Gringo Iva...you like?

griffbos says on May 31, 2007, 07:56:

Cayita your entitled to your opinion, but I disagree with most of what you have said

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cayita says on May 31, 2007, 08:02:

griff that is fine, I don't expect everyone to agree with me. With someone like you I could have a cup of coffee with and be friends with. Too bad you are not more represented on here. Since usually what I find on here is when someone dissagrees they follow it with a personal attack of some type. It just escalates from there into an all out war.

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cayita says on May 31, 2007, 08:05:

I have an IDEA... Could when you make a comment on this please post your nationality? Thankyou...I am Colombian

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David in Idaho says on May 31, 2007, 08:12:

My nationality is US and I must point out, respectfully, that in my humble opinion, you are the one who usually escalates a civil disagreement into a battle of insults, which takes all the fun out of any discussion. It is ironic that you find this behavior annoying in other posters.

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arthur brode (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 31, 2007, 08:17:

cayita says on May 31, 2007, 08:31:

David as usual you are wrong about that. ;)

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toneloc24 says on May 31, 2007, 08:41:

Wow, gotta agree with Cayita What strikes me as funny is that some people actually believe themselves as open-minded, yet fail to even consider nor respect local customs.

While one might not agree with it, there should be a healthy respect for "how things are done here" as opposed to bringing your own pre-conceived ideas, and that ALONE being the end-all, be-all. And that's one of the biggest issues when people from the USA travel abroad.

Two-tier pricing and menus, gringo IVAs, expected financial contributions, etc. are all a result of such actions. But some folks will never see it that way.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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Gomezman5 says on May 31, 2007, 08:51:

I have to agree with as well I am a Colombian born man but I have spend most of my life (all my adult life) in the US. I have lived as long as 11 momths in Colombia, and I return at least once a year, often for several weeks at a time. Most importantly, I know my people and I know how they think. In general, Cayita is correct. Colombians DO NOT understand this concept of leaving big tips, but they do know a Colombian customer from an American one for any one of several reasons. Therefore, when a gringo leaves a big tip, the Colombian person does not think it is because they gave them good service. They will give them good service anyway because that is their nature. A tip is appreciated, but not one that is 2 or even 3 times more than normal. They will clearly see that as merely a Gringo trying to demonstrate that he is better than they are. Some may see it differently, but I think not. The best way to put it is this: If a custom is going to change in a country, the custom should be changed, and will be more readily accepted when it is done by the people who inhabit and are native to that country. Nobody is going to be quick to accept change coming from the outside.

Cayita has an important point. If Colombians interpret gringos throwing their money around as just "showing off" and NOT as an appreciation for good service, then gringos will end up paying more and more over time, because Colombians will fee insulted, and at the same time, will make them more likely to take advantage of them by charging them more.

Two mind sets, and two different ways of thinking.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 31, 2007, 08:58:

I'd have to agree with cayita too. As much as I respect your opinion David, I do believe cayita might be right about this. I also don't advocate heavy tipping; it's disrespectful towards the people and you're interfering with the local custom, which is always a bad idea, because the signal you're sending is that YOUR way is better than theirs and it's YOU who's the visitor in THEIR country so it's just about as bad as if you came to visit me in the middle of a muddy October in Stockholm and refused to remove your filthy shoes indoors because you were trying to teach me something....?

Cheers,
Desi

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Gomezman5 says on May 31, 2007, 09:01:

Desi..... You are correct and I am in full agreement.

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gringoloid (Trustee board) says on May 31, 2007, 09:04:

I think there are two issues here....... everywhere I go....unicentro excepted, an attempt is made to overcharge me. I expect this and know that it is coming.

Cayita, ....your point is well taken, why start some practice that is going to spiral out of control and cause our bills to go higher in the future.

I really don't think there are many people tipping more than the IVA already on the bill though.

I've only had it removed once when the drinks came long after the meal was finished.

But I feel that I am being overcharged because they think I'm used to paying more in the states.

