Goodbye, Sonia

platano says on Mar 9, 2005, 16:34:

Will Sonia be treated well in gringolandia? Sonia may be in danger of official USA torture practices.

I believe the FARC is considered to officially be a terrorist organization by the USA.

"...President Bush gave the agency [CIA] broad authority to export prisoners without getting permission from the White House or the Justice Department. Rendition has become central to antiterrorism operations at the C.I.A., which also operates clandestine camps around the world for prisoners it doesn't want the International Red Cross or the American public to know about. According to the Times article, the C.I.A. has flown 100 to 150 suspected terrorists to countries like Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Pakistan - each a habitual offender when it comes to torture...."

--"Torture by Proxy--Editorial, March 8, 2005 New York Times

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Sam Salmon says on Mar 9, 2005, 16:40:

Will 'Sonia' Be Treated Well? Who gives a shit?
Lock the bitch up forever!!!










' a la orden!'

' a la orden!'

0 funny, 0 helpful.

utopiacowboy says on Mar 9, 2005, 16:45:

You must be the only person on the planet that thinks any kind of prisoner exchange with the FARC is likely, Sonia or no Sonia. Personally I wish we hadn't extradited her or any of the cartel leaders. Let Colombia deal with its own problems.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

juancegomez says on Mar 9, 2005, 16:56:

I doubt I'm the only person on the planet that would want and prisioner exchange to happen, even if it's hard to accomplish under the right conditions. That's what most of the victims' families want, that's what most mediators (France, the Church, Switzerland, etc.) want, extradition or no extradition (though the extradition obviously complicates things). So I'm glad to be, at least symbolically, in such company.

Yes, there's a lot of stubborness here, but hey, if even Israel and Palestine (not to mention Hamas, or however that's spelled) can do prisioner exchanges, why can't Colombia (we've even done similar stuff on a smaller scale before)?

Perhaps it won't happen under Uribe, but Uribe's not going to be eternal.

"Let Colombia deal with its own (drug) problems" was practiced by the U.S. until the 1980's-1990's, with little positive effects.

Even if I don't agree with current U.S./Colombia drug policies at all, at least the threat of extradition to the U.S. and the actual act itself have resulted in getting rid of many of the more criminal elements involved in the business.

It doesn't solve the main problem, but since that would require structural strategy changes that aren't yet on the horizon, at least something's better than nothing.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kernow62 says on Mar 9, 2005, 17:10:

Tinto with respect; Platano's post was related to the possible torture of a Colombian citizen. Hence by your own wording on topic.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

utopiacowboy says on Mar 9, 2005, 17:17:

I didn't say you were the only one on the planet who WANTED it. You were the only one on the planet who thought it was likely. Even you conceded in your post that it was not likely so long as Uribe is in power. I still do not see why Colombia or its problems should be of the slightest concern to the US no matter how much cocaine they export. If we want to reduce the supply of cocaine into the US, let's take the measures necessary to reduce the demand. Nothing constructive can come from interfering in the affairs of other nations.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Mar 9, 2005, 17:38:

Another illegal post? Who gives a shit?
Lock the bitch up forever!!!

I believe this qualifies as "coarse language" and could also be seen as an attack on a person.

We may not agree with Sonia but she is a Colombian and she was acting on what she considered to be patriotic impulses for her vision of Colombia (whether we agree or not) and she is a human being who deserves equal treatment before the law.

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Sam Salmon says on Mar 9, 2005, 17:48:

Gimme a Break! "I believe this qualifies as "coarse language" and could also be seen as an attack on a person"
It is coarse language and it is an attack on a dope dealing murderer-so what?

"she was acting on what she considered to be patriotic impulses for her vision of Colombia "
By dealing Cocaine?
Oh man whatever you're on it must be good!
Or not-since it has caused you to lose all common sense and start apologising for drug trafficking murderers.







' a la orden!'

' a la orden!'

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Mar 9, 2005, 17:48:

Colombian prisoners in undisclosed Middle East locations Sonia will more than likely be interrogated on her
knowledge of what is happening in Colombia and as I stated before the USA
government does officially consider Sonia to be a terrorist.

