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Gringos in Colombia: An Object Lesson

First of all, watch this short (one minute) video before reading ahead.

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By Man Tequila on Mar 19, 2008, 22:19 in Friendly Talkzone.

Man Tequila says on Mar 19, 2008, 22:22:

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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usher127 says on Mar 19, 2008, 22:29:

I wasnt even counting the passes and I still missed it!

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RAAAY says on Mar 19, 2008, 22:31:

I did'nt watch the video..........but MT's statements are spot on...........

.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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Lostgringo says on Mar 19, 2008, 22:36:

Object lesson is????? Sorry Man Tequila I don't see how you came to your conclusion. Say do you find you have allot of time on your hands lately....lol

Your Home Away from Home www.welovebogota.com and www.apartmentinbogota.com "Luxury apartments and rooms Cheap" Only 2 blocks from the American Embassy! 24/7 hour security.http://www.monsterrakebacks.com Come gamble and get money back!

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Man Tequila says on Mar 19, 2008, 22:42:

Some folks are more lost than others?

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goin_south says on Mar 19, 2008, 23:13:

hey Tequilaconqueso.... is this another thread on : no dar papaya?
And,... will Colombians try to take advantage of an OLD, AGING GRINGO?
... jus asking, since... we ain't gettin any younger yet...j

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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DodgerDogs says on Mar 19, 2008, 23:18:

Colombia has 3 types of Gringos. And also the La Camp and Old Bongo types.
And a few lame ducks that fly south for brief stops.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King:

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goin_south says on Mar 19, 2008, 23:25:

Colombia has 4 types of Gringos.
(You forgot about La_Campiña)

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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goin_south says on Mar 19, 2008, 23:31:

disculpa, DD; that would be FIVE.
.... AND, si... I did feel as though flying with only one wing at times ;-)

... with a lil help, we may be able to get _Campiñaa outta de basement.

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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poco says on Mar 19, 2008, 23:36:

Ha, I TOALLY missed the bear.
'
This taught me to NEVER wear a bear costume and ride a bike in Colombia.

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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goin_south says on Mar 19, 2008, 23:47:

is it esluelita? or, is it... mark... antony?

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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RAAAY says on Mar 19, 2008, 23:55:

MarkAnthony says............" .The gringo created everything down to the wheel "

Actually....the wheel was not invented by gringos..............history tells us that the wheel was invented by folks over in the Middle East........specifically, what is now modern day IRAQ............hardly gringos....

As for putting a man on the moon............great video.......rumour has it it was shot somewhere in Arizona............

I'm sure you'll have a great time in Barranquilla............be sure and fill the locals in on your theory, of them being behind the " dumb gringo "........

.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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RAAAY says on Mar 20, 2008, 00:01:

Mark..........." Sadly, we have been so dumbed down by ignorant cultures "

It'a well known that, when an immigrant aqquires US citizenship....................................,immediately after the swearing in cermony, their I.Q. drops 50 points.

.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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poco says on Mar 20, 2008, 00:03:

Quote: I'm sure you'll have a great time in Barranquilla............be sure and fill the locals in on your theory, of them being behind the " dumb gringo "........

I'd suggest using Spanish ie: estupido gringo to achieve the maximum impact.

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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DodgerDogs says on Mar 20, 2008, 00:05:

Colombians: Think all Gringos are intillegent , and hard working. ( 80% right )

Colombians: Think all Gringos are wealthy.( 75 % wrong )

Colombians: Think all Gringos are submissive to their wifes and girlfriends.( 70% wrong )

Colombians: Think all Gringos visit Colombia to chase women .( 80% wrong)

Colombians; Think all Gringos exploit latinos in the USA ( 95% wrong )

Colombians: Think most Gringos are not aware of local prices.( 95% right)

Colombians: Think most Gringos can not dance Salsa , Cumbia or the Vallenato.(90% right)

Colombians: Think most Gringos can write magic letters for them to enter
the USA ( 99% wrong)

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King:

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goin_south says on Mar 20, 2008, 00:09:

Colombians think?
I thought they just stared....ja

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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Saltador says on Mar 20, 2008, 04:58:

jack jason,
Thanks for perpetuating more stereotypes. You'll fit right in on this board.

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Robert Jorge says on Mar 20, 2008, 06:12:

Arabs aren't caucasion?

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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Saltador says on Mar 20, 2008, 06:43:

Copying and pasting other peoples stereotyping makes you no better than the original stereotyper...
And Rocinante, most of us can get laid in the USA. But we prefer colombianas...no big revelation there...you can probably figure out why...

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Saltador says on Mar 20, 2008, 06:48:

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El Polo says on Mar 20, 2008, 06:52:

As far as the video goes I did not watch it, and just for arguements sakes, I really dont believe an accurate determination of wheter or not someone will be a vulnerable target in Colombia can be made via internet. Today virtually anyone can fall victim to, computer virsus, identity theft etc... even Mike fokin Tyson, does that mean he's gulliable in IRL? probably not. Anyhow I do agree with Man T, keep your wits about you, and eyes open, this can eliminate a majority of problems right away, also being witty and paranoid are two completely different animals not to be confused.

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tejasmarcos says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:00:

i counted 13, did not see the bear. i think the video make a good point - regarding cyclists.

i have never felt "watched" here. maybe noticed, but not watched in a creepy way.

however, in my defense, i have acclimated to my surroundings and try to blend in as much as possible. it is not much effort. i pretty much just stopped wearing shorts and i have never owned a hawaiin shirt.

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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Colombiche says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:08:

"Well historically Colombians and the rest of the 3rd world have been behind the dumb Gringo...The gringo created everything down to the wheel and putting a man on the moon..And how about this. Don't forget it! When the gringo is gone.. The civilized world is gone..I hope I'm not too subtle that you do not understand point..Sadly, we have been so dumbed down by ignorant cultures we will indeed be gone soon and you will be left with chaos. I will be in Barranquilla June and July. Keep an eye on this Gringo!" - MarkAnthony

Dumbed down by ignorant cultures? Are you sure you need to rely on other cultures to be dumbed down?

BTW You are a fountain of information, a walking encyclopedia.... and you are 100% correct that a gringo invented the wheel............. the ferris wheel LOL.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:15:

"That the cause of some people's eyes on Gringos when walking between us, and not because we think you are a superior human being or superior creature walking between us, which is what you think" Jack Jackson

It's human nature to stare at anybody that looks different, anybody that lets that get to their head has issues.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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jaramillo says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:19:

Markanthony, if there is an ignorant culture, it is the U.S. Kids here cannot find their own frickin' country in a map. Just what we needed: one more dumb gringo.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:24:

The wheel of fortune, yes...perhaps.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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sloopskipper says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:24:

"Dumbed down by ignorant cultures? Are you sure you need to rely on other cultures to be dumbed down?"

Yep, Colombiche, WE gringos are doin' just fine on that front, all on our own.

If people begin having trouble reaching the bar, just lower the bar.
__________________________________________________________________

Poor Marks For U.S. Education System
UN: S. Korea, Japan Top Best Schooling List; U.S. Near Bottom

GENEVA, Nov. 26, 2002
(CBS)

Education In America

(AP) South Korea has the most effective education system in the world's richest countries, with Japan in second place and the United States and Germany near the bottom, a United Nations study said Tuesday.

