply that the only way to deal with the FARC is to kill them all, yet you are alright with simply incorporating right-wing terrorists back into civilian society."

I would also be alright with the Farc incorporating back into civilian society too and serving some time, but they would first have to release about 3,000 hostages, stop trafficking illegal narcotics, destroying Colombian towns, etc. But they don't wanna stop that.

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

Cerealkiller says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:23:

So what percentage of paras are in jail? 1%? 3%? I can tell you that out of the 20k who claimed to be paramilitaries not even 10% are in jail, if that is a good number for you then good stuff. I think its a freaking charade, didnt change much...Medellin, bogota and most major cities are now suffering the consequences of that "better than nothing" and its just the beginning.

On the other hand, I fail to see what is sooooo horrid about a negotiation, clearly it is you who wants to see blood running over the place, not me...

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Simon says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:25:

"On the other hand, I fail to see what is sooooo horrid about a negotiation, clearly it is you who wants to see blood running over the place, not me..."

Yes! And hopefully it will be Manuel Marulanda's and El Mono Jojoy's blood!!

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:27:

CK they would not released 10 hostage because then they will be in the shit.... they need to get hold of something to keep a little bit of power and they know that Ingrid and the 3 Americans are their "Ace cards" if they leave this hostages free then they will be in a real shit.

Farc have never been weaken as much as know specially that the whole world now know that we Colombians don't support them, before they used to hide on this imaginary saviors of the Colombian people and give the world the image that they were saving Colombia of corrupt politicians, capitalism ect... But know with all the thing that has happened in the past months they are feeling more vulnerable they are trying to keep strong front but I think deep down the government know they are going down just like Chavez :))

I think the government its being patient and trying to negotiated because of Ingrid and the pressure that have been put into it so they have to act carefully otherwise they will end up being the "big bad wolf"

buggy says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:30:

Simon, por que no te callas ?
The only thing you have big is the mouth.

"Artículo 20 de la Constitución Política. Se garantiza a toda persona la libertad de expresar y difundir su pensamiento y opiniones,...No habrá censura."

Simon says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:32:

I'll shut up when the Farc are destroyed!

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:32:

What I don't understand this has become like a competition between Paras and Farc, to me both are bad both have to be eliminated, but Remember Paras exists because of the Guerrillas

buggy says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:35:

But if the price to pay for that was to destroy the whole Colombia in the same time, this a****le of Simon would not hesitate and he would be the last colombian on earth ...

"Artículo 20 de la Constitución Política. Se garantiza a toda persona la libertad de expresar y difundir su pensamiento y opiniones,...No habrá censura."

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:38:

buggy i should not worry too much, soon all those criminal will head to France, good luck to all of you ;))))

buggy says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:40:

But there will remain more free criminals in your country, my dear. Even in your government ...

"Artículo 20 de la Constitución Política. Se garantiza a toda persona la libertad de expresar y difundir su pensamiento y opiniones,...No habrá censura."

Simon says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:41:

Hey Buggy, aren't you in France? You should be happy then that your 'comrades' are coming to join you!

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

buggy says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:42:

And you will join yours in the paracos cells.

"Artículo 20 de la Constitución Política. Se garantiza a toda persona la libertad de expresar y difundir su pensamiento y opiniones,...No habrá censura."

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:43:

But know we now where to send them hehehe.

buggy says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:44:

One thing that some people do not understand is that the FARCs have alredy several times said no to the expatriation of the guerilleros who are prisoners. So the interpretation of the "cambio" by Uribe-Santos-Restrepo is a mystification.

"Artículo 20 de la Constitución Política. Se garantiza a toda persona la libertad de expresar y difundir su pensamiento y opiniones,...No habrá censura."

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:46:

Ustedes Los Franceces no saben en la Vaca loca que se estan metiendo.... con acceptar todos esos criminales alla....

bonne chance

Instead of Air France it will be Air Farc

Simon says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:49:

Pero gracias a Dios los franceses se preocupan por su gente, tanto que hasta le darian albergue y vida nueva a nuestros mas crueles criminales ,cosa que jamas le ofrecerían a nuestros mas preparados ciudadanos o al equipo de futból infantil a quienes le negaron la visa para entrar a Francia hace unas semanas!

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

buggy says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:49:

Jajaja colombiana broma ?
Very bad indeed.

