Gringos, Colombia, Travel and Women

fzrdan says on Jan 24, 2005, 20:42:

If you really want to go, then you should go. Just be smart and gather information about where the 'safe' places are. Don't walk around there like you are in Disneyland. Do a search of this site, you will find plenty of good info about security. The FARC? If you stay in the cities where all the beautiful women are (you say that is what you are looking for), you don't have to worry about the FARC. You have to worry about: some schmuck kicking your ass (or stabbing/shooting you), stealing your wallet and jewelery (please don't take your rolex to Colombia, it will not leave). Maybe getting run over by a damn taxi or bus if you aren't careful crossing the street. Getting some disease when you visit a prostitue cause you can't get a lovely caleña to date you. Falling in love with some hottie that just wants you for your money......

There are plenty of good looking women there..just like any other country. Just depends on the type of woman you are looking for. Go to a disco, buy a bottle of ....can't remember what it is exactly, sit there in your gringoness and the girls will flock to you.

Don't listen to me though. I don't live there and have only been to Cali once.

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go grin says on Jan 24, 2005, 20:47:

thanks Hey thanks, fzrdan, that sounds like very useful information!

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fzrdan says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:12:

go grin I hope you detected some of my sarcasm. All of those things are true though. Be smart is the most important thing and don't walk around in a daze. Look like you have a purpose. Comprende?

What I said about the disco is very true also. Someone else here can tell you exactly what bottle of alcohol it is the girls seem to like. I can't remember. If you go to Cali, hang out at Chipechape (spelling?) food court. Talk to someone in English. If you are alone, talk to your food or something but make sure you speak in English. You will be amazed.

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fzrdan says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:16:

roofus, you poor guy. Damn, I am stayin out of the hills where those Fuc. As. Rebel Colombians are. I like my nuts and don't like anyone urinating in my mouth.

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go grin says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:23:

gooey My, how life can change so quickly, son... I recommend mouthwash

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:26:

If you know some Spanish or even if you don't, the chicas love it when you speak Spanish with a gringo accent. I was engaged and later married so I was not interested but man, I used to have some incredible looking women cooing and smiling while I spoke my fractured Spanish. It works in reverse for my stepson here - the girls at his high school go nuts when he speaks English with his Colombian accent. My wife rarely talks English but when she does, she knocks my socks off - damm, she's cute with that accent! I asked if it was the same for her when I speak Spanish to her and she said, "Por supuesto!".

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:29:

go grin----Dont't go !! I wish I could be as optimistic as fzrdan. But I cannot. Telling you to "be smart" and go to safe places...etc etc..to me is simply a not sufficient info for a person to go alone. I can tell you want to go, and you are going to go anyway no matter how many people tell you that you should not. But I have to say, if you don't have family there, or you don't have close friends there, and my opinion given the level of violence, I would reccomend that you NOT go alone. Period.

I am a Colombian American so I don't say this easily, but aisde and apart from the FARC, common street crime is also quite high. Kidnappings theft, and street robberies occur as well. I mean, yes Colombia has beautiful women, but to go to a country because it has beautiful women does not make sense. Chile has beautiful women, and so does Costa Rica. Be safe. Be smart. Avoid Colombia at this time

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go grin says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:31:

Espanol Thanks for the advice there, utopia. Soy hablo un pequito espanol, so I guess I might be ahead of the game maybe.......

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go grin says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:33:

Thanks Gomez I will take your words into consideration

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fzrdan says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:35:

gomezman I told him not to listen to me. I have only been there once. What the hell do I know? I walk around with rose colored glasses on because my trip was so great.

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go grin says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:40:

Safety I know what I will do, I'll drink 2 bottles of Tequila and then go lay in the dark alley with several gold rings, watches etc... would that go over well? jajajajaj.... jus kidding

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:41:

The problem here is Almost everyone here acts like this web site is an extention of Colombia's bureau of tourism. What these people don't tell you,is that almost all of them have some relationship with Colombia either because they are from there (as I am), or they have a spouse or girlfriend from there. The net result is, that there is aplace in thier heart for Colombia and they have the benefit of going there not as a tourist, but as a guest who is going to be accompanied by residents who will make certain that you only venture into very secure areas....

I repeat, if you are going alone.....don't go.In some ways, it bothers me like heck, that these people don 't recognize that no American should ever go there alone unaccompaned by a Colombian familiar with the territory

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:46:

fzrdan... Hey, I know that friend, and I am happy that all went well for you.
But, all I am saying is the odds are not good. I mean damn it, your not just talking about a vacation...you are talking about your life.
I gamble...when I go to the casino. I will not tell another to gamble with his life. it just does not make sense. Look, it's just stupid to tell someone to go to a country to check our a bunch of hotties...and you know that what happening here, when it's just not safe

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:52:

I hate to say this but Gomezman does have a point. I've said this before but one day, my oldest stepson, my oldest daughter and I all walked over to the square in front of Nuestra Senora de Belen. It was a nice day and we enjoyed sitting outside watching everyone. I asked my stepson if it wouldn't be possible for American tourists to come there and enjoy themselves. He disagreed. He said if they were by themselves without someone to watch over them and guide them, invariably something bad would happen to them. The Colombians do tend to be worry worts when it comes to gringo visitors but I am sure they know their own country better than we do.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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elviajero5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:52:

Life expectancy goes up if you stay indoors Hey, life is full of risks, like everyday when you turn on your car and drive onto the highway. Sure there are risks if you travel to Colombia, but if you exercise caution you should be okay. What good is life if you cant go out and live it.

I am going to Colombia this Friday because I heard it is fun, culturally interesting, and yes because the women are supposed to be good looking. and I am going alone.