The ranking "provides the first 'big picture' comparison of the relative effectiveness of education systems across the developed world," the UNICEF study said.

"It is based not on the conventional yardstick of how many students reach what level of education, but on testing what pupils actually know and what they are able to do," UNICEF said.

It said it based the study on five different tests of 14 and 15 year olds to determine their abilities in reading, math and science.

The scores of the tests were disclosed individually in 2001 and earlier. What is new about the study is that it averages the results to give "the most comprehensive picture to date of how well each nation's education system is functioning as a whole," UNICEF said.

Dewayne Matthews, vice president of the Denver-based Education Commission of the States, said the U.S. showing in the UNICEF ratings was expected by people who follow international rankings in education and emphasized the need for reform.

"A lot of that has been driven by this perception that our schools are simply not good enough and they don't compare well with systems in other countries," Matthews told The Associated Press.

The blame or credit for the results does not go exclusively to a nation's schools, said the 36-page study, part of a series of "report cards" produced by UNICEF's Innocenti Research Center in Florence, Italy.

"It is clear that educational disadvantage is born not at school but in the home," said the report. "Learning begins at birth" and is fostered by "a loving, secure, stimulating environment."

UNICEF spokesman Patrick McCormick said the study had been unable to draw conclusions on a range of factors, such as how much was spent on education. Some countries spent less and did better.

The study also didn't get into whether extreme competition was a factor in Japanese or Korean results.

"We didn't really get into why. We found out that there was no one answer," McCormick said. "We tried linkages with the teacher-student ratios, with various things, and it didn't work.

"The biggest thing is obviously the socio-economic background of the child and how well-educated their parents are."

The study said that "South Korea and Japan sit firmly at the
head of the class."

"Germany, with its strong educational and intellectual tradition, occupies 19th place out of the 24 nations," just behind the United States in 18th place.

Germany is unusual in that it sorts children at an early age into professional, white-collar and blue-collar curricula, the study said. The German labor market's demands for particular qualifications "meant that the track a child ends up in has a particularly strong impact on later life," it said.

Germany and Denmark finished in the bottom half of tests on reading and math, but scored high in a separate evaluation of adult literacy, "again illustrating the danger of treating any one survey with undue reverence," the study said.

The United States, however, finished low in each test and in adult literacy.

McCormick said the study had not attempted to explain why the United States had fared badly.

"That's for them to pick up and run with," said McCormick. "It's that sort of country. The countries that economically are very diverse, with big immigrant populations, with lots of moving around, with a huge poverty gap, probably are going to show these sorts of results with education itself."

UNICEF said it based its conclusions on combining results of tests conducted by the Program for International Student Assessment, or PISA, conducted in 2000 and the Trends in International Math and Science Study, or TIMSS, given in 1995 and 1999. TIMSS is backed in the United States by the Department of Education and the National Science Foundation and globally by the International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement.

UNICEF said it also factored in results of the International Adult Literacy Survey of 1994 and 1998.

UNICEF said combining the tests produced "a more reliable overview" that helps meet criticism of any given test that may have been questioned for its cultural neutrality.

By Alexander G. Higgins
© MMII The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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Colombiche says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:27:

When I moved from Colombia to Canada it was like getting bumped back a couple of grades, the material we were studying I had seen in my colegio in Colombia years before. To Jaramillo's point, I will never forget how stunned I was at the poor level in geography and history class, I was the kid screaming out all the answers in broken english....

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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sloopskipper says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:28:

Duplicate

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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El Polo says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:28:

OK just watched the video, its does make a valid point, however I still feel the same about my last comment. (my stubborn side) jeje

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sloopskipper says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:29:

Duplicate

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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sloopskipper says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:29:

Duplicate

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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sloopskipper says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:29:

Duplicate

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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sloopskipper says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:29:

Duplicate

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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sloopskipper says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:30:

Duplicate

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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sloopskipper says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:31:

Duplicate

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:39:

Here's a newspaper article on PISA research results in 2006...a little more updated study. The great difference seems to be that in the Finnish schools there are not many weak students, because the ground work is done from early on to strengthen the underachieving students and bring them up to par, resulting in a national public school that has been best in all PISA studies three years in row now.

Cheers,
Desi

"Finland breaks point record in PISA study
PISA methodology criticised

print this

Success by Finnish schoolchildren in the latest survey of the OECD's Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) in the natural sciences has set a new record.
The Finnish result is significantly better than that of any of the other 56 countries surveyed. Finland came out on top with 653 points, 21 points ahead of runner-up Hong Kong.
The OECD officially released the results of the third PISA study on Tuesday. Advance information on the results had been leaked out earlier.

The figures for Finnish 15-year-olds indicated a very even result in sciences: the proportion of weak students was lower than in other OECD countries, and differences between individual schools were among the smallest of all participating countries.
Finnish pupils were also seen to have a more positive attitude toward. Studying the sciences than those of other OECD countries.

In reading skills, Finland has ranked highest on two occasions, and this time, only South Korea racked up more points. South Korea's rise has been fast.
Differences in reading skills for boys and girls were the second highest in Finland of all of the OECD countries. The reason given for this is that girls in Finland have improved their reading skills in recent times.

In mathematics, only Taiwan did slightly better than Finland. However, the average for Finnish pupils has risen since 2003.
Finnish boys did better than girls in mathematics, and the difference has grown since the previous PISA study.
All in all, Finnish school pupils have maintained good performance in all of the PISA studies, in 2000, 2003, and 2006, and the success is attributed to the achievements of pupils at all levels.
Professor Jarkko Hautamäki commented that the result gives the lie to claims that an excessive egalitarianism of the comprehensive school system in Finland would inhibit exceptional talent from emerging. He noted that four per cent of Finnish pupils reached the highest levels in the testing, while the average for all of the countries was 1.3 per cent.

Differences between individual pupils and individual schools were small in Finland, suggesting that the choice of schools is of relatively little significance in Finland.
Choice of school was seen to account for less than six per cent of the variation in the Finnish results, whereas the average for all of the countries examined was 34 per cent.
In addition to being egalitarian, the Finnish school system was seen to be cost-effective: the good results were achieved with relatively little expenditure. In the other Nordic Countries, the per capita cost of public education was significantly higher.

The PISA study has come under criticism from an international group of group of experts who question its scientifical validity, seeing it mainly as a political tool.
A total of 15 experts from seven countries have written a book criticising the methodology of PISA and suggesting that the results of the different countries are not comparable.

"The core problem is if PISA really measures that which it claims to measure", says Stefan Hopmann, Professor of Comparative Education at the University of Vienna in an interview with Helsingin Sanomat.
Hopmann feels that the types of questions asked in the PISA tests are "very Anglo-Saxon".
The group says that the results of the tests should not be used as a basis for school planning, because of their cultural biases.
The group of PISA critics includes Michael Uljens, Professor of Education at the Turku-based Swedish-language university Åbo Akademi.
Uljens says that the PISA studies are like "hidden curricula", aimed at persuading entire nations to adopt more competitive attitudes. " http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Finland breaks point record in PISA study/1135232362277

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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wendell13 says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:44:

A lot of US haters here and people that are just filled with hate in general

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tejasmarcos says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:47:

can't we all just get along? didn't i hear somewhere that Rodney King made a trip to Medellin on a peace mission?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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Saltador says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:50:

JJ,
Please don't tell me what I think, you got that one wrong. And the original poster may be a friggin idiot, but that doesn't mean all gringos are. Get a clue. Two wrongs don't make a right.