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podborski says on May 31, 2007, 09:22:

I don't think your analogy works desi because the one case (tipping too much) would be thought by most people to be a benefit to the recipient, whereas tracking mud all over someone's house is not exactly a positive thing to do.

But it's an interesting viewpoint, one that I honestly have never thought of before. I tip generously (but not outrageously), and I do it out of purely selfish reasons, to get better service, to be remembered, to get to the head of the line.

It may not be fair but I never thought I was insulting the recipient, and none ever acted that way (that I noticed), but I suppose there is something to it.

I agree with learning about local customs and respecting them, but I also believe attempting to affect some changes is not always bad either.

So how does this slightly different scenario play?:

I paid my workmen a christmas bonus, ranging from 2 day's extra pay for the new or junior guys to a bit more than 1 week's pay for the guys I thought worked hardest. There was no requirement to give a bonus, and most told me they had never received one before, other than the usual cider and box of cookies, which they also got.

The capo told me the men were 'contentissimo' with this bonus.

After christmas the 3 guys I paid best did not return to work, they found other jobs. But most of the others returned. 2 months ago the 2 best guys returned to work for me, and they are working harder than ever. I can hardly believe how hard they work, and I am quite sure it is because they know I am watching and I will pay them another bonus when the job is done.

I'm not making myself out to be a good guy. I paid the bonus purely in the expectation that I would get MORE than that in return, in terms of good work.

It isn't scientific, but I'd say it's a huge success, and I intend to run my business the same way, paying employees more than they would make elsewhere, based on results such as revenue, profitability and most importantly customer service results.

So is it wrong to be deviating from the way things are usually done here?

I don't think so.

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David in Idaho says on May 31, 2007, 11:06:

I also agree with Cayita about the tipping. 100% Desi, did you ever see a post of mine where I said her post about tipping was wrong? Actually, I haven't yet expressed an opinion on that, so here it is: I agree totally.

What I disagree with is her defensiveness and self-proclaimed innocense in regards to the escalation of insulting posts. She is like a snake that strikes and then pretends to be a mouse after the fact.

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cayita says on May 31, 2007, 11:15:

OK David so now I am a snake? Maybe you should evaluate the words you use and then you won't be surprised when people take offense. Anyway you get a pass this time. This time. Thanks Desi G and all that posted on topic. Very interesting to hear what your opinions are.

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Gomezman5 says on May 31, 2007, 11:22:

Not Quite Podorbski You said:

"one case (tipping too much) would be thought by most people to be a benefit to the recipient, whereas tracking mud all over someone's house is not exactly a positive thing to do."

You are mistakenly applying "American" by trying to superimosing this line of thinking on Colombians. In other words, since you are applying a faulty premiss from the onset, your concussion is not going to be a correct one. As it has already been said, Colombian people do not assicuate typing in excess as a form of a reward for what the have done. This particularly true because this money is coming from gringos. If they don't see the increase in typing as a form of reward, then you are sending a different message, which is exactly what has been described.....Americans flashing money to show that they are "better". You don't have to be Colombian to understand that different cultures perceive the same actions differently, especially when the actions are coming from others that are not of their culture.

In the second example regarding respecting people property by not tracking mud on someone elses floor, that is merely common courtesty, and it would be disrespectful to do so in anyone's home, regardless of the culture.

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gringoloid (Trustee board) says on May 31, 2007, 11:23:

I end up giving the change from the taxi driver to women holding their babies and standing out in traffic asking for money. Its a giveaway anyway.

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Cerealkiller says on May 31, 2007, 11:35:

Ha ha ha gringoloid, do yourself a favour and keep those evil comments on "charity" to yourself. You certainly are cruising for a bruising...cant wait to see what others will post on your spare change technique.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 31, 2007, 11:42:

I used the analogy of wearing shoes inside because it is viewed differently in different cultures. Nobody in southern Europe removes shoes inside and it is consdered very unelegant and the floors are considere to have a lot of bacteria and you should NOT remove your shoes when inside. This same way of thinking is common in Colombia where rugs are not used to same extent to cover the floors and the tile floors need a daily mopping to be clean.

