How can teenagers avoid going in the army?

Medellin Traveler says on Feb 21, 2008, 21:31:

The army will make a man out of him. He's already trying to run away from his duties, what's next? All citizens must contribute to making Colombia a better place for all of Colombians alike. See your neighborhood Paraco for advice and direction, bring money.

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 21, 2008, 21:33:

The amount to pay depends on the household's income / estrato. I don't know any details on where to go, or who to pay off. My wife's brother got out of serving this way. Partly also, because he is the only male child. The family is pretty poor, and I heard the payoff was a couple hundred thousand pesos. Not a lot to us, but that is a month's rent to them.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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Simon says on Feb 21, 2008, 21:40:

Tell your nephew to stop being a coward and that it's an honor to fight for 'La Patria'!!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Sam Salmon says on Feb 21, 2008, 21:46:

The kid should think carefully-or rather his family should-this could adversely affect his future.

Avoiding the draft means no jobs in the police or security-ever-and being taken out of line/made to wait every time he has to show his military discharge papers.

' a la orden!'

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adrimm says on Feb 21, 2008, 21:54:

I've heard that the trick is to try to get an urban posting rather than a rural one (dunno how that works). Service is the way of the land, seems rather a dodgier thing to try and get out of it than just get it over with.

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miamimike says on Feb 21, 2008, 22:05:

If they were here in the USA when we had a draft they could shoot for a College Deferment via Political Connections and Legacy Admissions to some Ivy league School or get a 4F Slip (unfit for duty) for something like a Pilonidal Cyst(r. limbaugh). The Current Batch of Pundits&Fogeybottoms in Wash DC used these routes to escape Military Duty! LOL No such luck in Colombia.

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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miamimike says on Feb 21, 2008, 22:13:

If anything, you should be encouraging your Nephew to Serve his Country. For some of us, our Military Service was a Proud Moment in our lives and values gained in the Military will guide him in life's Journey. His Service to Country will make you proud beyond Words,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 21, 2008, 22:37:

I guess nobody is going to answer the question - just give personal opinions.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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jack_jason says on Feb 21, 2008, 23:56:

He should be proud of serving his country intead of running away from it.

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/how-do-you-say-chicken-hawk-in-c...

This is just spanglish, please do not correct me

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scotty says on Feb 22, 2008, 00:00:

send cash to my account and i will tell you how to avoid army or go to www.colorblind.com

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 02:32:

yes, many can buy the Army card, if he got selected and depend the estrato he lives in..

most of the duties he gets if he goes into the Army are on the city, not very dangerous jobs, they wouldn't send him to the jungle.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 02:34:

BTW No all upper class avoid the services, i have seen many middle or in a few words if you have the right contact you are out.....

And that cliche that the Army makes a Man out of him, is rubbish , many of them are Gay!!! :)))


good to give that advice when we have our butts in a comfy chair.. and are scare of going even to the south of bogota. yeah lets others do the work...

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miamimike says on Feb 22, 2008, 04:06:

RJ--Yep when someone puts a post out, thats the risk they run, people leaving Opinions. Happens every day! LOL

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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miamimike says on Feb 22, 2008, 04:11:

And that cliche that the Army makes a Man out of him, is rubbish , many of them are Gay!!! :)))


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry Kat but my personal experience with Military Service does not bear your "Cliche" statement out! I served my Country in our Military Proudly for 4 years 6 months during the Vietnam Era and have a Very different opinion and it was not Rubbish, serving one's Country! AND,,, we were NOT ALL Gay. This a Demeaning Remark to the many good men who serve. Please Choose your Comments more Carefully in the Future. Thank You

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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jack_jason says on Feb 22, 2008, 04:20:

And that cliche that the Army makes a Man out of him, is rubbish , many of them are Gay!!! :)))

I served for 3 years in the army and no one of us was gay, if there was one, then they hidden it very well. Did you serve in Colombia?

This is just spanglish, please do not correct me

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 04:24:

yes but the ARMY DOESN'T MAKE MORE MANLY.. NO WAY....

I didn't serve in Colombia but knew soldiers who were gay, one thing is they were afraid of coming out of the closet specially since Colombia is a very macho culture!!!

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Alma del Norte says on Feb 22, 2008, 04:26:

Avoiding serving one's country without some well-founded conscientious objection by way of wealth, estrato or connections is an appalling idea. I thought Colombians were proud of their country. Being gay doesn't preclude one from being a Man either - totally irrelevant. Just tell him to kiss his mum goodbye and get on with it. It's only like 18 months or something isn't it?

La vida es una rutina

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 04:27:

Alma if the whole of Colombia could, they all would pay the way out of the ARMY, MANY OF MY NEPHEW'S FRIENDS DID, and they are not estrato 5 o 6.

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Alma del Norte says on Feb 22, 2008, 04:30:

That's a shame Kat. Unfortunately maybe that says more than I care to know about the Colombian psyche. I learn every day.

La vida es una rutina

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jack_jason says on Feb 22, 2008, 04:44:

"Alma if the whole of Colombia could, they all would pay the way out of the ARMY"

I would not say that on behalf of the whole Colombia. this is not a nice generalization. It's so sad. It is like to say that if the whole Colombia could, they all would be prepagos. As sad as that.

This is just spanglish, please do not correct me

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tomtom33 says on Feb 22, 2008, 05:03:

I served 6 years(National Guard) during the Viet Nam war. I didn't have the balls to go to Canada. I had used all 4 years of my allowed 2-S. And my lottery number was 27.

My active duty was done at Ft. Lewis where a lot of guys were sent after their VN tours. Most of the "Re-up" signs had been changed to "Fed-up." When it was announced that my infantry AIT class(except for reservists) would be going to VN, pretty much all discipline broke down. Many guys just said, "Fuck you, what are you going to do? Send us to Viet Nam?" There were a high percentage of draftees in that class.

