homeless

scotty says on Nov 29, 2006, 23:58:

Confused Im not sure what you are talking about. Could you make your statement a little more clear?

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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miamimike says on Nov 30, 2006, 00:27:

I think its clear he is lambasting the Wealthy Class in Col- --ombia for not doing more to alleviate the suffering of the Homeless-to loosen up their wallets a Bit,,,,if he had to work for the wages paid the lower class he would join the FARC also,,,

Avatar Legend: Bush "If any of you Reporters are wondering, it was a Size 10"

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PanosL1 says on Nov 30, 2006, 02:07:

a socialist american cowboy.. now that's an interesting concept.. a bit of an oxymoron and hard to believe but still interesting.. the guy sounds like a stoned GW Bush..
yee hah

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Monita Linda says on Nov 30, 2006, 04:42:

If you are an upper middle class Colombian in the city, you've got nada to do with the poor people on the countryside. No matter if you want to help or not, there is nothing you can do, besides, it would be an endless job!

Poor but Preppy ______Colombia: the only risk is wanting to lay.

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cali373 says on Nov 30, 2006, 07:15:

I think he was lambasting the Colombian elite. With good reason I might add. But that is how the elite like Colombia to be, in my opinion. Why change the status quo when you have the power?

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Nov 30, 2006, 07:26:

I do not see how a country that has better income distribution among its citizens is a socialist concept if in the overall picture market forces are at work. It definitely works for the U.S. (although income inequality is growing fast in the US) and the richest countries. It also did not sound like he was saying the rich should just give away their money to the poor, but provide jobs that pay a decent wage. Bush's concept of socialism is to provide free reign to his own social networks of corporations with deeps pockets, which the in turn is supposed to trickled down to the average person, you think that works???
loliita - you could not be more wrong. But trying to explain it to you would also be an endless job.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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megustamuchisimo says on Nov 30, 2006, 08:33:

Steve and Don...you are right on I never donate to Minuto de Dios or any other charity in Colombia after learning that all the donations and government funding that go to supposedly help kidnap victims are actually going into the pockets of the directors. The wealthy classes here are shameless in their thievery and have the politicians in their pockets to keep the laws favorable. Most businesses are private because the families making millions don't want the rest of the world to know about it. What those ignorant thieves don't realize is that if a middle class were allowed to develop, they would all be better off, less likely to get robbed, kidnapped, have something reasonably resembling good public services, etc.

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aztec says on Nov 30, 2006, 08:52:

In the US... ...Only the Rich Pay Taxes!

The Top 50% pay 96.54% of All Income Taxes
The Top 1% Pay More Than a Third: 34.27%

Suggest everyone read Adam Smith.

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 30, 2006, 08:55:

God Bless Bill Gates -Tiny Tim

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scotty says on Nov 30, 2006, 09:23:

our fault Oh, i get it now....everything that goes wrong in this entire world is America's fault?
Immigration border rush...our fault, Bin ladin...our fault,Iran...our fault, N. Korea...our fault, Colombian and other poor countries...our fault.
We are the bad guys we always line up with the rich, the bad, etc etc, once again just about everything negative is our fault. We certainly have our share of America bashers.

Yet America gives more to the people than any other country in the world, more money, more food, more aid, more assistance. Everytime there is a crisis or disaster America is right there helping the poor people.

Some countries do nothing or very little to help the poor yet America sends ship loads and plane loads of food and medicine and aid to the needy all around the world. The USA even sends aid to countries and peoples that totally disagree with us on everything and in some cases hate us.

