Gringo murdered in Armenia

Philly says on Nov 13, 2008, 02:24:

Sorry, lots of people get murdered every day here. The big difference here is, there are soooooooooo many other bad things to report in the news, the murders are not the focus. Where I live, I think the average is close to 2 murders a day. Probably more, trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.
So, the answer to your question is, its a hit or miss. Most murders here are for a reason.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 13, 2008, 04:17:

"I am looking for a nice, green temperate climate that is "tranquilo" and safe."

Try Uruguay.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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TimH says on Nov 13, 2008, 05:15:

Haven`t heard of the incident myself.
Lived in Salento for nearly 5 years and visit Armenia at least once a week. Hop in and out of taxis and haven`t felt unsafe in Salento or Armenia during all that time.
However it is Colombia and shit does happen. Then again it happens all over the world.
We see a lot of travellers in Salento and so far (touch wood) none have have anything like that happen to them.
Would make an observation - the article says visiting friends and relations - sort of suggests a Colombian with a green card or the like - in which case it`s not quite the same thing as Gringo getting killed. Might explain the lack of news on the story.

It´s better to be silent and thought a fool than open your mouth and prove the fact....

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jake074701 says on Nov 13, 2008, 07:01:

All interior beautiful and utopia cities like Manizales, Periera,Ibague,Armenia are dangerous for us gringos. So please STAY OUT-NO GRINGOS

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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ellbee2 says on Nov 13, 2008, 07:39:

Jake the Big Fish is trying to keep his pond as little as possible. Come on down!

"You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going because you might not get there." Yogi Berra

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webmanco says on Nov 13, 2008, 07:42:

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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Saltador says on Nov 13, 2008, 07:52:

Don't worry, the guy is probably on his way to Uruguay.

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PBHjon says on Nov 13, 2008, 09:08:

salento seemed about as dangerous as a small town in idaho.

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aussiesam says on Nov 13, 2008, 09:54:

people get killed everyday in colombia...doesn't ever raise eyebrows let alone make news

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La_Huella says on Nov 13, 2008, 10:02:

Armenia is actually one of the safer places in the region. Just because one person gets killed you can't jump to conclusions. We have no idea as to motive.

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Philly says on Nov 13, 2008, 10:42:

Excuse me La_Huella, it should not matter what the motive was, he was killed. That is the point here.

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jonas says on Nov 13, 2008, 10:57:

Es verdad que es legal matar gringos en Colombia?

Mi alma se la dejo al diablo

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teeo9111 says on Nov 13, 2008, 13:09:

I spend one week per month in Manizales and am as gringo as it gets and feel as safe as in any city in the U.S. of the same size.That being said,it is still Colombia and there are a lot of desperate people due to the poverty etc..In my opinion if you keep your wits about you and don't put yourself in bad situations like walking around at night in bad areas or walking around anywhere drunk you are almost as safe as you are at home,ALMOST...

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Monita Linda says on Nov 13, 2008, 14:10:

Or was he a Colombian with a US green card ready to leave Colombia for good with money from his DRFE piramida but they figured him out?

Poor but Preppy ______Colombia: the only risk is wanting to lay.

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Philly says on Nov 13, 2008, 15:39:

Damn, there are tons of people here without hearts.

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lgvon says on Nov 13, 2008, 19:50:

Well I've lived for 3 years in Lima, Peru which is not exactly a real safe place except in the wealthier parts which have policia all over the place to protect the rich. Lots of people are robbed with grab and snatch and unfortunately a number of cabs do their share of robberies. And some get robbed on the street at knife point or gunpoint. Usually they get surrounded by a groups of thugs and if they hand over their money and cell phone nothing happens except of the loss of those items. I guess that''s the case in almost all of Latin America. Lately even the medium sized cites like Trujillo and Chiclayo have become dangerous I am told. It seems security here in Peru is declining. But the Cafetero zone of Colombia looks so beautiful. I will check it out. Don't want to return to the states. Thanks for your comments.

Larry in Lima por el momento

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TobyBoy says on Nov 13, 2008, 21:13:

Igyon,

I am a US-American that has spent a great deal of time in Armenia (I often rent vacation-fincas there) and I can categorically tell you that it is very safe.

There is plenty of crime in Uruguay and even more in Argentina ..so please don’t believe the silly anti-Colombia posters who get a kick exaggerating stuff. Lately Pereira has seen a spike in crime and murders –but mostly drug related.

