Going to University in Bogota

Gomezman5 says on Jan 4, 2005, 08:23:

Both are good but...... The hearsay that has come your way about Los Andes is most unforutnate. Sure, much of its student body come from families of wealth. That is because many of those families were themselves educated at Los Andes and then went on to obtain good well compensated postitions. In the US, many of the students that go to Harvard, Yale, Princton, and University of Chicago for example also come from wealthy families, but that does not mean that any of those fine institutions of higher learning should be discredited. In fact, if you want to work in the best law firms in Colombia, Los Andes is definitely the school to go to. At the same time, many of Colombia's presidents went to Los Andes also. Los Andes is a fine school

Universidad Nacional is also a very fine school. It is not that Universidad Nacional neccesarily has any more political awareness than Los Andes, it's just that it is a hotbed of socialist radical thinking. Many guerillas symapathisers attended there. In fact, I would go so far as to say that because of it's reputation for being a hot bed in radical politics, some organizaitons might pre judge a student and that might affect them in the future in terms of job seeking potential.

I hope this helps

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kernow62 says on Jan 4, 2005, 09:03:

Good post Gomezman.

I wouldn't have thought to include University of Chicago in with Harvard, Yale etc. ;-)

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zid says on Jan 4, 2005, 10:01:

Hello. Of the university de los Andes I have good references, they have told me that truly it is good. The national one has very good academic level but it is something conflicting. I believe that it is better that of the Andes.
If you want to know bogotá you go to the following web:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=125527

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Mariangela says on Jan 4, 2005, 10:36:

Los Andes is very good Los Andes is a very good university. The campus is very nice. Only the best students in Colombia are admitted there. It has a great reputation. Some of the best leaders and professionals in Colombia have graduated from Los Andes. It is not a cheap University, so that is why a lot of the students come from families with money. But they are fun, neat people.
Universidad Javeriana is also very good. I studied there! It is a Jesuit's University.
Universidad Nacional has a good level but it is also the nest of political conflict due to the presence of communist activists that love o protest and cause turmoil. I think Los Andes or La Javeriana are much safer for a foreigner.

Mariángela

Mariángela

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juanalejo says on Jan 4, 2005, 11:08:

Los Andes I agree with Mr Gomez completely, I think Los Andes in term of quality is the best University in Colombia. The rich kids reputation may be partially true, but it also stands as a fantastic University academically. National University is also very good, it would be a very different adventure, but I can not say anything bad, except the occasional riots. Javeriana is also very good, but I rather Los Andes.

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Thededalus says on Jan 4, 2005, 11:48:

Los Andes Pcgoldham,

I am an American who studied at Los Andes for one year (two semesters and a summer course). My major was engineering with a minor in Spanish. While at Los Andes, I took several engineering courses, some Spanish courses for foreigners and a Spanish literature course for natives.

My first was the literature course and it was tough, but taught well. To be honest, my Spanish wasn't nearly good enough to be taking the course, but I was fortunate enough to get good help from classmates. The Spanish classes for foreigners were excellent and much more manageable (for me, anyways). The engineering courses (four in total) were mostly just okay. I think the quality of instruction at my home university, with a national good-but-not-great reputation, was better.

That said, I am pleased with the instruction that I got and I was able to do well in these courses. Overall, I took a lighter load than I would have in the US to compensate for my Spanish. You may want to do the same depending on your Spanish level and goals. My question is, how much do you really care about the quality of instruction? For me, it was second to my desire to study abroad, learn Spanish, learn a new culture and not fall behind too much credit-wise back home.

Anyways, if I had to do over again, I would. The los Andes campus is one of prettiest and unique that I've seen, and the students are fine. In my experience they weren't snobs and most were hardly uber-rich. In my limited experience, I didn't notice a difference in the people that I met from Los Andes from students at la Tadeo, la Javeriana or la Nacional. The snobby, rich-kid reputation in my opinion is mostly kicked around by people who haven't went there or don't really know anybody well who has went there.

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kernow62 says on Jan 4, 2005, 14:14:

Universidad Javeriana is a very good school as others have mentioned, it should certainly be considered. At least according to my wife who like Mariangela also studied there.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 4, 2005, 14:50:

How could I forget Javeriana ?? I don't know how I could forget Pontificia Universidad Javeriana.
By all means, add that to the list. By the way, if you are a young single guy, this place has a reputation for some very beautiful ladies that attend there. I .....kind of can speak from personal experience. But academically, you will not go wrong either.