America may not be the perfect country and it has certainly made its share of mistakes and bad decisions but it is still the best game in town.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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andresumana says on Nov 30, 2006, 13:15:

Its a matter of history The result of actual conditions is made by history, try to remember how USA born as a country and compare that to the Colombian history.
the main diference is that every one who came to North america cud own a pice of land, in the spanish colonies that wasnt posible, first spanish didnt eliminate all the native population and they where the owners of the all the land, so the economical development was in the first place difernet (huge middle class vs opressed indians and mestize), and the structure of the society were more opresing. then the independency was not a revolucionary movement like it was in USA. It was made from all the criollos (spainsh blood families) who thought that independency will be better for their own
so we import the French Republic stile of goverment, in a place where nothing was done, we didnt have the middle class to fight for their own, so the political representation for the masses didnt represent the people voices, its only until the finals of the XIX century that people start to move to the "fields no good for growing" and they become the first middle class owners of land they start to grow coffee and they introduce Colombia to the international market, that made a huge impact in the Colombian life style and begin to change the order of the things that centurys have been made, then in the XX century begins the US intervention in panama and the chances that this country thougth on bringing more money to the contry were closed when the US Navy support the independet movement in panama. and for that time until now America for americans begin to be a reality to the political envoriment of this country, and the logical submition into a more powerfull Country that has do nothing for real development for their neighbors.

So if your country gives more money to the poor is because a healt development history. That, with the time have made social security for all classes a responsability due to the class fighting made on the political arena, this country have diferent backgrounds and is not until the last 50 year that the real fight is going on, and off course the dimension of the state is not the same of US, Canada or Europe.

And with the Farc Isue, your goverment decide not to eliminate them (the comunist treat) in the cold war as they did in the south (argentina, Chile) and center america, and now they gorw up to fast due mostly to the dollars spend on cocaine and drugs spendend in US and also europe,i think they maybe be a little afraid to figth them cuz vietnam was a very painfull situation, and the caractarsitics of land and style of war were very similar.

This country become from rural to citadine in a metter of decades, so if you saw poor people in the streets is becauze the war made in the country side by the FARC, and the chances they see into going to the big city, the same way people goes to the border of mexico to pass to the us. Is your goverment treat them with clothes and benefits?
NO, the first reason is because they can´t, even your big development cant afford that (thats what economist and politics says)
When people migrate to the city is more dificult, first because they can and there is no law agains that, but the economy of the city have not counted them into their own development, so for them is dificult to integrate, first because they cant apply they knowledge in the city. even that in the lasts years the goverment have made a serius plans to give food and asistance for all the desplazados and incourage them into back to their own lands. despite all this country is wining the war, is making retreat all the irregular forces and now they are mostly in the boarders finding shelter in ecuador and venezuela, is spending more on war than social security, becuase with out the first the second cant be done, Is making the economy grow, and making this country a reliable place for investment.
Now bogota haves a PIB bigger than most of the central american countrys, is facing technology and this new era better than cities like new york, london, Paris (just won the Biennale di Venecia)http://www.labiennale.org/en/news/architecture/en/67078.1.html
and i coute "The Golden Lion Award for cities is awarded to Bogota, Colombia. This city has in the last decades addressed the problems of social inclusion, education, housing and public space especially through innovations in transport. Bogota has applied Miles van der Rohe’s dictum ‘less is more’ to the automobile: less cars means more civic space and civic resources for people. The city provides a model for streets which are pleasing to the eye as well as economically viable and socially inclusive. Bogotá is, in short, a beacon of hope for other cities, whether rich or poor."

Looking in to other country problems short sided (and more to the so called 3rd world countrys)its a phenomeno that is not new for the media and facts of your goverment, that only reflects the ignorance the majority haves of the rest of the world, the hollywood myth still in the minds of millions thinking of this country like a jungle full of cocaine fields and armed cocaineboys in they old 4x4 shooting in the air and dinking beer like... american students

There are no more capos, there are Farc commanders using all this money on this drug war, buyin bullets that afraid and kill only the country men an women,a war that is has been taking place in the farest and poorest places in the country.

