Hiding the Truth Already... On US military in Colombia

romy says on Aug 12, 2009, 10:39:

I didn't change the title of the article... I gave the thread my own title to express my discontent for these actions

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romy says on Aug 12, 2009, 10:40:

as you very well probably know, one of the biggest criticisms of these new military agreements is the immunity that US soldiers will have in Colombian territory

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romy says on Aug 12, 2009, 10:46:

you taught your kids how to post on internet forums?

explain why it's poor form? it's not inaccurate nor misleading, it's just the way things are and meant to open a more general discussion surrounding the topic instead of focusing just on this case.

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Rocco81 says on Aug 12, 2009, 11:01:

Romy, I agree that this is a horrible thing that this has occured and if these men are indeed guilty then they deserve to be sentenced and locked away for the rest of thier lives. Remember though, it still goes to trial and the men are not guilty until proven so.

I do want to say that it's false to assume that US soldiers are immune from punishment. Regardless of what the article is saying (not trying to say the article is wrong in this case necessarily) US soldiers are never ever ever given immunity to act in any way what so ever that goes against the local law and much less that goes against humanity (rape, murder etc)

Hell even in Iraq they have to ask for permission to fire and that is a "war".

Sic semper tyrannis

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romy says on Aug 12, 2009, 11:25:

of course I believe in innocent before proven guilty. This woman should not have been silenced though.
I should have specified, immunity from Colombian justice.

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Pappassito (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 12, 2009, 13:29:

lampltr says on Aug 12, 2009, 16:57:

I agree with you Romy as this is B.S., but as Pappassito stated & Senator Gustavo Petro, there has been no trial as yet. They will pay dearly "Double Jeopardy style" with the UCMJ if all this is true including trying to assassinate the mother....mama mia. If I was the dad, I would have a typical Colombian rural justice!

Anyhow, look at past cases in Japan with soldiers raping young island girls then attempting to shut them up....

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whitewidow says on Aug 12, 2009, 17:16:

I'm no doper! I just play one on TV.

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aussiesam says on Aug 12, 2009, 18:10:

if that puppy video is indeed true that's disgraceful. who wants cock heads like that walking around Colombia.

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romy says on Aug 12, 2009, 18:10:

yes lampltr, it has taken a while for there to be a trial.

I do not hate the US Pappassito, I just would like it to respect sovereignty a little more. I would be just as upset if Canada, Cuba, Ecuador, China, Fiji, etc. were trying to increase military presence in Colombia

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quantum says on Aug 12, 2009, 18:12:

Why am I not surprised? It just keeps gettin sicker and sicker....I hope they pursue thisone to the bitter end and nail their asses to the wall, if indeed they are guilty. And as I remember, (which can be dubious) it was in Okinawa where the big drama unfolded concerning the rape of a young local girl. And in that case, justice did eventually prevail, but not without a fight........

quantum

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billyb says on Aug 12, 2009, 21:19:

"I would be just as upset if Canada, Cuba, Ecuador, China, Fiji, etc. were trying to increase military presence in Colombia"

Can we infer anything by the fact that you left out the most likely one to try it belligerantly?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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romy says on Aug 12, 2009, 21:28:

dear billyb,
as always you are free to run your imagination wild with what my words could mean. However, reality has it that I write what I mean and I mean what I write.
if you need any word definitions dictionary.com is open for business.
your friend
romy

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romy says on Aug 12, 2009, 21:30:

Morakot, I have not been aware of any referendum. That a certain group of people decide to lease the country out to foreigners does not mean that Colombia has invited the US over. Sovereignty is the biggest issue.

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Dolfi says on Aug 13, 2009, 01:40:

Ever heard about the Haditha killings? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings)

Of course incidents like this are persecuted under US Law afterwards, but the only way to prevent them is having no US troops in one’s country.

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roloenNJ says on Aug 13, 2009, 03:32:

http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/930/68/

It is sad to see how US soldiers can just come to Colombia and do what they please in the name of Plan Colombia! Thanks URIBE

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 13, 2009, 04:14:

Rikito says on Aug 13, 2009, 05:17:

Senator Gustavo Petro is the one who should be silenced. He is a murder, kidnapper, drug distriuter, etc. In short a loser. He was a loser when he was with M-19 and he is a complete liar and loser now.

...and so it goes

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billyb says on Aug 13, 2009, 05:47:

"However, reality has it that I write what I mean and I mean what I write."

