How Do You Manage

Haddeman says on Apr 17, 2009, 15:44:

Some eminent psychologist explained there are 4 phases we go through when we move to unfamilar places.1.elation,excitement about the new adventure,2.clinical depression,frustration,3.A gradual coming to terms with the new life and if you make it that far ,4.acceptence and living a fairly normal life.
I am somewhere between 3 and 4 after 3 years here .
The irritations certainly exist but you have to accept it is a case of when in Rome,or Envigado in my case.
PS Desi many years ago in London I had a delightful Finnish girlfriend called Riita from Helsinki.She was the au pair of a famous Finnish rally driver,I think Penti Arrikula,she wouldn't be your sister by any chance,
Kippis

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 17, 2009, 16:02:

I had certainly reached level 4 when I lived there, after all those years, but I have become desadapted after I moved away. Now there's a lot of things that irritate me and yet when I arrive in Cali it's coming home. I guess it'll be different this time, I'm so much older now and I won't be living there more than max 5 months a a time. This thing about non PC jokes is just one of them. (I used to tell those jokes myself...now I can't stand them any longer). Another thing that bothers me is the way my female friends act towards their male friends...I think they are being too solicitous, too accommodating, too catering. I don't mind having male friends stop by, grab a beer, eat lunch, whatever, but all this bending backwards just to please some GUY is beyond me. Didn't do it when young, won't do it now either. Don't get me wrong, I'm a friendly and hospitable woman, but all that sniveling makes me sick.

Haha, no, I don't have any sisters called Riitta. I have two, Paula and Marja, both solid matrons of middle age in Finland, married with children. I have a cuz in Litchfield, though, married to an Irishman.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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callejero says on Apr 17, 2009, 16:04:

Interesting question - one aspect is to consider the source and context because, as I'm sure you know, many Colombians routinely poke fun at whatever is "different" about someone - gordo, flaco, negro, bajito, mocho, etc. Aside from these instances, however, in the many cases when there is true ignorance, intolerance and/or malice, I personally think it is impossible for someone of good conscience to avoid being irritated as an initial reaction. But "upset" is another thing - my own approach is to treat those incidents as sociological/psychological case studies.

For example, when a friend came to see me last month she told me about her conversation with the taxi driver where he explained that if he were in charge, he would put all blacks in the street and steamroll them into the pavement. Whats more - I saw that taxi driver and he is a brown dude who definitely has some afro-Colombian in his gene pool. But she and I had a very long and interesting conversation about racism and racial views in Colombia, as well as issues of psychology and self-image. It was an informative and enlightening conversation. So that's my strategy anyway.

"I'm no f****ing implicator."

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Haddeman says on Apr 17, 2009, 16:26:

Most of these racist,sexist comments are based on ignorance and stupidity.As i have said before 92% of the people in the world are mere munchins and bless them,they know no better.
Desi's point about over accomodating women is very true,after years are looking after myself i am perfectly capable of cooking a small snack,wearing the appropiate clothes or asking for a second helping rather than being asked numerous times,9 on my last visit,if i wanted more this or that.Luckily Mrs Haddeman is the opposite and expects me to do everything for her,as she feels it is a my priveledg to be married to her.
Digressing ,I fondly remember being picked up at the station by your cousin Riita in a rally car and her driving off across Berkshire at great velocity as through it was a frozen Finnish lake ,Kippis

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 17, 2009, 16:44:

Mongo, I already said that. Because I need to come home.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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mranderson says on Apr 17, 2009, 17:24:

It doesn´t bother me at all but probably cause my spanish is not good enough to really understand or be affected by "non pc" jokes. Foul language in general in spanish doesn´t mean that much to me. Actually, I think it´s kind of funny.

Whenever I feel frustrated or even a little depressed (homesick), I just turn on olympica and that seems to do the trick. Also going for a moto ride through a windy mountain road does wonders.

