Giving advice to backpackers

juanalejo says on Aug 14, 2005, 16:57:

Carter Ask me about it, I am so sick and tired of all the ill advice and opinions given on this site. People who live thousands of miles away think they know it all about this country. It is the same for me whenever this site comes up talking to foreign friends most disqualify it immediatelly, that is those who are fortunate enough to come in contact with somebody that puts them into perspective. Lets not even think of those who have never known any Colombians and never step into the country. For me the problem has to do with two groups of people, those who have to justify themselves for not living here or for their families not living here, so they have to make sure the reputation of the country makes it look like an immpossible place to live, and those who want to feel like heroes by showing off who brave they are by surviving in this jungle-war torn country. It is definitely very sad to see these people, but there is no other way out than sticking around to try and balance this very unbalanced site.

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atcama says on Aug 14, 2005, 17:25:

i love colombia nasif.
i have visited colombia two times and to share with you my experiences, i do not listen to any of the warnings from the TV or other so called self appointed voices of concern from the media, i have travelled the whole of south america and i have to come to consider and embrace COLOMBIA as my home and country, at the moment i am preparing to marry a beautiful woman from the city of Barranquilla and there is where i decide to spend the rest of my life with my colombian family, i feel very safe in colombia the people are one of the most hospitable that i have ever met in the whole wide world , and i feel very upset and get very personal when i hear someone is attacking and formenting negative thought and opinion about colombia ;; currently i am living in the U.S.A gracias,

nasif.

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babygirl says on Aug 14, 2005, 18:55:

Good post Carter! Juanalejo.. I think you're definately on to something with your post! Very very well said.

cheers - babygirl

cheers - babygirl

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vladimiro says on Aug 14, 2005, 19:08:

discussion forums are the problem Colombians and others that are interested need to create another website and use some other format than discussion forums in my opinion. Even Caracol and El Tiempo forums have similar problems. If interested in a example of an Englis language expat website that does not use discussion forums see www.iranian.com. In the "letters" section you can see a different type of discussion format. The debates are civil and informative even when between those with diamtrically opposing views. As a result many good writers and even former ambassadors contribute.

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gorgonabob says on Aug 14, 2005, 19:51:

well carter you got me to post a few colombia stories ive been here since 2000 off and on.. over three years in total here in colombia.... like yourself ive opened a hostel... ive been all over colombia.... im running out of new places to visit... night buses, day buses everything.. i have never had one problem here....ive written about some of my better trips....

cheers kelvin

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litost says on Aug 14, 2005, 23:15:

Great post Carter, right on!!! As a colombian who loves to travel around the country, I couldn't agree more. This site has simply just strayed away from useful and well founded travel information, and turned into..... well, you all know what.

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babygirl says on Aug 15, 2005, 05:01:

another thing... i find that a good majority of travel advice on here seems to come from people that are definately not budget travellers and appear to have a much higher disposable income than i do... therefore it's not a big deal for them to hop on a flight etc... if it truly meant that it was the only safe and sane option, of course i would opt for flying (just an example), but trust me though when i say that saving even $40-$50 sometimes has really made a big difference to me... i personally like the lonely planet forums to read about other people's travel experiences

cheers - babygirl

cheers - babygirl

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silviat says on Aug 15, 2005, 08:05:

Great post! I am really glad to finally hear something good and real about what traveling around colombia is like.

My husband (he was my fiance at the time, we got married on the 9th of august :))) ) and I traveled through Santander and Boyaca, by bus... it was perfect, people was beautiful with us, and actually in those "dangerous small towns" was were we felt more save and more happy.

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 15, 2005, 09:37:

Doesn't it depend on "Which" small towns you go to? I read an article by Robert Pelton (author of "world's most dangerous places") about how he and some others were the "guests" of some paras while backpacking around the Darien Gap. OK, you'll say "well, the Darien Gap is a dangerous place." Yes, it is. And it is also in Colombia. As is the Amazonas.