I am Mexican American. My parents wanted to kill me when I went to Mexico City for 2 months, but I had a fantastic time. I traveled to Brazil alone, barely speaking a lick of portuguese, but that was the best trip of my life. I definitely took some risks going to "unsafe" places, but I was clearly willing ot make that tradeoff. In fact, in all my travels, the only time I almost got mugged was in Sevilla, Spain so go figure.

Sure maybe colombia has some risks, but so does life, and we should try to live it. just be smart and exercise street smarts and you should be ok.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:53:

Come on guys --really wake up!! You are all going to be real happy one day, when you are giving advise to these people to go and be careful, and then you never hear from the guy again. And then, some way, some how, by some strange circumstance, you hear that the guy was kidnapped or killed by a street side criminal. Look, last week, my dear friend was standing at a bus stop in down town Cali, at 6 PM waiting for a bus, and some fool came up to her in front of a dozen people, pulled a knife on her to rob her of her cell phone and her cheap gold plated pulsar watch, they could have justed as easy stuck the kife in her.

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fzrdan says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:53:

go grin You could always use the services of someone like JamieJ. He is a gringo living in Barranquilla. He runs an introduction service. I am sure he will look out for you if you use his service. Can't recommend anyplace like that though.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 21:58:

Utopia ---thanks but you are also exactly.... what I am talking about. You're gringo, and married to a Colombiana
(paisa???) whatever...And when you go to Colombia, family is going to meet you at the airport---not a taxi. You have already been there many times. You have family there to guide your every move--to tell you which places are more or less safe since you were last there. Even then, they don't let you go alone...just to make sure that you don't go venturing into the wrong areas.....

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miamimike says on Jan 24, 2005, 22:00:

Go-Grin Come to Miami Go-Grin--you don't have to travel to Col. if you want to meet a Colombian Lady. Lots of them here--at the Col. Independence Day Festival in July 100s of 'em roaming around the festival. There are several tabernas in south miami(not south beach)and it is not unusual to see 3-5 single women at a Table and no guys. Just follow the same precautions here--no flashy gold jewelry, no Rolex Watches ect. In the past year, 3 Latino Rolex owners have been killed in Miami for their watches so the same caution advisories that apply to Colombia apply to Miami.Know who is behind you and you will do fine. Good Luck.

Avatar Legend: Bush "If any of you Reporters are wondering, it was a Size 10"

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Lionheart says on Jan 24, 2005, 22:06:

do it like I did I put an ad in Amigos.com, had contact with several Colombianas (more than you can handle even if you can write emails and chat 24/7), then go for it ... visiting the best picks per city, they will take care of you or feed you to the dogs if you can't live up to their expectations. If in doubt, better take Viagra with you.

My story is different, but basically that's how I started.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 22:16:

Hey..Hi Lionheart and Miamimike!! and Fz--comeon yea Go grin.....listen to Miamimike and Lionheart....
Look..it's just that many of these people here like to turn a blind eye to the situation. It's just not safe for a guy like you, who is unfamiliar with the territory

Fz, is telling you to hook up with some guy in Barranquilla. Please, unless you have a love or family there, Barranquilla is a pit (sorry Elmo). If you want to see beautiful morenas, go to the Dominican Republic. They have beautiful girls--gorgeous! It's cheap--there are always resonable package deals. They have great beaches with gorgeous girls walking around in tongas all day. Very close and above all, all the tourist areas are safe and well patrolled and the girls come to YOU!!!! And, you can practice your Spanish because most of the local girls do not know English

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fzrdan says on Jan 24, 2005, 22:19:

scare story Ok, gomezman, I will post my own scare story. I posted this earlier in the Avianca thread.

My novia tells me this story of a woman who owns/works at the internet cafe she uses. The woman was killed yesterday over her car (something to do with her car anyway) very near the cafe. Now, on the webcam I see this big ass knife she is carrying around today because she wants to be ready. CRAZY. If a caleña thinks she needs to carry a huge knife to walk around her own city, what chance does a poor gringo have?

I wasn't recommending anything other than that he could use a service like Jamies. I don't know squat about Barranquilla. Hey, I met this gringo living in Cali when I was there last time. He could probably help you out if you went to Cali. I'm not giving up his information here now, but if you want it, I will ask him if it is OK. And gomezman, you can't deny there is a ton of beautiful women in Cali.

I believe that if you have a pair, you will go. If not, stay home. Simple.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 22:21:

Cartagena----forget it My above site says it all. If you are going from the states....Colombia is too expensive..no package deals. Cartagena is rediculously expensive for a gringo. There are no direct flights from the states. Hotels have package deals for Colombians and Europeans. I live in Chicago. If I walk into any travel agency, even the ones that specialize in latin American travel, they will ask me right away,,,"why do I want to go there?" By the way, Cartagena beaches are----very so-so. I like Santa Marta better

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 22:26:

FZ---you are only making my point man If a resident of Cali does not feel safe there, then why reccomend
Cali to a tourist?????????????

Look, I have made my point. I am waiting for the defense forces like my friend ColombianoX to come out here and plaster me to the wall. Actually, I think he is a great guy. He really cares and loves Colombia, and I really appreciate his Meet Mr...so and so. But, when I say something negative about Colombia, it burns him alive.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 22:32:

Morgus... If you are coming from the states, the air fare is very expensive. There are no direct flights from the states. You will have to fly to Bogota and then fly back to the coast. Right now, the air fare from the state to Bogota is at least $650. Add another $200 for air fare
brom BOG to CTG--that $850. Hey man..for 850 you can get a week in Sanot Domingo or Punta Cana, air fare, hotel, meals--EVerything--and much, much nicer beaches in the Dominican Republic than Cartagena-----No comparison

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fzrdan says on Jan 24, 2005, 22:36:

gman...i was serious. He shouldn't listen to me. I don't know anything about the dangers. I am just telling him that he will like the women there if he has enough pelotas to actually go. He asked about the women. I told him.

Honestly, I know it is dangerous but I would be there right now and stay for a few months if I didn't have to work for a living.