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RAAAY says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:51:

Wen............where are these US haters..............how is it being displayed..?

.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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tejasmarcos says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:54:

RAAAY - did you see the moonstepping "black aguila"?

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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RAAAY says on Mar 20, 2008, 07:58:

nope.....????

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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aztec says on Mar 20, 2008, 08:08:

"RAAAY says on Thursday March 20th, 2008 7:51:

Wen............where are these US haters..............how is it being displayed..?"

Is that a serious question?

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RAAAY says on Mar 20, 2008, 08:10:

You were talking about people on this thread...................I thought.....

If so,.............how is it displayed........

.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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sloopskipper says on Mar 20, 2008, 08:11:

US haters?

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 20, 2008, 08:20:

Perhaps you meant me? I'm neither a lover or a hater,

I watched the video and totally missed the bear.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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tejasmarcos says on Mar 20, 2008, 08:28:

it would virtually be impossible to spot the bear as long as you "had your eye on the ball". the people dressed in white and black basically become indistinguishable figures.

it is a tactic alot of magicians use as well. they distract your attention away from the "thing" that is used to create the illusion.

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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Saltador says on Mar 20, 2008, 08:43:

Yea, amazing what you don't notice sometimes. For example, I've been to colombia dozens of times, and have yet to ever have seen an oversized person with a red face wearing a multi coloured Hawaiian Shirt, short trousers with pockets every where (some times camouflaged short trousers), sun glasses and a rack back with an sleeping bag attached to it and walking down the street in a gray day.
Yet I know from PBH that there are thousands of these guys in colombia. Amazing.

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Saltador says on Mar 20, 2008, 08:47:

And the rest of the gringo uniform? Surely you wore that too... And I know you're old, fat and balding, and have never got laid in the USA without paying for it...right?

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Colombiche says on Mar 20, 2008, 08:48:

"Please don't tell me what I think, you got that one wrong. And the original poster may be a friggin idiot, but that doesn't mean all gringos are. Get a clue."

I am certain Mantequila was trying to be funny when he posted this, he knew exactly the kind of reactions his joke would bring. If there is anybody on this page who I would classify as being a friggin close minded idiot, it is definitely not him, he's painfully bright. :P

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Leeroy says on Mar 20, 2008, 08:55:

So - if I understand correctly, the point of the OP was to say that as a gringo in Colombia, everyone is always watching you. I am glad I don't have any history of paranoid schizophrenia in my family...

But let's analyse this for a second...

Fair enough, a gringo in a small town out in the middle of no-where might be the centre of attention for a while, as would a Chinese guy, but a gringo walking around the Zona Rosa in Bogotá? A gringo in Poblado in Medellin? A gringo having a toasted ham & cheese sandwhich at a cafe in a plaza in the old town of Cartagena? A gringo buying some trinkets in a shop in La Candelaria?

I personally have been in many areas and situations in Bogota and further away where people have given two hoots that I am a foreigner. As it should be.

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Man Tequila says on Mar 20, 2008, 10:46:

If I had any point, it would be not too take moonwalking bears too seriously. :P

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Lostgringo says on Mar 20, 2008, 10:51:

Object lesson: if you are a gringo in Colombia, people will be watching your every move, counting your every pass. You also may not be too aware of your surroundings. People might be trying to get away with any old thing. ;)

So let's look at this logic. Everyone is passing the stupid ball around and they don't see the bear. The bear is supposed to be the Gringo? No wait the people passing the ball around are the gringos and the bear is watching every move they make while it is doing the moon walk. The bear is the person who will try and get away with something? No no wait. The bear is not the gringo and the people passing the ball around are not the gringos. The gringo is the ball. Oh ya now I get it.

Or maybe it is supposed to tell you that people are too busy doing their work to notice a gringo amongst them. Pure unadulterated crap. I saw allot of this sociological crap at university called studies on human behavior. How in the hell you can jump a leap of fate and equate this with gringos is beyond my imagination.

You can call me lost all you want but this has nothing to do with Gringos in South America and Colombia in particular. You and all your buddies WILL stand out and for the most part you WILL be noticed. Sure in areas like la Zona Rosa for example you will not stand out. But I don't care how busy people are in Colombia they WILL take notice of you. Will you be able to pass unnoticed on a busy dance floor perhaps. So I guess you need to watch out for a dancing bear who does the moon walk. Paranoid? Just another stupid sociological study exercising stupidity in research and people with little to do in their lives.

Let's try a Rochat test next and see what people read into it. Oh look at that blob of paint there that's Gringo in Bogota...lol

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Man Tequila says on Mar 20, 2008, 11:09:

So what you are saying is that people WILL take notice of gringos?

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manINred says on Mar 20, 2008, 11:26:

"When I moved from Colombia to Canada it was like getting bumped back a couple of grades, the material we were studying I had seen in my colegio in Colombia years before. To Jaramillo's point, I will never forget how stunned I was at the poor level in geography and history class, I was the kid screaming out all the answers in broken english...."

That is not surprising. I agree that the standards of education in Ontario are pretty bad, especially compared to A-level Britain, and other European standardized education (Switzerland and Germany, for instance). It doesn't surprise me that education in decent high schools in Colombia is of better quality.

In slight defence of the Ontario system though (as misguided and indefensible as it is) your school was perhaps not the greatest example of an Ontario school (having grown up right beside it). It was one of the roughest and statistically worst in Toronto, Ironically when it closed down in what was my ninth grade, my neighbourhood school became what was and I think still is Toronto's worst school :)

"I love how somebody posts an article on how bad the US edcuation system is (which is pretty obvious) and people take it PERSONALLY. How UN-American is that to be upset that somebody criticises your country! We are SUPPOSED to criticise our country as good American citizens!"

Absolutely correct. That goes for every 'free' nation in the world.

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manINred says on Mar 20, 2008, 11:28:

Aren't the commercials in Britain of such higher quality than in North America? Yes, they are. By far. This commercial proves as much.

"Object lesson: if you are a gringo in Colombia, people will be watching your every move, counting your every pass. You also may not be too aware of your surroundings. People might be trying to get away with any old thing. ;)"

Yes, unless they don't know you are a gringo :) :) :)

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Man Tequila says on Mar 20, 2008, 11:37:

I always travel with lots of shoe polish. For my shoes. ;)

Free Video Hosting

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sloopskipper says on Mar 20, 2008, 11:52:

Rubito says on Thursday March 20th, 2008 11:04:

I love how somebody posts an article on how bad the US edcuation system is (which is pretty obvious) and people take it PERSONALLY. How UN-American is that to be upset that somebody criticises your country! We are SUPPOSED to criticise our country as good American citizens!

Is that also the way you read?:

wendell13 says on Thursday March 20th, 2008 7:44:

A lot of US haters here and people that are just filled with hate in general

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 20, 2008, 12:12:

This totally validates my behavior of putting on my bear costume and moonwalking at night through the most dangerous barrios of Colombia.

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Colombiche says on Mar 20, 2008, 12:20:

ManinRed, I wasn't referring to the schools in the Lawrence area. Mind you it still wasn't the greatest school but come on, these kids should at least have known that Ottawa was the capital of Canada.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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El Polo says on Mar 20, 2008, 12:53:

is it just me or did that monkey have some moves? NO WAY he was a gringo, he was cutting a rug!!!! jajajajaja

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poco says on Mar 20, 2008, 12:54:

Quote: if there is an ignorant culture, it is the U.S. Kids here cannot find their own frickin' country in a map. Just what we needed: one more dumb gringo.

