How to solve the coke problem

rocinante says on Aug 4, 2008, 15:20:

Drink Pepsi

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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Lipper says on Aug 4, 2008, 15:36:

I'm more of a root beer fan myself. Although give me an Orange cream soda and I'll be in heaven all night.

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Lon7 says on Aug 4, 2008, 15:39:

No way.
A big glass of cold whole milk with Oreo Cookies to dip into it!
Now were talking.

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expatriate says on Aug 4, 2008, 15:41:

Millions of people have been saying for decades the drugs should be made legal. Those who want it illegal, are the ones making money off of it.
There are U.S. and British soldiers in Afghanistan guarding poppy fields, where none used to exist. Coca production has been increasing in Colombia since the U.S. got involved. Coincidence?

Anytime the U.S. declares war on something, it just seems to get a lot worse.

In a nation ruled by swine, all pigs are upwardly mobile.

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harvardexec says on Aug 4, 2008, 15:46:

This subject has been revisited time and time again. For your answer, compare the following three countries:

1. Holland. Drugs are "tolerated". Few problems with gangs or narco traffickers.
2. Canada. Marijuana is generally "tolerated". There are relatively few gangs. Very few narco traffickers.
3. USA. Drugs are not tolerated. Many gangs. Many narco traffickers. Many illegal drug prescriptions.

Now, look at what happened in the US during Prohibition - a complete blood bath. Once Prohibition ended, the violence stopped. There was no longer demand on the black market to fuel the mob wars.

"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."-John McCain

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harvardexec says on Aug 4, 2008, 15:59:

John McCain on Legalization of Marjuana from a blogger call:

McCain: “Well, I don’t support it because it’s not the will of the people."

Jonathan: “But what about when it is the will of the people, as expressed by their votes?"

McCain: “Well, the will of the people doesn’t mean anything to me anyway, I know better than they do."

There's your answer August on Legalization....John McCain knows better than you do.

http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/11/15/john-mccain-on-medical-mari...

"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."-John McCain

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harvardexec says on Aug 4, 2008, 16:11:

Another way to combat the drug problem is to keep John McCain's wife 'Cindy' away from drugs:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/10/18/drugs/

"...she stole the drugs from her own nonprofit medical relief organization" for her own drug addiction.

A great role model for American families and society.

"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."-John McCain

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Joel y Luza says on Aug 4, 2008, 16:18:

Actually what is being legislated is DEMAND...... never works ... people will always find a way to meet demand.. That is why McCain has his head up his butt!

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harvardexec says on Aug 4, 2008, 16:44:

John McCain is a true American...a true Patriot. I respect and thank him for all the service he gave to the United States. But, do you want a War Guy leading the country when Wars (Iraq, War of Drugs) have been driving the US into a huge budget deficit?

People were worried about the War. Now people are worried about the economy. In the future, our whole economic system will need to be overhauled. McCain knows nothing about finances. McCain only knows how to go to War.

"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."-John McCain

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paulr says on Aug 4, 2008, 16:54:

Yeah, if you want someone to continue to f*/* up your country(And other countries), vote McCain.

"paulr threatens me with death !" pobrecito

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Monita Linda says on Aug 4, 2008, 19:49:

harvardexec: drugs is not really tolerated all the time, and in fact, they cause a LOT LOT LOT of problems... so its not a solution.


1. Holland. Drugs are "tolerated". Few problems with gangs or narco traffickers.

Few problems? Everything that can be stolen, gets stolen. From time there is a wave of gang members that gets shot on the street in day time. Narco trafficking and dealing are big problems.

Poor but Preppy ______Colombia: the only risk is wanting to lay.

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bickerss says on Aug 4, 2008, 19:53:

What will the drug dealers etc do for a ''job'' once the drugs are legal and their profit comes crashing down? Will they become upstanding citizens or pehaps turn to some other form of exotic ''revenue raising''?

Investment Strategy - buying when others are crying!! Offloading when others are gloating!!!