Not quite romy, but you are improving. I notice that at least now you are posting a disclaimer when you change the original title of an article. It is good to see you starting to value integrity.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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dwmte7 says on Aug 13, 2009, 06:40:

rikito........i'm not sure about anyone who came outta m-19....remember navarro wolfe? he's like any other corrupt politician now and boy was he the one to talk about his honesty and integrety when entering office. now the right hand knows what the left hand is doing. politician=plata=corruption=what folks in colombia have to deal with.

patriarch

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dwmte7 says on Aug 13, 2009, 06:42:

i'm glad that outside of visiting the family and vacations, these last 6 years, we've been spared the day in day out bullshit of colombian corruption. like a breath of fresh air.

patriarch

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billyb says on Aug 13, 2009, 06:50:

But Douglas, you live in Florida, hardly corruption free there, no?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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luce says on Aug 13, 2009, 07:00:

If an American does something wrong anywhere it's news. There are dumb and stupid Americans, even GI's! An American tourist can just as easily do something stupid like rape a girl or throw a puppy off a cliff - those are just sick people period. Sick people are the minority, but draws the news because it can be sensationalized. And what about the accuser - that politician. Always be wary when a politician wants to air somebody else's story - what's his own story? As I've said before most GI's are normal-folk Americans, not rapists or whatever else. Also, American GI's are not given any type of "diplomatic immunity" in any country - that's only for politicians. Politicians and soldiers are not in the same category. Any country has had ugly incidents with foreign diplomats of another country, again, that's just stupid people.

Loyal to both.

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davidslc46 says on Aug 13, 2009, 07:08:

The potential for evil exists in all men and men who are trained to kill others are at higher risk of aberrant behavior. It is obvious that the Colombian Military has a potential for evil.

This is rediculous steryotyping.

David

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luce says on Aug 13, 2009, 07:17:

I understand the Colombian Military has to answer for some very questionable actions, and those found guilty should be punished. But as was mentioned, that is rediculous stereotyping. Most (most, not all) Colombian military are next-door neighbor husbands and sons wanting to do a good job. A few evil ones can very quickly cause this rediculous steretyping.

Loyal to both.

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romy says on Aug 13, 2009, 08:33:

billyb- I'm glad you can read my mind. do you practice wicca or what gives you special powers?

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romy says on Aug 13, 2009, 08:37:

Luce- Petro is in the opposition, it's his duty to bring these things to light... of course it's politics. Also, the US refuses to allow its soldiers to face Colombian justice, I'm not sure where you get your info.

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billyb says on Aug 13, 2009, 09:33:

Semana.
http://www.semana.com/noticias-relaciones-exteriores/no-habra-inmunida...

No habrá inmunidad para militares extranjeros en bases colombianas
Juan Carlos Sierra.

La senadora Moreno aseguró que “el ministro tomó nota atenta de su sugerencia y que se comprometió para que no haya inmunidad por delitos comunes para los militares extranjeros”.
ACUERDO BASESEl Ministerio de Defensa se comprometió ante varios congresistas a que los militares estadounidensde no tendrán inmunidad por delitos ajenos a sus funciones, según dijo la senadora Alexandra Moreno quien estuvo en Palanquero.

En buenos términos y satisfechos con las explicaciones entregadas por el Ministerio de Defensa, la Comisión Segunda de la Senado regresó a Bogotá. Al termino de la sesión en la base de Palanquera, los siete senadores asistentes cumplieron con su objetivo de ser escuchados por el Ministerio de Defensa y expusieron los puntos que la Comisión consideran pertinentes para tener en cuenta en el acuerdo militar entre Colombia y Estados Unidos.


Sin muchos detalles a la prensa, algunos de los senadores contaron que en la sesión se discutieron temas de interés para la seguridad nacional y que las declaraciones entregadas por Gabriel Silva, Ministro de Defensa y el Comandante de las Fuerzas Militares, General Freddy Padilla de León fueron claras.

Las dos mujeres asistentes al debate, Cecilia López del Partido Liberal y Alexandra Moreno, del Movimiento Mira, expresaron sus inquietudes en el tema de inmunidad para los contratistas y extranjeros que operarían desde las bases. El senador Juan Manuel Galán refrendó que la posición de Ministro de Defensa había sido de garantizar que no haya inmunidad para los militares extranjeros.

La senadora Moreno aseguró que “el ministro tomó nota atenta de su sugerencia y se comprometió para que no haya inmunidad por delitos comunes para los militares extranjeros”.