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kenblanquito says on Apr 17, 2009, 18:03:

I find that the irritations do not go away but ones tolerance towards certain things can change from day to day, dependent on what is going on.
I try to achieve a sensible level of control over some irritants, for example when people try to do the short-notice or spontaneous drop-in, normally the door is not answered and my Colombian wife is not impressed with that sort of thing either. I try to avoid making more than one important appointment per day because invariably when there are 2 or more commitments, somebody will mess up and be late, thus making you late for the second appointment etc. Fortunately, most of our circle of friends do not make sexist or racist remarks, so we do not need to worry about that. As for racism itself, there are members of my political family who display that characteristic but now I will stand my ground on that in my own Spanglish way. For that reason, I became a far stronger supporter of Obama during the election saga and also spoke about the relative racial equality in the UK. Why did I love London? My answer "the rich cultural diversity" and all that went with it! In that way, far better than Colombia I would say. Just to wind them up and eventually the conversation would change to some other topic. Some Colombian women are fascinated by the fact that I can and do use the washing machine, cooker, mop, broom, go shopping on my own (as I prefer doing that to my wife who hates it) etc. I hate the attitude of a lot of Colombian men as far as their definitions of a "woman's role" is concerned. I like putting them to shame, especially the lazier ones in terms of sharing domestic duties.
I find that a break from this environment from time to time is very beneficial, in order to recharge the "tolerance" batteries. To clear the head of the chaos!
Desi, if you intend spending only 5 months at a time here, I would not worry too much; you will cope!

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Gator says on Apr 17, 2009, 18:08:

Number 4 in Haddeman's post, especially if you delete everything after "acceptance."

For me the Serenity Prayer has always helped: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the one from the other."

"Bene, cum Latine nescias, nolo manus meas in te maculare" .

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adrimm (Moderator) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 17, 2009, 18:29:

utopiacowboy says on Apr 17, 2009, 19:28:

When I go back to Canada I really have limited patience with all things Canadian. I'd go frigging nuts there. Gotta leave after a week or two or become a mass murderer.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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mranderson says on Apr 17, 2009, 19:31:

I know what you mean utopia. When I go back to the states I don´t have any patience for the way people drive.

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Portena1 says on Apr 17, 2009, 20:23:

Well, Gator, I suppose the serenity prayer might work for Desi if she believed in God(s). :)

I would suggest that Desi model the behavior she would like to see. Change the subject if someone is making racist remarks (look extraordinarily bored - not irritated), set an example for others. And, keep in mind that in the long run feeling irritated and angry about the behavior of others isn't worth it because there can be stress-related health consequences.

No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings - Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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billyb says on Apr 17, 2009, 20:54:

Do you have a weapon that will penetrate a wall?

http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifle_82.aspx

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Portena1 says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:04:

Who do you wish they were listening to, johnny2008?

No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings - Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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Portena1 says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:12:

That's funny! I like Men Without Hats and INXS. But when was the last time Men Without Hats made an album? Are they still around? I have a vague memory of the Safety Dance from when I was a young teen.

No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings - Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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baby jesus!! says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:17:

Desi,dont sweat the small stuff
billy,we need to talk.
adrimm listens to skinny puppy

Too many gringos messing with lower estrato chicas. The cultural differences are way too huge -- These same gringos wouldn't mess with some project living mami or trailer trash back home in the States... WHY O WHY do it in Colombia?!?!!?-rhydewithdis

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Portena1 says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:20:

I thought they were Australian...

No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings - Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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billyb says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:21:

KYlie is aussie, MWH are canucks.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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adrimm (Moderator) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:22:

billyb says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:24:

Like johnny said, wtf is the difference? 'cept that the 'nucks are pasty.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Portena1 says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:24:

What about Led Zeppelin?

No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings - Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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billyb says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:25:

are they pasty, or do you mean are they brits?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:26:

then again, it's not like brit and pasty are mutually exclusive, right?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:35:

Used to love them cornish pastys when i lived in england, although they couldn't hold a candle to that culinary delight of chips and scraps smothered with pea soup.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:37:

"Colombian fibre laying technicians"

is that a euphemism for wholewheat arepa eating colombians taking a dump?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Portena1 says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:51:

billyb, I thought Johnny2008 might like to listen to Led Zeppelin regardless of their being pasty or Brits. Always classic.

No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings - Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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billyb says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:53:

Hey no argument from me, zepp's in my top 5. How about that under appreciated classic, Trampled Underfoot?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Portena1 says on Apr 17, 2009, 21:59:

All of their songs are good. :)
Kashmir is one of my favorites.

So, much for helping Desi cope.

I hope she's gotten some good tips so far...

No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings - Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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goin_south says on Apr 17, 2009, 22:30:

Desi: " noticed during my last visit in Colombia three years ago that I had much less tolerance for that BS now than when I used to live there."

Desi... We All Here on PBH have tried to keep you raw in these regards... but, I see we have failed.

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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billyb says on Apr 17, 2009, 22:34:

GS, be kind, sometimes memories are all we have.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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manINred says on Apr 17, 2009, 22:53:

NO!