I also read an article by a reporter who visited a small town that made its living off the cocaine and heroin trade. While these may not represent the "average" small town in Colombia, if you're not paying attention, you could end up there and have a completely different view of the country.

I'm not trying to dis Colombia, nor say safe travel is impossible (as I'm back here in the U.S. after 4 trips down there in the past year). Just that it is not completely safe, nor is it completely dangerous. Also the conditions change from time to time. At the same time, you could say the same about Los Angeles, Chicago, New York City, or Miami as well.

One inherent advantage backpackers have, as a taxi driver told me, "los gringos con bolsas no tienen dinero." (meaning he would pass them by if they wanted a taxi, I think). So with that sort of reputation, you will be much less of a target (so long as you don't destroy the image by pulling out a roll of big bills to buy a soda).

The other thing is it is impossible to evaluate risk objectively, since one poster might feel that if the coffee is cold, the place is a potential breeding ground for horrible diseases, while another might enjoy the fact the bus broke down for several hours on their trip so they could talk to the locals that much longer. I might feel perfectly comfortable jumping from a plane while you might not want to skip a step climbing stairs. So if you say Colombia is "safe," what does that really mean? It might be safe for you because you know (consciously or unconsciously) what to look out for and be a complete deathtrap to me if I'm clueless.

Anyway, I understand the sentiment that Colombia's reputation is far worse than it might deserve, but at the same time, I would still keep my eyes and ears open while I'm there (as I would in any place for that matter).

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ColombiaBoard says on Aug 15, 2005, 09:42:

Tips for backpackers? I´m the first one against the hysteria of some people who recommend not to travel to Colombia but one has to be realistic.
You all sound very cheery very optimistic but the sad truth is that there are still regions in Colombia where YOU SHOULDN´T GO if you want to be alive. There are regions where most colombians who live in cities wonuldn´t go.
So, let´s be realistic, some areas are OK but some others aren´t. Who of you (previous posters) would travel by bus (even during daytime) to the following areas: Arauca, Putumayo, Caqueta, Magdalena Medio ? don´t be childish, these areas are off-limits for tourists for real reasons. Haven´t you read/heard/seen the news in the last weeks?

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juanalejo says on Aug 15, 2005, 10:24:

Crazy4Cali and Colombiaboard Did you even read Carter´s post? Did he ever say all of Colombia was safe? He was just stating that the over cautious warnings by many people ignorant of the real situations does even lead some travellers to venture into no-go areas precisely because they have been so warned of the dangers in all of Colombia, that when they travel and realize that many areas are quite safe, then they dismiss ALL warnings and venture into the real dangerous zones. So please if you do not know personally the area, do NOT warn people about it, as I have seen people wanting to venture into Putumayo or Cauca rural areas and that after they dismiss warnings about ALL of south Colombia being dangerous, but when they travel to Popayan and Pasto and Ipiales and see normal life they think it is ALL overblown. 1 problem with 1 tourist and Colombian international tourism comes to a halt, so do be careful when warning, that thousands of lifelihoods around this country that life from tourism depend on real and precise warnings, not general and ignorant ones.

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miamimike says on Aug 15, 2005, 10:48:

Warnings on Bus Travel Between some cities still Very Real and Valid. I posted a few times where one would ask "Is is safe to take the Bus between this city nad that city?" The trip itself may not be inherently dangerous but the fact you are DOING it on a bus(on windy mountain road trips) now makes it very risky! The manner in which many Drivers, unfortunately, drive their Rigs endanger their passengers FOOLSIHLY. Many times these Rigs do not have ungraded Brakes, headlights and Running lights aren't functioning. 100s of Passengers yearly get killed and injured in Colombia and other South American countries also I will add (but here are talking about Colombia) So if a warning like this is considered overboard, so be it! We all have a risk threshold and mine tells me due to what I saw personally on these buses, use another mode of travel.Or hitchike a car ride. The yearly statistics(I saw them posted here once, was unable to find them now) are enough warning for me. What is that old
saying, Liars figure but Figures(stats) don't lie!! Each to their own! How does someone square with oneself Morally if you know something is dangerous and you don't warn another person to a pending imminent danger; what does that say about you as a Person?