That's probably true because many have seen a map and perceive the world as flat.

This is a link to a 40 MINUTE news documentary about the U.S. public school system titled

STUPID IN AMERICA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw

Desi: Watch the first 10 minutes,, they did a test comparison with Belgium students that spoke English. English? gezzz, impressive. Wonder the results if the test was in written in Danish or German and given to U.S. students?

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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mzzmerized says on Mar 20, 2008, 12:59:

Everybody always bashes the Incas for not inventing the wheel...ever consider how useless a wheel is in the Andes? The Incas had a sophisticated system of levers and pulleys, now why didn't the Mesopotamians think of that? Their surface was flat, perfect for wheels!!!

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 20, 2008, 13:27:

yes, I watched the first 10 minutes and it was interesting. One thing that is also discussed in the article that I postes is that it's not a question about money. Both Sweden and Finland have excellent public schools that are very cost-effective. We have a good level of basiceducation to all kids, not just rich or priviledged; we have to cut down on supplies and equipment sometimes, but every classroom has a relatively modern computer, the schools have small libraries, small gyms...nothing big and nothing very costly. We try to keep the classes small and all the teachers have to fully qualified for their jobs.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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CatGirl says on Mar 20, 2008, 14:10:

There is a saying: " IT IS WHAT YOU THINK IT IS"

....Unless of course you change your mind, then

Then yet again, " IT IS WHAT YOU THINK IT IS"

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 20, 2008, 15:05:

I'd rather pay taxes than have bad schools with students that sound totally clueless like the ones in that video. I'm not saying everybody is smart here either; we have our share of underachievers, clueless clowns and just regular morons, but ignorance like that exposed in that video is a terrible thing.

About cost-effective; it says inthe article I posted that the Finnish school is more cost-effective than the rest of the Nordic countries. I don't really know what it means; if the size of the classes is smaller here than in Finland or what it really is that would make the difference, because the school systems are so similar otherwise. There are two major reasons for the excellence in Finland, however: one being the relatively high status teachers enjoy and the second being the extra resources the weak students get from early on to raise the statistic bottom line.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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poco says on Mar 20, 2008, 15:38:

Quote: We have a good level of basiceducation to all kids, not just rich or priviledged

Several things. Watch the WHOLE film. Kansan city spent 2 BILLION DOLLARS and grades went down. The US has and continues to spend enormous amounts on everyone,, rich, poor makes no difference. War on poverty,, what's that? Has it exceeded a TRILLON dollars over the last 40 years? I see NO IMPROVEMENT and on the average I'd say a MIMUS result.

Notice that students weren't being BUSSED,, nope,, the school paid for TAXI's.

I get a property tax bill that splits the total,, Ha, the school TAXES are greater than the city taxes and trust me on this, Houston has one of the highest property tax rates in the country.

I seriously doubt Sweden spends HALF their budget for public schools.

This stinks.

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Mar 20, 2008, 16:30:

tomtom33....texas doesn't have state income taxes. they have to make up for it somehow!

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 20, 2008, 16:32:

It's very easy to spend dollars on the wrong ideas. Just take a look at spending on prisons in the US as a total percentage of our GNP, and our incarceration rates.

I think a big part of the problem with US public school system is actually a cultural one: We've become conditioned to accept failure. Also, the combination of relatively low pay and the "job for life" aspect of most teaching jobs leads to many schools accumulating a lot of dead wood on the teaching staff and many great teachers moving on to more rewarding situations.

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 20, 2008, 16:32:

The bottom line is... if some one asked me have you seen anything rare in the picture i would look for something else... but they only asked how many passes the white team did.. so really it was an specific questions ... i think

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CatGirl says on Mar 20, 2008, 16:38:

Kat: Yep, I saw the same - so if you are told to focus closely on a specific thing, of course that is all you will see....

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Mar 20, 2008, 16:50:

Tom - Yup, lots of toll roads and hefty sales tax (at least in Houston).

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Mar 20, 2008, 16:53:

Regarding the video, if the bear was wearing white you would've noticed it. But since the video told you to focus on the white shirts, you wouldn't notice the bear in black. In addition, your eyes are naturally drawn to the white and not black. I doubt the video would've been as effective if they told you to focus on the black shirts. The white shirts would've been very distracting.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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sloopskipper says on Mar 20, 2008, 17:28:

I watched the entire program http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw and it made me so ashamed of my country, the USA. Que lastima!

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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poco says on Mar 20, 2008, 17:39:

Quote: I'm guessing that Texas has sources of revenue other than the property tax.

OF COURSE,, even more, the more the better !!! The point is that over HALF the property taxes go DIRECTLY to the Houston Independent School System. A few years ago a SEPARATE check was required.

Home valued over a million?

Nice place asking slightly less than 4 million.
http://search.har.com/engine/dispSearch.cfm?mlnum=155706&backButton=Y

What are the taxes?
Humm, tax value is 2.6 million. Ah, only slightly less than $50,000 per year. When sold, the taxes will based on the sales price or,, about 25% higher.
http://www.hctax.net/propertytax/current/2007statement.asp?Account=083...

This type of research is necessary to make sure it's NOT YOU being screwed, it's you neighbor and for exactly how much.

Houstongal mentioned some items so I might add that the TEXAS LOTTERY LAW was passed because the money would be spent on education and they do spend two thirds on education.
---------------------
The Texas Lottery Commission has racked up more than $15 billion in sales since beginning operation in 1992. It contributes more than $1 billion a year to the state treasury; about two-thirds of the state's take goes to Texas schools.
---------------------
So I'd suppose the other one third is being spent on the Prison system because the school system is turning out future inmates faster than new prisions can be built.

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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Portena says on Mar 20, 2008, 17:56:

How did this go from watching out for cyclists and a moon walking bear to an analysis of the US educational system?

Prophesy is a good line of business, but it is full of risks ~ Mark Twain

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Monpirri says on Mar 20, 2008, 18:00:

i dunno. i have no clue, maybe it's a conspiracy engineered by the left wing

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Portena says on Mar 20, 2008, 18:06:

Funny, Monpirri ;)

Prophesy is a good line of business, but it is full of risks ~ Mark Twain

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poco says on Mar 20, 2008, 18:17:

Quote: How did this go from watching out for cyclists and a moon walking bear to an analysis of the US educational system?

There wasn't a voting button and you can only say so much about a bear.

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Mar 20, 2008, 18:19:

Oh come on Poco......anyone who buys property in Texas absolutely has to take the property taxes into account. I moved from out of state where my property taxes were a whole lot lower than here, and of course I took it into consideration before deciding how much house I could afford.

Yes the value of the home will be what you paid for it in the first year, but then the value went down significantly the following year and went down again the next year. I had to jump for joy considering I live in one of those area where the home prices have shot up and continue to increase. I budget for the worse (I don't escrow) and the bill comes in below what I budget.

Didn't you recently move here? Did you get caught off guard by the property tax amount?

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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podborski says on Mar 20, 2008, 18:26:

so the US is filled with a bunch of dummies, the pres is a moron, it's one of the youngest nations in the world, yet it has the biggest economy and is by far the most powerful.