"Australia, Canadia, same shit innit?"

Wrong, typical loutish and pompous brit ;)

"My time to start planning my semi-permanent move to Colombia is drawing closer and my mind is filled with doubts."

That's good then isn't it? If it is only semi-permanent, then you can make the ratios tilt in favour of hte land of your choice, no?

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billyb says on Apr 17, 2009, 22:55:

"Kashmir is one of my favorites"

Ahh, yes.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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billyb says on Apr 17, 2009, 22:56:

" loutish and pompous brit ;)

Isn't that a double redundancy?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 18, 2009, 02:05:

Yes, thank you all who took time to seriously consider my question,
To billy a a gold medal and a cerificate of honour for having ruined all my three threads that are running. Or were.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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dwmte7 says on Apr 18, 2009, 05:24:

well my most dear maarit. i'm a late arrival at your thread so i wont draw attention to what's left of a good start but ends a sad finish.

when you move back, since you're long since groomed your colombian ship's legs, you'll do absolutely fine. you will be welcomed by those new to your acquaintance and those old friends and family who have loved you for all these years. i don't think you'll be running into the nitwits that base their day's dialogues on sex tourism, a lot of back biting and prattle about nothing, what to do with a recalcitrant novia/o etc. your life will be civil and proper, from the gate. to even idly entertain the idea that those folks and that nonsense will be a part of your life is to seek religious advise from the hadas.

relax my dear. if it is your choice to make beloved colombia your permanent home, it's because your core being knows it is the best choice and one in which you will find warmth, family and comfort. relax...you're moving forward just fine.

douglas

patriarch

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Gator says on Apr 18, 2009, 06:08:

Desi, same barrio as before?

"Bene, cum Latine nescias, nolo manus meas in te maculare" .

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 18, 2009, 06:28:

Thanks Douglas, yes, I believe I can cope with most everything for the half-year I'll be satying at a time. It'll still be a couple of years before I can start doing that, but the time is closing in on me and I feel that I have to make some kind of decision about the house I have in Cali.

My kids are not thrilled; they'd like me living here permanently, but this has been something I've been looking forward so long that I just don't want to give up that dream without seeing if it would work for me. It's just I have changed since I last lived in Colombia, I'm much, much more soft-skinned and environmental concerned. Cali has also changed since I left and I don't see all the changes (almost none of them) as positive, One example is the transformation of the traditional, lovely near-north barrios of Centenario, Juanambú and Granada into some kind of high-rise, touristy zone with expensive restaurants and cold concrete where there used to be spacious mansions and lavishly ornamented turn-of-the century homes with gardens and backyards filled with night fragrance of camias and jasmins.

Gator, just across the Fifth, a few hundred meters south,

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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gamm2 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 18, 2009, 06:28:

mranderson says on Apr 18, 2009, 06:50:

Desi, sounds like you´re not going to like it very much in colombia. You have changed a lot, cali has changed for the worse (in your opinion) and you´re kids want you to stay home. Do you regularly go to colombia for vacation?

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Lowell says on Apr 18, 2009, 06:54:

When we go back to somewhere that we've been before, most often things have changed. It can be dissapointing. I've experienced this a few times in the States before I left as I checked out old haunts. However, that's life. Too me ,now the people of world aren't as friendly /warm /open as they used to be. I now plan my trips into town when there are less people out and about. Can you view local Colombian news and other programs?

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 18, 2009, 07:02:

dwmte7 says on Apr 18, 2009, 07:16:

that is pretty accurate, darloup.......difinitely been there and done that....in so many of the places l've lived and worked around the world. some of them never got past faze one. didn't even deliver on that! like lagos nigeria. and uganda. pity. casablanca was a bust as well. there's more, but i left them behind years ago.

i still go through a lot of ups and downs in colombia...even after all these years....seeing folks doing things, speaking and acting in ways that posit no gain and show how lame and hurtful folks can be.

patriarch

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 18, 2009, 07:30:

Wow, Douglas, you're a true "expat!".

Personally, I've lived more years outside France than in France, so I also know the feeling...

