Himno Nacional de Colombia (Colombian National Anthem)

goin_south says on Feb 27, 2007, 22:42:

A better question, my friend, would be... has anyone actually remained awake through the whole damn thing?

ELEVEN FREAKIN VERSES???? Sounds to me like the writer was paid by the pound...and, I don't mean British ;)

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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goin_south says on Feb 27, 2007, 22:44:

unnecessary comment

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 28, 2007, 06:11:

we used to sing the 11 verses at school, by verse 8 i was bored to death. at school they teach the kids to learn and sing the 11 verses.

engage brain before opening mouth

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Feb 28, 2007, 06:14:

¡OH GLORIA INMARCESIBLE!
¡OH JUBILO INMORTAL!
¡EN SURCO DE DOLORES
EL BIEN GERMINA YA


FIRST VERSE

CESÓ LA HORRIBLE NOCHE
LA LIBERTAD SUBLIME
DERRAMA LAS AURORAS
DE SU INVENCIBLE LUZ.
LA HUMANIDAD ENTERA
QUE ENTRE CADENAS GIME,
COMPRENDE LAS PALABRAS
DEL QUE MURIO EN LA CRUZ.

SECOND VERSE

"INDEPENDENCIA" GRITA
EL MUNDO AMERICANO:
SE BAÑA EN SANGRE DE HEROES
LA TIERRA DE COLON.
PERO ESTE GRAN PRINCIPIO
EL REY NO ES SOBERANO
RESUENA, Y LOS QUE SUFREN
BENDICEN SU PASION

THIRD VERSE

DEL ORINOCO EL CAUCE
SE COLMA DE DESPOJOS,
DE SANGRE Y LLANTO UN RIO
SE MIRA ALLI CORRER.
EN BARBULA NO SABEN
LAS ALMAS NI LOS OJOS
SI ADMIRACION O ESPANTO
SENTIR O PADECER.

FOURTH VERSE

A ORILLAS DEL CARIBE
HAMBRIENTO UN PUEBLO LUCHA
HORRORES PREFIRIENDO
A PERFIDA SALUD.
¡OH SI DE CARTAGENA
LA ABNEGACION ES MUCHA,
Y ESCOMBROS DE LA MUERTE
DESPRECIAN SU VIRTUD.

FIFTH VERSE

DE BOYACA EN LOS CAMPOS
EL GENIO DE LA GLORIA
CON CADA ESPIGA UN HEROE
INVICTO CORONO.
SOLDADOS SIN CORAZA
GANARON LA VICTORIA;
SU VARONIL ALIENTO
DE ESCUDO LES SIRVIO











SIX VERSE

BOLIVAR CRUZA EL ANDE
QUE RIEGA DOS OCEANOS
ESPADAS CUAL CENTELLAS
FULGURAN EN JUNIN.
CENTAUROS INDOMABLES
DESCIENDEN A LOS LLANOS
Y EMPIEZA A PRESENTIRSE
DE LA EPOPEYA EL FIN

SEVEN VERSE

LA TROMPA VICTORIOSA
QUE EN AYACUCHO TRUENA
EN CADA TRIUNFO CRECE
SU FORMIDABLE SON.
EN SU EXPANSIVO EMPUJE
LA LIBERTAD SE ESTRENA
DEL CIELO AMERICANO
FORMANDO UN PABELLON

EIGHT VERSE

LA VIRGEN SUS CABELLOS
ARRANCA EN AGONIA
Y DE SU AMOR VIUDA
LOS CUELGA DEL CIPRES.
LAMENTA SU ESPERANZA
QUE CUBRE LOZA FRIA;
PERO GLORIOSO ORGULLO
CIRCUNDA SU ALBA TEZ.

NINE VERSE

LA PATRIA ASI SE FORMA
TERMOPILAS BROTANDO;
CONSTELACION DE CICLOPES
SU NOCHE ILUMINO;
LA FLOR ESTREMECIDA
MORTAL EL VIENTO HALLANDO
DEBAJO LOS LAURELES
SEGURIDAD BUSCO.

TETH VERSE

MAS NO ES COMPLETA GLORIA
VENCER EN LA BATALLA,
QUE EL BRAZO QUE COMBATE
LO ANIMA LA VERDAD.
LA INDEPENDENCIA SOLA
EL GRAN CLAMOR NO ACALLA:
SI EL SOL ALUMBRA A TODOS
JUSTICIA ES LIBERTAD


ELEVEN VERSE

DEL HOMBRE LOS DERECHOS
NARIÑO PREDICANDO,
EL ALMA DE LA LUCHA
PROFETICO ENSEÑO
RICAURTE EN SAN MATEO
EN ATOMOS VOLANDO
"DEBER ANTES QUE VIDA",
CON LLAMAS ESCRIBIO

engage brain before opening mouth

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Colombia314159 says on Feb 28, 2007, 07:17:

Himno Nacional de Colombia (Colombian National Anthem) I can not comment on all of the verses; however, I did download a great video of the Himno Nacional de Colombia at this site.

http://www.zippyvideos.com/9759136501265756/himno/

Sue

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Gomezman5 says on Feb 28, 2007, 08:04:

So Kat How long did it take you sing it? It has to take at least 15 minutes, because as you know, between each verse, you also have to sing the chorus section again (twice).

So if someone can find me a recording of the entire version, that would be interesting to hear if for no other reason, just to hear how long it takes someone to sing it. I think nobody does it because you would either fall asleep in the middle, or bore people to death.

And Sue, they have much better versions on YouTube, with really great videos of higher quality. That womann's voice in the link you provided was screetching in my ear.

Now if you want to hear a version that really makes a political statement beyond the words themselves, check out this version. There is no other I have seen quite like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz44XEUuRvI

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Mononoke28 says on Feb 28, 2007, 16:29:

The reason... ... is simple, it's too damn looooooooooooooooooooong!!

Diana

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goin_south says on Feb 28, 2007, 22:12:

I like rubito's idea; Kat1, I bet you sang that damn thing to your kids to put them to sleep.

The national anthem has to be THE NUMBER ONE MOST BORING THING ABOUT COLOMBIA!

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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goin_south says on Feb 28, 2007, 22:13:

Imagine if you had to listen to that before every game.

(Yyyyy-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-nnnnnn; I don't think I ..... wanna play anymore!)

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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Man Tequila says on Feb 28, 2007, 22:49:

Nothing new here.
It's a Nothing new here.