Happily France will not accept the thousands of paracos and the millions of furibists.

"Artículo 20 de la Constitución Política. Se garantiza a toda persona la libertad de expresar y difundir su pensamiento y opiniones,...No habrá censura."

Lcacique says on Mar 30, 2008, 15:55:

kat1: depends on your definiton of paras and which group you are talking about. What about the pájaros and the contrachusmas from the forties?

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

buggy says on Mar 30, 2008, 16:00:

Concerning the kids and the visa for France, are you sure all papers were OK? Each day Colombians go to France without problem.

Do you know, simon, that these boys intended to go to a leftist town (Montreuil is in the "red" suburb of Paris)? Manizales boys amongst the communists ? They could be afraid that Santos sends his bombs to free them !

"Artículo 20 de la Constitución Política. Se garantiza a toda persona la libertad de expresar y difundir su pensamiento y opiniones,...No habrá censura."

Medellin Traveler says on Mar 30, 2008, 16:00:

The whole terrorists list is a joke!

Every "great nation" deems certain people terrorist, all the while killing thousands of innocent people they deem terrorist, for one reason or another.

I think it's all a *^%$ joke!

Medellin Es Una Chimba! - www.medellintraveler.com

bamacellist says on Mar 30, 2008, 16:16:

"One thing that some people do not understand is that the FARCs have alredy several times said no to the expatriation of the guerilleros who are prisoners. So the interpretation of the "cambio" by Uribe-Santos-Restrepo is a mystification."

So, what is your positive suggestion?

"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."

Lisa Zee says on Mar 30, 2008, 17:02:

kat how about : "Farc Air" LOL

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 30, 2008, 19:49:

There's really no debate.

If the FARC are really concerned for Ingrid's health, let her go.

Punto.

The rest is all bullshit posturing and blaming other people.

jorgegdiaz says on Mar 30, 2008, 19:50:

May be when those beasts start doing in Europe the same they did in Locombia, romantic European leftist will see. It´s SO damn easy to paly devil´s advocate (so to speak). hmmm may be that´s why our pal Cassini wants to move to Pereira, to be away from FARC !!

Man with hole in pocket feel cocky all day.

miamimike says on Mar 30, 2008, 19:51:

However, it should not be shocking that the "high profile" ones are those who get most of the attention in terms of negotiation possibilities. It is unfortunate. Nevertheless, if Jeb Bush went partying in Colombia, hanging out with Morphus, Elmo and a bunch of prepagos only to get snatched up by the FARC, I would not be surprised if the US government ignored all of the other hostages, forgetting its position with respect to negotiations with terrorists in order to secure the release of Jeb.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Lot of us Floridians would be quite content if the FARC kept Jeb Bush for a "Extended Vacation" LOL Thank God he isn't governor here anymore and his name is hardly mentioned. Jeb is physically soft as a Punkin as he never did a hard day's work in his life but those long treks
the Farc are famous for would knock of some of his Lard Gut off and lean him down some! I'd love to see Jeb on a Long hard Slog in the Hot Colombian Jungle swatting Mosquitos!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ingrid-I think she will become, if she is ever freed alive, Colombia's Binazir Bhutto! She, Ingrid, is definetely a survivor and now, a national Icon like Bhutto!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." GW Bush

MitchAlvarez says on Mar 30, 2008, 21:38:

The only policy i believe in is in the complete extermination of all members of las Farc.

Que maten a todos esos perros hp.

Tengale miedo a una huelga de mujeres o a una escacez de aguardiente. :)

Simon says on Mar 30, 2008, 21:48:

"The only policy i believe in is in the complete extermination of all members of las Farc."

Hell yeah!!! Exterminate those fokers!

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

ColombianoGringo says on Mar 30, 2008, 22:12:

En eso estamos todos de acuerdo. Yo siempre he dicho que Colombia necesita pena de muerte para ciertos crímenes de rebelión y terrorismo. Por mi, que cuelguen a todos los oficiales de las farc y de los paras en la Plaza de Bolívar. Que empiecen con el "secretariado" de esa manada de malparidos.

Simon says on Mar 30, 2008, 22:26:

Que los cuelguen apenas? Damn, how I'd love to see each of their limbs tied to a horse!

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

robi666 says on Mar 31, 2008, 07:08:

Desi "I also read what was said about her in Reyes' computer; "This lady behaves badly and will not co-operate"."