If you want to do something, come here, go to a nice 5 stars resort spend a few bucks in a magic beach or if you can afordit you cant choose 1,2,3,4, stars,come here know the reality and talk about the good people, the beautifull cities,the effort that everyone mades here to make shine the name of their country, talk about things you can understand if you dont try to research a little bit and do something about it, if you have more bring economy, bring investment, give jobs to people. and try not to be the typical american that know so little and talk to much.

as what for me concern im finishing this website http://www.colombia4you.com that with time will be a voice that talks about the country from the voices of travelers and people who lives here. very near to this site but not a blog a comunity

http://www.colombia4you.com

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 30, 2006, 22:04:

Nice rants all around, dudes. Keep up the good work.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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aztec says on Dec 1, 2006, 07:29:

Guess you know, andresumana ... ...some of us disagree with your statement as follows. "And with the Farc Isue, your goverment decide not to eliminate them (the comunist treat) in the cold war as they did in the south (argentina, Chile) and center america, and now they gorw up to fast due mostly to the dollars spend on cocaine and drugs spendend in US and also europe,i think they maybe be a little afraid to figth them cuz vietnam was a very painfull situation, and the caractarsitics of land and style of war were very similar."

First place, the FARC is a Colombian problem and must in the final analysis be resolved by Colombians. North Americans are willing to assist but cannot assume the responsibility of your people and your government.

Second point I will like to make is that we would lose all of our friends in Colombia if we landed American troops there and commenced full scale attacks against FARC.

Also, much of the American Left perceive the problem as a civil war and thus we should stay out of the conflict entirely. The US government would find itself in the midst of a huge domestic crisis.

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juancegomez says on Dec 1, 2006, 09:13:

Speaking about reading... Tinto,
Here are some other things that such a reading should include:

The U.S. provided Colombia's military and many other Latin American militaries with the infamous "torture manuals" during the Cold War, not to mention general anti-communist propaganda and political pressure that made an already bad situation worse, plus the ongoing worthless War on Drugs that created the drug cartels and increased violence several times over.

If you go further back, there's also the curious fact that, as "gringo" researcher Paul Wolf has found out, in the ~1970's the CIA apparently destroyed some classified documents about Gaitán's 1948 murder, something which has fueled plenty of speculation about what their content was (did the CIA merely know something we don't know, or did it actually kill/help kill Gaitan, as some conspiracy theorists believe? I don't know, but the possibility is there).

And we could also recall the United Fruit Company's exploitation of plantation workers and its role in the infamous Santa Marta Massacre in the late 1920s, which also influenced the formation of the Communist Party.

Returning to the main topic of this post, it's quite true that the poor in Colombia, and most of Latin America in general, suffer forms of direct and indirect economic and political oppression, both from their own ruling classes and even from the U.S. (as any Colombian leftwinger will tell easily remind you about, now that praising or justifying FARC without a second thought seems to be all the rage here in PBH among some individuals...even while forgetting that the FARC and even non-FARC leftists also blame the U.S. for more than merely supporting the rich, but also for directly and indirectly exploiting Colombia as a whole, including murdering people from trade unions and also "making the rules" through neoliberalism, to quote the first post here).

Yes, there are a number of poor people here who have to work for food. Yes, that's horrible and immoral. Yes, the Colombian ruling class (the true ruling class, not "anyone that is not poor", as some people here love to imply) is probably the single most responsible party for that (just not the only one). That's also horrible and immoral.

But it's also true that the Colombian government, despite its many flaws, does provide more services to most of the poor today than ever before, even if not in the most efficient ways. Different UN studies and websites have numerous figures to show that some things are being done, even if a lot remains to be done (which they also show). So the idea that "nothing" is being done is a complete lie and it would be just as ridiculous to deny it as it would be to ignore the real and persistent problems. Going out to the Colombian streets and rural areas can show you the horrors of many things, but it's ridiculous to focus only on that impression and make everything else irrelevant.

Considering the above, the assumption that the FARC are a viable alternative for most of the poor is rather ridiculous. For some it is, but far from for all. Not to mention that the FARC, as human rights NGOs that are also critical of the government have also documented, is far from an organization that truly respects the rights of its members in any admirable way, to put it lightly.

This post isn't intended as "U.S. bashing", even if some will likely see it in that light, but as a way to add complexity to a situation that some tend to simplify too much.