It's a long anthem, but the reality is most countries have national anthems that are many verses and people only know and sing the first verse.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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goin_south says on Feb 28, 2007, 22:57:

I do remember after having knowing my novia (of 2 years) for about 4 months, and before I had made my first trip south, while up late one night en el internet, I came across this song, and called her on the phone with it playing in the background. She was terribly impressed,....while I was falling asleep, making points. lol

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 1, 2007, 09:37:

Yea...it's kind of funny You can be in Bogota, riding on one of those old busses with the Christmas lights, loud salsa going, and then........silence, with the national anthem playing. Talking about a change of pace......

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Dan says on Mar 1, 2007, 09:50:

my first thought is. How often do you really hear more than the first verse of the US anthem either. There's three (If I remember right), but it's been awhile since I've heard the whole thing.

God Bless America!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 1, 2007, 10:48:

I've heard the first, second and the sixth verse sung frequently. The sixth verse is the one about Bolivar crossing the Andes and the llaneros with their long lances...

Cheers,
Desi


"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang van Goethe

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Simon says on Mar 1, 2007, 11:16:

"I vote we change it
put "I vote we change it
put some snappy Joe Arroyo number in there. And get that Christian bullshit out of it. It's 2007!"



Rubito,

What are you, some sort of fucking satanist?

If you don't like the fact that our national anthem mentions our lord Jesus Christ, then get the hell away from Colombia!!!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Simon says on Mar 1, 2007, 11:19:

"The national anthem has to be THE NUMBER ONE MOST BORING THING ABOUT COLOMBIA!"

FelizaDeasfortunado,

In case you didn't know, our national anthem is considered to be one of the most beautiful in the world.

Y si no le gusta nuestro himno, como dijo Chavez.... "vayase al cipote"!!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Simon says on Mar 1, 2007, 11:34:

"And many Colombians don't believe that stupid fucking redneck bush superstition either, and they shouldn't have to repeat that moronic garbage in their national anthem. "

Well, you know something..most Colombians and other westerners DO ACCEPT AND BELIEVE IN JESUS, so regardless of whether you do or not, I suggest you show a little respect for the beliefs of the overwhelming majority.

I also suggest that you accept the Lord. Your having to cling on to cultures that are not your own to attain happiness demonstrates to me that there's a certain void in your life, accept God and maybe you won't feel that emptiness anymore.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Simon says on Mar 1, 2007, 11:45:

Thanks Don G,
I also like Thanks Don G,

I also like the US anthem...that part when they sing "O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave" gets me every time!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Monpirri says on Mar 1, 2007, 12:04:

Simon I do not know what happened to El felizafortunado about his opinion about the Colombian national anthem. All I can think of is that El felizafortunado does not know much about the Colombian anthem but he wanted to post anyway to be funny or maybe just show his support to the author of the ill-intentional thread. This is the second time that I noticed his support for someone who does not know Colombia. But the majority of time here on PBH, El Felizafortunado has posted more positive news about Colombia than the rest of members who claimed to know all about the country

"Colombia is known as one of the most beautiful," DonGringo is correct!

Thank you Simon for having the knowledge and guts to address this subject!!

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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goin_south says on Mar 1, 2007, 16:35:

Maybe el felizafortunado attempted to listen to the anthem and, ...
This is Colombia! Land of Enchantment! with all things! until you hear that freakin anthem. Nothing funny about it. And, I only read the first part of rubito's recommendation: Let's get Smokin Joe Arroyo! to put some spice into that thing!

I re-read, and didn't see anything about Jesus in there...
But, hey... "JESUS Is Just Alright with Me."
And, so is the Dhali Lama!

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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goin_south says on Mar 1, 2007, 16:39:

by whom? (((our national anthem is considered to be one of the most beautiful in the world.)))

Oh, brother; I can't wait to start my own survey.
Survey says: "Colombian National Anthem? Huuumh. I don't know; Someone said they were playing it once, and... next thing you know, I was taking a siesta"

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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juanalejo says on Mar 1, 2007, 17:28:

Rubito I absolutely agree with you, the national anthem was written before the values of todays constitution had even been thought about, and I agree that things like mentioning Jesus and the Virgin ought to be taken out. Any how today we have more and more non Christians in Colombia and the anthem should reflect that, including people like Gomez´s family who have been in this country for years and yet they do not believe in the Christian faith. Sad to see there are still some people who believe it is their way or nobody´s way, but fortunately young Colombian´s day by day are more willing to accept other people´s opinions without trying to impose their personal views.

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manINred says on Mar 1, 2007, 17:41:

Who the hell are you? "Here's what you can do with your faggot JC..."

Are you trying to offend people? You sound like a full-of-it pompous twat. If you are going to try to get whatever pathetic point you are trying to make across to people, you might find it more tactful to not make such offensive statements. Who sounds like the backwards 'bush-loving' redneck now?

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aztec says on Mar 1, 2007, 17:51:

Rubito "And many Colombians don't believe that stupid fucking redneck bush superstition either, and they shouldn't have to repeat that moronic garbage in their national anthem."

Now come on Rubito you know that kind of talk will only upset people. You are usually more accommodating than that. As you profess, on another site, you are a Libertarian. One of the tenents of the philosophy is let people alone to believe as they wish so long as it does not restrict your freedom.

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manINred says on Mar 1, 2007, 18:06:

absolutely aztec, you sum it up perfectly.

Ademas

"Colombians are more and more starting to throw off the shackles of their stupid religion. The whole world must do this, people who don't are just gonna die off like the obsolete species that they are. "

That's such bollocks. I come from an Anglican family who has made major advances in the world of medecine, specifically Psychiatry. I haven't, but my great-grandmother has and set an example for her children who went on to become doctors and well respected in their scientific fields. Did the religion make them die off and become obsolete? NO. It's a farce what is written by Rubito, a complete and utter embarrassing joke.

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packagegirl says on Mar 1, 2007, 18:21:

Ayyy por favor Generalmente escribo en inglés, pero no lo voy a hacer porque sinceramente "rubito" no se merece esa molestia de mi parte, lo siento por las otras personas que sólo entienden inglés.
Con qué derecho hablas sobre el himno y la religión de nuestro país?
Acaso usted habló con la mayoría de los Colombianos para llegar a esas conclusiones?
Por favor más respeto, ese es un símbolo nuestro, y aunque usted no lo crea la mayoría aquí somos Católicos y Cristianos. A usted no le gustaría que hablaran mal de su país o de las cosas en las que usted cree, o sí?
Y si no le gustan tantas cosas de acá, entonces vayase o si esta en otro lugar no vuelva, que personas como usted no son bienvenidas acá. Personas como usted hacen pensar que los extranjeros son odiosos y aburridores.

"Es más fácil destruir que construir y hablar que hacer" Verdad "rubito"???