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adela says on Jan 4, 2005, 14:52:

Universidad Nacional
She is the best precisely because the best teachers are there, the students are from all social classes and the campus is so, so nice. O.k there are communists people...so what? What's the problem with socialist, or comunist people? I wish to be a real socialist, so what ah? !!
Socialists used to claim for social justice in Colombia. Why gringos are afraid for words like "socialism"? Don't understand!. I think is because the media's false information.

Nothing like Universidad Nacional. One detail: look the place where the professors have best profile and student requires the higher academy score: only at La Nacional.

Mariángela: if you are talking about safe environment of Los Andes(yes Los Andes is good too, but you said: only for rich people) you should see the poor neighborhood around Los Andes, there is also close to La Candelaria, a no safe neighborhood but plenty of colombian taste.

La Javerina pay very bad to its professors and have not access to basic rights. I can say that because my husband is one of them!

Màs fe, màs abrazos, màs besos, màs disculpas, màs visitas a nuestros amigos antiguos nos haràn màs plenos cada vez.

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Mariangela says on Jan 4, 2005, 14:59:

Mariángela

Mariángela

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pcoldham says on Jan 4, 2005, 15:09:

Thanks for the replies everyone!

I didn't mean to be disparaging about the Uni de los Andes, the main obstacle for me is really the expense of going there. Quality of instruction is really important to me (I've been studying Spanish literature in Spanish for 2 years now, so my language level is pretty high already), but the most important factor is definitely to get myself a well-rounded Colombian experience, and it sounds like the Nacional might offer a grass-roots element that the other two might not. I suppose when it comes down to it, I'll measure overall quality against costs. I'm not convinced about the safety element of studying with communists though - after all, they're just students, aren't they? Of course I'm going to be concerned about safety, but I don't really see the threat - though maybe i'm just being a hot-headed teenager!

I'd welcome any further comments on life in Bogota, especially for young people. I suppose I'll have to look for my own accomodation - which are the nice/cheap areas to live?

Peter
(19)

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Thededalus says on Jan 5, 2005, 09:18:

..... PC,

A few more comments.

I also had taken some Spanish literature courses in Spanish back home before going to Bogota and it was a world of difference b/c the US classes were full of gringos who spoke Spanish as a second language...
Be that as it may, you may want to schedule a heavy load and see how it goes. If it proves to be too much, you can drop a couple courses. In fact, I would recommend this anyways, even if you want a lighter load, so you can pick and choose the best classes that suit you.

Also, as for quality of instruction, like everyone else has said here, you should be fine at any of the places mentioned. After that, it really is just hit and miss as, like anywhere else, there are good professors and not-so-good professors. Once you decide on a place, get in touch with their exchange-student office (assuming they have one...los andes does) and ask around about different courses and professors for recommendations.

Location-wise, I would say Javeriana is the best. It's between downtown and la Zona Rosa and along the Carerra 7a, which is one of the main roads, so you have access to loads of transportation. It's also reasonably close to the 26, which takes you to the airport. Good &neighborhoods would include Chapinero or Alto Chapinero.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 5, 2005, 10:34:

Pccoldham---consider this ! He is right....and if you are looking for a well rounded expeerience javeriana is really your best bet. The others don't have that benefit. You will be near the centro and 10-15 minutes from zona rosa.

Other factors....will you have a car? If no car..Javeriana is it.
Other wise you can find housing near the others, but you will be far from everything elsw..

You said you want a well rounded Col experience. you have said that twice..I will tell you this. Nacional is NOT a well rounded Col experience. The school clearly has an agenda. If you want to be in an enviornment that extolls the virtues of protests, civil disobedience, and quasi revolution (both faculty and staff) than Nacional is for you. But I would not under any circumstances say it is representative of the majority of Colombians. It's not. period.

Look, if what you want is to get a feeling for Colombia, its culture, it people, and their mentality, you will find that at any fine university. Remember, you are not from there. So any school is going to provide you what you are looking for. There are socialist at Los Andes and Javeriana as well. Don't kid yourself, but it is at shools like those where you will get a feeling of what Colombians from all walks of life are from...

