How much does a house maid cost?

LarsBrink says on Sep 28, 2004, 08:50:

Back in 2000.. Hi,

Back in year 2000 I paid around 14.000 pesos for an 8-9 hour day. My maid came once a week and cleaned the apartment, washed the disches and my clothes etc.

Regards,

Lars Brink - colombia.dk - brink-christensen.dk

~ Lars Brink ~ www.colombia.dk ~

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litost says on Sep 28, 2004, 10:59:

It depends a lot on wether she will be living in your house, or just going everyday to work some hours.

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elmodefoque says on Sep 28, 2004, 11:24:

Why did I have a funny feeling litos would know about this, and where is colombianox, he probably has one maid (muchacha) for every room. That’s why he’s got too much time on his hand and only thinks about how much he hates pobre deader than a door nail Pablo.
One question, what’s wrong with cleaning up your own mess?
Sorry, I just could not resist this one.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 28, 2004, 11:33:

maid's salary In any city should be the minimum wage (as a minimum), plus the lodging, food, medical care, two weeks paid vacation, two primas and a cesantía. Working clothes and shoes will also be provide by the employer. What's wrong with that elmo? It's an honest, paid employment and has all the benefits and protection to an employee as provided in the codigo laboral.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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elmodefoque says on Sep 28, 2004, 11:40:

If people in the USA can’t survive on minimum wage, I pity the poor souls that have to live with Colombia’s minimum wage. My heart goes out to them.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 28, 2004, 11:54:

my heart goes out to the ones who have no employment at all, no social benefits, no supporting network at all. No food stamps, no medicaid , nothing. The desplazados, the old, the children, all the unprotected poor people in Colombia and other countries.
A maid making a minimum salary with all the legal benefits according to the codigo del trabajo pays no rent, has all her meals free, pays nothing for her work clothes or her doctor's bills. She's much better off than many other people.
Don't be sanctimonious, elmo, it doesn't look good on you.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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elmodefoque says on Sep 28, 2004, 12:08:

Don’t be what?? jejeje
You’re absolutely right, thank god we have dirt poor people in this world to make our life at lot easier, all we have to do is throw some crumbs and they’ll be content. Is nice that we got rid of the sonamanbiche “che� with his stupid ideas like “dignidad o muerte!!�

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 28, 2004, 12:28:

papa don't preach:)
Come up with some real arguments, instead.
Cheers,
Desi
(missing very much my nice maids who helped me keeping a big household, care for my babies, cook my meals and clean my house.)

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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elmodefoque says on Sep 28, 2004, 12:35:

Desi, to be honest I would not mind a Swedish maid at all. But I’m sure they get a lot more than Colombian maids. I want a blonde 5’6� with tiny waist and big ass, boobs I’ll take them if she has them. Boy! do I have a uniform for them? right outta “Victoria S
Secret�
Chaooo, gotta go home!

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 28, 2004, 12:45:

My advice about maids Even though I'd like to have a maid like Elmo's, too, my advice for any foreigner hiring a maid in Bogotá is this: Ask your rich Colombian friends for good references for a maid (they'll have plenty). Ask them what they pay THEIR maids. Then double it.

Believe me, the extra 20,000 pesos a day won't mean a damn thing to you and means everything to your maid who, in case you haven't figured it out, knows where you live, when you come and go, where you hide your collection of donkey porn, and who you call on the phone. No point making her think twice about whose team she's on.

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gringa-colombiana says on Sep 28, 2004, 12:55:

Excellent advice Mr. Hollywood!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 28, 2004, 13:02:

no no no hollywood nothing like "doubling their salary". You'll spoil them for life. They will never be able to work for anybody else after you took your pick and pack and returned to your rich home country again. They'll still have to live in Colombia unless you can figure out to take your maid with you when you go.
Pay them well, treat them like you'd treat any trusted and respected employee in your company, go by the book with her rights and responsibilities, don't patronize her! Respect her instead, and when you don't need your maid any longer, give her a substancial gift in money.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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caslug says on Sep 28, 2004, 15:39:

Spoil them for life?... Sounds like what a upper class person would say to salve their conscience. That's like saying don't give money to charity, because it'll just encourage more charity... The extra money(if you can afford it) will help them alot more than just showing respect. You can't put food on the table w/ respect.

Desi, there's a saying that us gringos believe in..

Money talks... B$llsh$t walk

It's gringos like Hollywood, that gives us american a reputation of being kind & generous.