No one admitted to being gay once they were in. I don't even recall many trying to claim being gay to get out. I wonder what would have happened if someone had kissed a sergeant during their induction physical?

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vicshere says on Feb 22, 2008, 05:27:

trying to avoid serving your country is gay....the army certainly makes a man out of you....in my days I saw many a whip become the real men they were and I to never came across any one gay quite the opposite...I would say most of them were women crazy

listo

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pedro says on Feb 22, 2008, 05:35:

How much does the army pay their draftees during compulsory service?

Lots of assumptions being made here. The anxiety to get out may be due to wanting to provide for one's own family. Many families need multiple incomes to get some breathing space in their finances.

You shouldn't assume lack of backbone or laziness.

que nota!

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elkfarmer says on Feb 22, 2008, 05:41:

Just my dos pesos worth. I too am a Viet Nam vet from America now in Bogota. I did not like the service for 4 years either, but the experience I would not trade for anything. Beats the hell out of college, and taught me about life. God, it´s not like you have a war going on down here. The best advise in the world would be, to go for your country. But then, that is the problem in this whole country. No one really cares about anything but themselves and the almighty peso.

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vicshere says on Feb 22, 2008, 05:48:

No one really cares about anything but themselves and the almighty peso.

farmer you hit the nail on the head I would just change "no one" to "Many"
many families try to keep there kids from the service because it is a tad dangerous and usually has nothing to do with family economics

listo

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jorgegdiaz says on Feb 22, 2008, 06:32:

If he´s drafted, let him go. Probably it will help him to realize how much his family cares for him.
Locombia is not like the US where students go away for college. This experience may be that chance for him.
I did it (didn´t want to and didn´t like it much), and it was over rather quickly. I got a city post and almost got drafted to go to Israel.

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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ColombianoGringo says on Feb 22, 2008, 07:01:

You can pay for a "libreta militar". I am not sure the exact process, but I would look up that specific term. This is done by all kinds of families throughout Colombia, not just the rich ones. I know of one working class family who paid for the "libreta" for their son who decided to join the army anyways and is now a major. Don't feel pressured by those who tell you to make him serve. If he wants to then fine, but I would pay anything to keep my kids out of the army. I wouldn't want them dying for Bush or Uribe.

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thur says on Feb 22, 2008, 07:08:

I don't know exactly how to avoid getting drafted in Colombia. But you're absolutely right to do anything possible to avoid him going... I know people who were forced into military service (despite good Icfes, university applications, money, etc.): it was a year of pure hell (for the people involved and their family). A year of physical and mental abuse, getting sunburned of standing all day in the sun, being cold on the Sabana de Bogotá, harsh conditions of not being able (not allowed) to wash for a week, swollen infected feet, crawling through and eating shit (figuratively and literally), getting bruises, swollen eyes, broken noses... having to put up with bossy kids on a power trip. He'll learn how to smoke, drink, do drugs, be rude to civilians, abuse his position, etc. This was all in/around Bogotá...
However, having said that, it might be a bit different now... as he could be put as a bachiller in the transport department (Transmilenio) or something like that. The presidential guard position is also not as harsh, from what I've heard. It's all a waste of money anyway, as most of these drafted kids will never actually be useful to the army.
Good luck.
Greetings,

- www.pbase.com/thur

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 07:09:

listen maybe in the USA is different, but since i was living in Colombia and now i just have meet one friend of mine who went to the service and got killed, i saw many of my school friends and now my nephew's friends avoiding the Army service.

There is nothing wrong with gay men serving in the Army or is there?
being in the Army it doesn't make you more manly but it does gives you discipline but some become obsess with it.

I don't agree with a compulsory military service unless is for young people who doesn't want to finish their school and just ended in gangs and not doing anything, which there are plenty in Colombia, but a boy who is finishing his high school and want to continued his studies, he is better getting and education soon rather than wasting 18 month in the Army unless of course he wamts to follow that path.

Have you seen the Soldados bachilleres? they are hardly men, they are a bunch of kids with an uniform two sizes bigger than them, family kids that are scare of going out at night or parents won't let them and there they are with wooden stick as a weapon in a dangerous city were your life doesn't worth a penny and untrained, i am sorry i don't want that for my kid, if they want my kid to be in the Army then i want a proper training for him. not a quick 3 moth course and then send him to the jungle or the street.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 07:20:

Apart from some of you Veterans have anyone serve the Army and have been in a War? I know just one here in PBH who is still in a war zone

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poco says on Feb 22, 2008, 08:12:

Quote: If he´s drafted,

There is NO DRAFT. Everyone registers and gets a card.
1. You serve 18 months BUT lots of political rhetoric about more/less etc.
2. You can apply for the draft exemption as noted. Cost is around 400,000 pesos but is tied to the estrato level and goes up/down depending.
3. A medical exemption card. When you apply for the "regular" card you might not pass the physical.

High School Graduates are called "bachillers" and can serve in the National Police or Military. A "bachiller" is a HELPER and to the best of my knowledge are NOT put in a combatant position.

Paying for a deferment is the absolute worst thing a person can do. Exceptions would be those members of a family with a business that would train/employ them.

Paying for the exemption ELIMINATES the individual from ever serving for the police and military and as far as I know, other government jobs. There are also many places that WILL NOT HIRE people with the paid exemption card.

Guess what,, these jobs can pay quite well and have a PENSION. Pensions are becoming a thing of the past in Colombia. Military retirement after serving 20 years and you're out at around age 40 with a pension. Not bad. Funny thing,, The Colombian Military does NOT WANT most of these guys, they serve and go home.