Colombian cities and towns are safer than most Peruvian ones. Despite uninformed popular belief, crime statistics tend to be more accurate in Colombia, given the omnipresence of ONGs and the fact that more police are inclined to report the crimes in Colombia than in Mexico, Brazil or Peru, where cops often simply kill young (supposed-) hooligans instead of arresting them.

The whole coffee growing region is indeed stunning (originally called the “Eje Cafetero” –but recently changed name to “El Trinagolo del Café” ..most people do not yet know this).

Speaking for myself, even an offer of a billion dollars could not tempt me to return to the US –where crime is truly out of control and not making it to the media. Heck an 8 YEAR OLD BOY was recently arrested for shooting his father (and other adult) deliberately! …and let’s not even start to talk about what is in store in the States in 2009 where unemployment is going to go through the roof in a society where so many kids and adults carry concealed weapons!

I am certain you will love Armenia! -best of luck!

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La_Huella says on Nov 13, 2008, 21:23:

Philly what if it turned out that the guy raped a little kid? Would you still be so sympathetic? I categorically say that I wouldn't.

Sometimes murder and even slow death by torture is justfied as far as I'm concerned.

I have no idea what happened in this case, but I strongly suspect something was up and that it was an adjuste de cuento.

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christobeldawg says on Nov 13, 2008, 21:25:

always more than we know from the news headlines on these things. that is a lovely area of Colombia, very little violence. just like any city in the world, there are the rough areas, but why hang out there?

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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vickysanmon@gmail.com says on Nov 13, 2008, 21:29:

Wow... TobyBoy I am in agreement with all you wrote.
BTW, You said something about "El triangulo del Cafe'??
Do you know where I can find more info about it?
TY

ViCkY xD

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TobyBoy says on Nov 13, 2008, 21:41:

Hi VickySanmon !

I have been meaning to do the research on the name-change myself but have been too busy. However, I met one of the Coffee Federattioin big-wigs recently and he explained the decision to me ...for tourism reasons.

The big irony for me is that I had always hoped they would change the name since it was so hard for me to describe the pronunciation of "Eje" to my friends and acaquaintaces around the world –in different languages. Frankly, it was a pain the butt.

Well, I think one fo us should defianltey look into it with the Federation. I will try to get back to you with a response.

In the meantime, look what I just Googled: http://www.grupocolombiaturistica.com/triangulodelcafe.php

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christobeldawg says on Nov 13, 2008, 22:10:

is the triangle Armenia, Manizales, and Periara[check spelling]? I have spent some time there, those are 3 very beautiful cities in the mountains of that area, alot of nice people there.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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jonas says on Nov 13, 2008, 22:11:

George comes to my mind... Axis of ...

Mi alma se la dejo al diablo

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PBHjon says on Nov 14, 2008, 01:10:

axis of coffee makes me think of the axis of evil, you're right. but the triangle of coffee makes me think of the bermuda triangle or a love triangle, both of which are pretty deadly according to the television.

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calipro says on Nov 14, 2008, 02:04:

I heard on FOX NEWS the other night that more people get killed in the district that Obama represented as a state legislator than the americans that get killed in Iraq.

They must mean per capita killings.

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justin.s says on Nov 14, 2008, 02:07:

Toby Boy, you really overexaggerate. Violent crime in the USA is actually way down right now, especially compared to the 80s and 90s. And as far as concealed weapons go, why do you think many states now allow people to carry concealed weapons? It is becuase the statistics clearly showed the states with that allowed concealed weapons permits were all seeing lower percentages of violent crime.

I will use the old argument that is tested and true. Do you think the criminals check the law to see if they are allowed to carry concealed weapons? Hell no! So why are you going to keep a law abiding citizen from lawfully carrying a concealed weapon?

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tomtom33 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 14, 2008, 03:51:

TobyBoy says on Nov 14, 2008, 06:23:

What absurd comparisons…

Tomtom 33:

while I am happy that nothing has ever happened to you in rural Wisconsin, I can tell you that as a gringo American I have been victim of several muggings and crimes in my native East Side of New York, as well as in New Orleans, Baltimore and Palm Beach. My best friend was even stabbed to death in a very plush suburb of NYC while another co-worker of mine lost his daughter in affluent Columbine High School.

I have also lived in Bogota for many years (in and out), and to date I have never been a vivitim of crime, moreover, I know many Colombians who have not been either.

JustinS:

I do NOT overexaggerate. Have you any idea how many municipalities have/are in trouble with their constituents in the US because they are under-reporting crime DELIBERATELY in order for tourism and investment not to suffer? Are you aware that Bogota (with 17 murders per 100,000) is today safer than MOST large US cities???

