Human Rights Watch Condemns FARC

Hunter says on Apr 16, 2005, 22:25:

Gas Cylinder Bombs How long have they been using these?

Hunter

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 16, 2005, 22:39:

Toribío There is no excuse, from either side of the conflict, to attack civilians. The FARC has argued before that they aim their cylinders towards police stations, but that there is "unavoidable collateral damage"... right... avoidable or not, "collateral damage" is unarmed men, women and children, and it is an act of cowardice to attack them, in Colombia and anywhere else.

There should be a strong commitment, from both sides of the conflict, to leave civilians out of it. Negotiating the banning of unconventional weapons that can potentially generate "collateral damage" would be one important step in the right direction. But I doubt that the current jingoistic mood will allow for that.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 17, 2005, 16:18:

Wow, I bet the FARC leaders are really worried now. A condemnation by Human Rights Watch! Maybe the NGOs can get together and raise money for the FARC so they can fire more accurate missiles than gas cylinders. It's about what I would expect.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on Apr 17, 2005, 16:31:

This hurts the FARC politically? FARC wants to be a "political" organization. They have lobbyists in different countries and they want people in Europe and elsewhere to support them. This kind of condemnation by HRW hurts FARC politically. They probably aren't trembling with fear, but they probably aren't jumping for joy either. This is not good news for them and I commend HRW for criticizing such abhorrent practices as the cylinder bombs.

Plátano X

plátano

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 17, 2005, 18:50:

Platano is right Legitimacy and recognition as a belligerent force are extremely important for the FARC. This is why they agreed to comply with International Humanitarian Law. Recognition as a BF has been requested by the FARC as a pre-condition to any negotiation (a pre-condition, needless to say, unaccepted by the current administration: remember, there is no internal conflict). In this sense, I must admit that the Pastrana administration made some advances: it negotiated that recognition in exchange of not using some unconventional weapons. Now we are back to square one, with no sight of an end to the conflict.

The reaction of the FARC is going to be critical to an eventual negotiation (disclaimer: if you still fantasize with a military defeat of the FARC, stop reading here): My guess is that there are two possibilities, they either recognize it as a mistake and make a pseudo-trial of the column's commander, or declare themselves not bound by IHL, probably claiming that the government doesn't recognize them as a BF and is playing dirty. Despite the theatrics, the first scenario would be much better than the second: if there is full front confrontation, the ones losing are those that don't hold guns.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 17, 2005, 19:59:

Slamming the wrong people Letter from HRW to FARC regarding Bojayá:

http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/05/colombia0508.pdf

FARC's communiqué on Bojayá

http://six.swix.ch/farcep/Comunicados/2002/may0802.html

Like in Bojayá, the first to blame is the FARC: that's not disputable. But, remind me, who has the Constitutional responsibility of protecting the life and property of civilians? HRW? Tinto: you're slamming the wrong people.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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platano says on Apr 17, 2005, 21:43:

Tinto, now you are playing my game! :=0 I have been trying to say that using military force for the last forty years "has not made a difference." As I demonstrated rotundly for Mr. Hollywood the numbers of FARC militants have increased from 27 to 11,000 to 17,000. The numbers have consistently gone up over the decades.

To answer your question why anyone thinks FARC is going to respect Treaty X or Treaty Y there are two possibilities. Have you considered the possibility that they are tired of fighting and that they might someday want to stop fighting or even that they might want peace?

No? I didn't think you would. :)

Then the other alternative is that they truly believe the State cannot defeat them but that they CAN defeat the State. And when someone is in a position of power they don't go begging for a ceasefire or a treaty. They continue with the successful strategy that has taken them from 27 to 11,000 to 17,000 and growing.

And the State use of military force "has not made a difference" if that's the criteria you want to apply to evaluate the effectiveness of the HRW letters, letters which did not just appear yesterday as Sr. Tertius pointed out. I am amazed at the amount of distrust expressed toward human rights and NGOs and Amnesty. Must be because they criticize both sides and some people don't like to have their government criticized.

Plátano X,
Defensor de la libertad de la locomoción en Colombia (Constitución de 1991) ¡Libertad por Ingrid Betancourt y los demás secuestrados!
DISCLAIMER: I am not objective. I am madly in love with Colombia (and a bit mad, too!)

plátano

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 17, 2005, 22:08:

Tinto I'm sorry if I misread your previous post, but in the context of recent criticisms to HR organizations it is difficult to read your post as an innocent question.

"It would appear that three or four years of writing letters has not made a difference."