The idea is that you apply a concept that you were grown up with and which is valid in your society abd try to apply it in another, thinking that your idea is better and by rote you'll be showing these poor ignorant people how to think.(The doors are dirty and I do not remove my shoes vs. I'm being rude dragging mud all over people's carpets).

Whatever, the analogy works for me. Giving big tips is NOT about you trying to benefit the Colombian society by large, It's basically a) manifestation of economical power or b)a bribe to get better servce, to be remembered as a generous patron, to go ahead in the line. get a preferential (VIP) treatment. In case a) it's offensive in case b) it's a form of corruption.

Cheers,
Desi



"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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calipro says on May 31, 2007, 12:05:

My wife is colombian and she tips. If the tip isn't included in the bill she tips the waiter in cash, but never more than 5,000 pesos no matter how much the bill comes to.

She even tips the bag boys at Carrefour. They even have a can at the end of the register for that. It says it's for their educational expenses.

Upper class colombians tip although not a lot by american standards.

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toneloc24 says on May 31, 2007, 12:07:

Wow Desi Strangely and for one of the very few times over the years, I agree with you 100%. LOL!!!!

But, of course, you'll get the "they hate us for our freedom" type of response, as opposed to "thinking" about what they are doing and conveying. No matter what analogy you use, they still won't get it.

It really just cultural awareness and cultural respect. Unfortunately, some people seem to think that money replaces or overshadows both.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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cayita says on May 31, 2007, 12:14:

to clarify my post I am speaking of large charitable tips. I presumed you all knew that but maybe not?

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Ctg Bound says on May 31, 2007, 12:16:

cayita What is large charitable tips?

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Gomezman5 says on May 31, 2007, 12:16:

Desi is on a roll because I happen to agree with her too......on this one.

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 31, 2007, 12:17:

I, for one, dont like carrying around a pocketful of change... when i get home, it gets tossed in a glass water bottle for "mad money", or if on vacation, i give it to little kids..not trying to impress anyone, but i am not going to drag my glass water bottle all over the work for anyone.....its money, it gets passed around, every day and night....no problem here...=)

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo =)..aka, DragonSlayer..2-0..Colombia es pasión!

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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podborski says on May 31, 2007, 12:17:

I get it G5 and Desi I just honestly never would have thought of it that way (I'm pretty self centered dont ya know).

I'm still thinking on it, and can't say I've decided one way or the other, but you are swaying me.

When someone tries to overcharge me I get quite angry. Later I sometimes wonder why I was upset over a few pesos. MAYBE it's because I don't get any benefit from being overcharged, and in fact am being 'told' I am a gringo tonto, as opposed to the over tipping situation?

Interesting.

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cayita says on May 31, 2007, 12:21:

what is a big tip watch your Colombian friends and see what they tip and then do same.

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podborski says on May 31, 2007, 12:21:

I do think some people expect far too much from tourists, in the way of learning the language, culture, etc.

Some people have 2 weeks each year to travel. Say they want to go to Japan. Are they really going to be able to understand japanese language and culture before they go? Is it worth it for a 2 week visit? (Bit of an extreme example, but you know what I mean)

Personally I hope to visit almost every country on earth before I go. But I am not going to study Icelandic language/culture before I go, sorry! Who has the time?

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calipro says on May 31, 2007, 12:22:

Gomezman5 "Americans flashing money to show that they are "better". You don't have to be Colombian to understand that different cultures perceive the same actions differently, especially when the actions are coming from others that are not of their culture."

You might be right about there being a precieved difference in receiving a tip from a gringo and that from a colombiano but whose fault is that.

Is it better to recieve a tip from my colombian wife when she is paying 120,000 peso check for dinner and drinks in a nice resturant in her 250,000 peso deisel jeans or from me?

The difference is in the mind of the colombiano recieving the tip.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 31, 2007, 12:32:

I'm talking about excess tipping, of course because when in Colombia I tip like a Colombian. If I try to tip too much my friends just snatch the money away from the plate and stuff it in my purse saying "don't be a fool, girl!" I'm always out and about with local frinds and they try to keep me from making a fool of myself.