As to the cost...remember, by Colombian standards they are expensive.
But by US and European standards they are still pretty cheap. I mean University of Chicago tuition is about $20,000 per year. You can get your entire University for that price in Col---less probably

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 5, 2005, 10:47:

adela, you said:"Socialists used to claim for social justice in Colombia. Why gringos are afraid for words like "socialism"? Don't understand!. I think is because the media's false information."

I've had this discussion often with people from USA, and frankly, most of them had no idea what "socialism" actually even meant. They think it's theat hard-core, totalitarian (marxism)(maoism) of Communist China, North Corea, Cuba etc. but they have no idea what it is to live in a country like Sweden, Portugal, Italy or Sweden, for example, where socialdemocrats have had power for longer periods, alternating with right-wing governments. Sweden is often called "the socialist paradise" which is false on both accounts: the majority of people here do have a lot of social democratic ideals, however, it's a mixed economy society and the old-style social democracy with a lot of state ownership (postal service, educational institutes, communication, health care) practically has disappeared. Everything has been privatized (economically unsustainable), but the heart of the people is still located on the left side of their bodies. Paradise it has never been, but has been called that for the classless society, the basic individual welfare and security, the opportunities to study and progress for everybody, low-cost healt care for everybody (not only for those who can pay).

There's a lot of those socialists still left in Colombia who once dreamed about bringing more social justice to their society. I'm not talking about the guerrilla; they strayed away from their former idealism and cannot be considered politically anything any longer. I'm talking of many men and women, now greying and struggling in their country or in exile, who used to think that way. They have been disillusioned and have taken distance from their ideals, because the road taken by the guerrilla into delinquency, terror and dirty war.

Some of them are still politically active: rallying around their candidato unico Carlos Gaviria Diaz(Moir, the political left in Colombia, Alternativa Democratica), some support Navarro Wolff or have Luis Carlos Garzón or the governor of Valle, Angelino Garzón as their political leaders.

Most of them have given up. Being a socialist in Colombia in these days is a professional suicide.

But you're right, adela,
there's nothing wrong being a socialist. Some of them are the best people I know.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 5, 2005, 11:10:

Desi--good point but....... Most Americans can seperate the socialist system of economics versus what a totalitarian of facist form of government is. Look, we have a form of socialism that even die hard capitalist don't want to admit we have. We have social security, we have medicare, we have medicaid, we have public housing of vaious sorts, and now only last year, the congress passed legislation granting drug benefits to be added to their medicare. So if that is not a form of socialism, what is.

With all that said however, I have two points. First often and historically, socialst economic systems were the only economic systems available to people that lived under totalitarian rule. it was just another mechanism that that the politcal apparatus used to control the populace. Chaves in Venezuela is the best exapmple. This main is a strong man dictator and a socialist at the same time. Dictators like do do all that they can to control the economym, and the easiest way to do so is to get rid of capitalism...What was the first thing that Fidel did when he took over cuba? He through out any sign of what represented the corporate world.

My other point as to why capitalist don't like socialism is a simpler one. Would you like the government one day telling you that everything that you own, all the money and risk that you invested, is now the governments? That's what happens. Do you really think that they will buy you out, at a fair value?? I think not. Additioinally, most people, not all, but most people, tend to live better and have a higher sense of self fulfillment in capitalist countries. For example, the medical industry. It is expensive here.
But it is the best as well. We have the best technology, and because the doctors are extremely well paid, the best doctors from all over the world try to come here to practice. Why? because of the money that is drawn into the system. Canada, our neighbors to the north--when they are sick......and if they have money, do you think they rely on the canadian system for medical care? No not at all. I have been told that you literally may die waiting for a test or procedure.
So socialism has its benefits, but.......I'll stick with the capitalist system

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 5, 2005, 11:37:

I don't know if I really would want to live in a country where the corporate world has taken over the legitimite political power from the governments.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 5, 2005, 11:48:

Desi...I don't think I said.... or even implied that....not at all.

People in this country still have a vote. They vote for their power at all levels. In fact, to support my contention, Kerry had raised much more money than Bush. Either he himself directy or political groups sympathetic to Kerry. Yet, the electorate has spoken, in spite of Kerry's financial advantage, in spite of a liberal media, with the exception of the only fair media in this country in the nameof Foxnews, Bush still managed to get reelected.