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cali373 says on Dec 1, 2006, 09:49:

HELLO Aztec! Around 48% of tax revenue comes from the personal income tax which includes the rich. What percentage of that of that is paid by the rich, I do not know. Tax revenue from Payroll taxes amount to around 38%. These numbers come from the US office of Mgmt and budget which is run by the Bush White House. It is NOT bipartisan.
On the other hand "pobresitos" those rich people, 50.1% of total HOUSEHOLD income (that means man & woman working) goes to the top 20% percent of the US population. Adam Smith's philosophy on markets is definitely a sucessful model although FAR from perfect. His Laissez-faire model led us to the great depression and then Keynesian economics (promotion of a mixed economy where the state and the private sector play an important role) came into play.
by the way, the current tax model (with tax brackets changing slightly) was developed during the end stages of the great depression, in order to keep us out of another great depression. Yes I know it has nothing to do with Colombia, sorry.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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juancegomez says on Dec 1, 2006, 09:55:

Tinto Sure, I can recognize that the U.S. victory over the USSR actually seems to be the better (or "less bad") of the two possible outcomes (other than an endless Cold War, which is a bit of fallacy since it would have ended sooner of later...very few things are "endless" in this world), at least as far as current retrospective allows.

But at the same time, the U.S. was also responsible and/or co-responsible for plenty of things, both good and bad. We can blame the USSR that much more, if you want, but the rest of the blame still remains here and there.

Even Western Europeans continue to be quite critical of the role that the U.S. assumed in their internal affairs in more than a few respects, even if U.S. protection and the collapse of the USSR did end up benefitting them in the long run.

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cali373 says on Dec 1, 2006, 09:57:

andresumana, I have to admit that is an interesting summary considering you tried to do give us a brief description of colombian history, however it needs a lot of work. you did leave a major player which are the paramilitaries. while they were more organixed during the 90's they actually have been a part of colombian history since independence.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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juancegomez says on Dec 1, 2006, 10:01:

cali373 I suppose then that you believe in a very flexible interpretation of the term "paramilitary", and equate them to any and all of the (mostly fleeting) armed apparatuses that have existed in some way, shape or form since independence.

Nothing wrong with that, it's just curiousity.

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cali373 says on Dec 1, 2006, 10:09:

Juan "But it's also true that the Colombian government, despite its many flaws, does provide more services to most of the poor today than ever before, even if not in the most efficient ways." I am not sure what angle you mean here but Uribe has actually cut social and education spending in order fullfill the neo-liberal policies of IMF and Worldbank. I thought everyone knew this. I agree with you that FARC in control is not the answer.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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juancegomez says on Dec 1, 2006, 10:36:

cali373 I was going beyond what Uribe per se might have done. I was referring to the fact that the situation of the poor, despite its continuing problems and those cuts to budgets now, is by comparison considerably better than it was 25, 50, 100 or 200 years ago.

In other words, as bad as it still is, it is structurally better than it was before.

You can look at poverty reduction stats that the UN has, for example, not to mention literacy rates and others.

Even if more than half of Colombians live in poverty, that's still a much smaller number than that of several decades ago, and in fact extreme poverty is a much smaller % of all poverty than it was in the 1970s.

Even though I'm no neoliberalist nor a fan of those institutions you have mentioned, I'm looking at things in a long term perspective.

Clearly, that's not cheering on as if everything were perfect, when much still remains to be done and in fact any subsequent significant progress requires probably deeper structural changes than those that are possible under current conditions.

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utopiacowboy says on Dec 1, 2006, 11:36:

Do you post anywhere else, Juancegomez? Your thoughtfully considered comments always seem out of place here and deserve a wider audience, I think.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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juancegomez says on Dec 1, 2006, 11:54:

UTC I actually try to do that, although right now I'm mostly present here and at CBlog, as far as Colombia discussions go. I do visit a couple of other places too, but usually less often.