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Lionheart says on Jan 24, 2005, 22:40:

my novia is in Cali I'll feel safe there with her ... a few here heard how she was able to fend herself here as pantera in Spanish a few days back, I wish I had saved that thread just to learn the words, I can't find one in a dictionary. I saw some family photos, makes Elmo look like a whimp, they are indios giving the FARC a hard time in their neck of the jungle. They already said they will take care of me wandering around (and take care of me if I fool around, as well.) Colombians are like mother hens.

So go grin, get good connections first, take your time, you won't regret it.

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miamimike says on Jan 24, 2005, 22:44:

Gomezman--How about those specials to Buenos Aires?/ They have a lot of really cheap deals to BA going on here in Miami--some listed at $389 for 3/4 days and you can watch those sevelt Tangueras gliding around.This is a Deal!! Lots and Lots of Miamians heading down there presently.

Avatar Legend: Bush "If any of you Reporters are wondering, it was a Size 10"

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 22:57:

Morgus, miamimike, Lionheart, Fz Morgus
Cuba is great!!! I want to go there so much. But.....I am a lawyer and I cannot lawfully go there. Also, no package deals from the US.
The DR is cheap, safe, great hotels, great women, and easier to get to. Also, in the back of my mind, if Fidel decides to get spastic while I am there in Fidelandia, I don' want to be there when it happens.

Miamimike
Agentina...is different. It's also very very far from Chicago..hey, it's far from Miami. The airfare is high too. Also, if he is looking for hot chicas and real warm weather...I think he should stick with some place closer

Lionhert
You are wearing those pink glasses again.

Fz
Your'e alright...I know you have the best of intentiions. Believe me, if I could get out of this freezing cold stinking office in Chicago, I would LOVE to be in Colombia now....I also miss my family there.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 22:59:

BTW i'm getting tired and my typing is for crap this evening/morning!!

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miamimike says on Jan 24, 2005, 23:06:

Gomezman--Guadalajara, Mexico This is a great city with great climate and close. There are some 50,000-70,000 americans living there-reletively safe by latinamerican standards otherwise all these 1000s of US retirees would NOT be there or keep coming. They have many Beautiful friendly women also and a fair amount of discos to head to.Many nice day trips-Lake Chapala, Puerto Vallarta for the beach. Lots to do and pretty cheap for us.

Avatar Legend: Bush "If any of you Reporters are wondering, it was a Size 10"

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calipro says on Jan 24, 2005, 23:10:

Hey, go grin If you don't feel safe going to Colombia by yourself you can go with me. I'll be heading to Cali on the 10th of March.

Besides I need someone to hold the women down while I take pictures of them. I mean help around while I take pictures of them. hehehe!!

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 23:16:

Miamimike---- I have been to Guadalajara over 10 times. I have a very good friend teaching there. I know the city well. Great shoes for great prices.
I have been to Chapala, Tecalitlan, and what's the name of that place nearby??????with all the mariachis. Anyway, I Love Mexico, but for real how women....forget it. Also Mexican women are much much more conservative. They don't dress nearly as sexy as Colombian girls

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 23:18:

But Calipro is another option Hey Calipro, if you are willing to take care of Grin and make sure he goes to safe places...ok fine Now that is another story!!!!
But alone --- no way!

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miamimike says on Jan 24, 2005, 23:25:

Plaza Central Gomezman-that place where all the Mariachis gather is the central plaza. Usually they start warming up around 5pm--sometimes 10-15 groups all at once. Really a sight and sound to behold. I will stand by what I said about the Women from Guadalajara--go to EL Centro at noon and sip a beer outside and check out the Office girls as they cut across the Plaza--many blond and brown haired,(not all those mexicanas have black hair) blue/green eyed Beautiful Ladies walking around.In the Upscale discos there these women would not take a backseat to any women as far as looks. IMHO. Seeing is Believing.

Avatar Legend: Bush "If any of you Reporters are wondering, it was a Size 10"

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ARMacleod says on Jan 24, 2005, 23:31:

scared about visiting what might be the most beautiful country I've ever seen........? Where? The most beautiful country, how could you compare if you have not been in Colombia? Photographs?

Sorry, Perhaps it is just that I am an old cynic, but all your obvious questions, worries, have been answered in full so many times already. After all, you state that you have been reading the site for many months.

I may be wrong completely but as I say your post seems as if there is something missing


Being of unsound mind and dubious disposition, I cannot be held legally liable for any indiscretions."¡El diablo me hizo hacerlo!" But don't worry, be happy.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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Lionheart says on Jan 24, 2005, 23:38:

just kidding I do have an odd sense of humor too .... maybe that is why others think Germans are cold, because nobody understands their jokes and humor ...

To put it in realistic words ... I feel safer knowing that I have locals with me in Cali .. and I will listen to their warnings very well. I would not risk moving to Colombia alone without local support, the exposure to danger is much higher living and working there. Going as a tourist has different aspects concerning safety, but read all that has been posted here in PBH for tips and ideas. I heard Peter is working on a new Colombia guide concerning safety. Keep an eye open for that. I still recommend finding a nice girl in advance for each trip, one might be the one for you forever. Since girls are on the top of your list, stick to Calipro's experience and go with him. Oh, another tip ... make sure you can run faster than Calipro ... so they grab him and not you.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 23:47:

no no maimimike I'm talking about a pueblo outside of Guadalajara...Plaza central????no such place. You are talking about La Plaza de Los Mariachis. It is on the corner of the Calzada Indipendencia and Avenida Juarez, accross the street from the big indoor shopping mall called San Juan de Dios---or the new name is Mercado Libertad.....

By the way...the name of the town i was thinking of is
Tlaquepaque----the town where Mariachis were born

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 24, 2005, 23:50:

Morgus...I know you can go there...it's still illegal And if you have a problem...welll..Look I'm a lawyer so I have to be a bit more carefull.