I want as little government in my life as possible. I don't want them in my life socially, economically or otherwise. Socialism, by definition means more government--tellinng how to do things, when, and under what conditions. In fact, that is what I love about Colombia, government is not in our day to day lives in Colombia nearly as much as it is here in the US. The US has rules,rules on top of rules, and many exceptions that that even the people who should know about these exceptions---don't.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 5, 2005, 12:18:

I didn't say that you had implied that. It's a just a very private fear that I have concerning the US type of caapitalism. For me, both Kerry and Bush represent the interests of the corporate world and no one of them would have gotten my vote, had I been a US citizen.
I think that the never in the history have people made a choice that least serves their own interests, especially considering the proportionof vote obtained by Bush among the poorest. But that discussion has no place here, and not on this board.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 5, 2005, 12:31:

Desi I agree.....niether were the best choice U have a good point. It seems like in this country, we are always choosing between the lesser of the two evils and never the best candidate. There are many other problems and complexities that make your form of government not very practical or feasible here. We have a huge underclass....much harder than Sweden has and that makes having a socialist system here difficutlt. With a huge underclass many more wealthy would be contributing, and getting little in return.
The underclass would be taking a lot, and contributing very little.

Anyway.....this board always gets of on a tangent...I have seen this in the short time I have been here. I just wish people con learn not to get so insulting. It's good to have disagreement. But people need to keep it civil and the debate will be more productive and informative....You contribute a lot and you keep it civil...to your credit.

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Lionheart says on Jan 5, 2005, 13:16:

Desi, Gomez I would love to add my 2 cents to the observations since I lived in Germany for 30 years, a whole new perspective. But Gomez is right, it doesn't belong in this forum. But I do want to comment about some statements.

I am used to Socialists and Capitalists as in left-wing and right-wing political parties, not too far from the middle. When I read fairly neutral news I have no problems with the views of Latin-American parties expressing themselves.

When I read US news and listen to US Americans I get a knot in my stomach. To most US people socialist means communist, thanks to McCarthy. Both democrats and republicans are right-wing factions. So when I read US news about countries with a balanced political system I always need to consider the rightish view when reading. And some views are as extreme as McCarthy. Just because a Latin American politician is a Socialist does not mean he is Communist and agrees with Fidel Castro. He migh respect Fidel more, but there is a huge difference still.

Just last night I was reading articles about Uribe and Chavez and their current issues. I read two versions, BBC and CNN. BBC tried to be neutral and showed understanding for Chavez, CNN didn't.

Gomez, how well do you know the various European countries? You made some comments earlier that beg for correction. This doesn't belong here, but please add this to your mind-set: Take a close look at many US corporations and their money-makers ... how many of them are controled by a European corporation today and how many main products were originally patented in Europe? How many of these corporations control the industry in Brazil and Chile today? How many are setting up their basis in Colombia today? Europe may not talk much but they sure know how to perform.

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juanalejo says on Jan 5, 2005, 13:34:

Mr Gomez I disagree with you in that most Americans know the difference between Capitalism and Socialism. Most of the Americans I have met through my life tend to think that Capitalism = Democracy and Socialism = Dictartorship. You might be right about Mr. Chavez trying to control everything, but if you look at him carefully his less left than most of the other presidents in Latin America today. I have watched his Alo Presidente´s a few times (well a bit of it as they usually last hours) and he says nothing, he is just a populist, that is another story, but watch Lula or Kichner and there you see a different politacl story. Even look at Chile, the best running economy is Latin America and it has been socialists who have been in power since democracy returned.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 5, 2005, 14:04:

that has also been my observation juanalejo,
I'd venture to say that the broad majority of the People of the United Sates do not know the difference. Many Colombians do not either, judging by the posting from "Gran Colombia" group that I'm also subscribed to. I am always appalled at their basic lack of knowledge of the modern social democracy and how it operates in many European countries.

Actually, I've been entertaining some notions that maybe a moderate, middle-of-the road social democracy would not be such a bad choice for Colombia either.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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adela says on Jan 5, 2005, 15:20:

politically correct
What is politically correct? I don't know, I just said " I wish to be a real socialist.. !!"...that's all.

and Yes, Lioheart! you noted that CNN is not neutral about Chavez goverment!.