I guess that says something about capitalism.

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Portena says on Mar 20, 2008, 18:41:

Bravo!

I will say that I attended public schools in several states, and the only good one was in Northern Virginia. Lots of congressmen's and ambassador's kids.

The US public school system tends to aim for the lowest common denominator in general - no child left behind - unless you are gifted. In that case you are likely to be bored out of your mind in many school districts.

Part of the problem may be the schools, on the other hand a lot of kids don't seem motivated to learn.

Prophesy is a good line of business, but it is full of risks ~ Mark Twain

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Robert Jorge says on Mar 20, 2008, 18:52:

I went to public schools in SE Indiana from K through Uni. My education from K-12 was horrible. And in high school, I could have cared less about my grades - I was looking over my shoulder everyday wondering who was going to try and beat my ass for sport. Luckily, I was born with a decent brain, and had parents who exposed me to books and were highly educated themselves. Otherwise, I shudder at the thought of where I would be at if I had no family influence on my education and formal school was the only source of knowledge.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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Portena says on Mar 20, 2008, 18:57:

I know exactly what you are talking about, Robert Jorge! My parents took me out of public school in Florida after stabbings occurred on the buses. In Alabama another student threatened me with a knife on the bus and I managed to de-escalate the situation and avoid a stay in the hospital. Didn't bother to tell my parents - it was just another day at a public school as far as I was concerned.

Prophesy is a good line of business, but it is full of risks ~ Mark Twain

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RAAAY says on Mar 20, 2008, 18:59:

Arrived in New York.......young ( well, youngish ) and green.............started going out with this girl from Long Island............mid level exec with Barnes and Noble........college educated.........sharp as a pin.........

We're driving past LaGuardia airport one day. I said to her, " I obviously know why Kennedy airport is named, after President Kennedy, what is the thing about LaGuardia ? Why is it named LaGuardia ? I dunno, she says, I think it is named after the New York State Flower.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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RAAAY says on Mar 20, 2008, 19:31:

For a college educated, young, intelligent American.........with huge potential..........she was as daft as a brush..........

And she was one of the smart ones.

.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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poco says on Mar 20, 2008, 19:48:

Quote: Oh come on Poco......anyone who buys property in Texas absolutely has to take the property taxes into account.

Did I say they didn't?

You asked if I moved here !! I'm a native. I've been to HCAD so many times to protest taxes that I had a reserved seat.

Some counties in Texas didn't charge property taxes if you retired in that county, so every county has it's rules. I should have said HARRIS COUNTY,, because Houston has many incorporated municipalties, each with their own method and cost structure.

The high property taxes had the result of keeping property values down. Did you know poor retired folks were FORCED to move because they couldn't pay the taxes? What !!!! the government involved in forcing someone to move, that can't be right,, can it?

How many have lost a home to TAX forclosure? Think it will make the news? Maybe the government will help them out,, that's why we have them,, isn't it?

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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manINred says on Mar 20, 2008, 21:44:

"ManinRed, I wasn't referring to the schools in the Lawrence area. Mind you it still wasn't the greatest school but come on, these kids should at least have known that Ottawa was the capital of Canada."

haha, fair enough. Granted even the 'better' public ontario school system schools really don't compare to perhaps levels of education of the 'better' public schools in Colombia (I wouldn't know, you would). They certainly don't to England or Europe, as I said. Oh well, I came out alright, but had to do two simultaneous high school diplomas (ontario and European, surprise surprise high nineties average for Ontario, average results for the European) ;)

I think the original point of the post can refer to any situation in the world!

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goin_south says on Mar 20, 2008, 23:54:

rocinante... you need counseling for all that anger, boy...lol

you are, in fact, by definition,... a gringo... aren't ya?
Oh?

What's with all the absorption about ALL (oh, so few!) the gringos in Colombia?
I think you're really overwhelming yourself about a situation that is hardly noticeable upon the planet.... it's all in your mind and the one you take from pbh.... another little tiny microcosm of the planet.

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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goin_south says on Mar 20, 2008, 23:58:

""How UN-American is that to be upset that somebody criticises your country! We are SUPPOSED to criticise our country as good American citizens!""

Rubito...... did you slip, and partake of the poisonous whole grains???

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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Lostgringo says on Mar 21, 2008, 00:02:

houstangal you are the only person that understood the concept with regards to this video. The video presentation is about perception. How we validate it.

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goin_south says on Mar 21, 2008, 00:16:

I thought: IT IS,..... WHAT IT IS...
cause sometimes... I can't even think about it ...

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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goin_south says on Mar 21, 2008, 00:16:

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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goin_south says on Mar 21, 2008, 00:16:

f*ck off... you and anyone else, who never have 'post repiticiione'... jjaj

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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goin_south says on Mar 21, 2008, 00:16:

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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Robert Jorge says on Mar 21, 2008, 01:11:

Not trying to hijack ... but: My freshman year in high school, I had a group of dudes wanting to beat my ass constantly. I am sure it was fun for them, but it was terror for me. So one day, I knew the guys were going to come to my house. I hid a 20 gauge shotgun in a tree. Sure enough, they showed up and were getting ready to get out of their car. I took the shotgun out of the tree and pointed it right at them. They left within 10 seconds.

There really isn't more to the story. The guys who wanted to fight me had no beef with me - they just enjoyed the humiliation and terror they caused with me. That was their motivation. And, that is why I didn't give a shit about grades in High school. College, another excuse.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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goin_south says on Mar 21, 2008, 01:12:

quack... will send ya to the basement

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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Lostgringo says on Mar 21, 2008, 01:15:

This particular psychological trick played on your mind is referred to as "inatentional blindness".

The number of passes with the ball were irrelevant to what the video was about. The point of this demonstration was geared towards a feature of human psychology. That is, when we concentrate on one specific task at hand that demands our attention (counting the number of passes), we can become virtually blind to details that aren't relevant to that specific task. Even details that would, in other circumstances, would be obvious to us. For example, a man in a gorilla suit moon walking through the crowd.

Inatentional blindness is what stage magicians use when doing their many tricks. This is why the tactic of miss direction works so well. It's also what con-artists use like to us.

This is a relevant demonstration for a number of reasons. Cognitive scientists use this experiment to show that people can be dubbed. Try this trick on someone…spell SPOT. Ok spell it again but do it faster. Ok one last time say it as fast as you can twice. Now ask them WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU COME TO A GREEN LIGHT? 99.9% will say that they STOP! The power of persception is very strong.

Another misdirection trick is to say to a person….ok now your driving one of those big colorful buses through Colombia and you have 88 passengers on board. 8 of the passengers are children. You travel from Bogota to Medillin and you drop off 2 children and 10 regular children. You take on 6 more adults and 1 child. You then go to Cali and you drop of 6 children and you pick up 20 adults. You go like this for a while making sure they count the number of passengers…misdirection..then out of the blue you ask them……WHOS DRIVING THE BUS…99% will have no idea it was them…

I am truly inspired by all of the posts here that clarified this experiment in terms of education in Ontario whatever. Truly amazing lol. BE NICE SAYS THE MONKEY!!!

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 21, 2008, 02:53:

Houstongal I wasn't even looking at the shirts i was counting the passes, my eyes were on the ball all the time, when i counted 13 i felt very proud of myself hehehe

then he told me about the black monkey, bear, whatever

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sloopskipper says on Mar 21, 2008, 04:21:

I didn't count the passes, only casually watched the video, but still never noticed the bear.