PS: I DISAGREE with almost all of Kat1's posts. Truly clueless thoughts. The most outstanding is the failure to acknowledge that boys need to become men. A large part of becoming a man is learning respect, responsibility and dependability. Attributes that are NOT common in the average 18 years old. After 18 months they WILL understand these attributes.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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ColombianoGringo says on Feb 22, 2008, 08:22:

I don't think you're correct about the exception card eliminating you from ever serving in the military. As I stated, I know a person who paid for it and later decided to join up voluntarily. He has been in the army 16 years now and is a major. There are some good benefits. He told me that the army will soon give him $70 million COP to put towards a house. In the meantime, they live in the officer's complex on Cra 7.

Also, my wife worked for years at the largest staffing company in Colombia whose clients are all the largest companies in the country and she just told be that most companies don't care how you got your "libreta". Obviously, it is up to each individual company, but the only cases where it is an issue are for security related jobs.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 08:28:

Poco but you don't need to go to the army to learn this attributes do you?

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 08:30:

I have seen many 18/19 year old with this attributes, and they learn them from parents education.

Nothing will convince me that going to the army will make a better man of you, we have seen it have been good for some but bad for others.

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vicshere says on Feb 22, 2008, 08:39:

kat I have noticed that many of my male students ages 16 to 25 are "maricas" spelling... its very obvious that the parents have no clue how to raise a man....I also see it in my Colombian nephews....its totally pathetic.....they baby the males till they are into their 30's ...and those never become men...just dependent babies...at least in Canada the men usually leave home before their early 20's and learn very fast about life

listo

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ColombianoGringo says on Feb 22, 2008, 08:43:

I wouldn't call them fags just because they live by Colombian societal norms. It is quite normal for young men and women to live at home until they are married. It is happening a lot more in the US these days. I haven't lived at home since I was 18, but I don't look down on my friends and relatives in Colombia that do so. Keep in mind, that it is very difficult for a young person in Colombia to get a good job that allows them to pay for their own home. Even when they can, it is simply quite normal for them to stay at home.

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jack_jason says on Feb 22, 2008, 08:49:

Well, no one of my friend were living with their parents by the age of 24. I was kicked out from my home at the age of 21.

This is just spanglish, please do not correct me

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poco says on Feb 22, 2008, 08:51:

Quote: Poco but you don't need to go to the army to learn this attributes do you?

No, but I'd say a good 80% don't have them at 18. I'm being kind with that number. Many will someday gain a semblance but NOT when they are 19. Most,, NEVER learn them.

I'm going with vicsheres post because that is also my opinion.

Zangano is the Spanish word ie: worthless, lazy and a barnacle on the ass end of society.

Air Force Military Card.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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msaucey says on Feb 22, 2008, 08:52:

There is a huge difference for serving in Colombia then serving in the U.S.... If we were to switch the tables around and require every 18 year old boy/man to automatically enter the Army or any other service, what do you think the reaction would be? The same that it is in Colombia.... A great majority of families would see how their son should be the exception and what needs to be done so that he doesn't serve...

Bottomline, is that yes, there's always loopholes in a system that requires and mandates people to serve in the Army.... Some use it and some don't....

As for being gay or not, I do believe that's irrelevent.... Colombia gay men have the same issues as American gay men.... Don't ask Don't tell policy, I'm sure is more common throughout the world about sexuality...

Character is built at home, part of normal upbringing and so forth.... I do believe that the Army can instill some additional qualities, as such, responsibility at a younger age, respect, and goal setting. Unfortunately, with the good come the bad, not everyone is made to be a better person in the armed forces, and there are also cases with soldiers that do extremely malice things...

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

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morphus says on Feb 22, 2008, 08:54:

If a 21 year old gets kicked out of the house in Colombia, they are homeless.

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jack_jason says on Feb 22, 2008, 08:56:

How ever, we cannot compare Canada with Colombia. If Colombia had the same economy Canada has, Colombians would leave home at the age of 18. But, to leave home at the age of 18 in a Country like Colombia, is just to be a Kamikaze. I was not happy at all when I was kicked out from home, but, I learned how to look after myself in the army and put it into practice, and that is the ONLY thing I got and I appreciate from the military service.

This is just spanglish, please do not correct me

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poco says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:01:

Quote: and there are also cases with soldiers that do extremely malice things...

I think these same people would do the same thing no matter where they are located.

Seperate the men from the boys might be better stated as: Seperate the boys from the losers.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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poco says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:07:

Quote: I learned how to look after myself in the army

Something MOST Colombian men have NOT learned. I'm absolute on this,, no changing my mind. I've never seen such a bunch of "Momas Boys".

These guys need a wife,, not as a parter, but someone to cook, clean the house, raise kids and wash clothes.

After a few years they'll be in the bars and seek a lover,, if they can afford one.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:10:

I don't see the need for my son or daughter to live home at 18, that is their house and they can stay as long as they like, if they work and contribute towards the house he is welcome, one thing is if he gets married and want me to support him and live in my house.

Another thing as many of the other poster said, leaving home at 18/19 in Colombia it's not easy specially if you are student,Life in Colombia it's much more difficult than in the USA were you can get just a summer job, while on holidays, or jobs are easier to find, so let's get realistic here.


Most students are gay well that is what I call a ridiculous generalization.

BTW many gay men are responsible, respectful and independent so i i don't know what are you talking about.


I have seen here in the UK many kids leaving home at 18, and becoming a mess...no parental guidance at all. they forget all about studies, they just want to drink, party and nothing else, and getting a girl pregnant, responsible eh!

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ColombianoGringo says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:12:

Well. A good bunch of the youth in the UK live on the dole. There is nothing like that in Colombia.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:14:

Iexactly CG , and that is responsability? jajaja

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msaucey says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:14:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Italian men do the same thing, there are still quite a fewcultures where the sons live at home until they are wed....