Here in Colombia, I am really dissapointed about guerrilla's lost ideals (you're right Desi), but I think we have to judge guerrilla's leaders, and not just send them to US..what a shame!

Here there is a man, a congressman who did belong to M-19. His name is Gustavo Petro. I admire him so much. He defends losts social causes every week during congress sesions. I wish you to know more about him(and yes, Navarro too).

Talking about La Javeriana and the elite: :(

Màs fe, màs abrazos, màs besos, màs disculpas, màs visitas a nuestros amigos antiguos nos haràn màs plenos cada vez.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 5, 2005, 15:28:

yes, adela Petro is another good old socialist defending the lost causes, like Don Quijote fighting against the windmills.
I was a little intrigued by your comment of wishing to be real socialist. There's a lot of good people in Colombia who share that wish. What's stopping you? Because you want to be politically correct, and being a socialist is not that?
Heck, I don't even know what it takes to be a "real socialist". To have a conscience? To care about the other people? To want wealth to be distributed in equal portions among the people? For everybody have the same opportunity to progress economically in spite of the individual wealth and family background? Can that be such a bad thing?
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 5, 2005, 16:16:

Juanlejo and others I don't know what circles you hang in. Any person in this country who has recieved a higher education (college/university), I can say with certaintly, knows the difference. You are not giving Americans enough credit. I would even go so far as to say that most high school educated people know the difference. Good Grief man, this is not complex political theory. But I will not argue this point any further.

What I will say, your seriously misinformed about Chile. Don't confuse western style socialism with the adoption of certain policies that have social underpinings. Chile has one of the most successful capitalistic policies in all of Latin America. Allende was a pure socialist, and when he was deposed, there has been no looking back.
From what realm do you come from in saying Chile's system of economics is socialist. Consider this, and your are going to have abig problem rebutting this, why did Chile recently PRIVATIZE its national pension system? Does that sound socialist to you? That move in and of itself could not be more reflective of the government's interest in maintaing a capitalistic economy. In fact, that is the very thing that Bush wants to do with social security here...and he only want to let the people privatize %2 and still he is running into opposition.....If you get to Miami, and you run into Don Franciso, ask him how socialist is. Do you have any idea how much bussiness this very wealthy Chilean owns in Chile? He owns a lot more than
Sabado Gigante......bet on it

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Lionheart says on Jan 5, 2005, 16:29:

Chile Gomez, you are right about Chile. Before I decided to move to Colombia Chile was on my list of eligible countries for finding a good job. Reasons I voted against Chile: they are trying to be better than Argentina and Spain. This means they are rock hard employers with absolute capitalistic goals, even worse than corporate USA, which I am escaping from.

I had discussions with well-educated engineers here in the states, they had no clue about socialism or Europe ... Munich is in Germany? oooh ... What, Paris isn't capital of Germany? etc etc

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 5, 2005, 16:49:

Lionhear...Americans and geography--bad combination Where Juanalejo came up with this idea about Chile being socialist is beyond me? But he know a ton about Colombia and Bogota....

Anyway, I did my undergraduate and my doctorate of Law here. I can safely tell you, in my many year of education, including private schools, I never learned a hill of beans about Geography. OK, I knew europe better than most because I minored in european history.
It's just was not in the curiculum and from what I know, it's still not taught.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 5, 2005, 16:59:

juanalejo is right about Chile. Ricardo Lagos is a moderate socialist, a socialdemocrat. He's doing exactly the same things in Chile as our social democratic government with Göran Persson as Prime Minister in Sweden is doing

Mr Lagos, who is widely regarded as moderate leftist, will be Chile's first socialist president since Salvador Allende was overthrown some 27 years ago. BBc News.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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juanalejo says on Jan 5, 2005, 17:09:

Mr Gomez You say you understand what socialism means, and look at your answer. Chile has been since the return of democracy governed by a coalition of parties that are left and center-left, who have been able to balance the need for a better social system that could fund itself for the benefit of the people. Just like the Spanish did after Franco and which turned Spain into one of the largest econmies in the world. Or you did not now that the socialists have been in power since the death of Franco until Aznar came into power and they are now back running the country. Having a pension system is social, not owning it. Many of the European governments are struggling with its pension scheme and so are all of the Latin American countries, Chile privatized and we followed suit, did it work? Time shall tell, but it seems more people are covered now by both the pension scheme´s and the medical coverage than before, both here and in Chile. And that was done under a gobierno liberal, Colombian party that is a permanent member of the Internacional Socialista.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 5, 2005, 17:21:

Lagos is no Allende If he was, the American press and Bush would be beating the drum everyday, There is a difference between adopting certain principle of socialism of socialism and taking an economy that is capitalistic, and having the government take complete control by nationalizing it.
Chavez has tried to do this a few times, and has failed.