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elmodefoque says on Sep 28, 2004, 16:41:

You guys make me so proud to live in this incredible great country, called USA. Sure we got some racist rednecks and republicans but the great majority weather they be black, white, Latino, Asian, native or even a homo, all are caring, compassionate, and generous Americans that the world needy look for in time of despair and your broads are stunning too. Damn, I feel so proud and patriotic and I’m not even American, I’m not even Colombian, I’m nothing I’m just an asshole with no country. Anyway, I feel so damn proud I’m not eating my usual rice, bean, and eggs today, instead I’m having meatloaf and mash potato a Budweiser 6 pack and I’m going to watch football and fart all evening. God bless America, land that I …..... I ‘m glad my boys Fidel and Che� are not around to read this, they’ll be really pissed off.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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elmodefoque says on Sep 28, 2004, 16:51:

Mr. Hollywood I ‘m going to give you a good spot to hide your donkey porno tapes. I hide my donkey porno tapes inside a hallowed out book. Just cut into the middle pages and stick you video tape close the book and put it up on the shelve.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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villdkatta says on Sep 28, 2004, 16:57:

Well, you know the over-opinionated gringa that has never even been to Colombia yet has to weigh in on every issue, so here goes...

I used to clean houses 15 years ago, in addition to working my regular job. I appreciated the work and it kept me from having to go on welfare, or worse. It liberated me because it wasn't a bad job and I had enough pocket money to spend for Christmas and to pay the rent. Big deal, mop a few floors, clean a few toilets, wash some undies, it's legal and it kept me out of trouble.

I don't think there's anything wrong with hiring a maid. Right now I have more money than time, so I may hire one. I think if you treat them right and pay them a great wage you aren't hurting anyone. If you try to exploit them by paying a crappy wage and giving them crummy disgusting work to do, then that's another story.

I do know the family I'm helping right now would rather have ANY type of work rather than taking money from someone they barely know, but they have no choice. They'd turn down my money in a heartbeat just to find some honest work.

Just my opinion.

Kim

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PC says on Sep 28, 2004, 16:58:

Double It? Sure double it, then your maid will tell everyone she knows what a rich sucker you are. Suddenly you will get solicitations from every Tom, Dick, and Harry she knows (and she will know plenty) trying to sell everything and anything they can to you.

Then, one day one of her friends will suddenly show up when you are not around and if they can get in, go right to wherever the most valuable things you have are and carry them all off.

Colombians in general seem to think that gringos in general are stupid and gullible. You don't need to prove them right. Check references closely and try to get someone with good recommendations.

Really, it's best not to have a live-in maid at all, but a full time maid who comes to work from her own home, this will set you back about USD $40 per week. Try to get someone who is a professional maid, meaning a responsible adult with a family. The young live-in maids are so prone to theft you will be astounded.

Everyone I know who has had young single live in maids has had problems with theft and many with child abuse as well. If you have kids, for god's sake NEVER EVER leave them alone with your maid, especially if she is a young live-in maid.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 28, 2004, 17:20:

Let me guess... Let me guess, PC, you're from an upper-class Colombian family?

That argument is the most transparent bullshit I've ever heard and, frankly, hearing it over and over from upper-class Latin Americans (it's not unique to Colombia, unfortunately) really makes me understand Elmo's class resentment.

My maid knows what a rich sucker I am not because of what I pay her but because by her standards I live in a ridiculously overpriced neighborhood, eat out at ridiculously overpriced restaurants, have a nice car, wear nice clothes and travel frequently. Hell, with just what I spend on phone bills in a month I'm sure she could send half her neighborhood kids to school.

But get this. I treat her very respectfully. I pay her well. I talk to her and listen about the details her life with genuine care. I don't scold her when she breaks a dish (which I hear a lot of Colombians do). I thank her ever chance I get for all the help she gives. In short, I have a REAL human relationship with her. And you know what? None of the bleak things that you are so sure will happen as the result of paying a maid a living wage has come true.

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elmodefoque says on Sep 28, 2004, 17:25:

Void , cleaning house in the Villka , cleaning house in the good ol USA and cleaning house in Colombia is a big, big, big, difference. How does 120 dollars a month sound to you, when you have three kids to support?
As for the maids stealing and smacking your kids around, If I was getting lousy pay I would do it too. How you feel if your kids have nothing to eat while that rich, spoiled brat, little bastard is throwing the food on the floor just to make you clean it. Shit, I’ll smack the moco of his nose too. And if I did not have any money that day to feed my kids damn right I’m going through your pockets. But if I had a generous bosses like Mr. Hollywood and Caslug I will defend them with my life and I make sure nobody messes with them, and I wont tell anyone that they watch donkey porno tapes.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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elmodefoque says on Sep 28, 2004, 17:52:

Mr. Hollywood, I know this people, I know how they are, and I know how those peso rich, third world Colombian asshole treat the poor. People think I’m full of BS but this PC guy is the perfect example of most Colombian upper class. Those are the types I go searching for in Colombia to knock the moco off their face. I only hope that I still have a few good years of fight in me. I need to kick more asses before I call it quits.
What I would love to do is tide them to a tree, butt naked, spread eagle and have my donkey take all the anger he has for me, take it out on them. Have you seen a donkey fully erect?