Yes, in the states, it's different, a lot of men move away, but it doesn't happen on their 18th birthday or during their 18th year unless they move away to attend uni.... they aim to move out by 21.... if possible... remember, an uneducated 18 year old making $8 an hour is also not going to be able to afford to live on their own... and yes, I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but sometimes it's much easier to live at home and save then move out..... Actually, I think there are more kids living at home now in the states then there used to be, since it's so expensive to live on your own.... heck some have baby and move the whole family in under their parents homes....

Again, there are exceptions, but it happens....

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

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ColombianoGringo says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:16:

So. Everyone who doesn't go in the military is destined to become a patty flipper?

I hate that bullshit attitude. The fact that I didn't have to join the military because my parents could afford to send me to college doesn't make me any less of a man. My dad was drafted into the US Army about two months after he got his green card. He hated every minute of it and cursed out every lifer recruiter scumbag that called me and my brother to join up. Good riddance. I know plenty of useless assholes that put their time in the military and are no better for it. Honestly, I don't see any evidence that the military makes "better men". Absolute bullshit.

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poco says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:17:

Quote: Bottomline, is that yes, there's always loopholes in a system that requires and mandates people to serve in the Army.... Some use it and some don't....

I'd suppose you could get a Military Card, go home and they might never call you into service. A perfect situation for the truly worthless and saves the military some money.

Don't get registered,, Ha, Ha,, I've seen quite of few Military Trucks,, BIG TRUCKS,, maybe 2 ton with a tarp cover, rounding up guys w/o the card. Yep,, they ask them for ID and if they don't have it,,, then,, they put them in the truck. Why so big,, well,, I've seen these guys loading bicycles inside. This is QUITE common, saw these trucks in two towns last year.

BTW: The pay for a bachiller is either 30,000 or 60,000 per month. I think it was 30,000 but, the exchange rate,, can't remember I'd bet on 30,000.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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jack_jason says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:17:

Kat, how many children do you have? it sound like you have a football team!

This is just spanglish, please do not correct me

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:20:

My nephew is 19 and he lived at home until this year, he went to Bogota to live with my brother because he of University, we are happy he is with someone from the family to keep an eye on him, no getting distracted from his studying, and to avoid paying an accommodation which is stupid when my brother has an spare room. he won't be able to work as his University course is full time, and my parents won't allow him, the only thing my parents told him was, be responsible in your studies, we will give you everything you need and the only way you will pay us is with good results.

you see in Colombia you do have to study hard to become something!!

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jonas says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:20:

so if someone (American) says he has proudly served his country in Viet Nam, than I must ask myself: WHAT?
And my grandfather (German) proudly served his country in Russia (where he was shot dead)? WHAT.
I rather ask my girl whether she considers me a real man, and not some uniformed MAN.
And I must then also guess that George W. is not a real man? Well I already guessed that ;-)

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:22:

Jack only 2, a handsome boy and a beautiful girl, ;))))) and saying that i would have paid for my kid not to go serve the 18 month service.

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ColombianoGringo says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:23:

The one thing poco is right about is that if you don't register, they will pluck your ass right up off the street. They won't care who you are or what you are doing. You are going away that very minute.

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poco says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:27:

Quote: So. Everyone who doesn't go in the military is destined to become a patty flipper?

I said: Separate the men from the boys might be better stated as: Separate the boys from the losers.

I'd say about 10% of the folks in the U.S. and 50% in Colombia couldn't hold a patty flipper job.

To be a failure in either place requires BOTH attributes: LAZY and INCOMPENET. Colombia has a high percentage of LAZY folks.

AND THAT is the TRUTH.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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vicshere says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:28:

right on poco

listo

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jack_jason says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:31:

Well, moms are moms. All moms are the same.

This is just spanglish, please do not correct me

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:31:

does everybody in the USA goes to the army? if so how many 50% ... and how many are originally Americans, not children of immigrants.

because here in the UK few, not the majority i would said, so does this make the majority here patty flippers?

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ColombianoGringo says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:35:

"Colombia has a high percentage of LAZY folks."

You obviously haven't spent enough time around the youth in the US. My dad gave me a lot of grief because he used to think I was extremely arrogant as I was always in gifted and AP programs and constantly stated that the average young person in the US is an ignorant, lazy, selfish imbecile.

He retired several years back, but then decided to teach high school math. After a few years with America's Youth", he actually apologized to me because he now agrees that most young people in this country are turning out to be wastes of flesh.

Honestly, I am afraid for the US. The youth of this country is growing up with an undeserved sense of entitlement and are generally mediocre at best.

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poco says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:35:

Quote: does everybody in the USA goes to the army? if so how many 50%

Service is voluntary. No one is required to enter the Military.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:36:

so how many join the Army voluntary then? any figure?

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:38:

I agree CG, In Colombia you have to study hard to become something, here they don't care. they know the state gives them everything, they pass from mommy's hotel to state hotel.

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poco says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:40:

Quote: because here in the UK few, not the majority i would said, so does this make the majority here patty flippers?

No, although from the looks of things I'd say it will take a few more years to develop a majority of losers, but,, they won't be able to hold down a patty flipper job.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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ColombianoGringo says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:41:

"so how many join the Army voluntary then? any figure?"

Normally, it is the poor ones who don't have a lot of other options. That isn't to say that many people don't join out of a sense of patriotism or duty.

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tomtom33 says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:45:

I don't think that you need the military to make you a man. But the experience, for me, was very beneficial.

The last thing I wanted in the world in 1970 was to enter the army. I was about to graduate from college, and my father had died in 1969. I needed to establish myself and help my mother and siblings. I managed to find a National Guard unit that had openings. The NG sergeant told me that they would take me if I had a perfect physical exam.