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 15, 2005, 10:58:

Waitaminute... I'm, in complete agreement that "Real and Precise" warnings are indeed the most valuable and almost impossible to obtain from past travelers since by the time the post their exeperiences to their blog, bulletin board, or whatever, the information is out-of-date. At which point it becomes little more than anecdotal.

But it's hard to tell how much data from anectodal information like that will apply to you? Are you more or less "travel savvy" than the poster? Are you more or less of an "a$$hole" than the poster? In Colombia, are you more or less "Colombian-looking" than the poster? Is your travel time more or less the same as the posters? Are you more or less prepared for unforseen contingencies than the poster? Are you more or less able to get out of a tight squeeze than the poster?

Saying things like "I have seen people wanting to venture into Putumayo or Cauca rural areas and that after they dismiss warnings about ALL of south Colombia being dangerous, but when they travel to Popayan and Pasto and Ipiales and see normal life they think it is ALL overblown." just says it was safe FOR THEM at THAT TIME. Nothing more, nothing less. If some idiot wants to then, incorrectly, over-generalize, well Darwin will catch up to them sooner or later, that ain't my fault. I think some personal responsibility is needed in that case.

I can stand on train tracks all day and be perfectly safe...unless those silly lights are flashing. Does that make standing on train tracks safe or dangerous? Does that make me stupid or smart?

The point is I could stand on the tracks for an hour then, based on that experience, tell everyone how safe they are. If I read that anecdote and then I go and stand on them when the train comes and I get hit, does that make them more or less dangerous? (no). Does that make me stupid? (yes).

The best thing to do is ask around while you are in-country. Some countries aren't safe to even enter, fortunately, Colombia isn't one of those (in spite of how sternly the State department's warning is worded). In my train-track example, if I asked a local, are THESE tracks safe? They might tell me yes, except at 5:23 when the train comes through (or when you see those flashing lights). But it would also be foolish to then generalize ALL train tracks are safe except at 5:23. I could look this up on the internet, maybe, but in Central and South America, this sort if information is often inaccurate and/or outdated.

So anyone, can go to Colombia and then ask around (hotel staff, tour agencies, etc.) and get the most up-to-date and local information. Of course that is good advice for travelers to almost any destination and something backpackers do instictively, from what I've seen.

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carter says on Aug 15, 2005, 13:16:

follow up crazy4cali - please never quote or look for facts in Robert Peltons "most dangerous places" Its a load of shit.

Miamimike although the roads are more dangerous compared to what we are use to in western civilization they are probably equal to those other countries extremely popular for Backpackers. ie India, Nepal, Thailand, Laos, Peru, Bolivia etc.

Still I tell people that they are more likely to get killed in a traffic accident or hit crossing the road in Bogota than they are getting killed or kidnapped by Guerilla. i agree with you its probably the main safety concern I have for foriegners here in colombia, that and swimming in some of the beaches. Main beach Tyrona DANGEROUS.

By telling people the roads are to dangerous to travel here we are just changing there trip plan and sending them to the next backpacking destination which has the same dangerous roads. Traffic accidents are a danger that most backpackers except as part of there travels.

Many backpackers who get to Colombia have alredy travelled in Sth/central America, Africa or Asia and therefore understand the risks of transport in these countries. Therefore i don't find the need to go on about it to much.

My main gripe is with those saying that if you are a gringo and you catch a bus you will get kidnapped.