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harvardexec says on Aug 4, 2008, 20:37:

Monita....I did not say drugs were tolerated "all the time" and I am not inferring legalization is the end all to all problems. True, Holland has some problems. The problems with the gangs in Holland generally stem from the cocaine trade, because cocaine, unlike marijuana and ecstasy, cannot be manufactured in Holland.

If you legalize the manufacture and sale of cocaine in Holland, you will find the gangs (the middlemen) in Holland will cease to exist. What are they going to do? Kill all their fellow store owners selling Cocaine? Do all the liquor store owners in the US kill each other?

Addicts would seek treatment because they wouldn't be able to afford their habit.

My point is that when you legalize something, it no longer becomes a business dominated by gangs and narco traffickers.

"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."-John McCain

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harvardexec says on Aug 4, 2008, 20:41:

Bickerss...Some of them will find legal jobs in the trade. Some criminals will not longer be happy with the profit margins and will choose to go into other criminal activities. But why incarcerate hard working people who choose to use drugs responsibly?

"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."-John McCain

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bickerss says on Aug 4, 2008, 21:16:

I dont have an answer - was a 'seeking' question - I have more ''hardline'' views on the sellers / suppliers rather than users (in general) from a law enforcement perspective. I think that the ''western'' nations need to concentrate more on stopping abuse of drugs in their relevant countries if they ever want to see a reduction in the supply from ie latin america etc (ie no matter what draconian measures are employed, if people still want to use, which eqautes to a demand and therefore supply and ''money to be made'' - they will never win).

I assume that the many people who make a lot of money from the activity will not want to loose the power and money that is associated with the trade - could it be possible for eg in Colombia that if the drugs were made legal and troquetos (sp) primary source of income was stolen that they would turn to violent crime ie kidnapping etc (I dont know but am interested to see informed thoughts on that?)

Investment Strategy - buying when others are crying!! Offloading when others are gloating!!!

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harvardexec says on Aug 4, 2008, 22:58:

True, some people don't want to lose power. However, these people also have a "First In" advantage in the market place (they know how to produce and distribute the drugs). Like in any business, some will survive and some will not.

Will these people turn to kidnapping?

Generally speaking, no. The farmers will still be producing the drugs. The best dealers will have legitimized themselves. The dealers that can't adapt will get involved in some other criminal activity, usually from an existing network.

"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."-John McCain

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bamacellist says on Aug 4, 2008, 23:17:

"Addicts would seek treatment because they wouldn't be able to afford their habit."

This is a strange statement. Addicts everywhere engage in all kinds of activities to support their habits, including desperate and criminal ones. I have known several crank addicts who were doing jail time because they were caught breaking into pharmacies to steal prescription meds to sell to dealers so they could feed their meth habits. One also wonders how that fits with the scenario that legalization will guarantee enough genteel competition that prices will decrease by some amazing amount, thus eliminating the need for addicts to engage in criminality. While I understand very well the argument, it is not necessarily so, and given the ruthlessness that current suppliers engage in to protect their income, it could be an ugly thing to watch newbies trying to enter the biz as a simple honest and competitive business venture. The implied assertion that organized crime in the US disappeared with, or was pacified by the end of prohibition is just plain dumb!

They are "manufacturing" marijuana? Do you suppose coca cultivation is feasible on a large scale everywhere? At what financial incentive? Your business model is funny! Mom and Pop growing coca in the backyard next to the tulips, and processing it in the basement, to supply their quaint little head shop. No middlemen?!? A cottage industry of hobbyists and dilletantes?