I hated everything about the Army and resented the 18 weeks of active duty and the 6 years(less 18 weeks) of reserve meetings and summer camps. But I managed to do it.

And I would recommend that everyone do it. If you have an aversion to the military, alternative service could be available.

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:46:

at 18 you can be called ,you get put in the 1st line ,you can be called any time up till your 28,
you can pay not to go on the 1st line ,its under the table but is done a lot,you just get put on the 2nd line,if you are the only one in a family ,the only child you don't go ,they do not use a only child.

www.unionjackedfilms.com

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poco says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:51:

Quote: so how many join the Army voluntary then? any figure?

As of April 2007, about 1,426,700 people are on active duty in the military with an additional 1,458,500 people in the seven reserve components.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_United_States

This number should include all branches.

So, I'd say about 3 Million or about 1% of the population.

Education,, humm,, how would a relatively poor person get these benefits?

U.S. Military Education:

Myth:
The Military is a roadblock to a higher education.

Reality:
Qualified servicemembers can receive more than $70,000 in tuition benefits.
Over 30,000 degrees were earned by service personnel in 1999 alone.
The Military operates over 300 schools, teaching more than 10,000 courses.
More than half the enlisted force has some college experience.
The Military offers retired personnel up to $100/month reimbursement for tutorial assistance.
The Military provides free training for personnel interested in starting or enhancing a small business.
Many military bases bring in professors from local colleges to teach courses.
Military personnel can take college courses through the Internet.
http://todaysmilitary.com/app/tm/like/myths?seo=googlemilitary

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:52:

So Tom you didn't do it because you wanted but because you need to, and for you it become a helpful experience but for others no.

I don't have nothing against the Army and i RESPECT IT, but to say that everybody that doesn't join the Army is a coward or gay I disagree.

every mom in Colombia will hate to see his son joining the Ejercito, why? because you know Colombia is not like the USA, you know that is your son is send into that jungle, she probably won't see him alive again.

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ColombianoGringo says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:54:

You're right about the education benefits. As I stated, many poor people volunteer precisely because they have no other options and the military offers a way to a better life. Still, I wonder how many of the 3,000 plus dead US soldiers in Iraq signed up because they were hoping for an education.

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:54:

kat1, if there were 3 million soldiers total in the US, that would be 1% of the US population. I think there is about half that amount.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 09:58:

Poco, well there is different, i talked to a "profesional soldier" he gets paid 700 a month, he is send to the jungle most of the time and told me so many horror stories, i told him why he doesn't leave the Army, he said he wants to wait until he retired if he is alive by then, and his pension was very sad.... but what can a man with hardly any education can do?

to follow the army career is different but then you have to be a bachiller..


the navy is practically for posh kids...a campesino in the navy no way>>>>>

.

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jorgegdiaz says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:01:

To redirect the post to the original Q:

http://www.col.ops-oms.org/juventudes/Situacion/LEGISLACION/ORDEN/DECR...

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:03:

Miamimike and others - when I made the comment about "no answers - just opinions" - I was hoping that people would understand that we know NOTHING about the circumstances of the original poster's nephew (or whatever he was). The first several posts encouraged military service, gave no information, and a few even looked down on somebody not serving. There are so many possible reasons he or his family do not want him to serve, that have nothing to do with being less than honorable, one could write a book on the topic.

And anybody that even has skimmed my posts over the past couple of years knows I am pro-military. It just isn't for everyone - and I would never presume to judge a person whom isn't even in my home country, whom I know nothing about, about their choices for military service.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:06:

You know being Colombian, and a mother and Knowing how is Colombia i would avoid at all cost for my son to do the Army service just like many mother's in Colombia will do.
some of those soldier are send into the jungle in such poor conditions...
But if there were a compulsory Army service here in the UK or USA i wouldn't .

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tomtom33 says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:14:

I have to agree with you, Kat. Colombia would seem to be a different deal than what I experienced in the US. I was stomped on and roughed up, but I always ate well, was well-clothed, and had good medical attention.

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jack_jason says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:17:

Kat, I understand your concern about the life of your son, I would probably have the same concern if I had a son. How ever, thanks to the military service, Colombia has not been taken over by the FARC and EPL. Thanks to that guys who serve our Country, I can enjoy a wonderful dinner at home while I am in Colombia, thanks to that young soldiers who are suffering in the jungle, I enjoy la rumba on friday night in Colombia.

This is just spanglish, please do not correct me

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joanseb says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:21:

aqui muchos jovenes quieren irse al ejercito y eso se ve en las tempradas de reclutamiento. La mayoria no quiere irse porque tienen muchos planes o no ven su vida en el ejercito, personalmente nunca iria al ejercito ni aqui ni en otro pais simplmente porque va contra mis principios morales.
Tal vez para los gringos sea un orgullo estar en el ejercito(no veo la razon, y sobretodo despues de la administracion bush), pero aqui en colombia hay demasiados factores que nos motiva a no estar en el ejercito.

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ColombianoGringo says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:21:

I agree that we all owe a great deal to those who serve in the military forces of our country despite how we may feel about the policies of their leaders. The debate here is about whether someone should be able to choose whether they serve.

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poco says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:25:

Quote: You know being Colombian, and a mother and Knowing how is Colombia i would avoid at all cost for my son to do the Army service just like many mother's in Colombia will do.

Gezzz,, graduate from High School and serve as a military HELPER (or Police). I don't think there is ANY combat. But you can be certain I'll know the answers.

I wonder the percentage of Mothers in Colombia that think like that and tell their children they should break the law? Is this linked to the problem with terrorists?

The statement could refer to JOINING the Military, before and after their 18 months and that is NOT for everyone.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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morphus says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:25:

The soldiers in Colombia are at least fighting for a good cause in their own country. If I was Colombian, I would'nt be too proud about skipping out on military service. Here in the U.S. its different. Soldiers get sent to other countries to fight in bullshit wars. Anybody that tells me they got out of going to Vietnam or Iraq would get my utmost respect.