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 28, 2004, 18:26:

In fact Elmo, hermanito, I have in fact seen a donkey fully erect, which is why I have so much compassion to you over losing your virginity to one. Boy, that must have really hurt, even if the donkey warmed you up with some good foreplay first. It's a wonder you can walk, even after all these years.

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caslug says on Sep 28, 2004, 18:30:

I'm starting to understand elmo's anger toward the upperclass. With the way i hear some poster talk about treating their "help".

Upperclass Col are starting to sound somewhat arrogance and callous. Americans generally believe that working hard should be reward, so if your employee is hardworking and productive. Why not compensate them well, and if you can't afford to, that's OK. But to use some BS reason to justify your guilt or callousness for not paying, is well.. BS. Talk about classism.

For those of you who believe "don't spoil them" philospohy, would you be OK if your boss denied you a raise, and gave that as the reason?

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Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 28, 2004, 18:34:

Correction to my post above Apparently PC is a gringo, at least according to the post where he gripes about how terrible all the food in Bogotá is. Did I forget to mention that my maid, the one I overpay, is an awesome cook of traditional Colombian food and is capable of learning how to cook just about any other kind of foreign food after being shown just one time?

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caslug says on Sep 28, 2004, 18:39:

sound like a one-of-kind maid Hollywood, I read on another site, that in a 2/3rd world country, if you find a maid who doesn't steal(#1 concern) & is hardworking. Those are the keepers, because they're hard to find. Like good employers I guess. Well PC is coming off as an "ugly american".

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poco says on Sep 28, 2004, 18:43:

Maid Pay - Towns Maid: full time 5-1/2 days a week: 75.00 USD month. Cleans, cooks, washes your ropa by hand and hangs and folds. Family of 4.

Maid: Same only half a day 5 days week. $30.00 month.

Security Guard: Farm, 12 hours day, 7 days week, 52 weeks a year. Maybe gets a vacation. $180 per month. That is a good job to have it you have no education or special (read long time) construction skills.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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caslug says on Sep 28, 2004, 18:49:

$75/month???? WOW!!! In CA, my friend is paying about $60 for 3 or 4 hrs.

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elmodefoque says on Sep 28, 2004, 19:07:

Mr. Hollywood, now hold on a minute. When I’m having intimate moments with my burro, Maria Elena, I always pitch I never catch, I repeat, I only pitch I never catch. jejejej

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 28, 2004, 19:26:

Not to beat a dead horse (sorry elmo) I don't mean to beat a dead horse but of course there's a problem with maids stealing from people who treat them so poorly. Hell, I'd steal from my employer, too, if he nickle and dimed me to death (literally) while living in splendor.

One of the sad things about a place like Colombia with nearly 20% unemployment is that you can always find someone so desperate they'll work for almost free. That's what has happened to the economy of people whose skills are so unkindly referred to as "unskilled labor". But that doesn't make it right to me to pay someone a starvation wage just because I could get away with it.

There's a whole service sector in Colombia of drivers, maids, nannies, doormen, guards, etc that makes life really pleasant here for those of us fortunate enough to have some dough. I think it's only right to treat them well.

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PC says on Sep 28, 2004, 19:42:

Nope, not even close! Hollywood,

Nope, not even close. I'm neither rich, nor Latin American. What is transparent here is how poorly you understand human nature. Here is the proof, I am a full blooded Gringo who lives in Colombia! I was born to a rather poor American family, and now I live down here. I have never been above middle class, and nowhere near rich.

Regarding my housekeeper, I too treat my housekeeper with utmost respect and dignity, so much so in fact that she left a good job in a different and very nice home to work for us, for the same salary.

But all that is beside the point. Facts are facts, and if you know anything about life in Colombia, you know that gringos are absolutely walking targets of opportunity here. Especially if they can afford a housekeeper.

Regarding the other issue. Elmo makes my point for me. Do you really think that he is the only disgruntled Colombian in existence? Did you ever consider even for a moment the story that you have heard "over and over", just might have something to it? Why do you think you have heard it so much? Are you so ignorant of Colombian culutre that you actually believe that all of these people are just making it up?

It's class warfare down here and people do have to protect themselves, ESPECIALLY GRINGOS! All housekeeprs are not bad, and I did not mean to make it sound like they were. But many, especially the young ones, are. And if you should get one bad one regardless of how well you pay or treat her, it could cost you dearly. Not just in financial terms but in real human terms.

I honestly hope you never experience what some people very dear to me have experienced. The injury of a child, the molestation of a child. These are horrible things and they happen all the time down here. Regardless of how well they pay or treat their housekeepers.

I also know people who treat them poorly, and I don't condone it at all. But by assuming that I am a rich or upper class Colombian, which is as wrong as it could be, you are making the exact same misjudgement that you accuse me of.