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Flyinrob13 says on Jan 25, 2005, 00:28:

I just got back from my first trip to Colombia a few days ago (im still suffering from withdrawls), and had a great time. I did meet up with some people down there, but also spent time traveling alone. I went to Cartagena (direct flight from Miami), Santa Marta, and Bogota. I travel a lot, but took more precautions in Colombia than I normally would while outside of my own country (USA). The people who worked in the Hotels were very helpful in giving some good advice on where to go and where not to go, as were the cab drivers believe it or not. My advice would be to stay pretty low key, dress nice, dont wear anything really flashy, know some spanish, and check your 6. At night, I stayed in the busy areas of town. I did talk to a girl from Cali who told me that it is a little rougher there than in the places I was visiting, but I cant confirm that. Overall, I felt pretty safe. I do think that your experience would be better if you met up with someone there who was familiar with the areas you want to travel to, because it would be nice to have someone show you around. Just be safe, and remember youre a guest. I have only been to Colombia once as a tourist, so take my advice for what its worth.

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go grin says on Jan 25, 2005, 19:35:

Good God... I am amazed at the sheer plethera of responses to my original post here. All of you people who replied seem so genuine and sincere in your opinions, and I want to thank you all for your time!

fzrdan:
Thank you for the initial heads up on women, safety etc. Your words have weight and meaning to me.

Gomezman5:
You are a wise man, and I respect your caution. You probably have given the best advice, that a white boy stay away from Colombia, but... best advice is quite often not taken. By the way, I've never been to law school, but I did work at one for a few years.

roofus:
you crack me up man, you just make me laugh every time I come here... keep it up please! jajajajjjaaa

miamimike:
I'm sure that there are many fine Colombian women living there in Florida, but it just wouldn't be the same as meeting a fine Colombian woman in her own backyard. To me, and maybe I'm wrong, once a Colombian woman gets here to the Estados Unidos she might start to absorb the materialistic nature of other women in this country, maybe I'm wrong, probably so!

Lionheart:
Good advice, and actually I do already have Amigos.com in my arsenal. So far though, details are sketchy.

JamesVH:
You said: Sorry, Perhaps it is just that I am an old cynic, but all your obvious questions, worries, have been answered in full so many times already. After all, you state that you have been reading the site for many months.

I have been reading, but perhaps I want a new angle on it. I'm sorry for the repetition here.

To all: Thanks again for your overwhelming responses and information! Sorry if I left anyone out when I was naming names, but I really like all of you man!

Ps- roofus, please say something cause you're real damn funny...
out-- Jaime

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 25, 2005, 20:43:

Go Grin Same rhetoric...same results...So go !! This thread has played out exactly the way they all do. Anerican wants to go, some say go some say don't go, guy wants to go...and in the end, he goes because of the mixed opinions and he is leaning toward wanting to go, so I am really not sure why he comes here for advise in the first place.

That's what always happens, that's what happened here. Ok, let's look for a moment. Everbody comes out here an says the same nonsense.
"I felt safe", "I took precautions", "I did not have any problems"
Look, this is all what I call mental masturbation. In other words, they went, and they survived, so in their mind, all is well, and it is safe. Well, let me be clear the fact that these people survived, does NOT mean that it is not dangerous...IT is.

My analogy is as follows. You decide to close your eyes and walk accross the street. You make it accross the street and say to yourself, "See, it's not dangerous, I made it." But the reality is, if you do it again and again, sooner or later, you will get run over and flatened. So, my point is crossing the street with your eyes closed is dangerous, and the fact that you successfully made it accross with your eyes closed does NOT make it any less dangerous

If you want to go--then go. But go with the full knowledge that it is dangerous to do so. Don't talk yourself into thinking that it is not.

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goosekirk says on Jan 25, 2005, 20:46:

I dunno I've been in Bogota for several months now, and I keep trying to do all the things They Say I shouldn't do, and I'm still here. I think I've broken just about every rule in the US military's Force Protection handbook by now, without so much as an awkward moment. Now maybe I'm just extra-lucky or extra-pretty or something, or maybe security's really improved here lately or the risks are slightly exaggerated. Hard to say, I suppose. It sounds like he might want to avoid Cali, but if this guy goes to Bogota, Medellin or Cartagena by himself and has an ounce of common sense, I don't see where it's any scarier than any big city in the US. I don't hear people saying to stay away from LA. And this guy's been to Mexico City - cripes, now THERE's a scary-ass place, I think.

Everything's a risk. Maybe here is riskier than Costa Rica or Dominican Republic, but Robert Pelton aside, this ain't exactly Iraq or Chechnya or Detroit.

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goosekirk says on Jan 25, 2005, 20:53:

But Gomez... If all the threads are the same, and the person always goes and has a fine time with no problems... then who are the gringos that are having all these troubles? I haven't met any. They don't seem to post here. Where is all this danger, exactly? Statistically, there must be some, but if the threats were really so great they surely would have caught up to someone here by now (knock on wood and all that).

Seriously, if there were this many people on a message board about visiting and living in Flint, Michigan, there would be a bunch of horror stories. I haven't seen a single first-hand horror story here yet, and even the second-hand ones seem to be coming from Cali, and there's no reason why a first-time gringo needs to be going to Cali anyway.

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fzrdan says on Jan 25, 2005, 21:07:

Some of you are making Cali sound like a battle zone. Wait, maybe it is. I just spoke to my novia. I found out she always carries that huge ass knife with her! Holy frijoles batman!

I'm still going back in February. I will be there for 8 days. I can't freakin' wait. I will keep myself safe by barricading myself and my novia in the hotel room. Wont leave, maybe to eat. jejeje I will see the sights in the taxi to the airport. Wait, Cali doesn't have any sights to see. Only drug dealers, killers, rapists, thieves.