By the way, profits are high because the rules of "supply and demand" apply this way: people are supplying the product and demanding a price that a sufficient number of consumers are willing to pay that that's what it costs. An increase in supply may, but also may not affect the price the suppliers demand. It depends on several factors such as exactly how big the increase in supply is and how willing they are to lower their return in the face of competition rather than simply killing the bugger who's in the way. Increased supply has no natural effect on the willingness of consumers to pay a certain price. Only suppliers engaging in price competition can do this. The cost of production has nothing at all to do with the cost of cocaine on the street. Current prices of cocaine are a reflection of high market demand (value) at each level of distrubution, not of illicitness or inadequate supply. Legalization will not automatically change that value. The consequences of legalization are not truly predictable, but there seems to me a lot of fantasizing involved when people start talking about gigantic drops in prices and the magical disappearance of criminal efforts to control distribution and markets where the value and expected returns are already established at very high levels. I admit it's a nice fantasy, and it could be a great thing if everything were to work just right, but it would take a flood on the order of a cinematic tidal wave to overturn current market forces and like any kind of flood there would be a lot of incidental mess to deal with.

"The future is much like the present, only longer."

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harvardexec says on Aug 5, 2008, 00:31:

I stand corrected on the statement about addicts. When drugs are legalized, I feel addicts will feel less shame asking for help, as their habit is no longer illegal and they will not fear jail time. I don't feel like ALL, or even the majority, will want help.

True this is "fantasy" talk. The results of legalization are not truly predictable. But, is supporting the same failed Drug Policy the answer? I'm not inferring that you are.

Yes, Marijuana is being grown in Holland. I am not a scientist, but from what I have read, Coca cultivation is not feasible on a large scale everywhere.

What financial incentive is there to produce drugs? Are you serious?

Yes, mom and pop farmers in Colombia do grow cocaine! They usually don't manufacture the end product, but they most certainly do grow coca.

People grow Marijuana in their houses in Holland for personal use. The marijuana sold in stores in Holland is commercially produced in Holland. "Incidental Mess" was insignificant when Holland adopted their new Drug Policy.

Prostitution is another area Holland has made some inroads as well.

"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."-John McCain

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august says on Aug 5, 2008, 07:30:

bamacellist, you suggest:

"Current prices of cocaine are a reflection of high market demand (value) at each level of distrubution, not of illicitness or inadequate supply."

But how can you separate the illicitness or inadequate supply from the demand at each level of distribution? Isn´t the the demand so intense at each level of distribution because there IS such a limited supply due to its illicitness and thus high profit margins to be realized? I think it´s interesting to compare this to marijuana where in the US there are many more users (greater demand), but the price by weight remains much lower than that of cocaine (due to more adequate supply).

Again, I don´t have the answers, but in my mind, I just keep coming back to the experiment with the prohibition of alcohol and how that seems to be such a clear argument for some form of legalization (at least in terms of lower levels of crime associated with its production and delivery to market).

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dwmte7 says on Aug 5, 2008, 20:49:

i think president gaviria made the largest advance in the world when he legalized the possession of (personal) coca, pot, etc. he noted that colombia didn't have a drug problem, more specifically, it had a drug dealer problem.

now, looking at the govt posture in colombia...since so many are corrupted by the drug problems, they want to revert to criminality, to advance and sustain their profits. oh! that ole filthy lucre.

dwmte

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sanandressi says on Aug 6, 2008, 10:00:

The Coca cola company and I would imagine Pepsico as well are actually allowed to import legally a certain amount of Coco leaf extract for their product. I read this in a rather detailed book about drug trafficking and cocaine.

"This train will stop in Tucumcari"

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sanandressi says on Aug 6, 2008, 10:04:

I am voting for Obama because he wants change. Real change! Change we can believe in....not!


McCain is Uribe and Obama is Pastrana. I will go with Uribe/McCain. Sorry if that offends.

"This train will stop in Tucumcari"

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jonas says on Aug 6, 2008, 10:04:

harvardexec says: "John McCain is a true American...a true Patriot. I respect and thank him for all the service he gave to the United States."

Now I wonder if you would say the same about George W. ??? Would you consider his politics patriotic?