Like I said, Don Francisco would have sold is megamillions (USD) in assets if that were the case. Additiionally, like I said, Chile recently privatized their entire national pension fund...That does not sound socialistic to me.

Sweden is a social democracy. The eoconomy is not socialist one.
I think there would be big problems in Sweden if one day the elected president unilaterally declare that he/she was going to take over Saab and Volvo. The same with Erricsson....

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 5, 2005, 17:35:

that's not the way the modern social democracy operates, gomezman5. They don't nationalize, but rather try to keep a balance between what is economically sustainable and which is not. The social democratic government in Sweden has allowed the privatization of the education, postal services, public transportation etc.in the recent years. Our pensions are deposited in private funds and we choose ourselves how we wish to have our pensions placed on the money market.
The Swedish government have absolutely no plans or desire to take over Volvo, or Saab or Ericsson. And, btw, we don't have a president.
Sweden is a constitutional monarchy, with King Carl Gustav and Queen Silvia (German-Brasilian) as the heads of state, but with no political power at all.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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juanalejo says on Jan 5, 2005, 18:05:

Mr Gomez Socialism is not Comunism. In Comunism the government controls every part of the economy, like in China, where private money is allowed where the government feels it is convenient. In Socialism the policies dictated by the government are thought on behalf on the total population´s needs, usually high taxes are the norm to redistribute wealth, and social classes are difficult to be seen. In Capitalism money talks, beacuse money is supposed to create more money and hopefully that will reach everybody´s pocket. In Capitalism, class distiction is part of the system as keeps people motivated to create more wealth. That is why there is such a different way of thinking between Europeans and Americans, Americans want to live to make money and Europeans want to make money to live. I am a big car fan, and one of first things that struk me was the fantastic taxis and police cars in Europe, yet after being around there for a while you realize that a Mercedes or Volvo or Peugeot is symbol of good quality for them, hence the ammount of these cars in taxis and police cars around. For an American a Jaguar or a Cadillac is symbol of being rich, so people buy them for that only reason. A Cadillac SUV can be a Chevrolet rebadged, but an American will buy it as it means social class, a European will find that difference unacceptable. It is a very over simplistic way of seeing things, but for me Socialism has more of my way of being. Now comes the question why do I like Uribe? Maybe because he has raised taxes like no other before, maybe because he is using those taxes (besides our controversial subject) to build infrastructure, because I watch his Saturday visits around the country and see a different man, one that has a country in his head and wants it to work for the benefit of all. So he might be seen as an ultraderechista, but in his head his economic system is quite a social one.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 5, 2005, 18:41:

juanalejo would you please specify? I'm referring to the economical policies of Mr. Uribe. I've thought all the time that this is exactly one of his weak points, being surrouded with all the neoliberal/globalist advisors he seems to favor.
Which part of it is social? What has he accomplished? To me all his economical policies have been about TLC and such.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 5, 2005, 19:25:

Very informative.........Thanks Desi and Juanalejo.....
Juanacito
I see your points....I think I can agree with majority of what you have written. However, most Americans, realize the value and quality of foreign cars..In fact, that has cause American cars to be of much better quality. Except, Americans have moved to Japanese cars which quality wise and dollar for dollar, there are non better. They are exceptionally well built, they are practical, part are cheaper and readily available, and have a resale value that is actually better than European cars.. Consistently, the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord are examples of what I am saying. Soooo Americans woke up a long time ago when it came to make wise car purchases.