Juanalego thanks for following up on my argument for me. The main thing I want to achieve here is that through us travellers (whether colombian or foriegn) we can start giving people who come to this site better advice on what to expect in Colombia and what are the real dangers they need to be wary of. We can advise people so they can enjoy there time as best as possible whether they are on tight budgets, wanting to hike, visit the cities and live it up, sit on a beach or met people in a small town. Places change and one can be lucky or unlucky but through our joint experiences and advice we can increase the chances of those travellers having a safe and enjoyable holiday.

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 15, 2005, 13:46:

that reminds me... ...of another discussion I've had many times and that is about the safety of flying. As a private pilot (commercial, instrument, multi-engine, and flight instructor rated) I'm particularly sensitive to it as Colombians might be to their country's reputation, however, after spending countless hours of persuasive discussion, I've given up the fight. You can't win an emotional argument with facts and reason.

Private aircraft are safe and dangerous all at the same time, just like Colombia is. Stay in the parameters and it is 100% safe. For airplanes, fly in well maintained aircraft, with qualified and current pilots, under clear, calm weather during the day for example. For Colombia, pay attention to your surroundings, stay out of places known for violence and crime, keep up with the local news, etc.

When you venture out of those parameters, the risk increases. Does that mean it becomes "dangerous?" Not necessarily. But it does mean it become "riskier." At what point "risky" becomes "dangerous" depends on a person's sense of risk. The key to safety in flying (as it is to travelling) is to know the risk areas, know how to manage them, and know when the risk is unmanageable or unacceptable.

When people ask "Is X safe?" there is no right answer as everything involves some element of risk. The right answer is range of probabilities with a laundry list of qualifications. This is true for flying as it is for traveling (or living for that matter).

People who think Colombia is dangerous will think it is dangerous no matter how much proof, statistics, anectodal evidence, etc. you present them. It is emotional, feeling-based decision. At the same time, people who think it is safe will think that in spite of all the proof, statistics, anectodal evidence, etc. you present them. It is emotional, feeling-based decision. For that reason, there's no point in discussing it. You can't win an emotional argument with facts and reason. This HAS to be an emotional discussion since the original poster start the thread by saying he was "pissed off."

I think that since this is a site visited by more than just backpackers, saying that Colombia is "safe" and then assuming the reader has all the backpackers' inherent cautions and sensibilities, is misleading to all those reading WITHOUT that sense of awareness.

To say that citing some of the dangers of travel in Colombia is scaring people away is ridiculous. The people "scared away" had no real intention of coming in the first place and were just looking for an excuse to justify the decision to themselves, their boy/girlfriend, mother or whatever. NOT citing some of the dangers would do more of a disservice, in my opinion, by provoking a false sense of security and misleading those actually trying to manage the risk.

As a pilot, if a plane crashes, I want to know ALL the details. So I can make sure I don't repeat them. I don't want to know that: Plane crashed. Flying unsafe.

As a traveler, I want to know who was kidnapped, why, where, how so I can evaluate the risk of that happening to me. I want to know what neighborhoods are dangerous, why, when, is there any reason to be there in the first place, etc. Not just that "Colombia is safe/unsafe" becase that isn't precise enough for me.

If someone wants to abdicate that decision-making process to someone else (like a tour company) fine. They probably won't be reading this site or basing any decisions on that infomation if they did. If they come looking for answers, they will probably be smart enough to sort the wheat from the chaff or looking for an excuse to justify what they already decided, in which case they'll see what they want and ignore the rest.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 15, 2005, 13:49:

Yes, but I agree with you, carter, in most cases.

However, there are also a lot of frankly stupid questions that pop up here over and over like "How do I drive from Colombia to Panama?" and "How do I travel overland from Leticia to Bogota?" People who can't even look at a map and see that there are NO roads strike me as terribly naive and shouldn't be travelling around Colombia witlessly.