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Simon says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:29:

"The soldiers in Colombia are at least fighting for a good cause in their own country. If I was Colombian, I would'nt be too proud about skipping out on military service. "

Amazing, I think this is the first time I agree with something you said!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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jack_jason says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:30:

I will put it down in this way. I would not like to see a highly intelligent and great student young guy joining the Colombian Army because it could be a waste of intellectual capacity. But I do like to see those gangs of guys who stand in a street corner smoking marihuana and doing nothing to join the army to do something useful for the society.

This is just spanglish, please do not correct me

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poco says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:34:

Quote: Anybody that tells me they got out of going to Vietnam or Iraq would get my utmost respect.

Vietnam had a draft. During that period in time 18 years olds were given a NUMBER. If you're number was called,, off you went, either to Vietnam or Canada.

Iraq is volunteers.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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jack_jason says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:37:

Americans were paid US25,000 - US40,000 dollars a month to go to Irak. Colombians were paid US2,000 dollars a month to go to Irak. Despite the fact, there were so many Colombians who went to Irak.

This is just spanglish, please do not correct me

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tomtom33 says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:39:

Actually the first lottery wasn't held until 1970. Prior to that first lottery, it was pretty much a guessing game. But yes, if you got that draft notice you went to the Army/Marines, Canada, or prison. I should mention that in some cases alternative service was allowed for conscientious objectors.

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:42:

Poco said: "I wonder the percentage of Mothers in Colombia that think like that and tell their children they should break the law?"

Getting a deferment in Colombia (or whatever the proper term is), is within the law. It is certainly not breaking it.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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morphus says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:56:

A lot of soldiers that went to Iraq signed up for military before the war was thought of. Many went awol.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 10:59:

it's not breaking any law.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:03:

jack wrote: Americans were paid US25,000 - US40,000 dollars a month to go to Irak. Colombians were paid US2,000 dollars a month to go to Irak. Despite the fact, there were so many Colombians who went to Irak.

Jesuschrist and is not even our war...
why they don't come and fight in Colombia then this is their country..uhmm because maybe here they are very badly paid and look after?

easy to say all of this I will fight for my country, people who don't serve the army service are cowards blah blah, why the " Colombians abroad" who are living abroad and who said all of this, don't go to Colombia and help with the fight? go and join , there is plenty of room for everybody...easy to say when we are sitting in a comfy chair, nice and warm room and with a nice meal and nothing to worry about.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:11:

The funny thing was on this trip I met an ex-PARA, he was a soldier before but he said the paramilitars made him a better offer he serve with them and left 5 years ago ,, he told me they called him back but he didn't want to go back to the jungle.

as a soldier he said they paid him 800 a moth, as a para 1,800.00 a moth.

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:11:

If I could get paid $40,000 usd a month in Iraq, where do I sign up? I'll even supply my own weapons. That's $480,000 usd, 950 million cop a year tax free.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:13:

Well i must admit it's very tempting, i will put my name down too. :))))

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msaucey says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:17:

Heck, RJ, pick me up when you go... for $40K a month, I'm in too....

On a side note, is the colombian military as stringent as u.s. military when choosing recruits?... or is it, you're 18 and breathing....

I've come across a lot of mom's with teenage sons that check out the declining voluntary statistics for the military and the never ending Iraq (war/or whatever we're calling it now), because they're terrified that the draft may be installe once again in the u.s. for service and are definitely thinking of alternatives....

Again, this is voluntary in the u.s., not in Colombia... Colombia you must serve unless you can get out of it.... what other countries mandate military service?

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

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ColombianoGringo says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:19:

Lots of countries. I believe Israel does it. I know that Norway used to and may still. I am sure there are many more. It is certainly not uncommon.

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Robert Jorge says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:22:

If I was in Iraq, I would want to ride around in one of these while escorting VIPs.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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jorgegdiaz says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:28:

I ´ve see posted jobs as bus drivers for Irak for 120K year (in 2004) but 40K/ month is insane !
No wonder that war is costing gazillions !

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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juancegomez says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:44:

The main subject of this post has been debated before...so here's a bit of a recent news update that some people might have overlooked.

It concerns the cost of the military card for those who are legally exempt from service.

Btw, a list of reasons for exemption or deferment can be found below, although some of the other information is now outdated: http://www.ejercito.mil.co/index.php?idcategoria=374

Back to the actual news...the Constitutional Court had previously ruled against part of the law on procedural grounds last year (which meant that, for a while, there was no extra cost and I imagine that the card could be legally obtained for a very cheap price), so Congress had to come up with a new, explicit formula.

Or actually two: one for estratos 1, 2, 3 and another for 4,5,6.

The payments can also be made over a certain period of time now, not all at once.

Read on.

--------------
Febrero 13 de 2008

Congreso revivió cobro de libreta militar para quienes no presten el servicio obligatorio

La cuota de compensación que exige el Ejército Nacional para obtener el documento había sido declarado inexequible en agosto del año pasado por un fallo de la Corte Constitucional.

Ahora, los jóvenes de los estratos 4, 5 y 6 tendrán que desembolsar un 60 por ciento del total de ingresos que reciban mensualmente, más un 1 por ciento del patrimonio líquido de su núcleo familiar.

Los muchachos de los estratos 1, 2 y 3 tendrán que pagar solo un 15 por ciento de un salario mínimo mensual, es decir, unos 69.200 pesos.

Para quienes no tengan esta cifra, la nueva norma, que ayer en la tarde pasó a sanción del Presidente de la República, establece que se podrán acordar pagos diferidos, como si se tratara de una compra con tarjeta de crédito.