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juanalejo says on Mar 1, 2007, 18:57:

packagegirl La mayoría de los Colombianos podrán ser Católicos y muchos mas de otras denominaciones Cristianas, pero Rubito (aunque en un tono quizá demasiado subido de tono) critica y con toda razón la letra obsoleta del himno de Colombia (mi país) que no representa a la Colombia moderna que trabaja a marchas forzadas por la inclusión de todos los pensamientos dentro de un país secular y amplio a la diversidad cultural.

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packagegirl says on Mar 1, 2007, 19:05:

Que pena que apoyes esa basura puede que sea obsoleto, pero tomo muchos años y esfuerzo hacerlo y esta soportado dentro de nuestra Constitución y Leyes respetarlo, no sólo por nosotros sino por los ciudadanos extranjeros que vivan en nuestro país:

CAPITULO I.
DEBERES CIUDADANOS Y DE ENTIDADES PARA EL USO DE LOS SÃ?MBOLOS PATRIOS.

ART�CULO 1o. Es obligación izar la Bandera Nacional en todo el territorio colombiano en los edificios, casas y dependencias oficiales y particulares, en las siguientes fechas: 20 de julio, 7 de agosto, 12 de octubre, 11 de noviembre y fiesta nacional del Sagrado Corazón de Jesús. Se izará enlutada y a media asta en los días declarados oficialmente como duelo nacional y en las ocasiones que lo disponga expresamente el Congreso Nacional o el Organo Ejecutivo.

Obviamente somos un país católico

CAPITULO II.
SANCIONES.

ART�CULO 18. El que por desprecio, ultraje públicamente la Bandera, el Escudo o el Himno Nacional de Colombia, se sancionará de conformidad con lo establecido en el artículo 117 del Código Penal y normas que lo adicionen, modifiquen o sustituyan.

El que no este de acuerdo, puede recurrir a la presidencia y sustentar el por qué de su posible modificación, pero nadie tiene derecho muchos menos alguien que no es Colombiano a insultar un símbolo patrio o si?

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Monpirri says on Mar 1, 2007, 19:15:

Colombian National Anthem In 1887, José Domingo Torres, combined his two passions of theatrical music and his love for his country to push for the creation of a national anthem for Colombia. He decided to use as the lyrics of the anthem an inspirational poem written by the then President Rafael Núñez commemorating the city of Cartagena, and asked his friend Oreste Sindici, an Italian opera teacher, to compose the music. (One common characteristic of Latin American epic anthems such as Colombia's is that the music often resembles Italian operas.) The anthem, containing eleven verses in total, was first performed in November of that year in a music hall in the public school where Sindici taught. The anthem was officially adopted by Congress in 1920, and an official transcription was made in 1946.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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manINred says on Mar 1, 2007, 19:23:

oh go fuck yourself Rubito. Who gives a shite if 10% are not christian, that's not the point here. You are just too bigoted to admit fault in insulting christianity and people's beliefs to make a point, you are the summation of patheticism. You are the typical arrogant north american, self-righteous and childish, too big a man to admit flaw. 'Guevon'? Jajajaja.

Packagegirl, tienes toda la razon del mundo.

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Monpirri says on Mar 1, 2007, 19:25:

Packagegirl Muy interesante tu contribucion sobre las leyes de Colombia. Creo que estas leyes deben de ser tambien aplicadas con todo el vigor a esos extranjeros que muy frequentemente difunden atrocidades sobre Colombia aqui en esta pagina, y en la otra disque de Colombia.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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manINred says on Mar 1, 2007, 19:27:

"creo que fueron personas como uds que hizo a Colombia caer en tanta mierda en las 80"...

you really are one clueless disrespectful hp. Colombia no le quiere.

Oh, and by the way, packagegirl is completely justified in her outrage. Monopirri would be too.

ay hijuemadre no voy a volver entrar en este sitio con tanta mierda, que pereza...

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packagegirl says on Mar 1, 2007, 19:30:

Hey Desire pilas pues !!! Que pasa??? Si esta es una página para los turistas que vienen a COlombia, cómo permitis que una calaña de persona como es Rubito hable tanta mierda? Sinceramente merece ser sancionado de esta comunidad
Obviamente es un desadaptado social.
Lo único que puedo hacer al respecto es escribirle al presidente Uribe sobre usted, y creame que si estuviera en Bogotá, iría yo misma y le rompería la cara. El único GUEVÓN aquí es usted, por desadaptado, problemático.
COLOMBIA NO LO QUIERE VAYASE DE AQUÃ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FUERA!!!!
DOUCHEBAG
Y tranquilo me puede decir hasta misa, que no pienso volver a entrar a este foro, pues a diferencia de usted, tengo cosas más importantes que hacer, como ayudar a mi país, y en este caso a la gente de Moravia que lo necesita realmente, por mi usted se puede morir.

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Monpirri says on Mar 1, 2007, 19:40:

ManINred Existe dos o tres individuos que siempre estan poniendo el pais por el piso pero no hay dejar que ellos sigan atropiando la imagen de nuestro pais. Mi consejo para ti, continua aqui con nosotros hasta el final, hasta que los vagabundos ignorantes sean identificados y expulsados o jusgados.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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manINred says on Mar 1, 2007, 19:44:

packagegirl is one of the few sane ones here. So change the hymno to be more secular then, see if anyone cares.

Oh Rubito, you fail to make your point and you go on insulting people. You can't justify your outrageous behaviour so you go on making it worse. Tut tut.

You are the summation of negativity and arrogance. It's sad to see a forum become grounds for you to make your twisted and pathetic knocks on personal beliefs. Too bad, you were probably raped by a priest as a child. Now you're slinging your shit for all of us to smell. Did god make you an ugly motherfucker? Did Christianity ruin your life? Well, who cares, I'm not even religious, but I know lines that you just don't cross at least, lines that you're too ignorant to know exist and Tinto has a point.

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manINred says on Mar 1, 2007, 19:46:

si monpirri tenes razon, yo debria ignorar la gente tan ignorante como Rubito y disfrutar las cosas buenas de su hermoso pais y de este forum.

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Simon says on Mar 1, 2007, 21:05:

"I absolutely agree with you, the national anthem was written before the values of todays constitution had even been thought about, and I agree that things like mentioning Jesus and the Virgin ought to be taken out."


A mí se me hace que este Juanalejo es otro anti-cristiano, es una lástima porque hasta hoy le tenía respeto!

Para los descreidos:

Metanse esto en la cabeza....COLOMBIA ES Y SIEMPRE SERA EN SU MAYORIA CATOLICA/CRISTIANA!!!

SI NO LES GUSTA, SE PUEDEN LARGAR DEL PAIS!!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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goin_south says on Mar 1, 2007, 21:09:

...but, I am only guessing that Colombia has MORE catholic churches 'per population' than .... ? Who knows where. I really haven't traveled that much OUTSIDE OF THE USA, to be able to say. But, from only a few trips there.. they got alot of freakin catholic bell towers screamin down there.