Another factor, which you touched upon, is that danger levels are vastly different for different people on this board. I've travelled all over the world in backpacker style but due to other circumstances in my life right now would never dream of doing that in Colombia, despite how attractive it might be. So people asking these questions need to be a little more clear on their circumstances, too. If someone said they're a 19 year old backpacker wanting to go from Bogota to Santa Marta by bus I'd say have a great time. If the same question came from a 45 year old multinational exec, it'd be a ridiculous thing to risk.

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 15, 2005, 13:56:

By the way... Carter, are you in some way associated with the hospitality industry? From the context of some of your posts it sounds like you are, in which case, while a "local," you might have more inclination (if not a financial incentive) to downplay the risk factors.

I'm not saying that makes your information better or worse, nor am I saying your points are more or less valid, just that knowing "where you're coming from" would help others to evaluate your information.

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caslug says on Aug 15, 2005, 15:04:

Alot is your risk profile and as Mr. H... said about a 19 yr kid or a 45 yr exec traveling by bus..this trip i actually took 6 bus trip from short 30 mins alway to 5 hrs. I always felt safe, however i always dress down and basically look like a backpacker seeing the country. Even walking around different places i ALWAY ask local advice if it is safe in day or night.

For the most part MOST if not all is safe during the day, as long as you dont do anything stupid like flash wad of money, take out your camera in middle of the street, etc., During the night it is gets more iffy, you really gotta talk with locals. Also, it depends on if you are alone or with people.

I was told by amigas LIVING in cali for all their lives that even walking couple of blocks next to Avienda sexta is NOT recommended for a women alone, but its OK for guys. So it all about what risk profile you fit are you a single women or with 3 guys? One thing that struck me as odd this trip to cali(as oppose to my trip last year). The SAME hotel i stayed at LOCK their door during the DAY, last year it was only at night.

BUT i think i rather have somebody that is scared of going to COL NOT GO, rather than someone that went and got a bad exp then tell the whole world that COL is dangerous. At least if the person never went, he cant bad mouth COL.

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adrimm says on Aug 15, 2005, 18:00:

Great thread Everyone has framed their positions so well that I agree with all of you and am trying to determine what my overall position on the topic is.

Thoughts

1) Traffic accident risks are higher than home, but yes Carter, risks are comparable to other backpacker places.

2) This forum is largely peopled by people who do not travel backpacker-style and know of Colombia from heritage, spouses and business travel. Visits for these reasons are generally very coordinated amongst family and associates. I do not believe we can expect a budget-backpacker to get relevant advice from most here.
For those of us with heritage, "backpacker" travel was never a mode commonly used in Colombia or experienced by Colombians of past generations. People of my mother's generation seem to think it is a ghastly way to travel and instantly say "no, no, no".

3) I think that for a seasoned backpacker who speaks Spanish, and has travelled elsewhere in Latin America, Colombia can be definately be safely visited. BUT I do not think Colombia is an appropriate developing nation destination for a backpacker to cut his or her teeth on at all.

4) As safety issues, in my definition, a seasoned backpacker keeps very good tabs on conditions and considerations through conversation with locals. Locals are usually quick to mention things relevant to the road. That is the one thing, since relatively few people in Colombia speak english, then the sorts of backpackers that go there (hopefully) have a decent grasp of Spanish and use it plenty.

5) A seasoned backpacker will be aware of circumstances that can raise or lessen dangers. Ie. being female/male. I'm a girl and I'm 4'9. I would probably never travel large distances in Latin America by myself, or go out in some areas by myself at night; I would informally hook up with other backpackers going the same way.

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carter says on Aug 17, 2005, 10:36:

C4cali C4Cali first of all. Yes Im in the tourist industry. Im an Australian living here and I have a guesthouse in San Gil. But I can assure you that my motives for writing this post are not finacial. If I wanted to make money I sure as hell wouldn`t be running a guesthouse in a small town in Colombia.

Why I wrote the post and in some ways why I own a guesthouse is because I want to open up Colombia more to tourism. People on this site get so upset about foriegners views on Colombia and how they stereotype. Surely the best way to solve this is to encourage as many foriegners to travel here as possible.