"Logramos algo muy importante, que los 'sisbenizados' paguen menos cuota de compensación, porque antes tenían que pagar un salario mínimo", explica el representante Augusto Posada Sánchez, uno de los promotores de este proyecto en el Congreso.

La libreta militar es un documento indispensable para los colombianos, pues con esta se logra acceder al mercado laboral e ingresar o graduarse en las universidades.

Frente a las críticas que pueda despertar esta reforma, los promotores aseguran que se logró una reducción para dos grupos de la sociedad.

La senadora Piedad Zucardi asegura que antes el cobro de la cuota de compensación se hacía, para los estratos 4, 5 y 6, con base en el patrimonio bruto, y ahora se realizará con el patrimonio líquido.

La diferencia es que el patrimonio bruto son todos los bienes que tiene una persona y el líquido son todos los bienes, menos las deudas que pueda tener.

REDACCIÓN POL�TICA

http://www.eltiempo.com/politica/2008-02-14/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INTERIOR...

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travelingirl says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:47:

$24,000 to 40,000 per month?! HAHA I'm with you, RJ-- sign me up. That video was hilarious. I want one.

Around her hair she wore a yellow ribbon...

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ColombianoGringo says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:49:

"más un 1 por ciento del patrimonio líquido de su núcleo familiar."

Wow! Estrato 4-6 have to pay 1% of their families liquid assets. I'm sure that anyone with real money will find a way to hide it, but that seems pretty steep.

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tomtom33 says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:57:

It also seems that Israelis, every one of them including women, serve in the reserves until they are well into their 40's.

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poco says on Feb 22, 2008, 11:58:

Quote: On a side note, is the colombian military as stringent as u.s. military when choosing recruits?...

OK, if you're taking people who WANT to join, as opposed to the mandatory draft, ie: Bachillers. Then they are pretty stringent, at least for Colombia.

You will be expected to take classes and increase you education, when you decide to stay in the military as a Noncom.

If you want to become an officer the current requirements dictate attending a military college. I do not think there is any financial help.

You must apply with the military to attend a military school. You must pass the exam and I believe they give these tests in Bogota. Not everyone passes. Don't pass,, tough luck. Even then, a person needs to have some money because Four years costs approx. 40 million, includes room and board. About the same as a doctors education.

I've been advised that those who are NOT SERIOUS about graduating,, ie: really want to join the Military as an officer WILL probably not graduate. Graduates will become Lieutenants.

Approx. 10% of those who attend DO NOT finish. It is not easy, but probably easier than the military schools in the U.S. like West Point. :>)

I think Lieutenants pay is about 2,500,000 pesos per month. A Colonel is pretty high,, not sure the active duty pay but their retirement pay will be around 6 to 7 million per month. Hummm,, about double that of U.S. social security. Except,,, Colombian social security is almost non-existant,, well,, OK,, for those in need,, 70 to 140 thousand pesos per month. Nice thing is,, they didn't contribute. :>)

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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poco says on Feb 22, 2008, 12:10:

Ah, Ha,,, juancegomez to the rescue. What would happen if you quit posting?

I think this is GOOD,, ha,, I'd bet the F.A.R.C. will cease to exist fast,, wishfull thinking,, because these guys don't fight,, still a good idea.

I think it will be impossible to hide if you're really rich but the middle class,, well,, I'd say they will have estrado 3 homes listed as their residences. Some,, in the safer rural parts of Colombia,, like where I live,, :>) actually, many quite well off individuals do live in a 2 or 3 estrado home. You've got to be crazy to pay high utilities and taxes,, crazy, crazy, crazy.

They've started a "crack down" on,, humm what is it when you apply for poverty payments using the estrado 1 rent home as a residence and you're a school teacher or police officer,, stealing,, naw,, toooo harsh,,

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 13:43:

i knew a ex sas guy from the uk here ,he was working for bp out at yopal been there 3 years 5000 dollars a month,nice guy ,he left went to iraq for 60,000 dollars a month yes 60 a month,he did the 1st 3 months came home on leave,made all sorts of plans on his new pay ,went back for the 2nd time ,never came home,his 3 kids want their dad ,they didn't want the money.....now if he could he would liked to have stayed in yopal,chasing money lost him his life....but still a lot are doing it....

www.unionjackedfilms.com

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 13:47:

ujay my brother in law was living in yopal and working with BP when he got Kidnapped....he was released after 14 month in captivity

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ujay says on Feb 22, 2008, 13:53:

so glad he was ok kat1,no joke being held moved around all the time,must have been a nightmare for him,but happy hes home.

www.unionjackedfilms.com

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miamimike says on Feb 22, 2008, 14:49:

So Kat, Lets talk about England where you live; is your Impression of Prince Harry a Positive one or not? Imagine, a BlueBlood like Harry in the Infantry Division. It was well publicized last year when Harry was determined to go and fight with his Combat Unit in Iraq. Harry, obviously was well connected and could have easily done the "Cool and Trendy" thing and avoided Duty in a very Unpopular War we know as Iraq. But No, Unselfishly, Harry answered the Call stating "He couldn't let his Boys down by not going while they carried the fight". For me, If I lived in England, I would be so proud of this Young Man; He is a True Leader and if Miliatry service affected his Life, its certainly has been a positive change. As a Future Leader in England, I have NO doubt he will do his country proud. Imagine how Proud his Mum, Princess Dianna,, must be of him.Not only because of his Military Service but because of his Unselfish nature. As JFK said "Ask not what your Country can do for you, but what you can do for your Country. Forget the War was Iraq, to this Young Man, the Location wouldn't have mattered. HE WENT TO SERVE. I'm glad to see in this World Young Men like Harry, it restores my Faith in the Human Spirit. You in England are lucky to have him,,,

Kat, btw, on this Issue, I will just say, Respectfully, on your opinion concerning the Military in General, I will disagree with you, having been there,,,Poco made many good points I couldn't hit on any better myself.