More info on her attitude today on Caracol.

Ingrid Betancourt se niega a comer y recibir medicinas

Fuente: Caracol 03/31/2008 - 08:55:00

Del enviado especial Alejandro Villegas

Una fuente de San José del Guaviare aseguró a Caracol Radio que la ex candidata presidencial Ingrid Betancourt está viva pero que se resiste a consumir los medicamentos y los alimentos que le ofrecen los integrantes de las FARC que se encargan de su custodia y que permanece amarrada porque intentó arrojarse a un río.

La misma fuente sostuvo que Betancourt requiere con urgencia una transfusión de sangre y coincide con otras fuentes que aseguran que la ex candidata padece leishmaniasis, hepatitis B y desnutrición severa, pero que además está sumida en una profunda depresión.

La ex candidata presidencial está en delicado estado de salud, padece de diarrea y vómito, señaló una persona consultada por Caracol Radio y que hace 10 días tuvo contacto con miembros de las FARC en el departamento del Guaviare.

http://www.caracol.com.co/noticias/570251.asp

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 31, 2008, 09:34:

What scumbags they must be to continue "detaining" someone in that condition.

Of course, I think we knew that.

ColombianoGringo says on Mar 31, 2008, 09:36:

All the more reason to not release 500 of these scumbags in return for one or even 39 hostages.

jorgegdiaz says on Mar 31, 2008, 13:33:

This appeared today in SEMANA:

http://www.semana.com/wf_InfoArticulo.aspx?idArt=110563


Se apaga Ingrid
SEMANA habló con todos los que estuvieron con �ngrid en la selva e hizo un retrato de los desgarradores detalles de su calvario. Fecha: 03/29/2008 -1352

Cuando apenas llevaba un día y medio en poder de los guerrilleros, �ngrid Betancourt ya estaba pensando cómo iba a escaparse del secuestro. El primer intento lo hizo 40 días después: se lanzó a la jungla, estuvo cuatro días -con Clara Rojas- tratando de descifrar sus misterios y en una noche de aquellas tan oscuras en las que no sirve de nada abrir los ojos, casi pierden la vida. Pero el fracaso no la amilanó. Por el contrario, y con la misma tenacidad que el país le reconoce, convencida como es de que puede cambiar las cosas, volvió a intentarlo tres veces más.

Esa firmeza y esa convicción son elocuentes porque más allá de demostrar la obstinación de esta bogotana de 46 años, deja en evidencia una de esas crueles paradojas de la vida: ninguno de los otros políticos secuestrados con ella hizo tantos esfuerzos para librarse del cautiverio y, ahora, mientras muchos de ellos gozan la libertad, la vida de �ngrid parece estar apagándose, secuestrada, en algún rincón inhóspito de la interminable selva amazónica.

En esta semana se han disparado, como nunca antes en los seis años y 36 días que la ex candidata presidencial lleva en poder de las Farc, las alarmas sobre el desenlace de su vida. El domingo, el Diario del Huila (en la zona de influencia de la guerrilla) abrió su primera página con la noticia de que la ex candidata estaría muerta. Decía que "habría fallecido en un centro asistencial de San Vicente del Caguán o San José de la Fragua" en Caquetá, límites con Putumayo, por una hepatitis C.

¿Otro espejismo?
La diferencia entre el rostro de �ngrid Betancourt de la segunda prueba de vida (del 30 de agosto de 2003) y la tercera (del 24 de octubre de 2007) es evidente. En la primera prueba de vida, grabada el 15 de mayo de 2002 y difundida el 23 de julio, la amistad de Ingrid y Clara Rojas ya había sido devorada por la selva. Jhon F. Pinchao estaba planillado para ir en la fuga, fracasada, de �ngrid y Luis Eladio. Y estos dos últimos debían también ir en la escapada que llevó al En uno de sus dos comas diabéticos, Luis Eladio Pérez perdió la memoria. �ngrid se dedicó a hacerle una terapia, día por día, hasta que la recuperó. Marc Gonçalves, uno de los tres gringos secuestrados, le pidió al ‘mono Jojoy’ en una carta que le permitiera volver al campamento de íngrid. A él lo separaron de la ex candidata el 7 de agosto pasado. Yolanda Pulecio con los hijos de �ngrid (Melanie y Lorenzo) en el sepelio de Gabriel Betancourt. �ngrid dice que ha llorado la muerte de su padre, cada día, durante cuatro años en su cautiverio.
PUBLICIDAD
El lunes, cuando el mismo diario rectificó su noticia, ya el rumor se había regado por el mapa. El miércoles, el defensor del pueblo, Vólmar Pérez, se encargó de encender las alarmas en Bogotá, dijo que el estado de salud de �ngrid era crítico. Y cerró con una frase dramática: "Alguien me dijo que sus características físicas no distan mucho de las de los niños de Somalia".