Sin embargo, afirmó que la discusión no ha terminado y que la presencia de la Comisión Segunda del Senado deja claro que el Congreso no va a estar ausente del debate.

La Comisión seguirá analizando la situación y equipamiento de cada una de las siete bases militares que entrarán en el acuerdo entre Colombia y Estados Unidos. La próxima semana estarán en la base naval de Cartagena y así hasta completar la totalidad de bases inlcuidas en el acuerdo.

No obstante, el papel que está cumpliendo la Comisión Segunda se limita solamente a hacer peticiones y sugerencias sobre los puntos que debe tener en cuenta el acuerdo, porque quien define los términos finales del acuerdo es la Comisión colombiana de funcionarios del Ministerio de Defensa que viajó a los Estados Unidos.

Como se conoció esta mañana el texto final del acuerdo se dará a conocer al finalizar la semana.

Manuel Enrique Rosero, presidente de la Comisión Segunda del Senado dijo que en la medida que se escuchen las explicaciones de los altos mandos y del Ministerio quedaran mas tranquilos.

”Esperamos contar con el apoyo de la comunidad internacional para el combate del narcotráfico y terrorismo en Colombia”, puntualizó Moreno quien aclaró que sus palabras no son una amenaza para los países extranjeros, sino que es un tema de cooperación para resolver un problema interno.

Al finalizar la jornada Cecilia López aseguró que la falta de una política exterior ágil generó mucho problemas innecesarios “esperaba que el manejo diplomático para el tema de las bases militares hubiera sido mejor”.

El senador Galán reiteró su preocupación por los rezagos en fuerza militar y aérea y aseguró que se debe revisar el equipamiento militar porque los aviones tipo Kafir y Mirage, que hace poco adquirieron, cumplieron su ciclo hace 30 años.

“Hay que hacer un estudio de todo lo que significa tener una política de disuasión para un potencial ataque extranjero”

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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romy says on Aug 13, 2009, 09:55:

thanks billyb, I hadn't read Semana today yet. It's good to see that at least it seems like these people are going to try to uphold Colombian Justice which is very important. Sadly, if the US refuses, there's nothing Colombia will do about it.

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billyb says on Aug 13, 2009, 12:36:

"Sadly, if the US refuses, there's nothing Colombia will do about it."

That is probably true, but on the flip side is, that if they are tried under the UCMJ, they will most likely face a much harsher penalty than they would under the, ever so lenient, Colombian sentencing guidelines.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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miamimike says on Aug 13, 2009, 21:43:

I knew my Question on who would be funding this Largesse would come out sooner or later.
I get a kick out of how they downplay and word the funding but bottom line, the US Taxpayer will be on the Hook for the costs.


" a State Department official on condition of anonymity. Also included in the agreement may be ``modest'' U.S. funding for infrastructure improvements, he added."

In Political Double speak, Modest=Billions

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation/story/1183687.html?storylink=pd

Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte después Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte de

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dwmte7 says on Aug 14, 2009, 09:34:

well, mike....that seems to be the world we live in today...a trillion here, a trillion there....pretty soon it's serious money. and i can see that the fat cats in bogota are growling again so it's time to throw them one of those billion dollar bones. and after they grease each other's palms, they should be able to put up a road house in one of the proposed sites for a u.s. military camp, with what little change is left over. now you folks in miami should smile every time the u.s. sends money to colombia, as at least 80% of it comes back to miami.

d

patriarch

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gatogris says on Aug 14, 2009, 10:56:

Both in the case of the American soldiers, and the Colombian soldiers mentioned here, there is no contradiction in being good ol' boys and family men and monstrous child-rapers. History abounds with examples. I have seen the enemy and he is me.

Despite the horrific nature of these acts of violence and rape, those who commit these crimes and the systemic processes that permit them are ‘normal.’ In other words, the individuals enmeshed in these systems are not uniquely “monstrous” or pathologically different from ourselves so much as they are caught up in a monstrous structural network of relational pressures.

Have you ever read (or seen) "Full Metal Jacket?" They train soldiers to kill, and in order to kill, they need to make 'em mean and bloodthirsty. Why is anyone surprised when they go off the reservation a little bit and start raping kids?

As Howard Becker writes of deviant behavior, “we ought not to view it as something special, as depraved…we ought to see it simply as a kind of behavior some disapprove of and others value, studying the processes by which either or both perspectives are built up and maintained.”

You know, its like "fuck the System," man.