They also get very embarrassed when I pay the asking price for the papayas at a street corner or spend too much money on unnecessary things. They don't want people think that I'm just a silly tourist.

Cheers,
Desi

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 31, 2007, 12:39:

how much do you tip the guys that help you with the suitcase at the airport?
because everytime I tip them, they look at me with a face like thunder :S

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Cerealkiller says on May 31, 2007, 12:50:

I usually carry all my 17 suitcases on my own :P Or recruit some friends to help me out...for free.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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toneloc24 says on May 31, 2007, 12:56:

Wow Desi, 2 times in one day??? I agree with you??? The sky is falling or something. LOL!!!

I understand exactly what you're relating in your experiences. My local Colombian friends do exactly the same. It's like when I leave, they'd be expected by the local vendors to carry out the idiotic carefree financial behavior of a visitor "giving" away money.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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toneloc24 says on May 31, 2007, 13:03:

Kat1 From what I was told, 2.000 pesos per bag is sufficient.

I only carry-on bags, so I wouldn't know directly. But the Colombians that I've met in travel over the years have generally related this to me in conversation.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 31, 2007, 13:03:

LOL Tone I actually had to go to my balcony to see if the world was coming to an end; but no. The sky was still there.

Kat, they don't just scowl at me at the airport; they say "Lady, it's 5000 pesos per piece!" (or something like that, i don't remember the amount they said last time but they were pretty determined about it; not taking any loose change from the bottom of you purse.

Cheers,
Desi


"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Man Tequila says on May 31, 2007, 14:16:

I have occasionally overtipped in Colombia, especially my firt trip. Given taxistas 10% because I enjoyed their conversation and service, given restaurant servers 15% (minus the propina voluntaria) when they did a truly excellent job (especially giving me free stuff just so I could try it). People who say every Colombian server does a fantastic job due to their innate good nature are deluded. They might wonder how, if this is always true, any tourist could get overcharged in the first place. It's happened to me several times, sometimes I created a big stink and sometimes I noted it with mild resentment but decided it was not worth the hassle. I've heard gringos in Colombia complain for an hour about being overcharged twenty cents on a taxi ride. Not worth ruining your day over what I'd consider papas pequeñas. I'll tip the propina voluntaria for mediocre service and nothing for bad service. I'll tip better for excellent service (if genuinely received). But in general, I am thrifty, occasionally tacaño, but maybe less so than some, so sue me.


It is a nuisance when a hotel rate is much higher if I book it through expedia than if I call the hotel directly and ask for un discuento; or when some airlines charge more to foreigners. These differences can be significant, and are probably driven by the idea that folks from wealthier countries can pay more, supply and demand. This idea may be affected a little by tips, but probably not much. I'm more worried about a mandatory $100 gringo hotel or airline surcharge than a voluntary ten cent donation. I'm not convinced the latter causes the former, but I am not Colombian.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Leeroy says on May 31, 2007, 14:44:

So no-one ever tips ever?

Hmm...

I ritually "tip" the supermarket folks when they put all my bags in a trolley and wheel it out to the taxi rank, then help put the bags in the taxi. But then, that might not be "tipping", that might be "paying"...

I also tipped the bell-boy in a 4* hotel in Cartagena, he didn't look at all shocked - indeed, it seemed as it he was expecting it.

And, the other day, when I asked the shoe-shine man how much it would cost me he told me, then added "mas la propina"... I think I gave him 500 pesos more.

Were all of the above cases a matter of me being a dumb foreigner, tipping when I shouldn't have?

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Man Tequila says on May 31, 2007, 15:02:

I'm with podborski, a tourist need not know every local custom, and if you are in a country for one week and not one year you might not behave the same way.

Tipping is not a major concern of mine. I'd sometimes rather give the grocery bag boy a couple coins than carry them around.