La incertidumbre por la suerte de �ngrid aumentó cuando el gobierno decidió de manera intempestiva -jueves a las 10:30 de la noche- ofrecerles a las Farc liberar de inmediato guerrilleros encarcelados por crímenes atroces a cambio de todos los secuestrados. Y el comisionado Luis Carlos Restrepo fue explícito en decir que se trataba de una salida urgente para �ngrid: "El Gobierno se ha unido al clamor nacional e internacional para que la vida de la doctora �ngrid Betancourt sea salvada".

El jueves en la tarde, el padre Manuel Mancera, párroco del corregimiento La Libertad, de San José del Guaviare, le dijo a SEMANA que, según le dicen los campesinos de la zona, �ngrid está viva. "La vieron el domingo pasado por los lados del Retorno. La vieron sumamente deprimida. Como que no quiere comer, como que está cansada, como que está agotada", explicó el sacerdote.

Y confirmó que médicos del puesto de salud de El Capricho -corregimiento en el que se encontraba en el momento de la entrevista- la atendieron hace cerca de un mes. "Está muy deprimida. Tiene el mal de la selva", le dijo otra fuente de la zona a esta revista.

Lo que ha sido la vida de �ngrid Betancourt en cautiverio había sido para el país y el mundo un completo misterio hasta el año pasado. Apenas si se conocieron dos pruebas de vida. Ahora, cuando ya están libres siete de los que compartieron el cautiverio con ella, y está detenido 'Martín Sombra', su 'carcelero' durante un año, SEMANA habló con la mayoría de ellos para hacer un retrato del calvario que ha padecido y la increíble fuerza moral que ha demostrado la ex candidata durante esta tragedia.

�ngrid empezó a hablar de la fuga un día después de que un grupo de guerrilleros armados le bloqueó el camino a San Vicente del Caguán y se la llevó, con la directora programática de su campaña presidencial, Clara Rojas, al espeso follaje de la selva. El 24 de febrero, cuando aún estaban aturdidas por lo ocurrido el día anterior, los guerrilleros les ofrecieron un tablero de ajedrez para distraer el tiempo. �ngrid no sabía jugar, pero aceptó la oferta con la idea de que así podía charlar, sin despertar sospechas, sobre cómo emprenderían la fuga.

Se volaron a finales de marzo, es decir, por estos días hace seis años. A �ngrid se le ocurrió dejar las botas de caucho en el campamento para que los guerrilleros creyeran que ellas seguían allí (la misma táctica que aplicó otras veces), correr hasta encontrar el río y luego guiarse por su cauce. Pero no imaginaron que la naturaleza podía ser tan cruel. De noche no veían absolutamente nada, tenían que estar unidas por un lazo para no perderse, no tenían nada para comer, y en medio de la fatiga no se dieron cuenta cuándo ni en dónde se durmieron. De pronto, se despertaron con el agua al cuello. No veían nada. No sabían qué había pasado. Y el agua seguía subiendo. Clara pensó que iban a morir ahogadas. Movida por el instinto, �ngrid dio unos pasos y encontró la salida a tierra firme.

Estaban perdidas, no tenían cómo ubicarse, las copas de los árboles se entretejían como un techo y no dejaban filtrar los rayos del sol. Cuando encontraron el río, en una de las salidas de la maraña para asegurar que seguían cerca de él, los guerrilleros las ubicaron.

Pero trató, con Clara, de fugarse dos veces más. Y aunque en una ocasión alcanzaron a estar dos días en libertad, ya el ímpetu no era el mismo de la primera vez y por uno u otro motivo terminaban de regreso en el campamento con el arrojo de �ngrid desgastado.