Rather my comments are the reflections of an objective outsider who has been able to see with my own eyes what really happens. You have been fortunate, don't make the mistake of thinking that your good fortune will be repeated in every gringo who comes down here.

I don't disagree that you should pay them fairly, but to pay double, just makes them think you are gullible.

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elmodefoque says on Sep 28, 2004, 20:17:

Hey PC
“A class warfare going down here�. What you talking about Willis? Man weather a person is rich or poor don’t really matter to me, what matters is how they treat they fellow human, and apparently you treat the less unfortunate like crap and you like to keep them in their place. Mr. Hollywood probably makes double what you make but I like him. What’s important to me is that he seems like the American many of us in the third world, admire, generous, compassionate and kind. Damn, I sound like I should be on the Oprah show. But I really feel that. I would love to sit around with him in Bogotá have a couple of drinks and check some of his donkey porno. I have a feeling he makes tons of doe and I’m happy as hell for him. So you are wrong when you say all us poor bastards are out to get you.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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poco says on Sep 28, 2004, 20:21:

Town Explained Town: ie: Pueblo population less than 60,000.

Experience indicates the wages are double for Bogota, Cali, etc.

No one speaks English (well, one or two) in most of these towns.

Yes, the poster is correct, DO NOT pay more than the locals,, just treat them better. To do anything else would be a mistake.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Colombiano_81 says on Sep 28, 2004, 23:21:

does that mean that i have to register into some legal work permit or soemthing to hire a maid??

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villdkatta says on Sep 29, 2004, 01:58:

Elmo I know it's different here in the US, but I am only saying that some work is better than none, *at least to me*. As for me, I grew up poor in the PJs, slept in the same bed with my mother and brother and we never had enough food, and I've been homeless. Cleaning houses was better than sleeping on the beach with my 2 year old.

I grew up poor, and while I admit I have no idea about the degree of poverty some people in Colombia experience, I will never, ever forget where I came from.

I tend to overtip, give all my money away, and overpay people. I'm not bragging, that's just the fallout from my upbringing where I don't forget how it is to not have a lot of money.

Kim

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Colombiano_81 says on Sep 29, 2004, 03:12:

anyways thanks for the info guys

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Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 29, 2004, 08:25:

Sorry I typecast you as the worst of Colombia’s upper-class, PC, but your ridiculous comments about how maids will rob you blind if you dare to pay them more than a starvation wage is exactly the kind of assumed “wisdom�you hear all the time from bitter old Strata 11 widows bitching about how hard it is to find someone who’ll polish the silver correctly and how these uppity “muchachas� keep leaving to go have babies.

My comment “double it� was an off the cuff generalization, but just for the sake of argument let’s do a little math. The going day rate for a maid in Bogotá is about $15,000 pesos, also known as a little less than 6 bucks, and they generally work a 10 hour day. So assuming a wild-ass gringo like me decides to really double that and pay my maid $30,000 (12 bucks a day) what really happens?

Is an extra $6 really significant to your average expatriate? Does it mean the difference between your kid having enough to eat, you going to the doctor when you’re sick, maybe if you can help out your invalid parent who is living in a shack? No, it doesn't. Yet for a Colombian woman on the bottom of the economic spectrum, that extra money is the difference between a life of extreme austerity and struggle or one with a bit of breathing room.

Despite Elmo’s glamorous image of me, I’m not some rich limousine liberal with tons of dough, but I do feel like as foreigners living in a country with so much economic need we have a chance to do some good in our own relationships with the people who help us. Everyone gets to make their own decision, but I refuse to listen to the people who say that it’s wrong or stupid to pay people who do so much for me what I think they deserve.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 29, 2004, 09:06:

hollywood the difference between you and me is that I never lived the life of a wealthy expat in Colombia, but rather as a Colombian family still struggling to make a living for themselves. No, I still don't think it's a good idea to overpay the maids, but rather to pay a good salary and fulfill all the legal obligations with her contract. No, I'm not a "bitchy strata 11 widow who needs somebody to polish my silver", you are stereotyping with a liberal hand and come on quite strong assuming that every foreigner living in Colombia is well-off.
I have never been wealthy and have cleaned houses for filthy rich Palm Beach women for a few months in my youth between other jobs and going to school. I have no disrespect for honest day's work, regardless of the salary. I can, and have for the most part of my life, cleaned up my own messes, many other people's messes and will continue doing so, as long as I can. I don't think household chores or menial labor is something that I person should be ashamed of.
When treating your maid as a respected and appreciated employee you recognize her value as a human being. Patronizing her puts you on a different level totally. Doubling her salary will make the future employment for her hard to find,unless you sponsor her going to night school on her free time, which I have done. My maids have moved on to better paying jobs afterwards, but many of them kept visiting us for many years afterwards.
Some of my maids have disappeared shortly with some of our belongings, I have not even found in my heart to be angry at them: obviously the things that they took with them were more necessary for them than for us.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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JamieJ says on Sep 29, 2004, 09:12:

What’s more important than the wage is the quality of the maid. Finding a good maid is very difficult. The people in Colombia look down on maids, so those that become maids are usually societies least intelligent. Many if not most Colombian women would prefer not to work than to work as a maid. I have offered such work and have heard many times, “My mom did not raise me to be a maid.� Her mom didn’t raise her to have a good work ethic either. The idea of having an important member of the “family� understand so little about the proper methods of child rearing, food preparation, cleanliness and healthy and safe living conditions is mind boggling. Yet this is the reality that takes place in most homes that have maids.

What you pay your maid can be negotiated between the two of you outside the labor laws that will continue to confine Colombia many steps from economic recovery and competitive advantages. Lets see we have many people unemployed and underemployed so lets create labor laws to discourage entrepreneurs from hiring.

You can pay as little as $200.000 pesos per month for a full time maid. But with all the added mistakes and problems that will come for the caliber of such work it would be foolish to do so. It is pretty much a given that if you are working for an American you are going to get more than the market wage. But the idea of paying a dishonest person more money to be honest is a silly notion. Bad people do not learn good values through higher payment. I only wish that were the case. But I suspect convincing those that are prone to steal if the wage they voluntarily accepted does not meet their requirements wouldn’t see this. I have also noticed monetary incentives do not have the same pull in Colombia like it does in the States.

I normally tell the person I am going to hire what the requirements are, can they and do they agree to do what is required, and what will they need to be paid to do so. I than pay them more and tell them the more you do and the better you are the more you will get. My wife thinks I over pay but I am not doing so out of generosity. I do so with the expectation of getting quality performance that is being rewarded and appreciated, and it has paid off.

What I have found is the older the maid the less likely you are going to be able to change her ways. Just because I live in Colombia doesn’t mean I am going to expect what other Colombians would expect. If I did than I would consume more cooking oil in a month than I would in two years living in the States. If you have particular requirements of what you eat and how things are done you should hire someone young and schooled. I eventually ended up with a recent college graduate who while not perfect is at least learning how to do different things and why they need to be done this way. If you do not hire a smart person capable of understanding, learning and changing this is some of what you will get:

You will get someone who stores flammables in the oven.
You will get someone who does not store perishables in the refrigerator.
You will eat a bland diet and become blind from the reflection of white rice on your plate every other day.
You will find after you tell her no more rice that the only safe bet is your next meal is going to have rice.
You will lose many hours pondering how is it possible to ruin pasta.
You will get someone that mixes raw chicken that will be cooked with vegetables or salad that will not be cooked. They won’t know what the problem is, but after you teach them about bacteria they will go home and tell their children about tiny outer space invaders.
When you complain that your cooked chicken is still pink inside her reply will be, “and?�
Your suit will take a ride in the washing machine.
You will have to explain to them how to use a microwave afterwards you will notice that the microwave is never used.
Your cup of coffee will always be served half full and for some reason the day after you fill the refrigerator with groceries its half empty.
You will learn poring bleach on a clean floor everyday while you are slowly suffocating on the fumes is considered keeping the place clean.
You will be told not to worry about the water in the toilet bowl being blue it’s a “new� cleaning product. You will than look at the calendar to see what year it is.

This is a story regarding an ex-maid:
When I found out she did not know how to read and wanted permission to buy pesticides for the cucarachas and mice. I asked her, is it possible if I say yes that you not mix the poison with the food. All I got from her was a smile. Thinking back on this, a smile coming from a regular person would be an acknowledgement, however a smile coming from a maid was probably just a sign of confusion. I have no doubt that 20 years of vitamin intake went for not with that weeks meals.
Jamie
Engage The Exotic - Colombian Women

Jamie

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elmodefoque says on Sep 29, 2004, 09:29:

Can we all get alone please! Everything was dying down and this guy Jaime shows up with this very typical upper class, slime ball attitude.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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caslug says on Sep 29, 2004, 11:12:

Are we talking pass each other? No one is advocating paying "double" just for the sake of it. If you find a GOOD maid(doesn't steal, good worker, honest, etc.,) then you might want to pay her more(subjective) assuming that you can afford it. Treating them w/ respect should be a given. So if you can't afford to pay more, that's fine, just don't tell other people that can(like hollywood) that they shouldn't. A maid working for Donald Trump is going to make more than a maid working for me, nothing wrong w/ that.

Do middle/upper class colombian view a maid as a necessity or a luxury item? If you're struggling to makes end's meet, then of course you can't pay more, heck you problably shouldn't get a maid in the first place.