You may disagree with this choice. I can live with that.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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David in Idaho says on May 31, 2007, 21:50:

Actually livefree, I've learned a lot on this site from some helpful, experienced gringos and the few gracious posters like Cayita who share authentic Colombian perspectives.

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Man Tequila says on May 31, 2007, 21:57:

The Colombian point of view is just that, a point of view. It's worth taking these perspectives into consideration. As for UC, whether he finds boar tits useful or not is his perogative.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Beef27 says on May 31, 2007, 22:35:

boars have tits to feed their young offspring. not necessarily directly useful to us, but in the end for those that eat wild boar, well they would all be dead without tetas to feed the kids. anyway, i agree and disagree with a lot that is said. You cannot generalize every "gringo" or should never do that with any culture as in this case saying tipping is flashing money. I have yet to go to Colombia, and am glad I read this post. I will know not to overtip, but how much is overtipping? what percentage do you pay in services? So say an ignorant gringo like me went to Colombia, and payed the standard 15-20% on a good service tip? This would be an insult? So what about that Colombian who comes to the USA, goes out and eats and receives good service, and tips $2 on a $45 meal? Would that be an insult? I think it is just ignorance until that person would learn this is how it is done in this country. Hell, I'm glad to tip less. More money for me to spend on other things! Plus, nor do I want prices going up on stuff just because ignorant people such as myself would be overtipping....not insulting Cayita. You're looking to deep I think. peace

Paul WallSemper Fi

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David in Idaho says on Jun 1, 2007, 05:59:

It's true ... Tits only grow on wild sows.

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jinksmiester says on Jun 1, 2007, 06:50:

In colombia i tip in restaurants (if the propina is not already included)and the service was decent and friendly.I do not throw my money away as you suggest cayita.I will most often tip a little the person who bags and helps me with groceries(i see manny people do this..colombians included).I do not tip taxies...although on the odd occation when i had hired a taxie for an entire day i did offer the driver to join me for lunch for which i paid.I also tip the person who may bring groceries or pizza`or whatever to my door and at the end of my stay(about a month)i would leave a tip to be split amoungst the workers at the aparta hotel i stay at.I would also tip the lady who cleaned my apartment daily.I don,t feel any of this is out of line nor do i think anyone was insulted by it.If i happen to cook to much for dinner i,ll often offer that to one of the apartment workers as well .I would do the same thing in my home country...I think that if id hoarded every little penny id look like a cheap a-hole.I think someone bringing groceries to my door would think im a cheap a-hole if i gave exact money and zero for his help...am i wrong??
If im bieng disrespectful....by trying to be respectful then that must mean no one should tip period and if thats the case then all colombians should stop tipping as well....after all im following the example they set and what i see them do i assume is correct.
Or is the problem partially... that if a gringo and a colombian visit a restuarant and tip exactly the same,the colombian will be seen as bieng respectful and the gringo will be seen as flashing money simply because he is a gringo?
To be fair, im sure some people do over tip ...probably not used to the colombian currancy or through lack of knowlage(im also sure some colombians happily take advantage of that)....but for most, its when in rome try to do as the romans.

A man is not old until regret takes the place of dreams

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griffbos says on Jun 1, 2007, 11:21:

Thanks Cayita maybe we can grab a coffe sometime, I don't see the point in personal attacks it doesn't score points and doesn't solve anything.

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lpdiver says on Jun 1, 2007, 20:56:

I enjoy tipping... I try to be intelligent about it though. I have always gotten a long thank you letter for leaving my loose coins at the hotel.

I left a generous tip at the bano after I was informed that I had paid the lady at the door with a counterfeit 500 peso coin. I was really embarassed.

t

"cook some rice!"

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Chelesupercono says on Jun 2, 2007, 09:31:

Gringo Tipsters Americans overtip in America!!! Why? I have no idea, but its true. I agree with DESI and Cayita 100% While tipping is certainly not a bad thing.....to much is simply stupid and sends the wrong message!

You know the term UGLY AMERICAN? There are many many reasons for it...and they just keep on coming....

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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