It's...pretty catholic. And,... I believe I have yet to meet a Colombian who is 'NOT'. Although I am sure there are a few.

Now, as to say 'what sort of catholic',...devout, practicing, born, or many other adjectives... that is a whole other library full of discussion.

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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Monpirri says on Mar 1, 2007, 21:14:

That's right! And The United States of America was founded upon a Christian belief and all the US presidents have been Christians of evangelical denominations with the exception of John F. Kennedy.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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goin_south says on Mar 1, 2007, 21:19:

For those who have alot of things that bug the fuck out of them may I suggest,... THE SEDONA METHOD

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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Monpirri says on Mar 1, 2007, 21:22:

Asi tambien es Colombia!
CHORUS
Oh unfading glory!
Oh immortal joy!
In furrows of pain
Good is already germinating.

(repeat)

(repeat chorus)

The fearful night came to an end,
Liberty sublime
Is spreading the dawns
Of its invincible light.
The whole of humanity,
Which is groaning under chains,
Understands the words
Of the One who died on the Cross.

CHORUS

"INDEPENDENCE," cries
The American world;
In heroes' blood is bathing
The Land of Columbus.
But this great principle:
"THE KING IS NOT SOVEREIGN,"
Resounds, and those who suffer
Praise the passion in it.

CHORUS (without repeats)

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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Monpirri says on Mar 1, 2007, 21:24:

I cannot believe his crap and he is a moderator of Colombian websites.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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Simon says on Mar 1, 2007, 21:29:

Rubito,
I only have two Rubito,

I only have two words for you and they are the best advice that anyone can give you:

ACCEPT JESUS!!!


I don't want you to end up singing in some really unbearably hot place in the afterlife, he he.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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goin_south says on Mar 1, 2007, 21:35:

Although if it happened to be Barranquilla 'a really hot place',.... he probably won't mind.

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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Simon says on Mar 1, 2007, 21:37:

"READ NIETSZCHE!"

Rubito,

The Nazi Philosopher? No thanks, but you can be a good boy and go read the greatest book of all....the Bible!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Monpirri says on Mar 1, 2007, 21:41:

Rubiko If you despise the US and if you despise Colombia stay out! Save your derogatory comments and egocentric philosophies for your followers.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 1, 2007, 22:10:

Oh you guys are cracking me up When I left my office, this thread was just sailing along with a few benign comments. 8 hours I come on here and see 50 something posts, and huge controversy over a simple question. It must be me. If it has my name on it, or anywhere near it, there has to be controversy.

Let me make my feelings clear. I love the anthem. I love it so much, I have an audio file on my desktop, and I play it for people all the time. I have 3 videos that go with it and I show them to people. It is beautiful, it sends the message of what Colombian people believe in to this day. The message is loud and clear that they value their liberty, because there was much sacrifice to achieve it.

I think the playing of it twice a day, (if I recall it is 6 AM as well as 6 PM) is a good thing. I think they should do that here in the US too. But the F'in ACLU, and other civil rights idiots would stop that in one court visit.

I may also add, that Jewish people are very comfortable in Colombia. Simon, you don't have to try and convert people. In spite of all of Colombia's problems, the fact that Colombia is so tolerant of other religions, especially non Christians, is one thing that makes Colombia so virtuous. We're not offended by the words:
"COMPRENDE LAS PALABRAS
DEL QUE MURIO EN LA CRUZ."

Jewish people recognize that Colombia, as well as most of Latin
America (if not all) has governmental institutions that overlap with with Christianity. (Mostly Catholic based). I don't know of many Jews that feel threatened by that. Maybe it's because we have the financial status to hold our own. You will not find many poor Jews in Colombia or any other Latin American nation for that matter. What I like about Colombia, I will defend, be proud of, and share with others.

All I want to know is where.....if anywhere can I get a recording of the anthem with all 11 verses sung. DOES ANYONE KNOW IF SUCH A RECORDING EXIST??????

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Simon says on Mar 1, 2007, 22:19:

Gomezman,
Dude, this has Gomezman,

Dude, this has got to be your best post ever 'cause I actually agree with everything you said!

I commend you for your love for our national anthem, it really is sublime, I get goosebumps every time I hear it. I'll try to find it with every verse sung and will let you know if I find it.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 1, 2007, 22:28:

Most national anthems suck so having a decent one is fairly easy. I hate the Star Spangled Banner and Oh Canada makes me want to puke. My favorite will always be La Marseillaise. It makes you proud to be French.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Simon says on Mar 1, 2007, 22:30:

'La Marsellaise' is my favorite too after 'Oh Gloria Inmarcesible'. Love that scene in 'Casablanca' where they start singin it, what a classic.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Simon says on Mar 1, 2007, 22:42:

"certain Nazis employed a highly selective reading of Nietzsche's work to advance their ideology, notably Alfred Baeumler in his reading of The Will to Power. The era of Nazi rule (1933 – 1945) saw Nietzsche's writings widely studied in German (and, after 1938, Austrian) schools and universities. The Nazis viewed Nietzsche as one of their "founding fathers""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neitzche#Nietzsche.27s_influence_and_reception

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 1, 2007, 22:57:

Simon, glad we're on the same page and I really would admire you a whole lot if you can find the anthem, with all 11 verses sung. I think you would like that too.

UC, it really is a cool anthem. The music, the words,......are so powerfull. People in my office think I am nuts. Guess what, and don't laugh, but I even have ringtone with the anthem. It's not a real tone, but it is a polyphonic one. I have that one set for whenever anyone from Colombia is calling me.

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 1, 2007, 23:09:

I've been meaning to ask you, G5, and this might make a good thread about Jews in Colombia. I had a Jewish girlfriend that I have always remained close to and my wife really reminds me of her in many ways. In fact it's hard for me not to think that she's got some Jewish blood in her. Is this likely or possible?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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poco says on Mar 1, 2007, 23:21:

Hang around a while What are you, some sort of fucking satanist?

I think his thoughts are anti religion. Watch his posts, he takes these "digs" often (I have my favorites) and soon it will become evident why.

The argument should be "what is the replacement" and how to sell it. ?

He might say "nothing" but a Church that worships food with satisfying music will change his mind.

A dying person witnesses a brilliant light surrounding steaming arepas suspended from a stiff pole hearing the soothing chorus from Lady Marmalade.