Letters, marches, and any peaceful demonstration of support or condemnation are futile without appropriate government action. Despite all the demonstrations that recognition as a belligerent force is a major carrot for the FARC, the government refuses to use it, and rather hits everyone (FARC or no FARC) with the stick of war.

The FARC justify many of their abuses by claiming that they are not a regular army but "people at arms" (a concept not unknown to US history, since it was used by the revolutionary army that fought for independence, eventually developing into the 2nd amendment). Minors will continue to be drafted, and civilian-military distinctions will continue to be blurred, but that doesn't mean that lessening the impact of war on civilians is impossible. The use of unconventional weapons and extorsive kidnappings are negotiable, and its elimination can be made conditional on conceding on certain legitimacy issues.

Which would be simply acknowledging what we already know: that the government doesn't have control over the whole national territory, and that the FARC is the de facto government in certain regions.

But this government is not into acknowledging reality, or is it? Reality hurts opinion polls, and the sad currency of favorability points trumps human lives.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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platano says on Apr 17, 2005, 22:28:

I need to correct my earlier posting.... I said 40 years of military force against the FARC hasn't made a difference. I now believe I was wrong to say that. I think it can be argued that in fact the use of military force against the FARC has been counterproductive and has actually increased FARC support. So it has made a negative difference.

And if Uribe moves toward (continues?) a policy of "removing popular support" for the FARC (which translates to acting against civilians) the policy is only going to backfire on them. Does anyone remember Vietnam? You can bomb and burn and destroy and kill all you want (while of course calling it "pacification") and it will not lead to a peaceful democratic society. It will only increase opposition to your policy until you are saying things like "we had to destroy the town in order to save it"

I make the same criticism of the FARC. Their strategy of bombing with gas cylinders is not only immoral and illegal, it is also stupid and counterproductive. It can only alienate the civilian population they are supposedly dependent upon and whose support they need.

Some day both sides are going to have to sit down again... and maybe again and again and again... maybe like in other conflicts there will be years of sitting down at negotiations, but someday they will have to stop killing each other and sit down and talk.

For any Catholics out there, I believe talking is the official position of the Colombian Church leaders.

"But dialogue has been tried!" So have bullets. For forty years. TRY DIALOGUE AGAIN!

Plátano X,
Defensor de la libertad de la locomoción en Colombia (Constitución de 1991) ¡Libertad por Ingrid Betancourt y los demás secuestrados!
DISCLAIMER: I am not objective. I am madly in love with Colombia (and a bit mad, too!)

plátano

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Miguel says on Apr 18, 2005, 09:48:

Increible So the FARC do their damage on Thursday, and Uribe visits Toribío on Friday, with a large military escort, to declare that everything will be better; then he leaves, taking the soldiers with him, and this shit happens two days later. ¿Llmada llmada. Hay alguien en casa?...ok Spanish experts, I know this is not translatable like I just posted, but I think you get the gist. "Knock knock, is anybody at home"?
What a sad story and a stupid lack of action on the part of Boosh Dos.

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ARMacleod says on Apr 18, 2005, 11:20:

FARC? What exactly is the ultimate aim of the FARC? What are they fighting for? is it drugs, money, power or what?

If they simply wish to remove the elected government, why? Is it Marxism?

I cannot believe that this would go on for 40 or more years, how many generations have had to put up with this crap?

Poverty, could it be that they consider this to be their job? Because they know of nothing else.

I am sure someone must have an idea as to WTF is going on. If so, please let me in on the secret.

Pax vobiscom - Please!

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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platano says on Apr 18, 2005, 11:23:

What is FARC up to? I suggest you go to the horse's mouth... Who better to tell you than FARC itself? That way you don't get people's interpretations, you get first-hand primary source materials. Check out the FARC website at:

http://www.farcep.org/

Plátano X,
Defensor de la libertad de la locomoción en Colombia (Constitución de 1991) ¡Libertad por Ingrid Betancourt y los demás secuestrados!
DISCLAIMER: I am not objective. I am madly in love with Colombia (and a bit mad, too!)

plátano

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Miguel says on Apr 18, 2005, 11:46:

Come on Platano Tell us in your own words about Las Farc.

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platano says on Apr 18, 2005, 13:47:

No can do, Miguel, I only have direct experience with one "frente" the one that wanted to give me an all expenses paid vacation, and another frente, in the mountains, who provided me with first class accomodations (a hammock and beans and rice) and a number of urban "reinsertados" and one FARC deserter, but other than that my knowledge is limited.

And all of them were nice to me!

I have no knowledge of mean SOB's.