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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Juanes says on Mar 21, 2008, 05:27:

when posts refer to gringos are we referring to las personas nacieron en estados unidos ?

i never got called green go once in months in 2007 in colombia, more like papi o mono o rubio o joven but i heard it so much more in central america, particularly costa rica y mexico y nicaragua, can there be such a thing as a Euringo for the people in the EEUU, i dont like being asociated with the triumphant US battle against the mexicans when the then president of mexico sold his compadres out.

si tengas una camiseta argentino y conozcas muchisimo castellano es muy muy facil para andar en las calles en colombia sin paracer como un gringo.

http://www.travelblog.org/Bloggers/Juanes/

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podborski says on Mar 21, 2008, 05:29:

I think the bear wasn't in the first clip, it's a trick!

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jaramillo says on Mar 21, 2008, 05:37:

Thank you all for some very interesting points. Thanks Desi for the info about the Finnish system. I'll have to take a closer look.

Robert says :I was born with a decent brain, and had parents who exposed me to books and were highly educated themselves." I think we cannot overemphasize the role of parents. Money is not the answer here any more than it is in medicine (The U.S is going bankrupt over the cost of medicine).

Finally, houstongal and lostgringo have pointed at several psychological factors affecting the response to the bear video. As usual, with psychology there are physiological correlates that are significant. "Keeping your eye on the ball" means that the image of the ball is cast on the fovea of the retina. Therefore, the bear image is cast in the periphery, where photoreceptors have very little ability to discriminate detail. So we do see a figure moving through, but we cannot tell any details. Therefore, we see nothing unusual. The bear is just one more dark shape moving in our peripheral vision.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 21, 2008, 09:00:

RJ, my US public school experience was almost EXACTLY like yours. It's really makes me totally rethink how I want my own kids educated. I remember arriving at college and suddenly encountering a bunch of my peers who had actually been to high quality private schools where they didn't need to devote 90% of their mental energy to trying not to get their ass kicked and where the teachers treated them with respect. Those kids, who were no smarter, were so much better prepared for a real academic environment and challenges.

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Lostgringo says on Mar 22, 2008, 03:55:

Hollywood there is always someone who breaks tradition so-to-speak. There is always someone you have heard of who fought tooth and nail to get somewhere. That motivation and dedication does not always have to come from parents who have money. But it would be foolish to think that a family with money would be on a level playing ground in terms of educating their children, compared to a low income family. I certainly agree with your comments.

I remember attending university as a mature student and competing against kids who had everything paid for them. They didn't need to work at part time jobs to get them through university. They had no worries about where the money would come from to pay for their education and they had lots of time to study. Sure I had lots or real world experience but in retrospect I would have rather had the money to pay for my education without working a part time job. To make matters worse the universities I attended used the Bell Curve. So, getting an A was very difficult to do.

If I were going to look at education in terms of this video I would compare it to Universities nowadays. I am not talking about local community/college education. Universities run meaningless degrees to validate the universities and to pay their miserable salaries. Very few Universities have programs that they teach whereby you can graduate with a degree that puts in the top 10 percentile for work in any particular area.

For example, what kind of job can you expect if you have a bachelor's degree majoring in psychology or sociology? Or, better yet, how about a bachelor's degree majoring in philosophy? These degrees are basically not worth the paper they are printed on. But the universities continue to promote these disciplines and enjoy reaping the monitory benefits they get from their students. It's allot of smoke and mirrors. They promote many of their worthless degrees to unsuspecting students. Unlike community colleges which usually have their pulse on what educational programs are really needed to gain employment.

Many university students get caught in the hype of a "well rounded education" syndrome. A student spends 4 to 6 years getting a masters degree and has a hard time finding employment when finished. A student coming out of a community college say with a 2 year "diploma" in animation gets offered all kinds of jobs left, right and center and for great money.

But nothing much has changed with allot of universities as they continue to promote outdated and useless courses to students. And these students continue to line up for their worthless degrees in a well known universities. This all reminds of Pink Floyd's another brick in the wall. LOL

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 22, 2008, 04:51:

Mr hollywood wrote "This totally validates my behavior of putting on my bear costume and moonwalking at night through the most dangerous barrios of Colombia"

LMAO

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Cerealkiller says on Mar 22, 2008, 05:48:

Hmm I think you guys are giving yourself too much credit here. I think us Colombians (or any other 3rd world nation for that matter) don't look at the gringo tourist and think: Smart, hardworking, familyman, beaten by wife or otherwise. Bottomline is we honestly couldn't care less...all we see is dollar signs, doesn't matter if you're bill gates or a bricklayer... same difference. If you go to Colombia on holiday it means you have got some money to spend. No one goes on holidays empty pocketed!!!

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Mar 22, 2008, 06:28:

Lostgringo - Any student getting a bachelor's degree in psychology, sociology or philosophy should know (and shame on them if they don't) that they will need an advanced degree to get a job.

I have a BA and MA in Psychology. I knew going in that I would need a Ph.D. in order to be a practicing clinical psychlogist or teach at a university. I didn't go the clinical route and didn't need to complete my Ph.D. in order for me to work in my field (Industrial-Organizational psychology).

Employment prospects in this field is excellent with a MA or Ph.D (in case anyone has any college-aged kids interested in psychology), which I can attest to after spending 3 years as the the Placement Center chair for the professional society.

The universities offer such degrees to feed into graduate programs. And getting employed when coming out will depend heavily on the field in which the student has chosen to work.

If they're smart, the would have done their employment research before declaring a major or choosing a specialty area (and even which school they selected matters). If they didn't do that research, the blame should be on the student and not the university.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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Man Tequila says on Mar 22, 2008, 10:32:

"I am certain Mantequila was trying to be funny"

Yes and no. Mantequilla knows funny, and knows this isn't it.

I think "shit disturber" would be more accurate. ;)

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Lostgringo says on Mar 22, 2008, 11:08:

houstangal I have to disagree with you somewhat and fully agree with Tomtom. You spend close to 8 years at a University to get a Ph.D. A good college education at a technical school will give you as much if not better than you would make as a Clinical Psychiatrist or whatever. Maybe in the USA you can get good employment with an MA but it is necessarily so in Canada. I have a MA so I think I am qualified to talk on this issue. You will have to make back 8 years of your life if you go for a Ph.D. A person plumber will have had his house, boat, car and his settlement from his 1st divorce paid for before you finish university LOL.

Yes many of the bachelors degrees are just feeders leading into something supposed to be better. 4 years in Canada on average for a bachelors. 4 years of your life for a lousy bachelors degree that may get you an entry level job being overworked in a crummy government job. Oh, yes now spend another 2 years for you masters. And while your at it take another 2 years for your Ph.D. Let's see now that's 8 years of university. And, on a personal level (not aimed at you houstongal), I have some of the brightest Ph.D students studying psychology. Strait A on their transcripts. And guess what. These people were complete morons when it came to interacting on a personal level with people. Again, I am not pointing my finger at you. But many of the people I met taking their Ph.D in psychology were so high on themselves and conceited that they could not relate to another person's feelings.