Instead the large percentage of foriegners coming here visit Medellin and Cartagena and leave saying "Yep Colombia only has drugs and beautiful girls to offer you can't go to the other parts" and Im sorry but thats just bullshit, we all know Colombia has a lot more to offer so why not encourage it.

I didn't start my geusthouse to make lots of money its partly to encourage people to visit San Gil the place I have chosen to live, partly because i have bedrooms that I don't know what to do with and because the money that I make covers my rent. The other reason though is I enjoy having foriegners come stay and showing them the real colombia, watching them talk to my friends and neighbours, playing a game of tejo with the locals and visiting some beautiful locations like Barichara and cascadas de Juan Curi.

I want people to leave here and say "Yep Colombia has beautiful women, but it also has some really nice small towns and the people were really friendly and we walked to these amazing waterfalls and we ate lots of interesting local foods, did some nice day walks, learnt a game called tejo, had some great parties etc etc."

and when there friends ask "what about the drugs?"

they´ll say

"Didn`t really see much drugs I was to busy having a good time with the locals. The only drugs I saw were by the gringos sitting around in there hotel rooms in the cities looking bored shitless."

and another thing C4cali we've had 3 major plane crashes in a month how safe are those things?

Finally Im not saying we shouldn't warn people, Im saying we should just give them the correct warnings and people will be able to travel safer.

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carter says on Aug 17, 2005, 10:52:

in reply to others When someone on this site does post asking for travel info I usually PM them asking what they are looking for in the trip, if they have had experience, what there budget is etc.

from that I ussually give them a rough idea of wht to expect and where they should travel. I understand that all advice needs to be somewhat personalised.

Because I have never travelled as a middle aged business man I tell these people that I can't give them the best advice because I travel on a budget and enjoy different things. but I can still tell them what the cities are like etc and maybe suggest someone else to ask.

If someone emails me about riding a bike across colombia I don't answer there questions I direct them to someone who has ridden across Colombia.

I want to make it clear to everyone that I don't believe that we should be telling people Colombia is SAFE. We should be giving them educated advice on what to expect so they can make a more educated decision on whether or not Colombia is safe for them.

As i tell most people if you are the kind of person that if robbed at knife point you will be distraught and the event would ruin your holiday do not come to Colombia. In fact do not go to Sth America. There is a decent chance this could happen to you. If a knife point robbery is something you can except as part of seeing this great country and you can put it behind you, then come. To many people this risk is worth while to others it is not.

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carter says on Aug 17, 2005, 11:10:

Tinto You´ve got a good point

and this mobile warfare is what killed the last backpacker here 5 years ago.

he was on a bus near Choco at night and got stopped at an Army checkpoint when the FARC decided to attack. He got caught in the cross fire. (this is the story I have been told)

we do have to make foriegners aware of this issues that a shoot out could occur in some places at anytime. You would be extremely unlucky to get caught up in one of these incidents, especially around Villa de Leyva. I obviously can't keep up with all these incidents but if someone emails me about a certain place I can try to tell them whats been happening in the area. Id still advise people to travel to Villa de Leyva though as I have heard of few other problems in the area and I feel the likely hood of getting caught in one of these incidents is quite low.

Usually I just tell people the facts, what has occured to backpackers in the last few years and then I leave them to make decisions. Many ask me what I think of other incidences occurring and I tell them my honest opinion but then warn them tht Im no expert and things can change very quickly in this country

In the end its there decision all we can do is give them the facts. All Im asking is to cut down on the bullshit.

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carter says on Aug 17, 2005, 11:32:

MR H You have to remember that alot of people are on a one year trip travelling the whole continent. They all haven't had time to put much study into each country until they reach the border. At that stage they look at a map and realise there aren't any roads but they remember some traveller mis informing them that its possible so they ask the question. I don't know why people get so angry when someone asks a question that we consider silly because we know Colombia.