Gichi gichi ya ya da da
Gichi gichi ya ya
Mocca choca lata ya ya

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 2, 2007, 00:22:

I kinda like the Swedish National Anthem You ancient, you free, you mountainous North
You quiet, you joyful beauty!
I greet You, most beautiful land upon earth,
/:Your sun, Your sky, Your meadows green.:/
2
You throne upon memories of great olden days,
When honoured Your name flew over the world,
I know that You are and will be as you were,
/: Yes, I want to live I want to die in the North :/

See, no mention of any gods, not even the Sweden as a country. Just a simple celebration of our nature and of our free ways of old; ending in that heart-lifting sentence, "I will live, I will die in the North!"

That apart, I really like the Colombian National Anthem, especially the part about Bolivar crossing the Andes and indomitable centaurs descending on the plains...I have it also in several recordings and my kids can sing at least the first verse too...

Rubito, I was asleep last night when you went beserk against Christian religion and national symbols. Please respect other people's religious and patriotic sensitivities. That said, the New Colombia you talk about exists only in your imagination. There might be a small group of freethinkers, libertarians, satanists, drugheads, prostitutes, pimps and such in YOUR little world in Bogotá but most of Colombia is NOT like that. The evangelical churches and their mushrooming in Colombia in the latter years is partly result of rather aggressive evangelical missionary work and the millenium hysteria of the turn of the century when world was going under and people felt that they needed to take out a double insurance for their souls. The Catholic Church is alive and well in Colombia. For the record, I support the separation of the Church and the State myself too and am not a religious person.

Cheers,
Desi


"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang van Goethe

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 2, 2007, 00:26:

TINTO WROTE 'm not looking for an answer to that, but please show some tact and respect for the beliefs of others. If 10 or 15% of Colombia isn't Catholic, you're still insulting the 85% to 90% that are by saying Jesus Christ was a faggot and pasting a link to that website.

From the site rules/guidelines to posting:

"Be respectful of others’ sensitivities and backgrounds. There is a wide range of cultures represented on this site. What might pass for “refreshingly direct� in your hometown may be horribly rude to someone from another state or nation."


I totally agree with this, I think it's a lack of respect.

I do know the Anthem have to be update it, but I do respect the national anthem, and my religion and nothing is going to made change that and I wish people respect my believes. I think many comments here will offend many Colombians. If don't like it fine but not need to offend.

engage brain before opening mouth

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 2, 2007, 01:37:

Any religion respect the no religion respect the other one , they all have their own believe and they all think they are right, I don't think religion is the problem that has kept Colombia down all this years I think is another thing and it got a name. Colombians are catholic but we are not fanatics, many we don't go to church or follow some rules of the catholic church, but Jesus, is always present in our house, just go so many houses in Colombia, specially paisas and you will find pictures of saint and jesus everywhere. as you said the best is for an individual to find their own path and I said the best is for others to respect that path, mine is the catholic believe and because of that I live in harmony with each other so my family..

engage brain before opening mouth

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kalder says on Mar 2, 2007, 02:44:

Yes, the Colombian national anthem is beautiful. I put it on my wife's mp3 player, so it can be heard (if just by her) in Chez Kalder on a daily basis.

In comparison, 'God Save the Queen' is a dirge.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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juanalejo says on Mar 2, 2007, 06:45:

Simon I am anti Jesus because I believe in the freedom of religions or lack of them???? I surely hope you live abroad because that kind of thinking has not space in today´s Colombia. I am just glad most young Colombians I know think like I do, and it is a matter of time until the wording of our national anthem will be changed to exclude any religious conotation of any sort. And yes that day, the anthem will reflect the country I live in today.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 2, 2007, 07:26:

Rubi, I don't really care if you respect or not any religions; that's between you and your conscience. What matters here is that you respect the religious sensitivities of other people; respect the opinion of others, respect other people's convictions. Privately you may think about religions (any religions) whatever pleases you but you will NOT come to a community forum like this and insult and offend other people because they don't think the same way as you. Capici?

Cheers,
Desideria


"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang van Goethe

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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aztec says on Mar 2, 2007, 07:44:

packagegirl et al... ...don't be so rough on Rubito. He is expressing his opinion and one that we here in the States have been dealing with for years. There is considerable dialogue here and friction about secular versus religious influences.

It is a discussion that has important implications especially if you believe religion had an integral impact on the development of western thought and democracy. Many of us here feel as if we are under constant assault from the secularists. Especially, from the left and major media which here is one and the same.

My point is to emphasize that this is an important discussion that will not be resolved by shouting at each other.

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Simon says on Mar 2, 2007, 09:36:

"And it IS MHO that the fucked up beliefs of many Colombians has kept the country down for all these years. I think the further Colombia gets away from Jesus the more prosperous it will be!"

Rubito, then how do you account for the USA? It's the most prosperous nation in the world and has always had a strong Christian tradition! The USA believes and God has blessed them for it!!


Juanalejo,


I believe one reason that Colombia has sadly become such a decadent society in the last several decades is because it has strayed far from God's path. Unfortunately, many Colombians have replaced their love for God with love for easy money and this has led to the nightmare this country has become. Do you really think all those fucking guerrillas, paramilitaries, corrupt politicians, 'traquetos', and sicarios are people of true faith?

Secular progressives like you will only drive this country in the wrong direction.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 2, 2007, 09:40:

funny you said that simon the guerrilla plays double standars, in the towns that they control or controlled, they don't allowed drugadicts, prostitutes, thieve and gays and this is not inventation of mine, this are facts. and I remember years ago didn't they blew up an evangelical church.

maybe is a case of do what I said and not what I do.

engage brain before opening mouth

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juanalejo says on Mar 2, 2007, 09:48:

Simon I actually think you are mixing two different stories here. The decandence of parts of the society such as those have clearly posted are extremely linked with their religion, their God and their faith. It is actually those who do not allow their faith or beliefs to interfere with their daily life that have led this country across the most turbulent times it has lived.

You are free to believe what ever you want, this country guarantees you that. I am just glad people who are not able to respect the beliefs of others (what ever they are) are becoming less common by the day in this country.

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podborski says on Mar 2, 2007, 10:12:

I think it's very strange that some people think criticising a national anthem (and in a tongue in cheek way too) is taken to mean someone hates a country?

I hate 'Oh Canada', it's really embarrasing, and a ripoff of some classical music I believe, yet I love Canada.

Really, I love Colombians too, but some of you are really super- hyper sensitive to any opinion that is remotely critical of anything colombian. Honestly, there is no need to be so defensive, especially on this forum.

I just don't get it.

(FWIW: Star Spangled Banner is really, really inspiring. Church and state should be separate. Maybe one of the reasons the USA is successful is that they follow that rule for the most part.)

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 2, 2007, 10:35:

you right DG! you're right DG!

engage brain before opening mouth

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 2, 2007, 11:00:

did I said paras?