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utopiacowboy says on Dec 1, 2006, 11:59:

You really ought to write an English language column about Colombian politics and current events for a newspaper or web site. It would be quite educational for most readers, I think.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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poco says on Dec 1, 2006, 16:44:

Quote: hell that's what we pay our dogs here. I hope they don't find out they could live like a king
IN COLOMBIA !!!! If they do,,, they will be trying to find out how to get a VISA and MOVE there. When the dogs find out about all the "PUSSIES",, then watch out they'll be making plane reservations.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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andresumana says on Dec 2, 2006, 14:34:

"First place, the FARC is a Colombian problem and must in the final analysis be resolved by Colombians. North Americans are willing to assist but cannot assume the responsibility of your people and your government.

Second point I will like to make is that we would lose all of our friends in Colombia if we landed American troops there and commenced full scale attacks against FARC.

Also, much of the American Left perceive the problem as a civil war and thus we should stay out of the conflict entirely. The US government would find itself in the midst of a huge domestic crisis"

when i was talking about chile, argentina and central america, i was talking about the Regan age, where CIA where involved into eliminate all the "comunist treat" in latin america aparently they dindt so much in that time where the movment was begining in Colombian lands.

But we have to remember that USA invaded panama not so long ago and the intention was to pull out Noriega the president of their goverment.
if you put it that way you have to think about that
US invaded afganistan to fight the taliban
and taliban was an Afganistan problem.
Sadam was a problem of Irak.


FARC and paramilitary movments are a problem for the United States, they are supporting the drug production, and i think thats a weapon of social destruction and as i sayd before all those dollars that bussines produce are comnig here and are buying corruption, bullets and bringing violence to Colombia.

I know the US goverment is providing ways to help the Colombian armed forces to fight them, and is a proove that they are making progress in that area.

But were times were diferent and Uribe wasnt there making the war machine works, and all those groups were growning and hesitaiting the civilians, in my opinion most of us beleave things were going downhill, a lot of people decide to migrate to US and Europe.

So when the drug money is related in the problem of Colombian conflict everything is connected, from the companys who produce Weapons and quimics, the other goverments in wish the trafic networks are (weapons and durg trafic), the other nations in wish those groups find shelter, is not an easy thing to say or admit. But the problem is big, is continental and it seems it need a lot more to do. it has been done a lot of damage to the people of Colombia and to the american society as well. this isnt a Comunist fight any more too, they are just a bounch of propaganda afected drugdealers who want to take control (how does that sound?). And is time all those implicated take responsability of their actions.

More money?, and armed intervetion? i dont know realy but at least a more clarified envoirment where the american society can know the hole situation (a media responsability)

And with the paramilitary yea i forgot to talk about them you are right but my post was getting soo long (Lol!)

"you did leave a major player which are the paramilitaries. while they were more organixed during the 90's they actually have been a part of colombian history since independence."

If you think in the end simon bolivar was a "guerrilla" or something like that but he give us our independency cuz he won the war "the history is made by the ones who won". Ok so we had our indepence from Spain, we didnt had any more the spanish army and all the burocratic engine any more. for decades we didnt have a formal army so for many owners of the land (independency heroes)they had to gater people who cud make some kind of public order, and for many years that was the way thins were, of course the Colombian goverment and its institution ware groing but it wasnt enough, the presence of the state was so little that generated perfect envoirment for the paramilitaries to rise and guerrilas who want to fight them back too, then the comunists started to support gorrilas and owners support more and more paramilitaries, (who was right? one or the others)public orther and propiety rights vs social right and opression -im not taking part is just history
Now in the last 3 decades the conflict scaled out of proportion
FARC and the other groups started to take out owners from their farms
Kidnappings and allthat kind of resources to financieate them selfs, the reaction was that those people start to pay more and more to the paramilitayes to fight back them, make some public order and make respect their propiety rights. who has the blame? the insuficency of the state to make public order and they own failure into make a realistic and efective agrarial reform* (dont know is the right term in spanish=reforma agraria)

Then the big cartels were destroyied (bigest paramilitary supporters), so who take control of that bussines (that was a incredible amount of money!) the paramilitarys itselfs and they counterpart too

well thats is my impresion of how the things were, but i know there will be others points of view. welcome all to clarify me and all the readers too


http://www.colombia4you.com

http://www.colombia4you.com

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