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elmodefoque says on Sep 29, 2004, 11:19:

In Colombia having a maid is more a status symbol, you could not possibly attend a party with well to do Colombians if you don’t also share stories about how lousy you maid is, is the standard conversation in these gathering. That Jamie guy must be the most popular guest., with all his stories.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 29, 2004, 11:26:

not a luxury but more like a necessity. When you're working hard 10-12 hours a day and your husband is doing the same, it's almost a necessity having some help around the house. In the States or in Europe it wouldn't be as important, since the household is much more mechanized and everybody uses a number of household appliances and machines to get the chores done fast and easy.
This is not the case in Colombia, however. Most middle-class families don't have microwaves or dishwashers, many don't have a washing machine much less dryers. Every chore takes the triple of the time and effort than it would take, say for example, here in Sweden. Then, having a live-in maid adds a security factor to your home. Day-care is not as conveniently organized or affordable as here, so children will need somebody to mind them when they are home from school or kindergarten. Cleaning a house takes much longer, and has to be done every day.
You can get by without hired help, of course, but if you have a good employment and a profession, it's not a good idea staying home and scrubbing the floors for the minimum wage or less when you can employ somebody else with less degrees to do that. At the same time, you are not only helping yourself, but also contributing to having more time for your family and being a less tired and harassed parent.
The benefits are enormous, even if paying the maid is an effort.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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caslug says on Sep 29, 2004, 11:55:

not a luxury.. Some people will make more money than others. So what's wrong "richer" people to WANT to pay more(10%, 50%, or 100% higer, etc.,). They(the rich) have just as much reason to pay more as other people(less rich) have to pay less. A maid that used to work for a rich person is not going to expect get the same wages WHEN working for a new employer who IS NOT AS RICH. So why use that excuse(spoiling them) to keep wages low? If some people want to pay better wages(to keep GOOD employees) nothing wrong w/ that either.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 29, 2004, 11:57:

Note to Desi Hey Desi, I just want to be clear that I wasn't even remotely referring to you when I mentioned the bitchy strata 11 crowd. I know that when you lived in Colombia it was very much as a middle-class Colombian and I respect that. My whole point above, however, is that I wish people would just stop telling ME that I'm committing some sort of travesty by paying people more than the bare minimum I could squeeze them for. PC said, that, and you, in essence, said that when you wrote, "You'll spoil them for life. They will never be able to work for anybody else after you took your pick and pack and returned to your rich home country again." That's just plain patronizing to speak of "spoiling" someone with an adequate salary like we're talking about giving a dog table scraps or something.

I'm a pauper compared to many of the wealthy Colombians I know who still pay their help $15,000 pesos a day just because they can, so don't ask me to feel sorry for them because their former maid would rather work for me.

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caslug says on Sep 29, 2004, 12:45:

Hollywood do you play 21? Because when I was playing in the Casinos, and the dealer is giving me winning hand after winning hand, I'll tip them a little-just like in Vegas, and I'm not a betting big(10-20K/hand) or tipping big (2-5k/tip) either. I'll do this throughout the night and the other players are looking at me like i'm a little bit crazy. BUT I RARELY see a Colombian do it, even when they are playing/winning much more than me (80k-100k/hand).

I think the cultural attitude towards "workers" are quite different in Colombia vs the states. I kinda understand it because cheap available labor is SOOO abundance. Which leads many colombian employers to take workers for granted.

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elmodefoque says on Sep 29, 2004, 12:54:

You hit it right on the head. Yes, most Colombians are heartless cheap bastards! Listen; here is how a Colombian thinks. I told you this once before but here it goes again. An upper class Colombian sees a foreign looking guy stranded in his jaguar and immediately offers assistance even giving him cash. The same guy sees a filthy Colombian woman with two kids next to her and infant in her arms begging for money, she will not get even 10 centavos.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 29, 2004, 12:55:

I don't gamble but I know what you mean Not a gambler, myself, but I know what you mean about tipping. I'll sometimes tip a Colombian cab driver an extra 1,000 or 2,000 on a good ride and they always seem shocked (but grateful).

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caslug says on Sep 29, 2004, 13:22:

tipping In Colombia(like the states) I'll tip when I receive good service and no tip for crappy service. In Cali I got VERY good service from drivers, dealers, waiters, etc., so I tip. But in CTG, the taxi drivers where constantly ripping me off(changing the fare or not give change back) so I didn't tip.

Elmo, I always thought that Colombians(rich or poor) are very generous with their family or friends. Maybe not so much w/ strangers or workers, but definitely family and friends. If this is the case, then they're not really cheap.

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litost says on Sep 29, 2004, 15:43:

Elmo obviously can't see beyond his childhood traumas, always inevitably blaming those heartless, elitist, white, arrogant, and everything else negative you can imagine, colombian upper class. He also doesn't mind stereotyping and making broad assumptions about everyone here, assuming that because someone is a foreigner, or has had the opportunity to go to college, or has lived abroad, we haven't had to struggle or don't deserve to enjoy those achievements.