Plátano X

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 18, 2005, 16:50:

I had to laugh when I read "Have you considered the possibility that they are tired of fighting and that they might someday want to stop fighting or even that they might want peace?" Does a barking dog ever want to stop barking? Do they ever get tired of barking? My neighbor's got three dogs across the street and they're like the FARC - they never get tired of it. As long as there is money to be made in the drug trade they are never going to give it up. As for peace, war is far more profitable than peace.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on Apr 18, 2005, 17:30:

UTC, I guess I was thinking about... I guess I was thinking about other places where people seemed to get tired of killing each other... Beirut, Northern Ireland, El Salvador, etc.

The list is long where wars have gone on for decades and profits were being made, yet ultimately peace was achieved.

How was that possible?

Plátano X,
Defensor de la libertad de la locomoción en Colombia (Constitución de 1991) ¡Libertad por Ingrid Betancourt y los demás secuestrados!
DISCLAIMER: I am not objective. I am madly in love with Colombia (and a bit mad, too!)

plátano

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kikiortiz11 says on Apr 18, 2005, 17:30:

FARC website I already attempted to write the FARC at their website... But they dont even have the common decency to respond... They are nothing more than TERRORISTS! we need to get that straight around here!

Kiki Ortiz-Matallana

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platano says on Apr 18, 2005, 17:50:

ELN takes a more principled stand....in theory They see themselves as anti-capitalist.
They see drug trade as pure capitalism.
Ipso facto, ergo sum, and all those other Latin things G5 knows,
ELN doesn't do drugs.

Plátano X, un bobo simple más
Defensor de la libertad de la locomoción en Colombia (Constitución de 1991) ¡Libertad por Ingrid Betancourt y los demás secuestrados!
DISCLAIMER: I am not objective. I am madly in love with Colombia (and a bit mad, too!)

plátano

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 18, 2005, 18:21:

Three examples "I guess I was thinking about other places where people seemed to get tired of killing each other... Beirut, Northern Ireland, El Salvador, etc."

Lebanon: Let's see, basically the country was invaded by two neighbors, Israel and Syria, who stopped the "civil war" with their own troops. Both are now effectively gone or leaving after about 20 years. Let's see how long the peace lasts (fingers crossed).

Northern Ireland: The IRA had vastly wider public support than the FARC enjoys, yet agreed in the Good Friday agreements to seek a political solution, something the FARC disdains. Violence is still a problem there but things are significantly better. IRA hardcore troublemakers have found new stomping grounds, like Colombia.

El Salvador: The FMLN practially WON the Salvadorean conflict, despite Uncle Sam's best efforts to stop it. The FMLN probably had wider public support than any of the governments it opposed. Still, when given the chance to compromise, they did and integrated into society and poltics (something the FARC essentially rejected under Pastrana). El Salvador is still an extremely violent place with murder rates rivaling Colombia's.

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platano says on Apr 18, 2005, 18:43:

Tinto and Mr. Hollywood, You are both so obviously more knowledgeable than I am. Thank you for your posts.

Tinto: I hope Marulanda doesn't read PBH. I couldn't believe you were letting him know Bogotá exists. What if he now decides he wants it? From what I hear the militias in South Bogota are fairly strong. Don't give the man any new ideas about conquest! :-)

Mr. Hollywood: I, too, hope the peace lasts in Lebanon.

A political solution was agreed to in Ireland even though conventional wisdom swore the IRA disdained the idea of a political settlement. People said the conflict would go on forever.

FMLA compromised only after persistent efforts. FARC rejected Pastrana's efforts. But FARC is not the same FARC as under Pastrana. And Pastrana is gone. And HRW is on FARC's case. So we have new actors, a new political situation, new international condemnation of FARC. With so many things being new... perhaps it merits another try at a negotiated settlement?

Plátano the dreamer

plátano

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Miguel says on Apr 19, 2005, 00:40:

Creo que no... Five days in row now Farc has terrorized Toribío, and it appears no deals will be struck with either the AUC or ELN. Business as usual in Locolombia

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BlondeJamesBond says on Apr 19, 2005, 04:17:

Platano *A political solution was agreed to in Ireland even though conventional wisdom swore the IRA disdained the idea of a political settlement.*

Why would they disdain a political solution?

The IRA are now one of the biggest and most sophisticated criminal organisations in the world.

Shows what happens when you negotiate with and legitamise terrorists.

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platano says on Apr 19, 2005, 06:26:

The biggest criminal organization is the one... we can't really talk about on this forum but let's suffice it to say it produces and sells arms to littler criminal organizations like the IRA all over the globe and people negotiate with it all the time. Colombia negotiates with it.