Some people fail to realize that a lot of folks want to go to Colombia precisely because it is NOT the safest place to go. Anyone can go to Costa Rica, Thailand, France....It takes someone with balls to go to Colombia, especially a non spanish speaking gringo going alone. I know too many people (even in my own family) that have lived in the same town their entire life. Maybe traveled to the state next to them and that is it. I personally think that is a damn boring existence. In fact, that is all you are doing, existing. Not living. I don't want to offend anyone. If you don't have the means to travel, then you can't. I believe that if you do have the means, you should.

Gomezman...I think you are not really Colombian. You are dominican or costa rican and work for the tourism board there. jejeje

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 26, 2005, 00:22:

Gooskirk and Fzr denial and more denial Goosekirk, so you have "broken every rule" and have done so without incident. All you are doing is justifying my point. And eventually you will NOT get away with it if you break the rule often enough. Why tempt fate?

In our Colombia,people are kidnapped at a rate higher than almost any country in the world. Per capita, it is the HIGHEST rate in the world. Extortion is the HIGHEST rate in the world. On top of the statistics we do know, there is a tremendous amount of crime, in addition to Extortion and kidnapping that never gets reported. What is the incentive to report a crime when almost nothing is done about it? By the way, Colombia's rate of unsolved murders, is also one of the highest in the world. That is comforting to know isn't it? It certainly provides an incentive for people to kill others, with little fear of repercusion

Colombia's police system ranges from marginal to non existant. Which means that many kidnappings are not even reported. Almost all extortion is not reported in that Colombia's Naional Police, is utterly ineffective in terms of its ability to track and aprehend extortionists.

And here we go with the last of my favorites---they always come somewhere....1. The silly comparisons to American cities 2. The personal attacks. Congrads to Goosekirk and Fzr.

1.Comparison to American cities. I wish I could understand why everyone picks on Detroit when the Crime rate in Miami is higher than that of Detroit's. Maybe because more Colombians live in Miami and that can't acknowledge that Miami's is higher than Detroit. I know, Colombian's don't really live in Miami per se, but nevertheless, they live closer to Miami than Detroit.

In the meantime, if you want to use Detroit or any other American city for that matter, and say it is more dangerous there than Colombia, that is utter nonsense. How many people do you think get kidnapped in Detroit or any American city for that matter? How many people do you think get extorted in America --Extorted like "if you and your family want to live, you have to pay to do so." But let's used Detroit or Miami, there are some relatively safe areas and not so, safe ones. But there is a very effective police force there, as there is in ALL major cities. If you are working in Downtown Detroit everyday, you can wear simulated Gold or Gold watches and not worry about being stuck up. And yes, you can take out your cell phone and make a call while waiting for a bus...no stick up artists there. Why?
Police are everywhere in downtown Detroit.

Another question....and guys....think hard because you will not have a good answer to this one. The guy want to vacation. He is pure gringo. He knows nobody in Colombia. No Family. No friends. Why should a guy go to a country with a crime rate that high just to see some beautiful women. You guys make your own mistake when you say it's not as dangerous as Iraq, Detroit and other places like Chechniya. So what you are saying is...it's bad but it's not the absolute worse. And that should be the standard to use as to where a person should go to VACATION???? Give me a break. Those other countries you mentioned, I would not even go to even if you oaid me thousand or millions of dollars. And you are comparing Colombia to places like that.....That is comical.

Plainly stated, your own pride as Colombians distorted your sense of logic and commonsense, and it is a shame that it allows you to even for a second to give the green light to a Gringo to travel to Colombia
for what??? To see a bunch of hotties??? Please.

And lastly, Fzr, I am as much Colombian as anyone you have ever met. I was born there, but my parents moved here when I was very young. My parent family survived La Violencia in Bogota. That's funny, I want to protect a Gringo, and that makes me very "uncolombian" How dare I speak poorly about Colombia. Well I do. and will continue to tell the truth, and lie to an unwary and unsuspecting tourist.

I want to have a clear conscience.

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fzrdan says on Jan 26, 2005, 06:55:

gomezman...it was a joke man. I thought you would see that. No offense intended.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 26, 2005, 08:23:

Fzrdan OK my friend It's just that as each day goes by, I am sickened and honestly at times near tears when I read about the nonsense and seemingly endless problems that happen in our Colombia. May God and whatever force that be, rescue her from this endless pattern of violence and chaos.

In the meantime, I don't want to see a gringo going there and getting hurt. Unless he is accompanied by a Colombian.

Take care Fzrdan

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Saltador says on Jan 26, 2005, 08:34:

Gomezman Makes some good points, also some not so good points.
First let me say I'm a gringo who speaks only a little spanish. I've been to Cartagena twice, and will be back in Cartagena in one week. (On a direct flight Miami/Cartagena on Avianca, 475 dollars, cheaper at other times and when they have specials.)
My personal experience is that Cartagena is "safe". Granted, Gomezman makes a good point about not knowing you were in danger, etc. And if I go next week and get mugged and killed on the street, no one here will ever know about it. But the atmosphere there is very protective of the touristas. Granted, you will be pestered constantly by vendors/beggars, but if you have common street sense, you will be fine. So, you can go to "Colombia" if it means Cartagena, and be safe. Or you can go to "Colombia", at night in the countryside in FARC territory, and be very unsafe. It's all relative as to where you go and when, you can't generalize. That's why the big city comparisons are hard to make. Which is safer: The beach in bocagrande Cartagena in the daytime? Or the rough west side neighborhoods of Chicago at 2 AM? I know where I'd rather find myself. In Caracas, 50 people a night are murdered. But, it's mostly in the barrios. So, if I go to Caracas, am I in danger for my life? Could be in great danger. Could be in none. Depends on where I'm at.
And San Jose Costa Rica is much more dangerous than Cartagena in general. But again depends on where and when specifically.
Cartagena beaches in the city, are not the greatest, but you can easily arrange for daytrips to The Rosario Islands, the Decameron Hotels private island, or even fly to San Andres for like 200 dollars round trip. As for the women, Colombian women in general are the most beautiful women on the planet.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 26, 2005, 10:00:

Saltador A few points

First Cartagena, although geographically is a part of Colombia, it is not nearly as dangerous as the interior. Like you said, it is a tourist place, many cruise ships make stop-overs there as well. In light of that fact, it is extremely well protected. Look, if Colombia looses Cartagena as a tourist attraction, it will really be up a creek so to speak. It would be analagous to Mexico loosing Cancun.