I think the maid issue was summed up pretty well by Desi, although I think there's no problem in somebody wanting to pay them well above the average, good for them both... I also grew up and generally interact with other middle class colombians, and I can say it is absolutely false that maids are a "status symbol" or reserved only for those despicable upper classes. Many middle class homes have maids, it is normal in Colombia, there is very high unemployment and also many women with little education and a need for some money to take home to the kids. These women are generally treated well especially in middle class homes, and often become like part of the family. Yes, it's not the ideal job for anyone, but there is nothing shameful about it and they could be doing a lot worse, like starving, stealing, becoming prostitute, depending on an abusive male partner, etc. Of course there are bound to be cases of exploitation or abuses by the employers, but it is not unusual given they are a very vulnerable part of society, women with no money or education, but I wouldn't say that this "estrato 11" humiliating attitude is the norm in employer-maid relations.

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elmodefoque says on Sep 29, 2004, 16:58:

I come up with the crazies ideas, check this one out. Why not jus pick up your disgusting mess and you’re freaking damn spoiled brat’s kid’s mess and your repulsive spouse stinking mess and clean, iron it and put it away, yourself. You’ll built up a little sweat with all the work, you’ll look and feel better and your husband will be tempted to put you on all fours more frequently. You’ll be happy and he’ll be happy and you’ll have an additional $75 bucks a month in your pocket. Go out to the movies and restaurant.
As for those poor souls you worry so much about, those that will now be left with out those crumbs you throw at them, why not take that money the politicians are stealing and teach them a trade that will pay them enough money so they could live like human beings instead of living like animals with that wonderful maid salary.
I wish I could say that Colombians stuck it to me just when I was a kid, but guess what the elitist bastard continue to screw me over, now I can’t even go back to Colombia, legally.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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JamieJ says on Sep 30, 2004, 10:12:

For this Elmo guy, everyone you disagree with has a “typical upper class, slime ball attitude.�

For someone who promotes random violence, theft, and totalitarianism (people must do what you want not what they want), along with your humorless read (if it is not a joke with a bestiality theme in it I don’t get it) foul, hypocritical nature (please don’t make jokes about the unfortunate you interrupting my insults of the rich (defined as anyone who has views counter to Elmo)) sprinkled with inaccurate, tainted opinions I would consider any objection from you as a validation that I was right. For a grown man you harbor a lot of anger and hate. But the realties of the world and the laws of nature don’t change because you like to pound your bully fist and cry out slurs driven by ignorant misunderstandings.

You know little about me but you make baseless generalizations as quick as the insults you freely throw at strangers you know nothing of. Of course I am excluding the knowledge that comes from the book of Elmo your self-induced masterpiece of fiction about what is right and wrong and what to do about it.

Unlike you who determines that the worthy man is the one who has less in his pocket I defend against wrongs committed against anyone regardless of their dress, education and lifestyle. Since you don’t know who this “Jamie guy� is let me tell you a little about him, he would come to the defense of any innocent man attacked on the street. So maybe this is how we will meet you lashing your hate and violence towards the innocent and me putting a stop to it.

Now if you don’t mind I will be attending to a formal social gather where I will be mingling with the elite of high society Barranquilla and toasting this year’s winner of the best maid joke which will be followed by our annual “I Have A Maid I Must Be A King� award presentation sometimes referred to as “Carlos You Did What To The Maid… Ah Carlos That’s Funny� The big trophy as you know is the “The Starvation Wage Rate� Award sometimes referred to as the “If She Can Live Off It You’re Paying Her Too Damn Much� Award.
My maid is nominated for the shortest dress uniform. If she doesn’t win this year someone’s going to be losing their hem big time.

I was not suppose to be telling you about these functions but seeing that you having been spying on us and know of our ways I must come clean (now please understand Elmo I’m talking figuratively because of course I don’t clean that’s maids work). But you know what Elmo guy, I’m a fair, sensitive man I can always substitute the maid jokes that you find offensive with… no not with I love my donkey jokes but Elmo guy jokes. But what would be the challenge in that.

Jamie
Engage The Exotic - Colombian Women

Jamie

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 30, 2004, 10:20:

and about your crazy idea had you but read what I wrote you'd know that you're "crazy idea" was totally uncalled for. But you read just as selectively as you use the language responding to posts: you don't participate in any discussions at all, just promote your own ideas what's right or wrong. It's getting very old very fast, elmo.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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elmodefoque says on Sep 30, 2004, 10:26:

Hey Jaime guy, man, you got a bad case of diarrhea/churreria of the mouth, what the hell are you talking about, I’m a very busy guy at work and don’t have time to read all that.
Please just summit up.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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elmodefoque says on Sep 30, 2004, 10:31:

Mi querida desi, that was not directed toward you at all, I was just talking in general terms.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 30, 2004, 10:40:

elmo, that's ok. It's just it sounded very much as a reaction to my previous post about a middle-class Colombian family with small children and both parents working; how the fact of having a maid affects the quality of life in that familiar nucleus.