It might be difficult to locate other Colombian prisoners in "undisclosed locations."

I will try going through the International Red Cross and Cruz Roja de Colombia.

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Sam Salmon says on Mar 9, 2005, 17:52:

When You Talk To 'Comrade Sonia' Tell her I wish her and her ilk all the worst in the world.
May the misery they have wreaked on the planet be visited on them in lives to come.
May they spend 1,000's of lives 'way down buffalo hell'




' a la orden!'

' a la orden!'

0 funny, 0 helpful.

juancegomez says on Mar 9, 2005, 18:18:

I don't believe that Sonia will be tortured because a)the U.S. isn't nearly as worried about her and her info as about people with AQ/Muslim Terror links b)because the U.S. isn't systematically torturing (or outsourcing torture) ALL THOSE people either.

In any event, even if she's a human being, as part of a criminal organization and as a criminal (until that organization stops acting in such a manner, which they could do if they wanted to do so and the government cooperated in making them realize that...which is easier said than done, on both counts), she legally deserves to rot in a small jail cell after she's declared guilty for her crimes (though I'd be willing to let them free her as part of an exchange, but not because I CARE about her in the least).

"I didn't say you were the only one on the planet who WANTED it. You were the only one on the planet who thought it was likely. Even you conceded in your post that it was not likely so long as Uribe is in power."

I conceded that because that's become almost a given in the current situation, but I can hope that the unexpected happens.

"I still do not see why Colombia or its problems should be of the slightest concern to the US no matter how much cocaine they export."

From a purely personal point of view, I'd agree.

But given the complexity of the situation and the complex interests both here and in the U.S., that's not going to cut it. Better to make the most out of such a situation then.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Mar 9, 2005, 19:33:

A question about gringo justice I don't know much about gringo system of justice but this statement of yours:
"she legally deserves to rot in a small jail cell after she's declared guilty for her crimes" makes it sound like she is guilty. In the USA isn't there a presumption of innocence? Your statement sounds so sweepingly certain "after she's declared guilty for her crimes".
Are you not open to the possibility of her innocence?

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

juancegomez says on Mar 9, 2005, 19:47:

I'm open to that possibility, but only very slightly. I can admit to that.

Why? Well, for starters, if we leave out all other alleged evidence (for the sake of simplicity, but today's EL TIEMPO has more details that, if true, would basically doom her), one of the strongest things that they have against her is a laptop with incriminating documents and other documentation that was captured along with her and her associates. That's pretty damning.

It is possible that she's NOT guilty? Yes, it's possible. But it'd be extremely surprising. I'd be willing to eat my words in that case.

She's already confessed to the crime of rebellion though, so at the very least she deserves jailtime for that and related crimes in Colombia, in the unlikely case that there's nothing else against her, which is doubtful.

"Along with her were seized documents and a laptop computer that provided much of the evidence that will be used against her in court."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/americas/4331673.stm

Presumption of innocence doesn't mean that the prosecution can't make its case, and the case seems rather strong, at least superficially.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Mar 9, 2005, 19:50:

Thanks!
Sounds like Sonia is going to spend 30 years to life behind bars. Or do you think they will give her the death penalty? It's legal to put Colombians to death in the USA, right?

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Mar 9, 2005, 19:54:

Is Sonia married?
I ask because it looks like she will be in jail for a long time.

In Colombia conjugal visits in prison are allowed but in the USA Sonia will be
without conjugal visits, correct?

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

juancegomez says on Mar 9, 2005, 19:56:

Nope, at least legally, she can't be sentenced to life in jail or to die, because those forms of punishment aren't legal in Colombia. That's the understanding, because there's no formal extradition treaty, but if the U.S. decides to ignore this, the Colombian Courts would be PO'ed.

The vast majority of the other extradited Colombians in the U.S. have been treated accordingly, and the one outstanding case seems to be in discussion precisely because one of the Courts complained.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

juancegomez says on Mar 9, 2005, 19:58:

I don't know enough about US laws and their applicability to this specific case, but since she's considered a dangerous prisioner, maybe that would depend entirely on her degree of cooperation.