Now, I fundimentally understand your argument.....Desi's too. Except American is different, and you know that Juanalejo. Our underclass,,,a substantial amount of people that are lazy, don't want to work, are not motivated to work, makes it a virtual impossibility,for the majority of people to ever support any concept that calls for the redistribution of wealth. And why should we? If anything, we are becoming more like latin america....where in virtuall any country, there is no such thing as unemployment insurance or welfare, or food stamps. In Colombia, Mexico, or just pick your country in latin America, Do you know any country where you can get a check to do nothing but stay home. Where you can get your food paid for for free?..you see, most Ammericans got fed up with this in recent years. I work, and I feel so should everyone else if you are physicaly able to do so

The result is we are cutting back more and more. And guess what? When you take away the money.....people work. Listen there has to be a reason pregnant Mexican women cross the border illegally...every day///Why???? Free hospital, free doctors,free food stamps, free education for her children...all this and their own country (Mexico)doesn't give them a thing.....Anymore than colombia does.

My aunt is Swedish, she used to think like you guys too. Until of course she saw how certain groups of people are BY INSTITUTION, convinced they can take more and more and more from hard working tax payers like me and her and...who already give a rediculous 41% of their salary to taxes....That's absurd ! So now you heard my side

I'm not disagreeing with the virtues of a social democracy. I'm just saying the redistribution of wealth will never be accepted here and should not be accepted for the reasons I have outlined above.

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juanalejo says on Jan 5, 2005, 19:35:

Sorry Desi Sorry I had written a really nicely inspired explanation to my theory and suddenly I was out the system. I promise a reply on that, but to make it short Uribe comes across very differently when seen on his Saturday trips around the country, he does not come across as a politician. He is not a good politician and he looks bad at it, but his mind seems not to stop working on how to make this country better for all and he sits down and listens and consults and finds solutions, all immediatelly. People that I know who know him, say he comes across personally also that way, his answer is always a solution to the problem. The TLC is not for me anti social, or neo liberal, I think Europe is a prime example of what free trade can do for countries, if not ask Spain, yet he is not concentrated only in that one, Mercosur is on the table, we are now official members, and same with Centro America and the Caribbean. Now he is lobbying for a TLC with Europe. Javier Solana was supposed to be here yesterday but cancelled due to the Asia crisis, but it is now high on the agenda. The problem is not the free trade, but how to manage the money made in that free trade, and obviously the conditions negotiated there. People here are really worried about the loss of identity when foreign companies are in, undoubtedly globalization does that, yet I do not think as an example that companies like Saab and Volvo have lost the Swedish soul, although they are now American. I beieve in socialism when it defends the social welfare of a nation, not when it defends the national pride. We created the borders, and now we have to erase them.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 5, 2005, 19:45:

By the way Juanalejo y Desi I may not agree with you guys,but I respect your opinions. The debate is interesting.....I appreciate you putting up with my poor typing and rambling one.

I have 2 problems, I am always afraid of "timeing out" and therefore all that typing goes for nothing. On my laptop, I don't type well to begin with. So when I try to beat the clock, I type faster and end up with a worse copy. Lastly, my "h" tab fell off....

So don't think I am incompetent/////!

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 6, 2005, 12:09:

juanalejo and gomezman5 too bad I had to quit last night, the difference in time zones makes it difficult for me to hang on to good debate like this one, since I do need to sleep too!
A couple of things: juanalejo, I understand your point about TLC and the social part of it being how the wealth created would be used to best benefit the society. My problem with the TLC is not that I'm against free trade; I approve as long as the partners are on somewhat equal footing economically, which, of course is not the case here. It works in Europe, because even if some countries are much richer than others here too, the differences are much smaller than between the US and Latin American economies. I'm sorry but as I see it you guys don't have a good bargaining position there.

Whenever you get a chance, I'd love to see some examples how Mr. Uribe's government is doing to improve the conditions for the poor people of Colombia. How much money is being allocated to health care, schools and such? My lovely city of Cali is languishing in abandonment and bad management (average of six murders per day; the neighborhoods are being inundated in garbage), while Bogotá is getting better, safer, cleaner and more sophisticated day by day.