In terms of being smart some idiots like me took a bachelors degree and a masters degree thinking that I would be able to find employment really easy. Everyone pounded this in my head as did the universities. The univerities do NOT care about youy finding work with your degrees. They are there to support THEMSELVES. Most of us are hoodwinked into thinking a university education will open all kinds of doors for us. It simply is not true. If there is a demand in specific fields like medicine then ok, but for the most part a university degree only shows an employer that you are able to comprehend information and that you are dedicated.

I have allot of people and to tell you the truth I would rather have someone who doesn't have a degree, who is dedicated and who has learned what they need to know on their own. I don't need a good computer programmer to have a degree I need them to perform certain tasks. That's it.

Just my opinion I do not mean to offend anyone.

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Mar 22, 2008, 12:00:

No offense taken Lostgringo. My brother is a mason so he didn't go the university route. That was his choice and he was making $ while I was a starving grad student (OK....not starving, but assistantships don't pay a whole lot). He hated school anyway.

And you're right....there are some bright Ph.D.'s in my field as well, but some are amazingly stupid at doing a simple thing like getting a job. I couldn't believe some of the questions these 20-somethings were asking me as Placement Center chair. My co-chair and I ended up writing a "tips" document on how to behave during the conference because employers were complaining about the stupidity of some of these people who were trying to get a job.

Too many of them behave as if they're entitled to getting a job once they get out. A university can only do so much. They can provide tools, counseling, workshops, etc. then the rest is up to the individual. On the other hand, I found the good ones were easily able to land a job and make my volunteer position worth .

After spending 14 years in HR, I agree that dedication and the right attitude is far more imporant than a degree. Unfortunately, most employers (mine included) require a degree for *most* professional jobs. And there are too many other managers out there who only want the best and brightest. Used to drive me crazy trying to get them to understand that perhaps a solid performer would be better than the high-potential.

Too bad you won't be in the Philippines in May. But if you're in the country, let me know and I'll buy you a drink.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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jaramillo says on Mar 22, 2008, 13:02:

To think that a person is better off with a two year degree, is a matter of opinion, and I can respect that. So, although I have a Ph.D., I take no offense. But to say that, regarding universities, "They are there to support THEMSELVES", is a coarse lie. No offense meant.

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Colombiche says on Mar 22, 2008, 17:20:

I think "shit disturber" would be more accurate. ;) -- mt

I am perfectly aware that you wanted to see if you can get everybodyès panties in a knot by posting a moonwalking bear........ and you did.....

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Mar 22, 2008, 17:24:

How the hell do people end up talking about PHDès after seeing a guy in a bear suit moonwalking....

Damn quebecois keyboards where the heck is the apostrophe...

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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jaramillo says on Mar 22, 2008, 17:30:

that's how conversations work :)

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Colombiche says on Mar 22, 2008, 17:32:

Cest la vie....

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Mar 22, 2008, 19:07:

Colombiche - We just can't watch a video like that without reading into it!

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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Portena says on Mar 22, 2008, 19:14:

I think Freud would say it is a process of free association.

RE: For example, what kind of job can you expect if you have a bachelor's degree majoring in psychology or sociology? Or, better yet, how about a bachelor's degree majoring in philosophy? These degrees are basically not worth the paper they are printed on. But the universities continue to promote these disciplines and enjoy reaping the monitory benefits they get from their students. It's allot of smoke and mirrors. They promote many of their worthless degrees to unsuspecting students. Unlike community colleges which usually have their pulse on what educational programs are really needed to gain employment.

A bachelor's degree in psychology pairs particularly well with pre-med and business degrees. When I got my bachelor's degree in psychology I worked as a research assistant, a supervisor at a youth home, and a psychiatric technician. There are any number of social service type jobs one can get with a bachelor's degree in psychology. However, if your goal is to make lots of money, bachelor level social service jobs definitely aren't going to make you a millionaire.

A good college guidance counselor would inform students of realistic employment and academic options should they choose to pursue a bachelor's degree in psychology.

Anyway, I've met plenty of intelligent people who never went to college and did quite well financially in running businesses of their own in construction, lawn service, tree trimming, etc.

Prophesy is a good line of business, but it is full of risks ~ Mark Twain

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podborski says on Mar 22, 2008, 20:40:

uh oh I think my recent orneryness (?) must have rubbed off on man t

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Man Tequila says on Mar 22, 2008, 21:32:

I'm not sure what I was thinking when I posted this. I thought it was different and so made some light hearted comments. I don't think they were full of orneridad. I showed the video to some people at work and one nurse couldn't see the dancing bear after five tries.

I didn't think people would start analyzing the uselessness of sociology. Truth is, I didn't think about this much at all. Colombiche is perceptive, but I'm just not that interested in knotting panties. Most of the people on here overthink things way more than I do; I'm pretty spontaneous (more so than CB, I would wager) and only a little ornery.

If I wanted to show anything, it was the difference between two different web sites.

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podborski says on Mar 23, 2008, 05:35:

I know you're not ornery, I was kidding and I just couldn't think of another word

I agree, I think people analyze things to death, and take everything far more seriously than they should, maybe me included, sometimes anyway.

I still think it's a trick video and the bear isn't in it the first time you watch, only all the following times : )

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Mar 23, 2008, 11:16:

MT ornery? But he is pretty serious with his cooking Pod. As much as I would've like to have helped him out in the kitchen, I could tell it would be best if I stayed out.

So MT....what is the difference between the two web sites?

And boys....happy Easter!

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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Lostgringo says on Mar 23, 2008, 17:51:

Jaramilo wrote "To think that a person is better off with a two year degree, is a matter of opinion, and I can respect that. So, although I have a Ph.D., I take no offense. But to say that, regarding universities, "They are there to support THEMSELVES", is a coarse lie. No offense meant."

I may have been mistaken somewhat but I am not a liar. No offense meant. I do believe that most of the courses that the universities promote are just exercises in verbal dirrareah. Strong works I know. But if universities (not all), were so good why are community colleges doing so well? Most universities have lost touch with reality. Reality in terms of what is needed in the work force. Colleges for the most part have honed on this and they promote their education to address niches in the market place.

Are universities and colleges diametrically different? Perhaps. But in many ways they overlap. You can ofter take courses in psychology for example at a college. Many of these courses are transferable to universities. It's much cheaper to go to a College too.

My problem was that when I attended university (actually 2 universities and 3 colleges), I didn't have the resources people have today. If I had, I would have chosen another career. Although, in the bigger picture I did quite well for myself.

All I am trying to say here is that universities are the not the end all for education. And, that colleges are a great resource for a good education and as an alternative to traditional universities. Like the video many prospective students are blind sided by the idea that having a university education will open all doors and the money will come pouring in. Have you ever heard of a university that stopped teaching certain courses because there was no application for them in the community.? Your local colleges do this all the time.

What is the most important thing you come away with when you study at Harvard or Oxford University for example. It certainly isn't the education. What you come away with is contacts for your future. Joining or belonging to certain alumni is more important than your grades. Granted there is allot of good courses and disciplines but we shouldn't be hoodwinked into thinking that ALL university education is BETTER than ALL the education you can get at your local community college. And let's not forget that Bill Gates does not have a real university degree. Honorary yes, but he never finished university. He stepped out of the box universities love to creat. That's all I am trying to say here.

For me (just my opinion), universities for the most part are "old school." I would rather go to an 'innovative" university or college and learn things that are applicable in the real world than mundane theories for instance about Freud and his cocaine adventures with hypnotism, psychoanalysis and so on.