She apparently has two children, but no idea if she's currently married or not.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Mar 9, 2005, 20:11:

No conjugal visits They are not allowed in federal prisons. In the state prison system, only six states allow them.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Mar 9, 2005, 20:12:

So Colombia Saved Sonia's Life!
If I understand correctly, the USA cannot do anything to a Colombian that is not permitted by Colombian laws, and since Colombia doesn't have life or death penalty then the Colombian legal system has saved Sonia's life! ¡Chevere! (I'm pro-life)

Platano thanks you. You have been very helpful.

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

utopiacowboy says on Mar 10, 2005, 08:30:

You're right, GIB, the Chinese are the only ones who know what they're doing. Hell, I love Chinese food and they've got some very hot women (second to Colombianas). Let's just go Chinese.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Gomezman5 says on Mar 10, 2005, 08:41:

UTC Send me a PM with your E mail, i have to ask you a Q

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Miguel says on Mar 10, 2005, 09:54:

Sofia I read ( I know, that's a dangerous thing to do), that they stuck her ass on a navy vessel after hearing about farc wanting to off her, after moving her out of a women's prison into that male carcel en Valledupar...Is that accurate?
I have a question for those of you more articulate and up to speed on CO/USA politics...when and why did the US government insist on the extraditons? Personally, I wish Colombia would deal with them. What is the advantage of the US prosecuting and "housing" them?
No entiendo.
Gomezman?
Sr. Tertius?

0 funny, 0 helpful.

greg says on Mar 10, 2005, 10:49:

Just politics The U.S. just wants to show another victory in the war on drugs, a war that was lost a long time ago. Looks better when they bring them to the U.S. I doubt it will be too long before someone steps in to fill her shoes.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

ColombianoX says on Mar 10, 2005, 12:00:

"when and why did the US government insist on the extraditons? Personally, I wish Colombia would deal with them. What is the advantage of the US prosecuting and "housing" them?"

Extradition is a good tool to combat narcotrafficking because many colombian mafiosos are horrified at the idea of being jailed in the US, where they can't corrupt officials. I personally am all for it, the way I see it we're taking the trash out of Colombia.


CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 10, 2005, 12:33:

An idea I don't think the US "insisted" on Sonia's extradition. Seems to me the USA is doing the Colombian government a favor by taking the burden of these people. If it weren't, the Colombian government wouldn't approve the extraditions.

In the case of people like Sonia it actually is a perverse truth that being imprisoned in the US probably "saves" her life, for whatever a life behind bars is worth. She knows too much to be allowed to live in a Colombian prison and possibly rat out others at the FARC.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Mar 10, 2005, 16:50:

Historical roots of extradition Actually I believe the roots of extradition go back to the government of Turbay Ayala which started negotiations with the gringos (with Secretary Cyrus Vance) in 1979. Virgilio Barco Vargas was also in on it. He was the Colombian ambassador to the USA. So it isn't like the USA forced it on Colombia. Both countries negotiated bilateral treaties that permitted legal extradition. Of course, this was a deal between representatives. The people never got to vote on it, just like Colombia signs the papers so empresas extranjeras can take our oil "legally". People never get to vote on these decisions and the people never have any idea whether elected officials will carry out what they promise in their campaigns. So voting for a candidate or a party, Liberal o Conservador, doesn't have much meaning. Es un placebo.

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Miguel says on Mar 10, 2005, 22:55:

Thanks to all I appreciate the perspectives.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

stevens says on Mar 11, 2005, 11:36:

GIB You need to listen to a Tibetan talk about how China has demolished aver 90 percent of it's temples in an attempt to destroy it's culture. Or someone from Taiwan, where they have to constantly look over their shoulders towards China.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Neonovo says on Mar 11, 2005, 12:55:

Habla guerrillera extraditada
Entrevista cortesía de la cadena RCN


La mujer conocida como "Comandante Sonia" de las Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia, FARC, y extraditada ayer a Estados Unidos aseguró que ese país le ofreció inmunidad a cambio de información.

En entrevista con la cadena RCN de Colombia, la guerrillera negó ser una "pieza clave en el negocio del narcotráfico" como la han catalogado los estadounidenses.