Gomezman5, I know that you basically don't agree with me about the benefits of socialdemocracy; however, you have maintained a civil and candid debate on the subject. One thing: we know there are people who take advantage of our welfare system. We consider it a small price to pay for the assurance of knowing that no people go without a roof over their heads or food on their tables. Only the very richest people here moan about the high taxes we pay: the overall consensus is that we get a lot for the taxes we pay.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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juanalejo says on Jan 6, 2005, 12:54:

Desi I will get on with my homework and try to find some information about things. I know about Cali, I have a lot of family out there and go there very frequently, but just remember that although the problems there are not new, things do not seem to be getting better with the opposition in charge of the city and the departamento. I´m away this evening on a week´s working tour, but I will try to keep you posted as my research advances.

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ShazCas says on Jan 6, 2005, 13:02:

Which university? pcoldham, my husband studied at La Nacional, and I'd like to tell you first of all that it's not that dangerous for you as a foreigner, in case that was a concern for you. There is the occasional riot, but unless you start making petrol bombs yourself and throwing them at the police, you'd be fine. I watched a few demonstrations myself, from afar, for the experience, and I can say that you're not in any danger unless you get too close. The university's campus is huge and beautiful - it's a great university even just to visit. It's very relaxed and green, and there are even horses roaming around freely sometimes. The students are friendly and are not all communists!!! There are students from all walks of life, but the one thing they have in common is that they got into that university not because of money but because of their brains. The area around it is slightly safer than that of the Andes Uni at night, but both are safe during the day. La Javeriana has the safest surroundings, but neither of the three are particularly dangerous.

Los Andes is also an excellent university, but as the fees are steep the students tend to be from wealthy backrounds and so maybe you don't meet as big a variety of people. The campus is beautiful but not as interesting as the Nacional as it's like a big steep garden, really, whereas the Nacional has lots of places where you can lie in the grass under trees and watch live outdoor theatre, open-air cinema or live music, for free, with the other students.

La Javeriana? Also very good, but no campus and in a very built-up area. In my opinion, if you want a real experience that you'll remember for the rest of your life - it has to be the Nacional!! You may get frustrated with red tape, as the Nacional is a public university, but it's worth it in my opinion.

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ShazCas says on Jan 6, 2005, 13:20:

Areas to live If you were studying in the Nacional then you could live in an area like Teusaquillo and Palermo which is nearby, beautiful, safe, and cheap. As long as you didn't live too near the Calle 26. Anywhere between Calles 28 and 43 and Carreras 16 and 35 roughly. You could also try Chapinero, which is safe, as long as you don't go below the Carrera 13 or are too near the mountains! Near the Septima between Calles 48 and however high you want to go is fine. Carrera 45, which is near the Nacional is fine by day, but a little bit dodgy at night. Three streets away either way is fine though. Or you could try the Candelaria if you want the Colonial experience, but you would be at more risk of being robbed at night. Good luck!!

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 6, 2005, 14:57:

Thanks Desi---i enjoy your insight I really enjoy the dabate too.....Honestly, I will be the first to admit, I know very little about how the scio-economic institutions of Europe in general. I have always had a particular interest in Sweden---ever since the days I was an undergrad student (many years ago----the early 80's). You are my only source to available that can provide me with first hand information about how your country functions from an economic perspective. In that regard, i appreciate your insight and perspectives. Even if I don't agree, at least I will be better informed about other ways of thinking. I never said I have all the answers or that our US system is the best. But the paradigms here are different than europe too, hence that may explain how your systme in practice may not work as well here as it would in theory. My reasons for this are explained above.

The US though really is a different "animal" so to speak.
Our tremendous mix of cultures result in many different ways of thinking about a situation. Sweden is far more Homogenous the we are.
For example black people in this country, get irritated with me when I tell them the a black person if Colombian or a Black person from the Dominican Republic has more in common with me than them. They say, I am crazy they are "bothers" and you are white. But any Latino would agree with me. Here Black people, in an attempt to maintain their diversity and way of life, call themselves African Americans. No Dominicano calls themselves Africano Dominicano or Africano Colombiano. My point is, that because there is continuously a constant attempt to maintain a sense of idenity aprart and aside from your naitonal heritage, with that separation, you have a whole new subset of norms and values, that make homogeniality an impossibility.

Is a homogenious culture a desirable one?? I don't know. I am not saying you don't have some diversity in your country, colombia does too in the way they have many people of Arabic origin, specifically from Lebanon---like Shakira...but the numbers are insignificant to have much of an affect in determining what society's norms will be.

By the way, I appreciate all you have to offer.

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