The biggest criminal organization is giving weapons to Colombia and is training Colombian soldiers in their use. It gave weapons to Sadaam, too, then invaded his country and killed 100,000 civilians. For the sake of all Colombian civilians I pray they are never the recipients of that much helpfulness. (many would be in shock and awe, then dead)

If you look on a globe the biggest criminal organization is clearly labeled (immediately above Mexico).

Plátano X

plátano

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platano says on Apr 19, 2005, 11:42:

Tinto, the facts? The Lancet study is the only scientific study I am aware of. Do you know of any other scientific studies which have come up with different results? Or were you referring to commentary and opinion of those who didn't like 100,000?

Plátano X

plátano

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 19, 2005, 12:11:

Toribio, in Spanish "Asoc. Pachamama" wrote:

Para: comunidadtawantinsuyu at yahoogroups.com
De: "Asoc. Pachamama"
Fecha: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:29:54 -0400
Asunto: [tawantinsuyu] CONVOCATORIA URGENTE A LAS NACIONES UNIDAS, A LA OEA, A LA SOLIDARIDAD NACIONAL E INTERNACIONAL PARA DETENER LA GUERRA EN TORIBIO.




CONVOCATORIA URGENTE A LAS NACIONES UNIDAS, A LA OEA, A LA
SOLIDARIDAD NACIONAL E INTERNACIONAL PARA DETENER LA GUERRA EN
TORIBIO. Colombia

EL PRESIDENTE ALVARO URIBE ESTUVO EN TORIBIO AYER. LLEGO PARA
PROVOCAR LA GUERRA. LLEGO PARA CONVERTIR EL TERRITORIO DEL GRAN
PUEBLO EN CAMPO DE BATALLA Y DE MUERTE. DIJO ESTO: "Cuando llegó la
fuerza pública salieron corriendo miserablemente, salieron corriendo
cobardemente", ingresó y salió de Toribío en un convoy de
helicópteros artillados.

Y TUVO EXITO. EL PLAN DE MUERTE FUNCIONA. HAY MAS HERIDOS, MAS
GUERRA, DESPLAZAMIENTO Y TERROR. A TODOS LOS GUERREROS LES ESTORBA
EL PUEBLO NASA Y LA LUCHA POR LA DIGNIDAD Y LA VIDA. SI NO ACTUAMOS
DE INMEDIATO, VAN A DESPLAZAR EL LIDERAZGO DE LA LUCHA POR LA VIDA
EN COLOMBIA. HAY QUE ACTUAR YA!!!!!

A CONTINUACION EL INFORME ENVIADO DESDE TORIBIO. LO REENVIAMOS Y
LANZAMOS UNA CONVOCATORIA NACIONAL E INTERNACIONAL URGENTE, POR UNA
PRESENCIA INMEDIATA DE SOLIDARIDAD EN EL TERRITORIO Y RECLAMANDO LA
GESTION DE BUENOS OFICIOS DE LAS NACIONES UNIDAS, LA COMISION
INTERAMERICANA DE DERECHOS HUMANOS DE LA OEA Y LA UNION EUROPEA CON
EL APOYO SOLIDARIO DE INSTITUCIONES, PUEBLOS Y PROCESOS DE COLOMBIA
Y EL MUNDO PARA QUE EXIJAN UN CESE AL FUEGO INMEDIATO Y EL DESPEJE
DEL TERRITORIO DEL GRAN PUEBLO. ESCRIBAN SUS CARTAS AL SECRETARIO
GENRAL DE LA ONU, A LA COMISION INTERAMERICANA DE DERECHOS HUMANOS,
AL PARLAMENTO EUROPEO Y MOVILICEN SU SOLIDARIDAD. EL QUE SIGUE ES EL
TEXTO DE LAS AUTORIDADES ANCESTRALES.


CUARTO INFORME: EVACUADO EL HOSPITAL LOCAL EN TORIBIO
[ 04/17/2005] [ ] [ Autor: AUTORIDADES TRADICIONALES
DEL CAUCA]

CUARTO BOLETIN INFORMATIVO SOBRE LA SITUACIÓN DE ORDEN
PÚBLICO EN EL MUNICIPIO DE TORIBIO EN EL DEPARTAMENTO
DEL CAUCA COLOMBIA

Abril 17 del año 2005


PERSISTEN INTENSAMENTE LOS COMBATES EN EL Ã?REA RURAL Y
URBANA DEL MUNICIPIO DE TORIBIO.


EVACUADO EL HOSPITAL LOCAL DEL MUNICIPIO DEBIDO A QUE
FUE IMPACTADO POR VARIAS PIPETAS DE GAS.