Hizo el último intento de fuga con Luis Eladio Pérez. Ella esperó con paciencia, seis meses, a que él se recuperara de una leishmaniasis; diseñó el plan, recogió la comida y lo despertó con pellizcos la noche de la huida. Todo iba relativamente bien: estaban en el río y avanzaban de noche. Pero al sexto día se dio cuenta de que el frío hacía mella en un Luis Eladio aún convaleciente. Decidió sacrificar su sueño de libertad y se entregaron a una lancha repleta de guerrilleros.

Hoy, lo más triste es que el anhelo de �ngrid se convirtió para ella en su peor castigo. Si las otras fugas habían mortificado a los guerrilleros, esta última los sacó de casillas. Cuando llegaron, los separaron de los demás y les pusieron cadenas en el cuello. Ella se rebeló con la fuerza que le quedaba en el cuerpo para evitar que le pusieran esa cadena y los guerrilleros la golpearon hasta dominarla. Varios de los secuestrados dicen que ese fue el momento en que vieron más furiosa a �ngrid.

Por su carácter de no dejarse doblegar, la ex senadora no había sido santo de devoción de los guerrilleros. "Se la tenían montada", dicen sus compañeros. Durante una larga travesía en octubre de 2004, cuando tuvieron que cargarla en hamaca por su hepatitis, la trataban sin ninguna consideración: en los recovecos del camino no importaba si se golpeaba contra los árboles; cuando tenían que descansar, no importaba dejarla tirada en el piso y para que les pesara menos su morral, le iban botando verdaderos tesoros, como el jean que le había dado su hija Mélanie en la Navidad de 2001.

Pero es en ese entonces, tras su último escape fallido, cuando comenzó su verdadero calvario. Y la fuga del policía John Frank Pinchao el 11 de abril de 2007 -con el cual iban a volarse también �ngrid y Luis Eladio (ver entrevista con María Isabel Rueda)- rebosó la copa de las Farc.

El castigo vino en agosto de 2007: separaron a �ngrid de sus mejores amigos, Luis Eladio y el gringo Marc Gonçalves. Y la dejaron con el grupo de ocho policías y militares. "Me separaron de las personas con las cuales me entendía, con las cuales tenía afinidad y afecto, y me pusieron en un grupo humano muy difícil", le contó la propia �ngrid a su mamá en la última de las tres pruebas de vida que las Farc han enviado de ella, la del 24 de octubre pasado.

Los políticos hoy liberados prefieren no hablar mucho en público de lo que puede estar pasando. Pero el propio Luis Eladio contó a esta revista la noche en que fue liberado: "Yo la veía tan sola y tan desprotegida, que terminé defendiéndola y dándome trompadas con el uno y con el otro, eso era una locura". Y esta semana precisó que se trata de "uno o dos" que intentaron sobrepasarse con ella.

Se podría decir que �ngrid ha vivido tres etapas en su cautiverio. La primera, desde el 23 de febrero de 2002, cuando fue secuestrada, hasta el 23 de agosto de 2003, cuando estuvo con Clara Rojas: y lo que había sido una amistad de más de 10 años quedó enterrado en la selva. �ngrid estaba muy triste por la muerte de su padre y les tocó una convivencia muy difícil, atadas por la misma cadena durante un mes, como castigo por la fuga. Yolanda Pulecio, la mamá de �ngrid, dijo hace dos semanas: "Ella (Clara) se portó mal con �ngrid. La vi, y también al niño. Y me alegré mucho de que estén bien. Pero he sabido cosas que me han dolido mucho".

La segunda etapa, entre octubre de 2003 y agosto de 2007. El primer año estuvo con todo el grupo de políticos (además del de policías y militares) y después, casi tres años con Pinchao, los tres gringos, Luis Eladio y un grupo de ocho militares y policías. Como si fuera un reality, se armaron combos, e �ngrid encontró allí a sus tres grandes amigos (Luis Eladio, Pinchao y Gonçalves) que, como ella misma sugiere en la carta a su mamá, se hicieron importantes en su vida.

Y la tercera etapa, desde entonces hasta ahora, ya casi siete meses, en la cual está prácticamente sola. La situación ha sido tan dramática, o por lo menos eso dicen los mensajes que se han filtrado desde la selva, que los familiares de los militares mandan mensajes por radio pidiéndoles que la cuiden. En las últimas pruebas de vida de militares, que pasaron a un segundo plano en medio de la noticia de la muerte de 'Raúl Reyes', el mayor Édgar Duarte mandó un mensaje para �ngrid: "Le pido al capitán Armando Castellanos que la apoye mucho. Así como cuando usted trabajó conmigo tiene que ser con ella. Tiene que ser la niña bonita. La consentida de la casa".