I am catholic must not fanatic, i believe in Jesus, Virgen Mary, Josehp, all the saints and the bible. I go to church sometimes, yep i do agree to reform somethings of the catholic church, but the believe is still there. I married in catholic church, and my kids have been christening in a catholic church, I took my confirmation and my first comunion too and went to a catholic nun school!. and as far as i concern when i was growing up my friends were exactly like me and I never heard of any catholic trying to convert anybody into our religion. my husband doesn't have a religion yet I never try to convert him into catholic, he just respect my belief he doesn't mind. the priest asked him if he promise to bring the kids in the catholic religion because we married in a catholic church he said yes! he doesn't mind either our kids being catholics if they want to.

maybe i am a lapsed catholic whatever that is :S

engage brain before opening mouth

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 2, 2007, 11:19:

Rubito, you know my mother was juez de la macarena she dealt with those people and i could tell you some things she had to deal with .. did you know that before the goverment took back the Zona del despeje, San Vicente del caguan used to have their own currency!

when my dad was hold by the guerrilla, he saw a boy being killed, he asked one of the guerrilleros why they killed him and they told him por drogadicto

engage brain before opening mouth

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 2, 2007, 11:27:

who doesn't have a good opinion of me? Or kat? No, I don't have many personal friends under the age of 30 which does NOT mean that when I'm in Colombia I don't talk to people under thirty. Most of my friends have children under thirty and I enjoy talking to them very much and hearing what they think about religion, for example. We just don't move in the same circles, rubito, that's all. None of my friends go to sleep at 5 a.m or use drugs, not their children either. Oh and none of them have second jobs monlighting at the zona de tolerancia and their colleges are paid by their parents, no prepagos either. The fact is that you live pretty much in a little nocturnal world of your own and what you see as normal or normative is just a fraction of the normal society in Colombia. Just admit it.

Cheers,
Desi

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang van Goethe

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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manINred says on Mar 2, 2007, 12:09:

" the country would lose two sets of its worst enemies at the same time! Brilliant!"

Well, in my opinion, the country would still have it's worst enemy, YOU Rubito, people who have had a particularly bad experience with something and use it to model their hate and anger and direct it at common, decent people. Yeah, I know one bad priest, so I know 'em all. Good thinking there mate.

Desideria is right, you live in a small, warped world and whatever your opinion is, fine, but don't use it to slander and bash something that is so intrinsically a part of many people's lives FOR THE GOOD! Oh you hate to hear that don't you, yeah bud, wake up and smell the roses, religion HELPS A LOT OF PEOPLE (myself NOT included) and you don't know all the catholics and your bullshit about it being extremely exclusive PROVES your ignorance and personal bias towards something you seem to be claiming to be an expert on.

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podborski says on Mar 2, 2007, 12:13:

"I'm not a virgin But I perform miracles"

slogan I saw on a t shirt worn by a very hot girl.

That's the kind of religion I like!

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goin_south says on Mar 2, 2007, 12:16:

well, Dongringo... THE FLAG IS PRETTY...just like the girls, but still the anthem.....it's putting me to sleep. At this point in time, Colombia has changed a great deal, since that anthem was written, and it needs a new tune,... a new song.

If Platano was around, I'm sure he could write a couple new verses for us immediately. Anyone heard from Platano lately?

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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Man Tequila says on Mar 2, 2007, 13:18:

Can't we all just agree that the Canadian national anthem sucks? I'm libertarian -- completely non-religious, support the separation of church and state, think religion plays a meaningful local role and helps many people, think religion causes considerable global conflict... but people have a right to their beliefs. Rubito phrased his objections in a way that was clearly going to offend a lot of people.

I suspect there is a link between anthem length and egotism. I have read the Greek national anthem is 158 versrs, and probably the Venezuelan one will be too by the time Chavez is finished ;) - I quite like the Colombian anthem - majestic and catchy . Religious imagery in anthems doesn't bother me.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 2, 2007, 13:28:

I have a question to those familiar with the new constitution:
Does Colombia or does it not continue having the concordato with the Vatican?
Is the Roman Catholic Church a state religion in Colombia or is it not?
Cheers,
Desi

Tequila; that's how I feel about the national anthem. It doesn't ruffle my feathers either, even if I'm not a religious person at all.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang van Goethe

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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goin_south says on Mar 2, 2007, 15:04:

wait til the market falls apart, tinto... he'll be shooting kids with paperballs and water guns again ;)

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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Simon says on Mar 2, 2007, 15:37:

"The evolution of GringoinBogota continues:

Three months ago: Liked to beat up punks in the street and argue with people on PBH

One month ago: More laid back, posts constructive stuff and doesn't care if people disagree with him.

Today: A veritable Philosopher King"

------------------------------------------------


He must be getting some!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Simon says on Mar 2, 2007, 22:39:

To me freedom means freedom to wipe your ass with the flag, or it just doesn't go far enough, in Canada, the US, Colombia, wherever. "No habrá censura" is pretty damn clear to me.

http://www.4extranos.com/

There is another example of the NEW Colombia.

--------------------------------------------------------

Dude, why don't you get a life and go worry about where you actually come from! Colombia is not your country and you act like it should adhere to your twisted beliefs.

Mire marica, no vengas a nuestro país a propagar sus creencias torcidas porque vas a salir quemado, oyó huevón?

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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goin_south says on Mar 2, 2007, 22:47:

I wonder also, why someone thinks of these things: (((To me freedom means freedom to wipe your ass with the flag,))) Don't they have enough Charmin or Northern in New York???

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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goin_south says on Mar 2, 2007, 22:54:

I'd like to see you in Colombia, wiping your ass with their flag,... I bet they'd beat the shit outta ya, more than for me making fun of Diomedes...jeje

Some say: All things are better in...Medellin! ....Oscar Lopez just says it's better.....LATE!!! (WHERE EVER YOU ARE)

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 3, 2007, 01:58:

rubito, Pelota de letras doesn't show the whole Colombia generation, pelota de letras is base on a generation from the capital, many Colombians can't identified with somethings in pelota de letras, I think it was Colombiche that said she could'nt find it funny cuz she was raised in manizales, another friend said this was more or less middle class in Colombia, the same with some people born and raised in la Costa for example, I agree the next generation always is going to be different they are going to add a little bit more to the past one but I think the moral,values and some belief that have been taught at home will follow behind. I can see the whole next generation in my family, my nephew 18 and my nieces 7 and 10, yet they respect the anthem, the flag, my nephew took his first comunion when he was 11, my niece is taking it next year, you see? belief can't be lost when is kept in the family through generation and respected.

they all go to church is semana santa, and special days. and this is some kids of the future Colombia, and his friends are the same.

the school always are going to teach the anthem, and Las izadas the banderas will continued. I think it will take many generations for the religious part in the national anthem to be taken off.

engage brain before opening mouth

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Monpirri says on Mar 3, 2007, 04:47:

Someone please tell me Why people who are anti God, anti Christ, anti religion, anti governing laws, anti cultural wants to be, visit, move to Colombia or the US?
There are couple of countries in the world that they do not believe in God, Christ or in protestants, catholics, jews or in any other religion and they are very successful countries.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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juanalejo says on Mar 3, 2007, 08:30:

Simon "Mire marica, no vengas a nuestro país a propagar sus creencias torcidas porque vas a salir quemado, oyó huevón?"