The US has trained paramilitaries in Colombia, the iniquitous El Salvadoran Atlacatl Battalion which committed the El Mozote massacre, and the sadistic Argentine torturers who disemboweled folksingers before kicking them blindfolded out of helicopters into a shark pool, so I think a few rapes here and there means Colombia is getting off lightly.

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romy says on Aug 14, 2009, 11:18:

Gatogris, would you say it's a lesser evil?

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dwmte7 says on Aug 14, 2009, 11:21:

gato............you show signs of too much time at the esselen institute under the tutelage of fritz pearls.

patriarch

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gatogris says on Aug 14, 2009, 12:17:

Romy,

What kind of person genuinely enjoys kicking in booby-trapped doors, setting up ambushes for teenage kids recruited as combatants, laying down a free-fire zone in a ville full of civvies, creating terror among those already frightened enough to provide cover for 'the enemy,' 'free-style' interrogation in the field, and executing targets and their families while they hide weeping in the john?

If you're the type of person who really finds deep and abiding satisfaction in that sort of work, if you really feel fulfilled when you squeeze the trigger and the baddies dissolve in a red mist, then the US military (and most other militaries worldwide) has a good job with reliable healthcare waiting for you in Colombia and elsewhere.

And up until the moment we decide we don't need these wolves in our midst, we will always be a few lambs short come shearing time.

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gatogris says on Aug 14, 2009, 12:28:

Douglas,

Esselen was the indigenous group and its linguistic isolate - you mean its namesake, the Esalen Institute.

I, like, DIG Fritzy's prayer:

I do my thing and you do your thing.
I am not in this world to live up to your expectations,
And you are not in this world to live up to mine.
You are you, and I am I, and if by chance we find each other, it's beautiful.
If not, it can't be helped.
(Fritz Perls, 1969)

Words to live by. For some.

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dwmte7 says on Aug 14, 2009, 12:43:

sorry the spelling.....age is my excuse.

i met ole fritz.....really kind of a egotistical prick. walked around like he had no shadow and that the sun rose and set on him. his prayer is kinda indicative of his posturing......"i'm me, who the fuck are you."

that was back around 64 ish at big sur hot springs. the winter of MY discontent.
d

patriarch

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gatogris says on Aug 14, 2009, 13:37:

Posturing poseur, that sounds about right, although it is kind of interesting that you could be valued as a public figure for spiritual/intellectual wisdom (even if fatuous) at that time in history, whereas up until very recently it was the Bernie Madoffs who were considered the sages and demi-deities of our own time.

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dwmte7 says on Aug 14, 2009, 14:17:

yeah, but ole bernie wasn't playin with dylan's, baez's and the deads money......fritz was. he even got the finger from leary.

ah! memories: drs t.leary, r. metzner and r.alpert. leary goes from west point to harvard to chair of the dept of psychiatry to selling land on the moon, r. alpert, becomes baba rum dum and metzner is still teaching at harvard. man what we lived through. apparently he was summa cum laudi at harvard and is the only person so far who's ashes have been dumped in space by nasa. just some trivia i heard after tim died, from old mates who ran along with me in those circles in that era. i think the world will come to see tim's young son as one of the IT world's great geniuses. soon he's probably 25 or 30 by now.

patriarch

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billyb says on Aug 14, 2009, 17:10:

Speaking of bernie, he not only was cheating his investors, he seems to have cheated on his wife, and his mistress as well.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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dwmte7 says on Aug 15, 2009, 04:23:

bernie, cheat? well i never...................

patriarch

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 17, 2009, 20:12:

http://www.eltiempo.com/colombia/politica/supuesta-violacion-a-menor-p...
Supuesta violación a menor por parte de estadounidenses no se ha podido comprobar

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Dolfi says on Aug 18, 2009, 00:56:

"El pasado miércoles los senadores uribistas impidieron que la madre de una niña -hoy tiene 14 años- violada hace dos por militares estadounidenses contara su drama. Gustavo Petro, senador del opositor Polo Democrático Alternativo, expuso el caso: la madre denunció el caso ante la fiscalía y desde entonces le llueven las amenazas. "Intentaron asesinarlas hace poco", denunció Petro, quien señaló también que los militares tenían un negocio de vídeos pornográficos. La madre y sus dos hijas huyeron de la población cercana a Bogotá donde ocurrieron los hechos. Los dos soldados regresaron a su país impunemente."

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/Inmunidad/medias/Colombia...

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