Hasta entonces. Hasta ese agosto, lo más triste para �ngrid había sido la muerte de su papá. Como ella lo cuenta en su carta, el dolor no la ha desamparado: "...estar con mi papito, cuyo duelo no termino de hacer porque todos los días desde hace cuatro años lloro su muerte".

Se enteró de su fallecimiento por un periódico que cayó de casualidad en sus manos. Estaba encadenada, en el mes de castigo, y en una página cualquiera vio la foto de su papá cuando recibía en la clínica la visita de un sacerdote y en el pie de foto explicaban que la imagen era momentos antes de la muerte del ex ministro de Educación y fundador del Icetex.

�ngrid no sólo lloró inconsolablemente. Dejó de comer durante nueve días. Y se dejó durante un año una camiseta negra en señal de duelo. Gabriel Betancourt murió el 23 de marzo, tal vez el mismo día en que ella emprendió su primera fuga. Mucho tiempo después volvió a llorar sin consuelo por su papá, cuando Luis Eladio la enteró de las circunstancias en que murió: llamando desde la clínica a su familia, implorando por su liberación.

Pero ese dolor no puede ser peor que el que está ahora sufriendo. En su carta del 24 de octubre ya daba muestras de la depresión en que se encontraba entonces y seguramente ahora. "Estoy mal físicamente. No he vuelto a comer. El apetito se me bloqueó. El pelo se me cae en grandes cantidades. No tengo ganas de nada. Y creo que esto último es lo único que está bien: no tener ganas de nada".

"Estoy mamita cansada, cansada de sufrir, he sido o tratado de ser fuerte. Estos casi seis años de cautiverio me han demostrado que no soy ni tan resistente, ni tan valiente ni tan inteligente ni tan fuerte como yo creía. He dado muchas batallas, he tratado de escaparme en varias oportunidades, he intentando mantener la esperanza (...) Pero mamita, ya me doy por vencida".

Y le cuenta también que ya ni siquiera tiene aliento para nadar en el río y que dejó de hacer los ejercicios que, sin falta, hacía todos los días entre dos y tres horas en un 'step' que había construido para subir y bajar.

La fotografía que llegó desde la selva dio la vuelta al mundo. Se convirtió en un símbolo del drama de los secuestrados: su posición, su extrema delgadez y el largo del cabello. Tanto, que sumada a su carta y a las de los demás secuestrados, se convirtió en un aliciente más para la histórica marcha del pasado 4 de febrero contra las Farc.

Desde entonces, cuando ella ya parecía estar al borde del abismo, han pasado cinco meses. La esperanza de todos es que su espíritu rebelde no se apague. Ese talante de humanidad, integridad y valentía que siempre la ha acompañado y que la hizo ganarse muchos amores y odios cuando dio la batalla política en el Congreso para que el proceso 8.000 no quedara en la impunidad, es hoy su mejor aliado. El mismo que durante su cautiverio la hizo dar peleas, como cuando pidió que les quitaran las cadenas -y lo hicieron-; o cuando le reclamó a su cuidandero, 'Martín Sombra', que por qué conversaba con los gringos, que si acaso ellos no eran sus enemigos imperialistas; o cuando, en las últimas pruebas de vida, en un gesto de dignidad y de resistencia civil, no quiso hablar como los guerrilleros le pedían.

'Sombra' recuerda: "�ngrid es una persona educada pero si tiene que decirle a usted que es un hijueputa, le dice. Un güevón una vez le hizo una cagada. Le botó unos papeles que ella tenía del diario de ella. Ella me dijo: 'vea, 'Sombra', a ese hijueputa de 'Guillermo' yo no le puedo hablar. Me botó el diario'".

En una carta del pasado 28 de febrero, hallada en el computador de 'Raúl Reyes', el propio jefe guerrillero les decía a los del secretariado: "Hasta donde conozco, esta señora es de temperamento volcánico, es grosera y provocadora con los guerrilleros encargados de cuidarla".