This says it all about the kind of Colombians we do not want living here, on one side they preach the "good" on the other they come out with this type of answer.

Perfect example of what guerrillas, paras, corrupt politicians, etc, etc, do in this country. They can care less about Colombia, they just want to turn the country into what they believe it should be...........regardless of what they have to do.

As I said before, it is so nice to know that this kind of attitude is considered out of line by most of the younger generations, those of us who will change this country making sure we get rid of this "religious" attitudes that have harmed Colombia far too long.

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Simon says on Mar 3, 2007, 08:43:

Juanalejo,
Sometimes you Juanalejo,


Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire!! Don't think that because one is religious that one is not gonna be willing to stand up to blasphemers!

I am honest and obey the law like most people of faith. Some of Colombia's most famous atheists on the other hand are in the jungles fighting the government, blowing stuff up, and holding people hostage.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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manINred says on Mar 3, 2007, 08:46:

Juanalejo, To be fair to Simon, it's easy to judge his cyber personality in the confines of an internet forum. It is also easy to make fun/goad other people and their beliefs and get reactions out of them, perhaps as Rubito has done with his rant against Christianity.

Now, pretend for a minute that you are a truly religious person and love God, Colombia, and Christianity because you believe that it has made your life and the lives of your loved ones better. Pretend it has been part of your life since you can remember. Now go back and read some of the brutally offensive stuff posted by Rubito. See how you would feel.

Now, I know Rubito makes some valid points, and his personal experiences have led him to convictions and beliefs that differ from many peoples' and that's fine, welcomed even, in a forum such as this.

That being said, from what I gather he is pro-'choice' in personal beliefs, pro inclusivity, but his insulting and I'll bet infuriating remarks mocking other people's personal beliefs (the remarks themselves hardly being congruent with his belief of inclusivity) certainly don't make him loved by people such as Simon. Simon perhaps doesn't know how to articulate his defense of what he loves, but I think that some of his rage and last ditch "converting" efforts are justified.

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 3, 2007, 08:57:

Constitution, religion, symbols The thread is way too long to read it completely, but I saw some jewels here and there that are worth framing. Anyway, for those who forgot:

The Republic of Colombia is constituted as secular, providing no priviliges to any religious creed--Catholic, Atheism, Buddhist, you name it--over any other.

Colombia, THANKFULLY, is not a Catholic country, proudly since 1991. So, in fact, if you miss the days when the Sacred Heart was a national institution (as in some outdated decree that someone posted here), you can start looking for another country.

There was an interesting (and quite informative) discussion some time ago, when the Uribe administration wanted to enforce a decree that required public schools to teach religion. I learned then that the Constitutional Court actually didn't take it down, but in its sentence it says that public schools should offer EVERY religious and secular alternatives that students and parents would demand in a religion class. Clearly not an enforceable law, so everyone forgot about it. Not Uribe, though. He just wanted to display, I guess, his conservative soul (most Colombians, I think, believe that rezanderos like Uribe can do no harm... we are soooo wrong).

Another thing. I wouldn't go as far as wiping my ass with the Colombian flag, but let's be clear about a couple of things:

1. Yellow, blue, and red don't combine. They just don't, it's a horrible choice of colors. We should keep them, though, for tradition sake. That goes not only for Colombia but for Ecuador and Venezuela too.

2. Under any standards, the National Anthem is poorly written. A few stanzas even misses some syllables. Its language is convoluted. Constitutional issues aside, the religious imagery is tacky. I still sing it in any futbol match looking to the sky, like a fucking gladiator, but something inside me cringes when I have to extend some "o"s to make up for the missing syllables.

Rubito: Now don't go about wiping your ass with a Independiente Santa Fe flag, or I'll hunt you down and make you eat it ;). I enjoy most of your posts.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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juanalejo says on Mar 3, 2007, 09:01:

manINred I have very little to say about somebody that comes and "preaches" and then insults people. That is exactly the double moral that abounds in guerrilla, paras and corrupt politicians in this country. All of those go to church and go to kill. Lets not forget that the guerilla has had several church leaders as their own leaders and lets even talk about how the church and the paras have been working hand in hand with the church making sure the "communist" threat is wiped out of the face of earth. Oh wait am I talking world politics?

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 3, 2007, 09:06:

History, people, history... "I am honest and obey the law like most people of faith. Some of Colombia's most famous atheists on the other hand are in the jungles fighting the government, blowing stuff up, and holding people hostage."

I know most paracos wear their Catholic faith on their sleeves, and ELN was formed by Catholics, including a couple of priests. I don't know about the religious inclinations of FARC people, but I would guess there are more than a few Catholics there. On the other hand "I am honest and obey the law like most people" who dislike religion. Or like it. Like most people, period.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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manINred says on Mar 3, 2007, 09:16:

Then why would you like Rubito? He has been the most insulting person in this thread. My anglican family would be shocked if someone where to have the gaul to tell them those things in such a distasteful manner, and I understand where Simon is coming from. So, he thinks the state should be religious as opposed to secular! Big deal! It's his opinion. He was not the one who started insulting someone else's set of beliefs, and I think that's the point here. He said follow Jesus tongue in cheek to begin with, then got more and more offended, more and more offensive in turn, etc... so the double standard here is clearly to only point the finger at Simon.

And by the way, if Rubito was going to voice his opinion in the outrageous manner that he did, I wouldn't want him having anything to do with my family (country?) either, they'd just get upset. As I said, he makes certain valid points, it's a shame that he has to do it in such a manner.