Según las autoridades colombianas se trata de Omaira Rojas Cabrera, jefa de finanzas del bloque sur de las Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia, las FARC, quien tenía a su cargo el tráfico de drogas de la guerrilla en Colombia.

Ella, sin embargo, asegura que no ocupaba un cargo alto dentro de la organización y aunque reconoce que en las FARC era conocida como "Sonia", asevera que su verdadero nombre es Anayibe Rojas Valderrama.


¿Por qué ingresó a las FARC?

Yo ingresé a las FARC de manera libre y voluntaria. Yo vivía en una región apartada del país donde no hay presencia del Estado, no pude estudiar, mi estudio es segundo primaria, tampoco habían formas de trabajo, mi familia, es muy pobre, honesta, y trabajadora.

Por eso decidí ingresar a las FARC, porque esa era un área de influencia guerrillera y me gustó la forma de cómo actuaba las FARC y miré en ellos un cambio para éste país.

¿Cómo se da su captura?

A mí me mandaron al pueblo a llevar unos encargos con otros tres muchachos (...)

Eran como las 10 y media de la noche y pasábamos cerca a una finca y decidimos quedarnos, golpeamos y pedimos permiso para quedarnos, nos dijeron que sí, nos acostamos y no colocamos la guardia porque por allá es una zona donde nunca iba el ejército, prácticamente hacía como tres años había ido y no había vuelto...

Nos acostamos a dormir y a las 2 de la mañana llegó el ejército en helicópteros...

¿Cuándo la trasladan a Bogotá qué pasa?

Nos llevaron al búnker de la fiscalía, allí nos hicieron las indagatorias, como a los tres días o cuatro días, entró una gente y se identificó como de la embajada americana, entraron unos señores que solamente hablaban inglés, una señora les traducía.

Me hicieron muchas preguntas yo les respondí lo que yo sabía, después entonces ellos me dijeron que si yo no colaboraba, entonces que me iban a extraditar


Hablaron con nosotros, conmigo, me hicieron muchas preguntas yo les respondí lo que yo sabía, después entonces ellos me dijeron que si yo no colaboraba, entonces que me iban a extraditar y que tenía que pasar muchos años en los Estados Unidos, entonces yo les respondí, pues que me extraditaran porque yo no sabía nada y que lo que yo sabía de las FARC ya se los había dicho ahí, que yo no conocía nada más.

¿Qué le preguntaron?

Ellos me preguntaron de los gringos que tienen las FARC, que dónde los tenían, que quién los tenía, que cómo se llamaban los comandantes de las FARC, yo les dije que yo conocía igual que conocía todo el país, que los conocía por televisión y les sabía los nombres por que por televisión los daban.

Usted jamás supo de ellos...

Nada, yo nunca supe de ellos. Ellos mismo fueron los que me dijeron a mí que las FARC me iba a matar, entonces yo les pregunté que ¿por qué? Me dijeron que porque yo sabía mucho y que tenía mucha información y que entonces me iban a matar para que yo no hablara.

Entonces les dije pues que lo hicieran porque yo no sabía nada, que lo que sabía ya se los había dicho a ellos.

Usted sabe que está solicitada en extradición hacía los Estados Unidos. ¿Sabe por qué es solicitada?

Lo que se ha leído en todo el proceso y en el indictment que manda Estados unidos que me piden por narcotráfico solamente.

¿El frente al que usted pertenece tenía negocios de narcotráfico?

Hasta donde yo conozco, no, no conozco nada de narcotráfico, ni sé que las FARC sea narcotraficante.

En la parte en donde tiene presencia el frente 14 de las FARC ¿hay cultivos ilícitos?

Sí. Eso sí hay cultivos ilícitos, porque eso no se puede desconocer, ni el sol se puede tapar con un dedo, eso por allá en esa región todas las personas que viven en esa zona viven de eso, porque no hay presencia del Estado y la gente no tiene de qué más vivir.

Usted dice que las FARC no son narcotraficantes, pero ¿ustedes cobran un impuesto por los cultivos?

Yo no conozco eso, nunca conocí eso, no sé si lo hagan o no.