1) "elation,excitement about the new adventure" So true. It's a time of discovery. The slate is wiped clean and you end up as a "sponge": Absorbing as much as you can without any preconceived ideas.
2) "clinical depression,frustration". Then comes the inevitable question: "What on earth am I doing in this country"...
3) "A gradual coming to terms with the new life and if you make it that far". That's the hardest phase. Are you living this life because you HAVE to or because you CHOSE to? Getting a sense of priorities is primordial during this phase
4) "acceptence and living a fairly normal life." Again it all depends whether it's passive acceptance or not. On this subject, there is wonderful help on this site: http://mardukperu.blogspot.com/2007/12/la-vaca-libro-y-audiolibro-exce...

I REALLY advise anyone to download (and read) the PDF file about "La vaca" ;-)

Better to have tried and failed than having regrets all your life about what you MIGHT have missed

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whitewidow says on Apr 18, 2009, 08:51:

yeah, brian wants to get there faster, so he does not miss out on the ST action ;)

I'm no doper! I just play one on TV.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 18, 2009, 09:29:

Mr. Anderson, no I don't, Colombia is too far and the trip is too expensive for me to take every year. I usually go to see my mum and my sisters in Finland on the vacations, I make shorter trips within Europe and try to get to Colombia every three years or so. This is going to be one of the longer intervals, since I have just bought a cottage and moved to live out in the sticks and am buying a lot of stuff for my new home. Also my grandkids are just babies, I want to bond with them and be around to help my daughter as much as possible. I want to take care of my loved ones now when they need me; thre'll be time (I hope) later for me to indulge in my own designs.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 18, 2009, 09:31:

I believe it's absolutely necessary for me to be able to go ahead with my plan. If I don't like it there, if I can't re-adapt, I can always come "home". I want to keep my options open.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 18, 2009, 09:36:

dwmte7 says on Apr 18, 2009, 10:07:

ya know, maarit, it's oft times a bad idea to cast out personal thoughts--like these--to cyber chat lines as you get so much feed back, none of which can ever reflect yours...only a bit here and there and in part...because no one is you and sit's in exactly the same reference point as do you , nor has the family ties, home and relations as do you.

i think you're rock solid in yourself and will do just fine in your direction and plans. you certainly have my support and mine doesn't come predicated on you following my lead or my ideas and feelings.

d

patriarch

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dwmte7 says on Apr 18, 2009, 10:16:

aww, brians....i just took it off the tip of your tongue. their your words spun through my mouth.

d

patriarch

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lpdiver says on Apr 18, 2009, 10:38:

You guys quit swapping spit and get a room already!!!

ts

Remember what the monkey says, "Fuck money it's free"

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dwmte7 says on Apr 18, 2009, 10:49:

ow!

patriarch

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 18, 2009, 10:51:

I'm reading about the cow. I don't think I have a cow. I only gave some little calves. I killed one two days ago when I assembled a wheelbarrow (I can't! I'm not good at these type of things).

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 18, 2009, 10:56:

dwmte7 says on Apr 18, 2009, 10:58:

what the hell are you two talking about?

patriarch

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 18, 2009, 11:01:

Hey Douglas, it helps to follow a thread...

Read this and help Desi about moving or not: http://mardukperu.blogspot.com/2007/12/la-vaca-libro-y-audiolibro-exce...

The PDF document is enough... The audio file is the icing on the cake.

Better to have tried and failed than having regrets all your life about what you MIGHT have missed

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La_Huella says on Apr 18, 2009, 14:21:

I've only had one experience like the one you mentioned Desi. It was right after the elections and I mentioned that I had voted for Obama. Some idiot said "pero tu votaste por un NEGRO?????" I just looked at him like the moron he was, didn't even say anything. Then I ignored him for the rest of the night. Most people here in BOG are fortunately not like that, maybe Cali is still in the dark ages.

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dwmte7 says on Apr 18, 2009, 14:47:

thanks, darloup....i'll pass. that would challenge me and it's saturday afternoon and i'm already ass erect in front of the tv warming up for sunday, which, except for taking the family to mass, is tv all day long. see what happened to a good mind after tv..................

patriarch

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billyb says on Apr 18, 2009, 21:42:

"To billy a a gold medal and a cerificate of honour for having RUINED all my three threads that are running. Or were."