Mi alma se la dejo al diablo

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dwmte7 says on Aug 6, 2008, 10:12:

i dunno about you guys/girls....but for me, time in the pow slam don't qualify anybody to be president. especially someone who was 3rd from last in his graduating class at annapolis, who's father and grandfather were admirals...so fricken what. we don't need a 'hawk' in the white house, out there lookin for wars to start. nuke iran? say fucin what? not with my vote.

dwmte

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romy says on Aug 6, 2008, 10:16:

I would be embarrassed to cast a vote for someone that gets cut down by PARIS HILTON
hahahha what a joke of a man, definitely lost respect for the guy...

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jonas says on Aug 6, 2008, 10:18:

sanandressi: you sound a lot like McCain himself. When explaining why people should vote for him (McCain) he talks about Obama...

Mi alma se la dejo al diablo

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dwmte7 says on Aug 6, 2008, 10:54:

the more i think about it, paris gets my poke.....er, vote. i saw the videos of her with her squeeze on some boat doin the 'poke and play' that chick is a pro. and i mean PRO.

dwmte

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romy says on Aug 6, 2008, 12:14:

Really??? haven't seen the vid, but a skinny white girl, I don't know...


Paris for Prez?
"Well, why don't we do a hybrid of both candidates' ideas?" she says. "We can do limited offshore drilling -- with strict environmental oversight -- while creating tax incentives to get Detriot making hybrid and electric cars. That way, the offshore drilling carries us until the new technologies kick in which will then create new jobs and energy independence. Energy crisis solved!"
She then continues: "I'll see you at the debates, bitches."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/06/AR2008...

heheheh that sounds like policy, instead of petty politics

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harvardexec says on Aug 6, 2008, 14:28:

Jonas....Would I say George Bush is a Patriot and his politics Patriotic?

I think your asking the wrong person this question.

Hmmm...In terms of military service, it has been documented "W" sometimes was a no show for his Reserve duties. "W" also had a habit of partaking in nose candy sessions and getting stopped by the cops for DUI. While other soldiers were serving there country, "W" was serving shots.

Patriotic politics? The US is a War Machine. Think tanks develop policy (with no regard to public opinion) and the White House enacts the Policy. Defense contractors influence the policy makers. "W" found a way for the US to go to war. So I would say the "yes", George Bush practices patriotic politics.

"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."-John McCain

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dwmte7 says on Aug 6, 2008, 16:09:

here, here...

dwmte

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gatogris says on Aug 6, 2008, 19:04:

The agreed upon 'solution' to the problems swirling around the cocaine trade is the current experiment taking place in California with regard to 'medical marijuana.' By licensing doctors to provide legal sanction for certain people to buy and consume pot, the state legislature has gradually opened the door to every link along the supply chain, easing the friction around this issue and unburdening large sectors of the court system.

What has taken place would not surprise any economist. The number of people burnin one down has not increased, but the 'decriminalization' process has opened the market to financially savvy entrepreneurs who understand their consumers better than any gun-toting cholos. In other words, California is witnessing the Whole Foods-ization of the marijuana trade, as value-added varietals with catchy names take the top market share, and hip promoters who offer neo-hippie cachet to go with the blunts flip the feds the bone.

'Rebel' organic farmers with sweet spreads in Humbolt County get to play the rebel while socking away 500 K a year with ethical investment firms.

Cocaine, if gradually decriminalized, with signifigant punitive measures in place for those who can't play nice, would follow the same pattern. Musicians, artists, ad executives and porno producers would toast each others' fine taste over crystal dishes of 'pure Bolivian Blue Flake,' while bemoaning those sad sacks who can't afford the good stuff, sniffing with superiority like your stuffy brother-in-law who dumps the Concha y Toro you brought over down the toilet rather than serve it to his guests.

In other words, bourgeois class games of taste can be harnassed by good marketers, taking the trade out of the hands of crude gangs and placing it in the hands of slick hucksters, who will take your money so smooth they will leave you thanking them.

It just depends on who you'd rather see holding the reins, Robert Mondavi or Tony Montana.

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dwmte7 says on Aug 6, 2008, 21:35:

like your style of summerizing the need for change.....change we can count on...if we took a vote now, i'm sure you'ld win.

dwmte

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rhydewithdis (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 6, 2008, 23:06:

gatogris, and anyone else interested in how medical marijuana is playing out in California, you should read this!