Desde el día de ayer y durante toda la noche
arreciaron los combates en los alrededores del
municipio, el día de hoy los combates llegaron hasta
el área urbana, siendo impactado por varias pipetas de
gas el hospital �lvaro Ulcue, razón por la cual fue
evacuado este centro asistencial hacia el Puesto de
Salud de San Francisco, por el momento no se vislumbra
ninguna posibilidad de cese al fuego, puesto que el
despliegue militar y bélico de ambos bandos es
descomunal en los alrededores del municipio.

Hasta el momento (06:30 pm) los combates dejan un
saldo de un (1) policía muerto y seis (6) civiles
heridos, entre los que se encuentra un menor de edad
de nombre JOHN WILMAR CAN�S de 13 años de edad, quien
recibió un impacto de bala en la espalda con orificio
de salida en el estómago y fue remitido para Cali.

Los habitantes del casco urbano y áreas cercanas se
han desplazado a los diferentes sitios de
concentración, por esto, los responsables de los cinco
sitios de Asamblea Permanente (CECIDIC, EL MANZANO;
VICHIQUI, SAN FRANCISCO Y POTRERITO) hacen un llamado
desesperado a la solidaridad, pues escasean desde
tempranas horas los alimentos para la población
albergada en estos sitios.

En este momento desde la ACIN se hacen los
preparativos necesarios para recibir a la población
que toma la ruta a Santander de Quilichao en varios
vehículos, aunque estamos en alerta debido a la
advertencia de no desplazarse pues hay minas sobre la
vía. Fruto de esta advertencia fue impactado una de
las chivas que se movilizaba a este municipio.


De igual forma, informamos que una delegación de la
Cruz Roja Internacional que ingresaba con víveres a
POTRERITO le tocó devolverse debido a la intensidad de
los combates.


Solicitamos urgentemente el suministro de víveres a la
zona, siendo esto lo más prioritario por el momento,
cualquier apoyo hacerlo directamente a la Asociación
de Cabildos Indígenas del Norte del Cauca . También
tenemos una cuenta habilitada, ACIN – SOLIDARIDAD
TORIBIO, Número 838-081023-45 de Bancolombia .



CABILDOS INDIGENAS DEL MUNICIPIO DE TORIBIO, ALCALDIA
MUNICIPAL DE TORIBIO, ASOCIACION DE CABILDOS INDIGENAS
DEL NORTE DEL CAUCA, ACIN Y EL CONSEJO REGIONAL
INDIGENA DEL CAUCA, CRIC


Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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platano says on Apr 19, 2005, 12:27:

I can tell you what scientific means for me... It means counting, measuring, etc. to obtain data using acceptable methodology to obtain results capable of being confirmed or rejected by being repeated in another experiment (or, in this case survey). To my knowledge no one has come up with data to challenge the Lancet findings. They prefer to academically debate the methodology used without getting new data. The article you linked to says the sample was representative. Extrapolation from a representative sample is common. The numbers speak for themselves.

"The estimate is based on a September door-to-door survey of 988 Iraqi households -- containing 7,868 people in 33 neighborhoods -- selected to provide a representative sampling. Two survey teams gathered detailed information about the date, cause and circumstances of any deaths in the 14.6 months before the invasion and the 17.8 months after it, documenting the fatalities with death certificates in most cases.

The project was designed by Les Roberts and Gilbert M. Burnham of the Center for International Emergency, Disaster and Refugee Studies at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore; Richard Garfield of Columbia University in New York; and Riyadh Lafta and Jamal Kudhairi of Baghdad's Al-Mustansiriya University College of Medicine."

plátano

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platano says on Apr 19, 2005, 12:41:

Nope, we're talkin' science here, not subjective definition... if anything they underestimated, and in the meantime the numbers have increased:

"The researchers called their estimate conservative because they excluded deaths in Fallujah, a city west of Baghdad that has been the scene of particularly intense fighting and has accounted for a disproportionately large number of deaths in the survey.

"We are quite confident that there's been somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 deaths, but it could be much higher," Roberts said.

We do not need Mulder and Scully.

plátano

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platano says on Apr 19, 2005, 12:54:

Thanks, Tinto, for the off-topic latitude... Did the cure for cancer get published in a peer-reviewed journal like Lancet?

I wouldn't buy the stock anway. I'm broke! :)

I have enjoyed this brief exchange and I'm satisfied. It's old news and off topic so I'm ready to drop it.

Appreciate your POV,

Platano

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 19, 2005, 13:24:

When did this become PoorButHappyIraq?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on Apr 19, 2005, 13:49:

Colombia has already been established as a leader... when it comes to happiness. Iraq is no where near as happy as Colombia.

plátano

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