Kidnappings, extortion, and street crime, are not the same in Costa Rica like it is i Colombia. I would not say that San Jose Costa rica is more dangerous than Cali, Medellin or Bogota for that matter. Impossible.

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Saltador says on Jan 26, 2005, 11:22:

Agree, but also disagree... I agree with you 100 percent on Cartagena. I think the Colombian government feels the same way, hence the "Hands Off" the tourists policy.
As to comparing countries, once again it depends where you go and when. I know my street radar was on higher alert in San Jose than it ever was in Cartagena. (Note I'm not speaking for Medellin or Cali, from what I hear I agree they are more dnagerous in general than Cartagena. Interesting site here:
http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graphT/cri_tot_cri_cap&id=SAM&id=CAC&int=300
Cut and paste that into your browser, you'll see that in total crimes committed per person, Costa Rica, Chile, etc are way more "dangerous" than "Colombia".

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fzrdan says on Jan 26, 2005, 11:40:

Saltador That link didn't work for me. However, I found a lot of interesting stats there. Good website

Murder rate per capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

Colombia was tops for murder rate. The top 4 are way ahead of the rest.

Total crimes
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri

U.S. in front by a long way! I am sure part of that is the actual percentage of crimes versus crimes reported. Some have suggested that the number of crimes in Colombia that go unreported is very high.

Kidnappings
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_kid

There are only 9 countries on the list, and of course Colombia blows the rest away. Too bad.

Murders with firearms
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_wit_fir

Wow, South Africa number one and Colombia number two. The U.S. was number 4 with nearly 2/3 less than Colombia. And the U.S. has what, 8 or 9 times the population.

Maybe Gomezman is right. Stay away......

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goosekirk says on Jan 26, 2005, 11:42:

But still... I'm not making personal attacks, I'm asking very seriously, if it's that dangerous for gringos to visit, then where are the gringo victims?

My impression is that a lot of the violence in Colombia is politically-motivated, and I certainly don't see where kidnapping and extortion is a problem for regular gringo tourists. That doesn't even make sense. Street crime, especially involving handguns, seems to be relatively rare. I think comparisons with US cities and other countries are perfectly valid... people in the US tend to have this impression that Colombia is dangerous the way Iraq and Chechnya are dangerous, and that's not the case at all these days. Tell someone it's roughly as dangerous as Detroit or Washington, and then they have a better understanding and can make decisions accordingly. And I'd say it's less dangerous for a tourist than Flint or Gary, Indiana, for example.

I don't make comparisons with Miami because I don't really know Miami. All I can say is that when I was in Miami for a few days, there were a lot of shady-looking, homeless or just plain crazy people walking around at night, and it was a hell of a lot more creepy than anything I've seen in Bogota.

And saying that there are no stick-ups in downtown Detroit is just plain wrong. People still get mugged for their shoes, for crying out loud. And police sure aren't everywhere in downtown Detroit - I see far more police in north Bogota than I ever saw in Detroit.

I'm not sure what the issue is here... of course, Colombia is a dangerous PLACE. The question is, is it dangerous for a gringo to come visit? You say it's crazy for a tourist to come to a country with such a high crime rate... but I haven't seen ANY evidence that Bogota, Cartagena or Medellin are any more dangerous than most other big cities for tourists. And not just US cities... anecdotal evidence suggests to me that a tourist is more likely to get ripped off or killed in Mexico City, Lima, Jamaica or Sao Paulo, for example.

I know you feel bad for the problems in Colombia. I feel, however, that solutions to the problems here include more tourism and more foreign investment. Scaring foreigners as if their risks in north Bogota are equal to native Colombians in Los Llanos is just not accurate, and only contributes to an already overly negative reputation.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 26, 2005, 12:01:

Saltador....come on...please First, I am familiar with that site. You have to understand that these statistics are only as reliable as the record reporting and mechanism used to report such statistics. As I pointed out above, Colombia has NO local policing mechanism whatsoever. Their Police force is a National Police, that has local affiliates. Two, to the extent that is has local law enforcment, it's effectiveness is someewhere between negleglgible to non existant. In light if this fact, many Colombians simply never report crimes given they fact that they know, it is a waste of time When crimes are nit reported, there are no statistics that are reportable and therefore, the amount of crime that is reported to these tracking agencies are going to be substantially lower than the what should be reflected.

Also, it has been common knoweldge for some time, that Colombia, in an endeavor to try and clean it's image up in terms of the degree of violence, has purposely underreported it's statistics on crime in much the same way it has always underreported it unemployment data.

You simply will never get any logical thinking person to believe that Chile, in any shape or form, has a higher crime rate than Colombia.
That statement is beyond the realm of reason. For one thing, there is a direct relationship between crime statistics and a country's economic situation. Chile, has higer employmnet. Chile's per capita income is also higher than Colombia's. It's literacy rate is higher than Colombia's. It's economic indicators are much better than Colombia's. It does not have a civil war taking place--no mafiosos, no guerilla conflict, or paramilitays for that matter. Kidnappings are very infrequent, and extortion is non existant.

Thal all being said.....forget about the nonsense that Chile has a higher crime rate than Colombia.