Are you this dramatic in real life?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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dwmte7 says on Apr 19, 2009, 07:42:

brother.....only if it gets your attention. no attention? no drama.

but i'll singlehandedly capitulate for any of the guilty, if i can hear how my kid's coffee house is.......please.

patriarch

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billyb says on Apr 19, 2009, 14:52:

"if i can hear how my kid's coffee house is.......please"

Douglas, sent you my capsule review of the place via email to you today.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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dwmte7 says on Apr 19, 2009, 16:12:

i read that, buddy, thanks, again, a million. it was great.

patriarch

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dwmte7 says on Apr 20, 2009, 05:13:

you're right sapa......take it steady as she goes. it's all good and colombia's no exception. she has wonderful aspects and some damn gloomy ones as well. pick and choose. if it don't work out as planned, folks don'[t have anchors tied to their ass, they can move back/on, easily.

d

patriarch

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aztec says on Apr 20, 2009, 07:10:

"if it don't work out as planned, folks don'[t have anchors tied to their ass, they can move back/on, easily." dwmte7

I do think that is the secret. Just don't burn the bridges behind you when you move to Colombia. Always leave an avenue of escape or return.

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Peter (Moderator) (Trustee board) (Dev team) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 20, 2009, 07:48:

Peter (Moderator) (Trustee board) (Dev team) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 20, 2009, 07:49:

Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 20, 2009, 07:50:

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 20, 2009, 10:25:

I'm not even considering a full-time residency in Colombia. It won't probably be more than 4-6 months every year. I don't feel like having to go through all the rigamarole for a permanent visa or cedula de extranjería there. So, if it doesn't work out I just sell the house and be done with that. But, I'm definitely going to try that option, before I decide to retire permanently here in Sweden or in Finland or in Spain, for example.

I'm not really even asking if I should or should not, I know Colombia or let's just say Cali inside out and it feels like coming home every time the plane starts descending towards Cali with the Farallones on my left and the sun setting in the Pacific Ocean right behind those mountains, the lush greenery of the valley in front of me, the Cauca River meandering amidst the sugarfields and the haze of cane fires permeating the late evening air. It's not just happiness I feel, it's euphoria.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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whitewidow says on Apr 20, 2009, 10:32:

jeez, sounds nice. i wish people would post more pics of cali....... maybe one of the most neglected areas of colombia here on pbh.

I'm no doper! I just play one on TV.

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dwmte7 says on Apr 20, 2009, 11:05:

for good reason.

patriarch

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 20, 2009, 11:48:

Yes, Douglas, you were saying?

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Lisa Zee says on Apr 20, 2009, 13:07:

Desi, I have been thinking of moving there also, but I can`t make it happen, there are so many things I would have to leave behind, including my son, and the beach. If I go it has to be for good, and I am afraid; maybe when I am older :)

Vive la vida y deja vivir!.

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dwmte7 says on Apr 20, 2009, 16:07:

desi.......a terse remark, i admit. and that, based on only two times i went to/through cali. it was hot, dry, dusty and windy. which arent nacessarily high points i seek out. i'm more of an outskirts of medallo kind of person....way out in the outskirts. norhing more.

d

patriarch

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Lisa Zee says on Apr 20, 2009, 17:09:

D: Desi is describing "El Valle Del Cauca". As I said before, I spent a great deal of time in Cali, my mother, took us all 7 and my dad, every holiday, she used to say: " de Cali al cielo, y del cielo, un huequito para mirar a Cali" she must be looking at Cali.

I personaly think it is way too hot, even if they talk about "las brisas de Cali." I hate heat, today here in S, California not far from the beach is over 90!!, and it is only April!

Vive la vida y deja vivir!.

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dwmte7 says on Apr 21, 2009, 05:36:

that was in the news here in florida, lisa....temperatures hovering around 100 from san diego to san clemente and big sur. nothing like it since 1927, they said.

dw

patriarch

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Lisa Zee says on Apr 21, 2009, 15:38:

Yeah and I am in bed with a bad back for almost 2 weeks! it sucks!

Vive la vida y deja vivir!.

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dwmte7 says on Apr 21, 2009, 15:48:

i'm sorry about that.....hope you pick up soon. need a good chiropractor? know several for about 30 yrs.
douglas

patriarch

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Lisa Zee says on Apr 21, 2009, 15:51:

I was told they would make worse?!

Vive la vida y deja vivir!.

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goin_south says on Apr 21, 2009, 17:18:

once they also thought the world was flat.

Liza: "I was told they would make worse"

Lisa... you think almost every Olympic Athlete would be using Chiropractors on their sports training teams??? if it made them... WORSE? jus in case you need a lil help thinking this one through.... uhhh... nnaaawwwhhh... You can figure it out.

And, if it makes you feel any better (pun intended), a Colombiano is the president of Parker Chiropractic College in Dallas.