Ni por un momento, mientras estuvo con los hoy liberados, dejó a un lado su interés por la política. "Me decía que aún quería ser presidente de Colombia", escribió Pinchao en su libro. Hablaba de ir a Harvard o a Oxford a estudiar algo de economía para prepararse mejor. Y diseñó un programa de gobierno de 190 puntos, el cual no sólo discutió todas las tardes durante dos años con Luis Eladio después de la clase de francés, sino que se lo contó a Pinchao y lo dejó encantado.

Además de lo tradicional -educación gratuita y una Colombia mejor y más participativa-, en su programa tiene la idea de construir un tren de gran velocidad (como los TVG de Europa) para unir el sur con el norte del país, una ciudad en el Magdalena Medio al estilo Brasilia para todos los desplazados, y el metro para Bogotá.

Y entre ellos hacían debates sobre los temas nacionales. Luis Eladio dice que era como un 'Hora 20', de Caracol. Y Pinchao es más preciso: "La noticia del día �ngrid cogía y decía, bueno esto ¿por qué pasó? Y luego ¿esto qué consecuencias tiene? Y discutíamos un rato. Y por la noche cuando oíamos 'Hora 20' nos dábamos cuenta de que repetían lo mismo que nosotros habíamos dicho".

El resto del tiempo lo dedicaba a escribir. Además del diario que le botó un guerrillero, tal vez el primero, ella le contó a su mamá que ha escrito y quemado por lo menos otros cuatro.

Las dos columnas que sostienen a �ngrid son su familia y la fe. Todos recuerdan las muy particulares celebraciones que ella hacía en el cumpleaños de cada uno de sus hijos. Pedía permiso para hornear una torta; cuando no lo lograba, cualquier arepa o arroz le servía de excusa para cantar el Happy Birthday. A todo pulmón en media selva.

En los primeros meses del secuestro leyó la Biblia completa (en los últimos tres años pidió a la guerrilla un diccionario enciclopédico para aprender, pero nunca se lo dieron). Una de sus partes predilectas es el sermón de la montaña: el mismo que inspiró a Mahatma Gandhi.

"Viendo la multitud, subió al monte; y sentándose, vinieron a él sus discípulos. Y abriendo su boca les enseñaba, diciendo: (...)Bienaventurados los que lloran, porque ellos recibirán consolación. Bienaventurados los que tienen hambre y sed de justicia, porque ellos serán saciados. Bienaventurados los misericordiosos, porque ellos alcanzarán misericordia. Bienaventurados los que padecen persecución por causa de la justicia, porque de ellos es el reino de los cielos".

Jorge Eduardo Géchem les contó entre lágrimas a sus hijos, la noche de su liberación, que en sus crisis �ngrid se levantaba en las noches y encendía una vela para fijarse si seguía respirando. Consuelo González recuerda que hubo momentos en los que ella le tomaba la cabeza y le daba ánimo. Y su entrega se hizo evidente en uno de los dos comas diabéticos que padeció Luis Eladio Pérez. En el más fuerte, él perdió la memoria, e �ngrid, con su constancia de siempre, día a día le hizo terapia para recuperarlo. "¿Qué cocinaba tu mamá en Navidad?", le preguntaba. Y él no atinaba. Hasta que de tanto insistirle, un día él recordó los deliciosos tamales que hacía su madre. Estaba curado.

�ngrid Betancourt ha creado, con la universalidad de su lucha y la dignidad de su comportamiento, un símbolo de resistencia contra la barbarie. Desde su estado de indefensión, pero con poder infinito de encarnar 3.000 años de lucha del ser humano contra la inhumanidad, la voz de �ngrid es un grito desesperado por la libertad, la igualdad y la fraternidad, el mismo grito que 200 años atrás inspiró la Revolución francesa, y que hoy la inspira a ella a no rendirse y seguir luchando.

Y así le dijo �ngrid a Francia en su carta: "Durante muchos años he pensado que mientras esté viva, mientras siga respirando, tengo que seguir albergando la esperanza. Ya no tengo las mismas fuerzas, ya me cuesta mucho trabajo seguir creyendo, pero quiero que sientan que lo que han hecho por nosotros ha hecho la diferencia. Nos hemos sentido seres humanos. Gracias".

Man with hole in pocket feel cocky all day.

Lisa Zee says on Mar 31, 2008, 15:47:

This is amazing! WOW, now this reinforce what I have been saying about her. WOW! WOW!, what a woman!!!!!!