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caslug says on Jan 26, 2005, 12:22:

gomez advice is generally correct.. while he may pound the hammer to hard to get people to see, it is generally on track. if you are in a col or any country hanging with a local who knows the stuff and cares for you, ie GF then you will be very very safe. BUT as a first time tourist, no friends, no english, no contact, then maybe COL is not the first choice. Just like we dont jump into the deep end of the pool the after the first swiming lesson. And if you talk about Cali, that is the real deep end of the pool.

One earlier poster said, some tourist enjoy going to places off the beaten track. i confess i am one of those that is why i select colombia twice, including cali for my VERY first time in S. America with only 5 week of english. I had a great time, i was friendly made friends with gringos and locals i met. But they all have stories about the crime in Cali. people you should read the thread about danger in COL on this board back last year. Several poster mention off hand that col is NOT dangerous, and this was from a poster that said, that her first year in COL she got robbed 2 or 3 times, BUT once she discover her COL LEG, she never got robbed again, the rest of her stay.

i am here in lima for past week for 2 weeks, it is different, more safe areas, but that is because lima has tons of tourist while bogata or col is not exactly on the average s. american tourist top choice. I am staying in area similar to zona rosa, and there is tons of foreign tourist, i ve seen more foreigner in half a day in lima than a week in BOG.

if you have reason to go to col, ie work, love, whatever, you should go. But dont think just because bunch of us poster here never had problems, that it doesnt exist. But if you want to go for legit tourist go to other place first then when you get more exp come to col. I just did it the opposite, so peru is a snap for me after COL. Especially now my spanish is passable. BTW, if you decide to goto COL for the first time ALONE without local friends, BOG or CTG is probably the best choice.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 26, 2005, 12:39:

Caslug------I'm jealous!! and I agree with most of what you said. I think for the most part, we are on the same page. In the meantime, how is Lima???
I am seriously jealous. Here I am in a very cold Chicago, snowing AGAIN, and I'm in my office getting barked at by everyone under the sun. Why can't I just get the guts to call it quits, surrender myself to a safe Colombia and hope for the best. Maybe Costa Rica??
no--I hate the heat !!! Anyway, I hope you are having a great time there.

Hey Caslug, it seems like all you ever do is travel. What a life!
Take it easy

G5

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Saltador says on Jan 26, 2005, 13:00:

G5 Chill mi amigo. Not trying to argue with you, just trying to be another voice of reason. All I did was point out a web site, that has some interesting statistics to ponder. They say Chile has 90 reported crimes per 1000 persons. Columbia has 5. Interesting. Figures lie, and liars figure, we all know that. But the source of this data is: Source: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention).
Sounds like some people who might know what they're talking about....
Tiring of this thread, but I'll stick to my original sentiment, which was that safety in Colombia depends on where you're at, and when. Having been to both places, Cartagena Colombia is "safer" than San Jose Costa Rica. I'm planning on enjoying my 11 days there, and using regular common sense and street sense, anticipate no problems crime wise. Will report back after my trip, as long as I'm not dead or kidnapped.

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goosekirk says on Jan 26, 2005, 13:01:

OK... If crime and economic factors are so intrinsically linked, and for that reason Chile is safer than Colombia... then by that logic, there are a lot of more dangerous places than Colombia. Like Peru, Honduras, Panama, Dominican Republic, Fiji, Egypt, Ecuador, Jamaica, China, India, Venezuela, etc. etc. And Bolivia should really be a terrifying place.

Again, you're lumping war, kidnapping and mafioso activity in with the street crime that affects casual tourists. It's just not the same thing.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 26, 2005, 17:14:

saltador Goosekirk No all is ok....I like meaningful debate....ok, I get a little passionate at times....No big deal and definitey nothing personal.
But, as I said, Colombia's police is so ineffectual, has poor statistic keeping or cooks them. But in general, because the law enforcement is so ineffectual, most crimes are not reported. In that case, quite naturally you will never `have reliable statistics. I think my above argument says it all. Colombia only wishes it could be in Chile's position. And, you and I both know that.

Goosekirk, you make a good point. However I think you are off in your list of countries. The economies of Panama is much better than Colombia and every other country in that list. Panama, has the canal, civil peace and stability rivaled by no other latin Anerican country. I think you have forgotten that Colombians Flock in droves to work in Panama, the reverse is not true.

There are exceptions and I can't speak to each other indivdual country, but the western countries with the US carrying the flag and Canada, Western Europe and Australia are in the same field indicates that when the economy goes south, crime rate goes up. When the economy inpooves, the crime rate drops, that is common knowledge. Unemployment goes up, crime rate goes up. Unemployment goes down, the crime rate goes down.

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micaela123 says on Jan 26, 2005, 20:58:

A perspective from a gringa living in Bogota "Micaela"

I had to give my two cents with this one....

I have lived in bogota for not that long (6 months) but I really do enjoy it for what it is. Mind you I was raised in Detroit, so I moved here knowing enough spanish to understand and communicate and with some pretty good street smarts. I recommend that you come to visit this beutiful country, but with a purpose. See if you can get a friend to come with you, or at least start off your trip with a travel group of somesort. Like Detroit, one minute you can be walking in a better part of the city, and the next it is in a not so nice part. Unlike Detroit, the not so nice parts don't LOOK like slums necessarily...which can be deceptive. So, yes, it is really key to have someone give you good insights and advice throughout your trip. Even if I park in a parking lot 3-4 block away from the mall, I will take a taxi, epecially at night. Yet, I would do the same in Detroit.

I feel like you have to worry less about FARC in the city and more about robbery or getting hit by crazy drivers or motos. :) Now I've been on plenty of trips out of the city to the north and south, but this was only with Colombian friends and family.

Be smart, be cautious, have fun :)

Micaela

"Micaela"

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go2pr says on Jan 27, 2005, 01:14:

Yes, Rufus is right : in my e Having a girl waiting at the airport ?

Baddest idea one can have !!!!