Actually, Lisa... by survey of patients, chiropractic care gets a 95% satisfaction rate. I like those odds.

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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Lisa Zee says on Apr 21, 2009, 18:28:

Don`t take personal, I am sure they do wonders, but I have had very, very bad experiences.

Vive la vida y deja vivir!.

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Leeroy says on Apr 21, 2009, 19:17:

A nasty paradox attached to liberal, PC-views is that of how to deal with intolerance.

On the one hand, it seems wrong to be a cultural imperialist (i.e. "How I think is the best, and anyone who disagrees with my preconceived norms/rules/expectations is wrong") - but on the other hand, it also feels wrong and contradictory to be complacent about things like racism - when our western cultural training has taught us to fight against such things so vehemently.

One thing that made me consistently grumpy about my ex-fiancee was her insufferable condemnation of "los indios", or, more normally, "los putos indios". Anyone who had visible native South American genetics, and had caused her some discomfort or inconvenience, would later have their (supposed) incompetence (at best) or inherent evil (at worst) blamed on being an "indio". As ostensibly proud as she was of being Colombian, she very rarely spoke very highly of the Colombian sub-cultures who could be arguably called the most Colombian, ethnically speaking.

She, it might be mentioned, was far from being white and/or European looking herself. Her second surname was "Amaya", one that did not occur to me as being characteristically Iberian in origin - something that I once pointed out to her (and led to me sleeping on the sofa for a couple of nights!).

There are many ugly aspects of Colombian society - ones which far transcend that one specific example above. But, then, there are ugly aspects of every society. I have absolutely no idea how to find a compromise with my own (liberal-ish) views with Colombia's more conservative and closed-minded ones - they clash all the time. I learnt something from my dealings with her.

I have good friends here now, ones who I would do anything for (and I believe would do anything for me - well, within reason!) - yet ones who, owing to their Catholicism, openly and strongly condemn homosexuality. We don't discuss it. I don't judge them on their homophobia, and they don't judge me on my complacence/acceptance of it. Put simply, where there might be conflict, I have enough sense to avoid clashing ideologies with people unnecessarily. I don't laugh at racist jokes, but nor do I rabidly condemn them (or the people that make them) as they arise. I let it wash over.

This isn't a result of any powerful and poignant moral stance on my part, it is simply a mixture of pragmatism and laziness. I avoid pointless fights, and am happier as a result of it. In Scandanavia, I am sure, I would be burnt at the stake for my complacence - but here I am happy, which is the most important thing of all.

Leeroy out :)

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 21, 2009, 21:02:

In North America, if your great-great grandmother gave Geronimo a blow job, you're proud of it but back in South America it's a shameful thing to be part indigenous.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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billyb says on Apr 21, 2009, 21:08:

They're only proud of it because it means they can cash in on the casino bucks nowadays.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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La_Huella says on Apr 21, 2009, 21:54:

Leeroy where do you find these retards? Just about everybody I meet in Bogota is MORE liberal and open minded and LESS racist than the people I know in the US and Canada. Am I just lucky or are you just totally UNlucky???

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Leeroy says on Apr 21, 2009, 23:05:

"Leeroy where do you find these retards?"

And right there, you skillfully avoid any future meaningful discourse between us :)

Unlucky of me, I guess....

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Leeroy says on Apr 21, 2009, 23:18:

Quite.

I certainly am psuedo-intellectual, and (in a moment of meta-awareness) probably a pretentious one, at that.

PC? Not black and white - yes and no.

Liberal? In some ways but not in others - I'm libertarian.

Snob? Definitely.

Not to worry, Mongo, you can put me on "ignore" and never be bothered by my posts again. Assuming you haven't already, of course. Until that time, the first beer is on me.

Leeroy

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Leeroy says on Apr 21, 2009, 23:24:

What's your beer of choice then?

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Leeroy says on Apr 21, 2009, 23:31:

I'm located in La Candelaria. The tienda on my corner sells Heineken. I just had a Pilsen, and reminded myself that I am not a fan - a Heiney would have been better,

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gatogris says on Apr 21, 2009, 23:35:

Sometimes exploration is as close as as a walk to the garden.

It will be fraught, complicated by memory and the dreams of change we all entertain and give up on and sometimes, in mostly small ways now, work for. And yet, in a certain slant of light, a certain sound or scent or type of silence, in a piece of a heart that was once yours and still is, there will be winged slivers of moments that come back through time to revisit you, to roost.