I'm shooting myself in the foot here because I have a university education. I often ask myself now that I am retired what can I do now with my education. The answer is nothing. A degree in the soft sciences is worthless in my opinion. And working at low level jobs with government agencies is not a nice way to make a living (in my opinion of course). All it shows is that you went to university for x amount of years and you had the ability learn. Hell, a degree from a university doesn't even show your grades.

I have a friend that used to be a fireman in NewYork. He is retired living the good life in Colombia. He has no degree. He has a pension much larger than mine. Who's smarter here? LOL.

Be nice says the monkey lol

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Portena says on Mar 23, 2008, 18:30:

Some parents do tell kids they won't get anywhere without a college degree - so I know where you're coming from Lostgringo because it's not necessarily true. As you pointed out there are many factors involved in success, not all academic or requiring college degrees. However, if you want to be a surgeon you do have to go to medical school, and an advanced degree and license are also required for many other professions including clinical psychology.

As Houstongal pointed out one should conduct very thorough research into a profession or career path before investing a lot of time and money.

Prophesy is a good line of business, but it is full of risks ~ Mark Twain

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Man Tequila says on Mar 23, 2008, 19:57:

I'm not ornery, but it was certainly best you stayed out of the kitchen when I was cooking at Pod's place. Smuggling the lime kaffir leaves to Argentina got me placed on some sort of US customs black list, they've sent me to the agricultural section the last three times I've passed through.

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Mar 23, 2008, 20:34:

Absolutely agree with Portena. If kids go to college just because their parents told them to, without knowing what on earth they want to do when they get out, without knowing whether or not there would be a job available at the end, then I'm not surprised that they're unemployed or unhappy.

In this day and age, research is a must. I had an intern this summer who is one of those bright kids that made good choices. She decided to go to a very small college and majored in accounting. She wasn't thrilled about accounting, but her other option was general business and she knew that would've been a bad choice when she graduated.

She has an interest in going into HR and we talked about various degrees should could get (MBA with a concentration in HR, MA in Industrial and Labor Relations from one of the top 3 schools, or Industrial/Organizational Psychology). Now that's doing research! I made sure she spoke with HR people with all 3 degrees (we have them all in our company) to help her make her decision. That's the kind of research that's necessary in order to succeed.

For those who aren't sure of what they want to do, community college is a great place to save some $, figure that out, then transfer to a larger university. And yes, Lostgringo, you're right.....a big-name university will give you contacts and name recognition. Unfortunately, there are many companies and people who do pay attention to where you got your degree.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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travelingirl says on Mar 23, 2008, 22:14:

Someone mentioned "success" earlier. I think that's a pretty subjective term. Sometimes I wish I could just be happy with a run-of-the-mill job like friends my age have. But alas, I'd simply die if I had their mundane jobs, that others perceive as being successful b/c they have new homes, new cars, and 2.5 kids.

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travelingirl says on Mar 23, 2008, 22:22:

Haha, true... I'd take the new house and car if someone gave them to me, but you couldn't pay me to take the kids right now. ;)

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Lostgringo says on Mar 24, 2008, 07:34:

tomtom33 that is exactly what I was trying to say.
traveingirl also understands the idea of stepping outside of the box. Many of us through the media, home, schools etc., become complacent with our thinking. We think we are free thinkers but many of us are programmed by society in terms of how we should think and behave THINK ORWELLIAN (sp). Look at Colombia for example and people on this board. Ask everyone here and I will bet you over 90% will tell you they have friends or family that think they are absolutely crazy for going to Colombia, even for a 1 week vaction. Maybe as high as 99%. Why is that?

It's kinda nice that PBH members can talk to each other about their experiences without everyone jumping on them with stuff like..grow up, smell the coffee, what are you thinking of, the list goes on and on.

Two of my favorite songs sum it up nicely (I think).

The Eagles...Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the place I was before
'Relax,' said the night man,
'We are programmed to receive.
You can check-out any time you like,
But you can never leave!'

The meaning of Hotel California was based on the notion that many people go there for the glitter, fame and fortune. Maybe they also meant HIGHER EDUCATION lol. And once we are consumed with this lust we can never go back to what we were before. That's a whole other topic that would take days to digest.

Hey Jesus Christ was a carpenter. What's wrong with being a good carpenter? From what I understand in many European countries a plumber and carpenter are regarded as trades with some prestige. They learn how to become a carpenter for example starting in grade 9. They actually teach them all day long all week to be a carpenter. What a novel idea.

Pink Floyd summed it nicely with ALL WE ARE IS JUST ANOTHER BRICK IN THE WALL

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Albatross says on Mar 24, 2008, 08:43:

What the hell is a Gringo anyway ?

Most of the people calling us Gringo's are of Spanish descent, which is barely discernable from Italian and Portuguese and is not all that different from French or English.

Is an American of Spanish descent a Gringo ?

What about a Spaniard, Italian or Romanian... are they Gringos ?

Basically what we have here is a bunch of transplants from Southwestern Europe insisting on calling anyone not transplanted from Southwestern Europe "Gringo"... whatever.

I wonder what Spaniards call their offspring in the Americas ?

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Colombiche says on Mar 24, 2008, 08:53:

Most of the people on here overthink things way more than I do; I'm pretty spontaneous (more so than CB, I would wager) and only a little ornery. -- man tequila

Nice try Mr analytical...... :)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Man Tequila says on Mar 24, 2008, 09:44:

Sweetie, just because I can be analytical doesn't mean I'm like that most of the time. I learned at a young age how annoying that can get, so sometimes keep my thoughts to... ice cream truck! Back later!

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Mar 24, 2008, 10:26:

Travelingirl....I'm with you! I would go bonkers with mundane. Heck, I get bored being in the same job for more than 3 years (OK...this one is different, but I'm sure at some point I'll be bored)!

Lostgringo.... my brother was a bricklayer and my Dad a carpenter. Physical labor is tough. My brother screwed up his back b/c from lifting tile and brick and ended up on worker's comp. I like doing that stuff on the weekends, but I'll take my cushy job any day. Different strokes for different folks. That's what makes the world so interesting!

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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Lostgringo says on Mar 24, 2008, 10:47:

houstongal I am with you. When I was younger I used to work on the oil rigs and was a miner for awhile. I really enjoyed getting sweaty and dirty. Silly I know but I did enjoy it..back then. I am only saying that I have allot of respect for tradesmen/women. Are those trades better than having a university education. It all depends upon where your are standing. I respect anyone who does almost any kind of job in the world as long as he/she is trying to the best they can.

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podborski says on Mar 24, 2008, 14:40:

hey man t, shouldn't it be 'abject lesson'?

just being retroactively anal

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Man Tequila says on Mar 24, 2008, 22:46:

Eject lesson.

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goin_south says on Mar 24, 2008, 22:49:

Tg... I feel certain, someone could pay you enough $$$ to take the kids, too. ;-)

nothin I say is to be takn for my words, but rather for the words of Sailor Jerry.

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travelingirl says on Mar 24, 2008, 22:56:

I dunno.... how many millions of dollars are we talking about, GS? Are the kids potty trained, able to feed themselves, drive, perfect little angels and otherwise able to take care of themselves? How long would have I have to "take the kids"? Just a few weeks or a lifetime? If the latter, I think I'll pass until I decide to have my own. ;)

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