Rufus is right : the BIGGEST problem in Colombia is that the girls don't clearly make the difference between what WE want (one night stands/short-term relationships) and what THEY want (long-term) : this brang me LOT of embarrasing situations when I was in Medellin this summer.

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go2pr says on Jan 27, 2005, 01:19:

Caslug What about Lima ?

NIghtlife, girls, ect ...

Take care and have a good time .....

Cheers

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Albatross says on Jan 27, 2005, 04:44:

? People keep saying that it's "safe" in Colombia for a Gringo if he's with a Colombiana.

If some guy sticks a gun in your face what's your 5'2" Colombian girlfriend gonna do about it ?

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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elmodefoque says on Jan 27, 2005, 06:51:

"Anyway go grin send me a PM if you like, I will be there mid Feb. for at least 3 months and having a great time and drinking arguardente till me arse turns blue." roofus

Hey Roofus, how do you know when your ass turns blue. Do you squat over a mirror? jejejej. I’m embarrassed to say this but what the hell, and with Peter’s permission here I go. When I first got my cheap digital camera I immediately took a picture of my asshole. Most of the hairs in my head are silver and I wanted to see if I had some there too. I also wanted to solve this persistent problem that I have with dingleberries. Hey, what the hell are dingleberris? Well after many long hours of research I came across this very precise definition.
dingeberries are little balls that appear on your bung after you wipe. The real question is, are they little balls of toilet paper, or little balls of shit? If they're toilet paper, than dingleberries occur when the toilet paper shreds, and the wiping motion rolls the shreds into little balls which cling onto you hairy ass. But if they're shit, then dingleberries must be the result of little hunks of crap being rolled into balls and stuck to your butt. Or maybe they're little pieces of toilet paper covered in crap. Good structural integrity in your toilet paper is essential to preventing dingleberries.
If that’s the case then all the freaking Russians must be walking around with serious cases of dingleberris. It is widely known that their TP quality is not to par with USA standards. In Colombia the problem is not so prevalent due to the popular use of newspapers.
I’m thinking about going back to using brown paper bags to wipe my ass.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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caslug says on Jan 27, 2005, 07:26:

... LOL. Thats very true about dont have a women meeting you at the airport. Unless you are very serious with her, otherwise they will try to lock you down during trip. Peruvian mujeres is even worse about this.

Lima is different that BOG, CALI, CTG. One nice thing about lima is it is on the pacific coast, so it is very similar to LA, OC, SD in CA. The weather is beautiful during summer and i notice that on average hotel prices are cheaper than bogota, BUT cell phone usage or calling cell phone is more exp. The women here are just as friendly as COL women, but COL women are more agressive about expressing intrest, while Peruvian are more reserved. I like COL because the local are very friendly, willing to makes friends and show around even buying you a drink here and there.

Nightlife in Lima is a little better, monday&Tues are still dead but at least Sun,Wed are decent, of course thurs-sat are great but BOG is like that. Many more areas that is safer at night. But keep in mind that lima has lots of foreign tourist going thru to travel to other places in Peru. So it has to be more safer to keep the tourism. If COL ever gets the security situation in place, like peru did 7-10 yrs ago, especially 5 yrs ago when they capture the leader of the shinning path, then COL will become quite a tourist destination.

Several example stands out of the contrast between COL & Peru.
1) you can take any foto you want, in musuem, in shopping mall, by govt buildings, things i could not do in BOG.
2) there are money changer, guys on the street with 1000s of dollars worth, at 3AM in several areas of Lima.
3) the casino have a higher table limit, 3$ versus $1 in COL.



Anyone wants to know more detail about peru, safety, women, dating, partying, sight seeing, etc., PM me. SInce talking about some of those subject in detail is not appropriate on a site about COL. I think traveller should exp both countries, for novice first timer, i would recommend peru first then COL. COL vets will feel right a home.

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ARMacleod says on Jan 27, 2005, 10:49:

elmo........ Now at long last I am fulfilled, the meaning of my life has been explained after all this time.

Explain to me, O master of the bog roll, my litery guru, my teacher of the toilet, why it was that in an Army 24 hour pack for 4 men, that there were 12 toilet tissues? these were of the semi solid type, i.e. they were thin, bullet proof and like large razor blades. At at this ratio per day we came to the unanimous conclusion that it meant we had three each. (am I still on thread?)

My troop leader, one Lt (omo) strike, with his 21 years of wisdom came up with the answer.

The permutation was: you could go three times and use one each time, not really practicable in a closed down tank.

You could use two on one occasion and use the third for blowing your nose, (a rare luxury) Or what seemed to be the more logical.

Confine ones self to going once each day, and on this distinguished but possibly explosive event. One up, one down and one for a final polish.

This substance had as much chance of shredding or rolling into small spheres as the Pope has of leap frogging over his balcony.


Being of unsound mind and dubious disposition, I cannot be held legally liable for any indiscretions."¡El diablo me hizo hacerlo!" But don't worry, be happy.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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elmodefoque says on Jan 27, 2005, 11:12:

james, that’s a tough predicament and is going to take some serious thinking, The idea of using only one piece for each time you go is not too practical; I’ve tried and found my finger going thru the paper and in my ass and you don’t want that because now you’ll have a dirty butt and crap in you finger.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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oldbongo says on Jan 27, 2005, 13:07:

sounds familiar... however, slightly different..
the oldgringo thought you told me that
the last piece of ass you got was
when you put your finger through the paper.

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YEP says on Jan 27, 2005, 13:11:

ROFLMAOBMB

Roling on floor laughing my ass off bounching my belly

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Just another scandinavian getting ready to explore South America

------------------------------------------------------------------- Just another scandinavian getting ready to explore South America

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 27, 2005, 14:48:

Roofus, would you like the FARC to meet you at the airport? I have fewer contacts with the FARC than I do with the AUC but we can see that you are met and well taken care of.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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