¿A usted las personas que la interrogaron estando en Bogotá por parte de la embajada de Estados Unidos le ofrecieron algún pacto o algún acuerdo de colaboración?

Ellos me dijeron que les colaborará y que los comandantes de las FARC eran narcotraficantes y que me llevaban para Estados Unidos, que de lo contrario si no colaboraba, me extraditaban y me metían a un cuarto oscuro donde metían a todos los terroristas y que tenía que pasar muchos años allá sin ver a mi familia.

¿Qué le ofrecieron en concreto dentro de ese pacto o acuerdo de colaboración?

Que me llevaban para Estados Unidos y llevaban mi familia.

¿Usted aceptó en algún momento alguna parte de ese acuerdo?

No acepté ninguna clase de ese acuerdo, ni acepto ninguna parte de ese acuerdo, con Estados Unidos no tengo nada que negociar, mi único delito es pertenecer a las FARC.

¿Sabe que a usted la califican también como jefe de finanzas de ese frente?

Con Estados Unidos no tengo nada que negociar, mi único delito es pertenecer a las FARC


Sé que los medios están hablando que soy comandante de finanzas de ese frente, pero no soy comandante de finanzas de ese frente, para una persona ejercer esa función tiene que ser una persona con una capacidad de un nivel académico elevado, mi nivel de estudio es segundo de primaria y creo que eso no me permite para yo ejercer esa función.

¿Usted creé que hay la posibilidad de que se de en Colombia el intercambio humanitario?

Pues en estos momentos todo es difícil porque este gobierno prácticamente no quiere otra cosa con las FARC que sea guerra.

¿Usted cree que con el comunicado que hubo hace poco de las FARC, condicionando el intercambio a lo que usted conoce, es más difícil que sé de ese intercambio con este gobierno?

Lo que yo pienso es que las FARC no están condicionando ningún intercambio, lo que está poniendo es las cosas sobre el tapete y exigiendo la liberación de los miembros de las FARC que se encuentran retenidos en las cárceles del país.

¿Usted cree que de pronto sería factible el intercambio sin que esté presente alguna de las tres personas que con nombre propio (Simón Trinidad, Rodrigo Granda y ella) puso las FARC en ese comunicado?

Si no se da eso, por ejemplo si en estos momentos no regresan a Simón Trinidad no va a haber ningún intercambio.

Constantemente se ha informado de la presunta colaboración del gobierno bolivariano de Venezuela con las FARC, ¿usted ha tenido conocimiento de ese tipo de colaboración?

No conozco ningún tipo de esa colaboración.

¿Qué piensa sobre la paz en nuestro país?

Usted sabe que aquí en el país, mientras haiga hambre, haiga miseria y haiga abandono por parte del Estado no habrá paz en Colombia.

¿Qué le duele que esté pasando en Colombia?

Me duele que esté pasando hoy, de mirar tantas injusticias que hay, tanto abandono que hay por parte del Estado, dónde hay tanta gente muriéndose de hambre, sin empleo, sin educación, sin salud.

Nota de BBCMundo.com:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/hi/spanish/latin_america/newsid_4336000/4336877.stm

Publicada: 2005/03/10 15:46:25 GMT

© BBC MMV

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Mar 11, 2005, 12:56:

There goes another one (judge shot dead)
NPR Morning Edition, March 11, 2005 · A search is under way for a man who shot and killed a judge, a court reporter and a deputy at Atlanta's Fulton County Courthouse. The suspect, Brian Nichols, reportedly shot Judge Rowland Barnes with a gun he grabbed from a police officer in the courthouse. Nichols escaped in a hijacked car.

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

pepster says on Nov 12, 2005, 08:31:

Bye bye Sonia... I just came across this thread and it just shocks me how anyone can defend a drug dealer. I mean the things I read on this thread...like will she be treated well...will she be executed? Why? Why should anyone care? This horrible person's terrorist organization has slaughtered and kidnapped thousands of innocent people. Destroyed their lives forever. This evil useless excuse of a human facilitated the money so the FARC could continue to terrorize and murder the innocent citizens of Colombia.

So to you Sonia, may you rot in hell.

The Pepster

ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

0 funny, 0 helpful.