Dr. Kush
How medical marijuana is transforming the pot industry.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/28/080728fa_fact_samuels?cu...

They said I couldn't play football I was too small / They say I couldn't play basketball I wasn't tall / They say I couldn't play baseball at all / And now everyday of my life I ball.

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dwmte7 says on Aug 7, 2008, 05:02:

now that's a long read.....all about the smoke. hmmmm yummmmmm

dwmte

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gatogris says on Aug 7, 2008, 06:41:

Thanks rhyde, this article confirms my main points.

One of which now is....I may be in the wrong business!

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august says on Aug 8, 2008, 08:16:

The last couple lines of that article are amazing:

"Growing ganja lets you feel that you’re still living on the edge, especially when you’ve become a little complacent politically. Emily nodded, and took another puff. “The forest is still getting cut down or whatever,� she said, watching the fragrant smoke swirl in the breeze. “But you’re still working out here. You’re still subverting the Man. And you’re getting people high.� "

Makes a Californian feel like its time to get back home. Good input everybody.

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poco says on Aug 8, 2008, 10:03:

Quote: The way I see it, the more governments attempt to restrict the production and trafficking of coke, the higher it´s price gets at the end of the line and, thus, the greater the incentive for people to try to subvert the efforts of those governments and keep pushing coke towards its final destination.
==========
This is a western view. In China they have an enforced death penalty. China has portable execution chambers,, truck mounted,, save time and money,, executing a person is easier than ordering home delivery pizza.

Not much of a problem with drugs in China,, considering they have over a billion more people than the U.S.

68 crimes — more than half non-violent offenses such as tax evasion and drug smuggling — are punishable by death in China.

Humm,, I wonder,, it you get caught smuggling drugs and evading taxes on the money,, do you get killed twice ? Two concurrent death penalties ? Maybe they can bring back the dead ? Bring them back after they are half dead,, do it four times and well,, that's the equal of being dead twice ?

OH,, but that's not humane ? right romy ? Better to have the drug dealers responsible for killing kids,, is that right ?

Anyone know the percentage of Chinas population that was addicted to opium during the height of Chinas "drug addiction" ?

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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poco says on Aug 8, 2008, 13:46:

Harvardexec Quote: Another way to combat the drug problem is to keep John McCain's wife 'Cindy' away from drugs, she stole the drugs from her own nonprofit medical relief organization" for her own drug addiction.

A great role model for American families and society.
================================

Mr. Harvardexec:
Don't you think this is a little more revealing ??? That's what you want isn't it,, the truth ?
==
She graduated from Southern Cal and was a special-needs teacher.

After her Dad died she became involved with his beer distributing firm and is now the chairwoman. Sales have doubled since she has taken over from her father.

They have a marriage prenuptial agreement, her assets remain separate.

She is involved around the world clearing land mines - travels to these countries on a detonation team and service on their board.

They have a 19 year old serving in Iraq, another son in the Naval Academy, a daughter recently graduated from Columbia Univ., an adopted daughter in high school, and a son who is the finance guy at the beer firm.

Raised kids in Phoenix, Az rather than Washington DC. (better atmosphere) He commuted.

In 1991, Mrs. McCain came across a girl in an orphanage in Bangladesh. Mother Teresa implored Mrs. McCain to take the baby with severe cleft palate. She did so without first telling her husband. The couple adopted the girl who has had a dozen operations to repair her cleft palate and other medical problems.

They have a Family Foundation for children's causes.

She's active with "Halo Trust" - to clear land mines, provide water and food in war ravaged and developing countries.

She will join an overseas mission of "Operation Smile", a charity for corrective surgery on children's faces. She has had two back surgeries and became addicted to pain killers. She talks openly about it which she says is part of the recovery process.