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 22, 2008, 14:55:

Harry was a danger to others, he would not be put in the front line for sure, and others have to look after him.apart from putting others at risk because he was the main target. you think he would had to go and fight like a normal soldier? no way ..... he was better off staying at home...

i don't know in what points you agree with poco, but i agree in few, maybe because the army service in Colombia is different to the USA.

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miamimike says on Feb 22, 2008, 15:00:

On Price Harry's service:


The prince will become the first royal to serve in a war zone since his uncle, the Duke of York, piloted helicopters in the Falklands conflict 25 years ago.

Officials said Harry, who graduated as an officer last year, will serve as a troop commander in charge of several light tank reconnaissance vehicles.


*****But Harry, who graduated last year from Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst, has insisted he does not want special treatment********.



In a joint statement, they said: "We can confirm today that Prince Harry will deploy to Iraq later this year in command of a troop from 'A Squadron' of the Household Cavalry Regiment.

"Whilst in Iraq Cornet Wales (Harry's regimental title) will carry out a normal troop commander's role, involving leading a troop of 12 men in four Scimitar armored reconnaissance vehicles, each with a crew of three.

"The decision to deploy him has been a military one... The royal household has been consulted throughout."




Britain's Press Association quoted a regimental source saying Harry was "over the moon" at the news.

Harry has always said he wanted to put his training into practice.

*****"There is no way I am going to put myself through Sandhurst and then sit on my arse back home while my boys are out fighting for their country," he said on his 21st birthday.********


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/02/22/harry.iraq/index.html

Kat in what points on Poco's POSt do I agree with? In General, all of them~I'm surprised you didn't have anything Postive to say about your prince Harry. many others worldwide think Higly of him! As far as Harry taking care of Himself, in that I think he is quite capable. He is a Man in every sense of the word. As the article stated, he asked for NO special Treatment,,,What more can one say? In the End, The Military would not send him into battle but that was NOT Harry's decision; he obeyed as an Obedient Soldier would on Orders.He is a Good man, you are lucky to have him as a Future Leader!

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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MaFe says on Feb 22, 2008, 15:19:

Kat..
"Alma if the whole of Colombia could, they all would pay the way out of the ARMY, MANY OF MY NEPHEW'S FRIENDS DID, and they are not estrato 5 o 6."

I don't agree with this, when all my male cousins were called to serve in colombia, my aunt offered to pay all their cards, every single one of them turned my tia down, and said it was their duty to serve Colombia.
=======================================================

"does everybody in the USA goes to the army? if so how many 50% ... and how many are originally Americans, not children of immigrants"
The Military in the US is voluntary, and I can assure you Americans as well as all types of immigrants VOLUNTEER to join the Military..and guess what? Many go in a doctors, lawyers, dentist, all professions! I know many people in all branches of the military..and they are Black, Indian, Latinos, European..actually almost every nation is represented!!
=====================================================

"you see in Colombia you do have to study hard to become something!!"

Just to let you know..in the U.S you study hard to become someone too...so please don't generalize!
============================================================

Lastly Kat,
"I agree CG, In Colombia you have to study hard to become something, here they don't care. they know the state gives them everything, they pass from mommy's hotel to state hotel."

You are so wrong. My grades gave me everything NOT the states. I had a full academic undergraduate scholarship. I was on a FULL ACADEMIC Law school scholarship- to any University of my liking, and I had a FULL ACADEMIC scholarship after law school to get my Ph.D. So don't tell me that the states give you everything, because MY BRAIN, my studying opened up doors for me, and gave me everything!

I have a cousin in Colombia who received a scholarship, instead of paying almost$2000 a semester, he has to pay $200 dollars..
Every country offers opportunities; it's up to the immigrant to see what he can accomplish.
I also believe everyone should serve their country.

Esluan, I belive some have answered your questions, but if your nephew has to serve in Colombia's military, they can also make him serve along side the police in his city.

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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MaFe says on Feb 22, 2008, 15:31:

Msaucey
"what other countries mandate military service?"

Countries that mandate service for both men and women;
Cuba, Israel, North Korea, Lybia, Eritrea.

Countries with Mandatory Military;
Zambia, Vietnam, Uzbekistan, Ukraine,Turkey, Turkmenistan, Tunisia, Tonga, Thailand, Tajikistan, Taiwan, Susan, Switzerland, Syria, Somalia, Singapore, Seychelles, Sao Tome and Principe, Russia, Poland, Paraguay, Moldova, Malaysia, Libya, Kuwait, South Korea, Norway, North Korea, Mongolia, Mexico, Laos, Iran, Guatemala, Greece, Germany, Georgia, Finland, Estonia, El Salvador, Egypt, Ecuador, Croatia, Cote-d'Ivoire, Congo, Colombia, China, Brazil, Bolivia, Azerbaijan, Austria, Angola, Algeria, Albania...

I am sured I missed a lot...

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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ColombianoGringo says on Feb 22, 2008, 15:35:

Mafe, just to clear up. When Kat and I were talking about the state giving you everything we were referring to the UK were a lot of young adults live off of government welfare.

Even so, you have to admit that you would likely not have had the same opportunities to make money in Colombia as in the US. I for example, would end up making at least five to six times less in Colombia than in the US for the same work with the same qualifications. I know for a fact that most lawyers in Colombia make a fraction of what their US counterparts in the US earn. I have a bunch of lawyers in my family in both countries and know about the differences in income potential.

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ColombianoGringo says on Feb 22, 2008, 15:36:

Also, I don't think that anyone is saying that serving in the military is wrong. However, several people stated that anyone wh