You are probably someone who believes that the anachronistic Right To Bear Arms in a great and patriotic thing. Well I DO NOT, and I while I pray for my fellow Americans, I leave you the US to do as you will in 2009.

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TobyBoy says on Nov 14, 2008, 06:38:

Funny think Morphus, I wear my baseball cap sideways when I visit el Bronx, and nothing's ever happened to me either!

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manINred says on Nov 14, 2008, 07:00:

This is hilarious. TobyBoy derides others about making 'absurd' comparsions after forgetting that he previously said this:

"There is plenty of crime in Uruguay and even more in Argentina ..so please don’t believe the silly anti-Colombia posters who get a kick exaggerating stuff."

Hmm, the most recently recorded homicide rate (that I know of) in Colombia was 37 per year per 100,000 people. In Uruguay and Argentina it was 4 and 5 respectively. Yeah, great comparison there. He then lambasts tomtom33 for feeling safe in rural wisconsin. Hmmm, USA murder rate per 100,000 per year... 5.7: 6.4 times lower than Colombia's.

"Despite uninformed popular belief, crime statistics tend to be more accurate in Colombia, given the omnipresence of ONGs and the fact that more police are inclined to report the crimes in Colombia than in Mexico, Brazil or Peru, where cops often simply kill young (supposed-) hooligans instead of arresting them."

This statement is just laughable. Under what evidence do you claim that Colombian police are less corrupt than other police, and that statistics are better reported in Colombia than elsewhere? That's so far off-base, considering government doesn't even reach into all communities in Colombia, some of which are still very isolated. A lot of shit comes with being the biggest cocaine producer in the world... and apparently a lot of delusion too.

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manINred says on Nov 14, 2008, 07:03:

Oh, I forgot, personal experience is taken as conclusive fact on this site. Well, here's an anecdote of my personal experience:

I have been a victim of police corruption infinitely more times than I have been in Peru, Argentina, Ecuador and Uruaguay. I will now conclude that Colombian corruption is rampant, and that there exists none in the other countries mentioned... not.

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TobyBoy says on Nov 14, 2008, 07:13:

Good grief ManInRed... Where do you get such inferences (re personal expereinces being fact) from?

My point was simply this, while there is crime and corruption in Colombia, ther is cime and corruption in the US and everywhere else.

As a New Yorker, I am still inconsolable at the fact a man was brutally sodomized by the NYPD and the outcry was so sadly muted by the public.

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justin.s says on Nov 14, 2008, 07:32:

You have been the victim of several crimes? What kind of neighborhoods are you living in? Geez, ive been in cities all over the USA, i have never even seen a violent crime. You need to get out of the Ghetto and find a place in a nice quiet neighborhood. That being said, i am not arguing that it is safer in the USA than Colombia. I have actually never been to Colombia, i am planning my first trip in January. There are bad neighborhoods everywhere, just avoid them and you will likely never have a problem.

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TobyBoy says on Nov 14, 2008, 07:46:

JustinS,

I wish you all the best in Colombia. In fact you may be surprised to find how nice people are, and how safe it is. In the big cities you will need to be careful, as you know you would in any large city in the world.

As for where I live, you should know that I have never lived in any ghetto, but I have helped many who do. Among other things, I have been a philanthropist.

I love Colombia because I see it as a naiton fighting to improve its old democracy and way of life, a progresive nation while some others go backwards.

I sincerely hope you discover that Colombia when you finally get to visit it.

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Robert Jorge says on Nov 14, 2008, 08:07:

I am certain there is no "under-reporting" of crime stats in Bogota / Colombia.

He who farts in church, sits in his own pew.

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TobyBoy says on Nov 14, 2008, 08:25:

I am sure there is RobertJorge, but nowhere as acute a problem as in the USA. I have four significant police officer friends in the US who have privately corroborated it.

I wonder how many of my fellow US-Americans know the figures for kidnappings in the USA?

Well, we could start with this assessment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping

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justin.s says on Nov 14, 2008, 08:29:

Well thank you much Toby for your comments, and i respect you for being a humanitarian.

I have been all over the world with the exception of south / central america. Although I have been meaning to visit there for quite some time, I've been putting it off due to my inability to speak spanish. However, i have been spending a lot of time lately trying to learn the language since i have finally committed to visit colombia. Hopefully it will keep me intrigued for a while, since I seem to get bored rather easily and I am ready for a change in scenery.

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La_Huella says on Nov 14, 2008, 08:47:

Wisconsin is fine as long as you stay the hell away from Milwaukee. That city really IS as high up in the crime department as many Colombian cities, or worse.