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 3, 2007, 09:19:

The Catholic Church doesn't help itself Msgr Alfonso López Trujillo, one of the two most important Catholic officials in Colombia is... well, choose your own words:

http://www.elpais.com.co/historico/sep012006/OPN/opi4.html

An 11-year old is raped and pregnant, and the Colombian law allows for her to abort the fetus. That's what any reasonable legislation allows for. Msgr Trujillo not only disagreed, but excommunicated all the medical doctors that had the duty to perform this intervention. Now, Msgr Trujillo and the Vatican can excommunicate whoever they want to, as far as I care they are a private entity that can say whatever it feels about anyone. I wouldn't even blink if he chose to excommunicate me. But it shows something about the medieval attitude of the Church that I am glad is completely disconnected now from the Republic of Colombia. I'm thankful to Mr. Uribe that, despite his own preferences, he hasn't tried too hard to reverse that.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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manINred says on Mar 3, 2007, 09:21:

And for the record, I have met hundreds of catholics in Colombia who are beautiful, wonderful people who still maintain their set of convictions and contribute to Colombian society in ONLY positive ways. Guerrillas and paramilitaries may pretend to be WHATEVER to gain legitimacy, what, you think they'll be Jewish in a Catholic society? Yeah, that'll gain them support! EVERY association of people has individuals that are a disgrace to their name. That includes Judaism, that includes Islam, that includes the NBA, the Premiership, and the British gov. We cannot use the guerrilla and paramilitary to put down catholics and catholicism. These things would exist regardless. I've met too many good people who adhere to these faiths to EVER put them in the same category.

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Simon says on Mar 3, 2007, 09:26:

"Colombia, THANKFULLY, is not a Catholic country, proudly since 1991."


Great, another anti-catholic! Regardles of what a piece of paper says Colombia is over 90% Catholic and that makes it a Catholic country!

Juanalejo,

Those 'so-called Catholics' you mentioned are not real Catholics. Anyone who goes to church and has people murdered could never be considered true believers, they just go to church to create an appearance of decency. The Italian mafia also does this.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 3, 2007, 09:30:

You people have to understand that Rubito, like myself, was born Canadian. We have labored to better ourselves in spite of having had such a handicap in life but every so often our origins display themselves.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 3, 2007, 09:33:

manINred "I have met hundreds of catholics in Colombia who are beautiful, wonderful people who still maintain their set of convictions and contribute to Colombian society in ONLY positive ways."

Absolutely true. Same thing goes also for many other religious denominations and non-religious, even anti-religious, people.

"We cannot use the guerrilla and paramilitary to put down catholics and catholicism."

In my particular case I only mentioned that in reference to Simon's comparison, insinuating that guerrillas are representative of Atheism. My reference to Msgr Trujillo, however, is whole different deal. He is a high officer in the Catholic Church, not just a regular joe. His decisions are, to a large extent, representative of the values of the Catholic Church, and excommunications are institutional tools of the Church. If Catholics and their religion do not want to be related to this kind of values, they should denounce Msgr Trujillo. Unfortunately, though, the Catholic Church, despite Vatican II, is still a vertical organization, so you may get excommunicated yourself for disagreeing with the cardinal. It must be really tough to be Catholic.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 3, 2007, 09:52:

"Regardles of what a piece of paper says..." .

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 3, 2007, 09:53:

"Regardles of what a piece of paper says..." Yeah, a piece of paper. The document that defines the Republic of Colombia. The one that you are supposed to pledge allegiance to, if you are Colombian, before any other document, Bible, Torah, Qumran, or whatever. If you don't follow the Bible, in the physical world at least, the worst that could happen to you is that Msgr Trujillo excommunicates you (big deal). If you don't follow the Constitution, you may end up in jail (for me, at least, bigger deal).

If the definition of a country as "Catholic" or otherwise is purely statistical, then I guess the *definition* of Colombia as a narco-nation is also correct (along with Afghanistan, we provide most narcotics to the world). I don't believe in statistical definitions, though, because they generally lead to misguided essentialisms and bizantine discussions about the exact percentage that makes a country "Catholic" or whatever. Boring shit.

I'm not "anti-Catholic," btw, I'm anti-stupidity. Like any other brand of beliefs, Catholicism has its own share of imbecility. To be safe, I like to keep it outside of our goverment. As for now, and hopefully for a long time, that's the law (written, y'know, in a piece of paper).

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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manINred says on Mar 3, 2007, 10:00:

True Sr Tertius But unfortunately, even if you do keep a set of religious beliefs outside of governent... you'll still find quite a sad degree of imbecility within gov. itself hehe.

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juanalejo says on Mar 3, 2007, 10:01:

manINred Sr. Tertius said it quite good, nobody here is anti-nothing except obviously Simon who insinuates that evil done by people has to do with those non-christians. There are good and bad everywhere but trying to say that a country is good because they follow a religion and because they don´t is going too far for me. And I also stand by those that say that thankfully the 1991 constitution gives all those who want to believe in what ever the right to do it without having to feel as they do not fit the mold.

As for the Catholic religion well it is their problem, the Simon type attitude is driving lots away into at least non practicing Catholics and many others into other religions, beliefs, etc.

As for me I find the Catholic religion extremely corrupt, yes many, many good people are Catholic, but most of them who I know are actually quite critical of their own church. Thankfully as the first step to become better is to acknowledge the many problems the have and face.

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manINred says on Mar 3, 2007, 10:02:

Utopicacowboy, guess what, i've got a secret! I too, despite my Britishness, lay claim to fame as a Canadian.

"You people have to understand that Rubito, like myself, was born Canadian. We have labored to better ourselves in spite of having had such a handicap in life but every so often our origins display themselves"

out of curiosity, and i don't take it as an offence at all (I actually find the way you put this quite hilarious actually) why is it a handicap?

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 3, 2007, 10:05:

"quite a sad degree of imbecility within gov. itself " Indeed. Thus, it's a choice of imbecilities. I prefer the secular type myself.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 3, 2007, 10:12:

I was displaying the classic Canadian sense of humor when I described it as a handicap. We're sarcastic sons of bitches is what I meant to say.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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manINred says on Mar 3, 2007, 10:20:

haha, well, i found it funny, which just goes to show...


and remember, while i don't find Simon over the top nor anti non-christian (just very pro-christian, which is different) remember how you would feel if your whole set of belief system is outright mocked.

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 3, 2007, 10:22:

Uribe's brand of Catholicism Interesting opinion, in the last issue of El Espectador:

http://www.elespectador.com/elespectador/Secciones/Detalles.aspx?idNoticia=6592&idSeccion=25

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Mar 3, 2007, 10:31:

Condemned to eternal fire "i don't find Simon over the top nor anti non-christian" I do, but I don't care that much.

"remember how you would feel if your whole set of belief system is outright mocked." If you are a good Catholic, you certainly shouldn't display wrath: That's a capital sin. In my case, the only belief that I whole dear, that truth comes from informed and rational debate, gets mocked in PBH on a daily basis. Fortunately, sardonic replies do not constitute capital sins, unless they are thought of as signs of pride. Oh, well, what can I do? I'm condemned anyway.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Monpirri says on Mar 3, 2007, 13:19:

Russia Cuba or Tinka bu are good places to live for those who are anti anti God, anti Christian, anti Judaism but why do you choose the good old USA or Colombia?

Annet