In all travelers, even in the most deliberately coarse, there lives the incorrigible romantic, the one who would see the world from a different angle and understand its merrily skewed nature, celebrate its weird otherness with no regret.

The solitary animal, the one that takes a walk in the night for no reason but to breath the new air and look up at the new sky.

There will be in you a little moral outrage, a little xenophobia, and perhaps some boredom and exasperation that comes from knowing a family member too well. But the country is still young, as you know best of all of us, and these halting half-measures in the world of people are not all there is.

So you will find yourself enmeshed between the euphoria, made of a soul's longtime companion found in a place, and your undying sense of injustice perpetuated, found in a people born of just such a place, and you will gnaw on it, worry it, write about it. And in the end there will be no solution, no dissolving of one into the other.

So it will be there, between the two, that you will find yourself, back and forth, half and half, fully human.

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Leeroy says on Apr 21, 2009, 23:38:

Fair enough mongo - how about Club Colombia? :)

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Leeroy says on Apr 21, 2009, 23:39:

oh - and gatogris, poetically written...

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Leeroy says on Apr 21, 2009, 23:43:

As I said, the first will be on me. The second and third will have to be negotiated, however...

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La_Huella says on Apr 22, 2009, 06:23:

That was a serious question Leeroy. Why on earth would you tolerate someone that close to you if they really were straight up racist? I cut people like that out of my life without thinking twice. It could be my own mother, I wouldn't care.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 22, 2009, 10:48:

Leeroy. yes it is a paradox. That's where I stand too, part of me celebrating the diversity, the cultural autonomy, the beuaty and the worth of it; another part entrenched in my own set of values and priorities, the paradigms of my upbringing, my society, my education, my people. It only gets worse over the years. When I was twenty it didn't seem to be a problem: embracing a totally different culture with open heart of a very young person and let it grow inside until it became normal, natural and well....almost normative.

At this time it will have to be a sustainable compromise: accepting the good with the bad, the beauty with the ugliness, the lovable with the loathsome. The brightest light brings out the deepest shadows.

My friends in Colombia know my mind and my thought; they know my commitment but also that there are things that I have a very hard time to stomach. I will have to follow Leeroy's example: turn away when people make racist jokes, sexist jokes, despective remarks when referring not just people with a different shade of skin, but also and even more to people that are poor, struggling, isolated. It's difficult when some of these people have been your friends for 30 years; you grew out of it but your friends didn't.

I get a litttle more breathing space in Colombia for being a gringa; I'm not expected to think and behave in the same way as locals. I'm allowed a little eccentricity: to feel bad about the kids begging at street light at 11 o'clock at night (no, I don't believe all of them are little delinquents and professional beggars with parents that have plenty of dough stashed away) is okay. (After all she's European, she can't really understand how this society works).

Leeroy, no, we're slackers here in Scandinavia too. We all make our lives as comfortable as possible.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 22, 2009, 10:56:

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 22, 2009, 11:07:

Loupe, for my people in Cali the difference is minimal, basically none. Europeans are also gringos, not just US Americans and Canadians, Australians too. Come to think of it, Spaniards and Italians are not gringos, everybody from Middle East is a Turk and every Asian is a Chino.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 22, 2009, 11:14:

Gato wrote a damn fine post too. Very philosophical, very poetic, very deep.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 22, 2009, 11:18:

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 22, 2009, 11:20:

That's my theory too. It's also because Spain is the Madre patria. And Italians...well, they're just Italians. Anywhere. Sapito that make you proud?

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 22, 2009, 11:27:

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 22, 2009, 11:53:

I had a very nice cartoon about a Scandinavian hitch-hiker in Italy...but it was a little naughty one so I couldn't have posted it here anyway, even if I still had it. But it didn't confirm the fact above.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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aztec says on Apr 22, 2009, 12:49:

Desideria, my wife and I are also in a state of mind where 5 months(less than 6) each year in Colombia is perfect. Staying beyond the 6 months creates many different residency/tax problems. After exploring moving to Colombia full time even putting a down payment on a house we discovered that it is not easy. Why not have the best of both worlds. You are positioned in two beautiful countries that should provide a lifestyle close to heaven.

On the matter of racism, I must admit surprise when it was directed at my wife in the States. It was the first time experiencing it and it infuriated me. Our initial reaction was to fight back but we soon learned that it is not our problem. It is the other persons problem. Unless it actually interfered with our lives we just chalked it up to lack of sophistication and education.