I go in and out of the city when I want and how I want at all hours, and I wear jewelry here when I want to. Taking money out of the ATM is another story. Avoid the ATMs near the money exchange districts. I got a false 20k note from one of them.

Being murdered in the US AND in Colombia in furtherance of a robbery is extremely rare, in both countries.

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TobyBoy says on Nov 14, 2008, 08:49:

JustisS,

Thank you very much for being such a gentleman with our dialogue (-and I wish other PBH posters had your character). It means a lot to me, especially in a blog that should serve to help others.

Actually, we are much alike when it comes to getting bored. I have lived throughout Europe, the US and Canada, and after a while, much of it can become a blur. I have aslo travelled extensively throughout Latin America. Threre are places that I love; Paris, Biarritz-Saint Jean de Luz, Salamanca, Valparaiso, Edinburgh, Firenze, Urbino, Casablanca, Lugano, just to name a few, but it is Colombia where I feel most at home, and never bored.

The landscapes of Colombia are breathtaking, as much in beauty as in diversity; deserts, two oceans, thousands of lakes, mountains, lost cities, an ancient island town (Mompoz with rare artisans) pine-forests and jungles, and no less important, the sight of a delicious and nutritious fruit juice, wherever you happen to go.

You are obviously a seasoned traveler (which you will need in a country not well-geared yet for tourists) so you should have no problems. Again, I sincerely wish you all the best!

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tomtom33 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 14, 2008, 12:31:

Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 14, 2008, 13:32:

I think rural Wisconsin comes close in safety factor to rural Scandinavia. Which is a whole LOT safer than rural Colombia or even small-town Colombia. There's no comparison. I wish there were, but to say anything else would be delusional.

Tomtom, I wish you a speedy and total recovery from your surgery.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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La_Huella says on Nov 14, 2008, 13:54:

Rural areas not only in Colombia but also in North America are actually MORE dangerous than urban areas IMO. People have this weird pro-rural anti-urban prejudice. Personally I don't get it.

And the smaller cities are usually more violent than the bigger ones as well.

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 14, 2008, 14:13:

That is simply not true.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Robert Jorge says on Nov 14, 2008, 14:23:

Rural areas in the US are more dangerous than rural areas? Jajajaja Then why doesn't "The First 48" (documentary program on murders) shoot film in North Dakota rather than Miami and Memphis?

He who farts in church, sits in his own pew.

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 14, 2008, 14:58:

Rural areas in Scandinavia more dangerous than the cities? With 0 murder rate, 2 rapes per year, 3 thefts, the biggest problem is when driving you might bump into a moose?

As compared with crime statistics of Stockholm, Gothenburg, Malmö?

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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billyb says on Nov 14, 2008, 15:08:

"the biggest problem is when driving you might bump into a moose?"

No worries there, you just have to call Sarah Palin.

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tomtom33 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 14, 2008, 15:27:

utopiacowboy says on Nov 14, 2008, 16:44:

I wondered when the head cheerleader would show up. Damm he looks good in that little skirt.

I lived in a little Texas town with no locks on my doors for 10 years. You couldn't even lock the house if you wanted to. I doubt that there is anywhere in Colombia where you can do that.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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billyb says on Nov 14, 2008, 16:56:

"I hear that Sarah has a great stew recipe."

And a moose chili also, she'll even dress, clean and slice.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 14, 2008, 17:05:

All I want from her is a steady stream of high quality porn. She could surpass Jenna Jameson.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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billyb says on Nov 14, 2008, 17:09:

If this governor gig doesn't work out for her, you might just get your wish.

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Robert Jorge says on Nov 14, 2008, 22:49:

I am probably on some secret service watch list now. I Emailed Palin when drunk and sniveling over my ex. I told her I would be her Monica Lewinski.

He who farts in church, sits in his own pew.

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La_Huella says on Nov 15, 2008, 00:56:

In rural areas you can play the good town, bad town game. Also, rural areas are a LOT less safe for strangers, same as in Colombia, visiting there is not like living there.

I've seen some real rough shit in small towns in North America with my own eyes. Anybody who's been to Ft McMurray knows what a nasty rathole that place is.

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LeofromPereira says on Nov 21, 2008, 06:15:

You should travel to Pereira. It is exactly what you're looking for...

Leonardo G. bixarre@hotmail.com

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davidslc46 says on Nov 25, 2008, 05:53:

Did anyone verify wether this was even true. I have spoken to a few different people from armenia and no one knows of this incident.

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