"if you have a good employment and a profession, it's not a good idea staying home and scrubbing the floors for the minimum wage or less when you can employ somebody else with less degrees to do that. At the same time, you are not only helping yourself, but also contributing to having more time for your family and being a less tired and harassed parent."

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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elmodefoque says on Sep 30, 2004, 11:12:

Desi, I like to add that I fully understand why the upper class elitist Colombians hate my ass, but I’m used to that. I represent the voice of those that are oppress and abused by them, and they get upset when some one speaks out. But the last thing I need is for American, Canadian, Europeans and others to dislike me too. I love to see you guys in Colombia, I’m hoping you could teach them on how to be a little compassionate toward the millions of other Colombians going hungry and suffering. And I know you guys know a lot about compassion, you don’t have people going hungry in your streets, the worst you see in NYC is drug addicts begging for money to buy drugs, they have plenty of places to go eat, but Colombian children don’t, they beg to stop hunger pains.
Desi one last request, from living in Colombia for so many years, do you think the Colombian elite is compassionate with the poor. Please go over what you remember seeing while in the streets of Colombia. One second you see a shinny brand new Mercedes go by and you tilt your head and see a filthy kid with his dirty little hands begging for a hand out. And please don’t say you see that in the USA too, because you don’t.
Now, tell me do you think these people (Colombian elite) are compassionate or is this the figment of my imagination?

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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oldbongo says on Sep 30, 2004, 11:33:

the stranger on the bus.. is you, elmo...

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caslug says on Sep 30, 2004, 12:08:

my two cent... Elmo, I think your example of NOT giving money to begger is a wrong way of measuring compassion. You can't expect everyone to be like Mother Theresa, and give there last cent and breath to the less fortunate. On the otherhad, if you have a rich employer that is paying crappy wages and treating his employee crappy, just BECAUSE they can. Then that is bad.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 30, 2004, 12:09:

about compassion elmo, no, I don't think the Colombian elite or oligarchy is especially compassionate. I don't however, see it as a typically Colombian phenomenon; it just cuts across more clearly when compared with the so much poverty. Compassion is a personality trait, sometimes people are born with it, sometimes its acquired. I'd like to call it empathy instead. When you can put yourself in another person's position, feel what the other person feels, only then you can feel compassion.
The world is not a very compassionate place; not here in Europe, nor in the States. We don't have starving people on our srteets, it's true, but that's because there's enough money around to care for the people who can't take care of themselves. We pay a lot of taxes for that purpose, and yes, there is a social conscience inbred in our genes that makes us vulnerable in front of misery and poverty. We have not always been a "rich" country either; there was a time when even the Swedish children starved, but that is another story, told by a different campfire.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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elmodefoque says on Sep 30, 2004, 12:33:

Desi I agree with you in many of points but I think Colombia does have enough money to feed the poor. I really don’t think Colombia is a dirt poor country like many think. I’m sure Colombia has far more wealth than Cuba, but you never see little Cuban children begging for something to eat, unless Fidel is hiding them someplace

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one. CURRAMBA, EL MEJOR VIVIDERO DEL MUNDO!

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oldbongo says on Sep 30, 2004, 13:01:

no cold rationale needed.. either you got it or you lost it

most colombians elmo describes have lost it

most cubans got it, canadians, americans, europeans,people.

some europeans like to call it "social consciense inbred"

because they are far removed from the daily realities that

provoke feelings of gut compassion, and it makes for a convenient

soap box.you don't have to be mother teresa to recognize need,

and to respond,.."each in his own way"..in this way, only, can

places like colombia educate itself that a compassionate society

is a better one than has existed in colombia for 500 years of
factionalismo.

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poco says on Sep 30, 2004, 22:55:

Jamie about maids Jamie must have vast knowledge about the maid situation,, because it is mostly true. Notice his comment about "not wanting to be a maid".. well,,, get your new wife over to the United States and she will need to learn FAST how to live w/o a full time maid.

Upper Class only have maids,,, listen,,, school teachers can have maids,, a neighbor and his wife,, both school teachers,, one daugher,, and a full time maid. That girl,, when she grows up,, will have spent her life looking at someone else do the work.

Start over paying maids,, and your neighbors maid thinks she is underpaid,, trouble for you,,, and for what,, so you can be looked upon as a stupid gringo? or worse? Everytime I see someone making statements that apply to their culture,, and not Colombian Culture,, I think that person is out of touch with the Colombian way of life or are attempting to impose their culture on someone else.

That being said,, I'd never,, ever,, have a maid.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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