I'm surprised the media is so quiet about her attributes. They have tired to discredit John McCain because of his wife's wealth, looks as if she knows how to put money and time to use in many good causes. What a novel thought to have such a fine person as "First Spouse" She sounds more capable than Hillary or Obama. We would really get two for the price of one. A person with business and international experience. John did work for the firm for awhile when he left the Navy. She, however, has the real business experience.

=====
Maybe I should post a few links to Obamas wifes quotes,, naw,, that’s tooooo easy. You look them up.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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podborski says on Aug 8, 2008, 14:36:

legalize drugs and treat addictions like any other illness.

People argue against legalazation 'because drugs are bad for people'. Yeah they are, I had a good friend who destroyed his life with coke.

But coke is illegal and he still easily obtained it. So prohibition sure isn't helping.

All prohibition does is make it more profitable for the worst kind of people, makes medical treatment less likely and gives drugs a cachet that attracts a lot of young rebellious kids.

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poco says on Aug 8, 2008, 14:55:

Pod,, who in Colombia do you think will pay for treatment ? Treatment today is probably at least $50,, probably $100 per day in Colombia.

Legalize,, that is a joke in Colombia. NO ONE that I can determine,, and I've asked,, has been arrested for using drugs,,

sell drugs or transport drugs,, off to jail you go.

So,, drugs are essentially FREE in Colombia and yet,, there are lots of addicts. They are cheap, cheap, cheap,, maybe a mil or two for a basuco joint. Pot,, less money.

You can't help stupid people,, oh,, maybe some,, but I think the success rate for basuco addiction is almost zero,, I've heard some rehabs have given up.

This is Tulua,, no bull. Typical estrato 0 dweller.



So,, who pays to fix this guy under the tree ? Some poor sap that's working and doing the right thing ? Or perhaps you can adopt him,, I'd bet he cost no more than a dog in the U.S. ,, although he might not have big cute eyes,, wag his tail when you show up,, heck,, he might bite the hand that feeds him.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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podborski says on Aug 8, 2008, 18:06:

I understand poco, but who's helping him now?

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poco says on Aug 8, 2008, 18:36:

Quote: I understand poco, but who's helping him now?
=======
No one of course,, actually,, he appears to have been evicted from his primary home under the bridge,, due to construction.

In all fairness,, it might not be drugs,, could be booze,, or maybe he was thirsty,, or,, a combination.

One large problem in the world is that some people don't seem capable of taking care of themselves, humm the Chinese seem to be responsible,, but I'm not totally sure.

This guy,, what good is he,, think he's helping his family,, his mother,, ? No of course not, so,, who will be responsible for those that can't accept self responsibility ??

Me ? Ha,, no way, I worked hard for what I've got and I'm not giving any of it up to make some irresponsible person a pet.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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dwmte7 says on Aug 11, 2008, 20:03:

i heard people talk about basuco in colombia...what exactly is it. i know it's from coke, but what? like crack or what?

dwmte

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tejasmarcos says on Aug 11, 2008, 20:19:

there is a problem with coke?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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beisbollover says on Aug 12, 2008, 07:23:

If the world agrees to pay $30/pound for coffee the farmers in Bolivia, Ecuador and Colombia will stop growing coca. They really don't care what they grow as long as it sells. Now try telling the world they have to pay $8 for a single cup of coffee.

"The reason you don't understand me Edith is because I am speaking English but you are listening Dingbat!" -Archie Bunker

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tejasmarcos says on Aug 12, 2008, 07:40:

beisboll - the shift should be to a renewable energy product which is starting to occur.

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 12, 2008, 07:49:

The days of the International Coffee Organization (ICO) acting as a cartel and the United States being a willing participant in that cartel for Cold War reasons (all coffee is grown in the tropics and almost all tropical countries are/were very poor) are over. If Andean farmers can't make money at $1.50 a pound for raw, green coffee, they ought to find another line of work because a farmer or farming organization in another country sure can. On the plus side, some Colombians are doing the right things (finally!) with single origin, organic, Juan Valdez stores, etc to get a higher price per pound.

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