In my wifes case most of the racism she experienced was directed at her from American born Blacks. To say the least, we were prepared for some reaction from Whites but it never happened. On the contrary, after getting to know her they loved her. She has been a good ambassador for Colombia. I must assume that was because we were in a University community with people from all over the world.

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dwmte7 says on Apr 23, 2009, 14:04:

startled is one way of putting it....alarmed, is more accurate.

what on earth has happened.....a grain...nay, a morsel of culture has descended upon this thread....waxing poetic and intellectual by members of our rangy family. in one thread!

gato, and leeroy....gonna have to keep my eyes on you two. you are both capable of disrupting the entire gene pool here. and we can't have that...now can we?

so, please take note that you've been given notice and all eyes are upon you.

oh, and by the way, thanks for the distraction, it's been a long time coming.
d

patriarch

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 23, 2009, 14:36:

Lisa Zee says on Apr 23, 2009, 15:21:

kat: estabas muy perdida ;))))
There will be many things that will be hard to accept when I move back, one is how you can not avoid loud music : cumbia, merengue, salsa, regeton ( I dislike that one) all day long!!, I love music, but only if we have a party, I enjoy soft, new age and classical.. People drink too much, my family does, and they think you are not having fun if you are not drunk?!.
You grow apart from your culture, and the things that you loved when you were there become annoying. I know there are so many wonderful things that I miss from Colombia when I am here.

Vive la vida y deja vivir!.

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La_Huella says on Apr 23, 2009, 15:38:

I just don't get why anybody would think Colombia is MORE racist than anywhere else. I think it's about the same as everywhere else I've been, there are a few idiots but most people aren't racist.

As far as people drinking too much, THERE I agree with you.

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 23, 2009, 15:42:

dwmte7 says on Apr 23, 2009, 16:20:

kat......that's what my oldest daughter told me when i told her to 'turn that damn music down'..........."dad, if it's too loud, you're too old."

patriarch

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Lisa Zee says on Apr 23, 2009, 16:45:

Well... I like it "really loud" if it is like "Pink Floyd" and we are not disturbing anyone. But in Colombia, you 'have to' listen to it, in the taxis, busetas, the streets, the worse are laud neighbors. Yes we are getting older and wiser :))))

"Youth is wasted on the young"

Vive la vida y deja vivir!.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 23, 2009, 21:01:

I have no problem with the drinking part. people here drink twice as much as Colombians. ´The people I spend my time with in Colombia are not drinkers and they get ridiculously drunk on little aguardiente at parties. I both drink more and tolerate more alcohol than they and yet I'm not a heavy drinker either.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Lisa Zee says on Apr 23, 2009, 21:31:

I don`t like drunks, the ones that repeat the same story, over and over, and the ones that still listen to "Los Romanceros" and still cry singing along, I have a sister in-law, that is stuck in the 60`s, with all that romantic crap, LOL

Desi do you drink Aguardiente?, that is agua-ardiente!!!!☹

Vive la vida y deja vivir!.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 24, 2009, 13:37:

Yeah, I can down a few blanco del valle, sin azucar. No too many, that stuff is great in small amounts, but like all heavily flavoured alcoholic drinks gives you a really nasty headache. It's not that ardiente, lisa, it's only what...34% alcohol. I don't like getting drunk either, not my thing.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Lisa Zee says on Apr 24, 2009, 15:20:

"it's only what...34% alcohol." only? so what is strong, I don`t drink, so I don`t know. Sin azucar? all that alcohol turns into sugar.

Vive la vida y deja vivir!.

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 24, 2009, 15:31:

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 24, 2009, 23:52:

Nobody drinks aquavit any longer, except on national holidays like midsummer or christmas. I can have a couple of shots at a Christmas dinner, but not more. I wonder if my Colombian family or friends consider me a drinker because I like to have a couple of bottles of tinto or white around the house to dinners with friends?

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 24, 2009, 23:56:

dwmte7 says on Apr 25, 2009, 07:27:

i was taken by the drinking in switzerland. up in the alps, the road workers would take their first morning break about 8 am and hang out in the gast haus across from my studio. the workers would drink a bottle--maybe two--of beer...those snap top liter (i think) bottles. then during the day, they have a couple of more breaks like that. you can drink and drive there. if i drank one of those liter bottles, i'd be a little loose. two up to six, would kill me.

i actually preferred a drink called 'cafe trash' which is coffee and schnapps. real schnapps (pear, apple, cherry) none of that colored rubbish.

d

patriarch

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