He´s not the idiot for asking, the idiot is the one that doesn't ask.

I don't know every travel route in the world but in many cases I have found where there is no road there is sometimes another way than plane travel (for many backpackers very evil form of travel expensive, lacks adventure puts you next to vacationers, very boring) ie boat.

These people are just looking for options. Last week someone posted that they had heard that Panama and Colombia wasn't possible overland and asked for other options. Instead he got some wanker giving him grief for not knowing that wasn't possible. He had found out it wasn't possible and was asking fo options.
He was getting this grief from a self called Colombian expert who I once had to explain Tejo to.

How many weeks, months, years in advance should we know that the Darien Gap can not be crossed by land, should we born with that knowledge?

We live near the Darien Gap so we know but for a European not to know that its without roads I think is understandable. For a person from the states not to know where Australia is on map and than congratulate me on how well my English is, like a girl did last month I think is pathetic but not knowing about the Gap is okay.

People have old maps and many rumours travel around the backpacker circuit and why not ask the latest, the Gap has been crossed on foot, it is possible. Just not recommended.

Also the lonely planet lists this website as a source of information for travelling Colombia. by asking a question on this site it is checking a source like looking on a map or in a guide book. These people are actually doing the right thing as far as Im concerned but again after copping crap for doing it they won't be asking for advice next time and will probably go somewhere dangerous because they believe there is no point asking advice when the last time they asked people were just rude.

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vladimiro says on Aug 17, 2005, 11:34:

There is a WAR in Colombia. I think the Colombian Government should either guarantee the safety of backpackers or restrict thier movement. The idea of letting foriegn turists decide for themselves where they can travel in a country where there is a WAR seems irresponsible to me.

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adrimm says on Aug 17, 2005, 11:43:

! Since car makers can't guarantee that drivers won't have accidents in cars, should governments ban the sale of cars in an effort to save drivers from making poor driving choices and the accidents that subsequently happen?.

Driver = Visitor
Car= Colombia
Sale = travel

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carter says on Aug 17, 2005, 11:44:

Vladimiro do you live here?

how does the "WAR" currently affect tourism in this country?

does the "WAR" make the whole country unsafe?

What affect has the WAR had on the hundreds of tourists here daily over the past few years?

have you ever travelled here as a foriegn tourist?

Why do you think that this WAR makes tourism unsafe?

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vladimiro says on Aug 17, 2005, 14:20:

I think its in both the Gover Because there is a real WAR and not just in far away Putomayo I think its in both the Government's and the backpacker's interest to regulate travel in the country-side for foriegners. As someone above mentioned it causes problems for Colombia when something happens to one of these backbackers.

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adrimm says on Aug 17, 2005, 14:41:

Vlad You edited the "ban backpackers" out of your previous post.

So fine, how do "restrict" foreigners from a place and still let locals go? What if a foreigner is accompanied by a local, what then? hmm what if the local is from the next department over, are they still local. Bans and restrictions are too grey, lines are difficult to draw.

It's like a crosswalk. Even if the signal is flashing do not walk, you know that some people will jaywalk. If someone really wants to go somewhere then they will (be it stupid or not). The most that can be done is provide info and recomendations, and expect people to act responsibly when selecting their route, mode of travel, etc.

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webmanco says on Aug 17, 2005, 17:01:

Advising or scaring?? I drove from Bogotá to Ibague, then Ibague-Medellín, then Medellín Bogotá, would my life would be in dager if I rode with a foreigner? I doubt it.

I can´t stress enough the beuty of traveling by road in Colombia. Beautiful views, stoping to eat or buy fruits, good roads, and safe.

No to mention the latest plane accidents.
Danger is everywhere, play safe and be positive, travelers need to get advice from local people but even that it is not enough, the traveler needs to tell who is exagerating and who is not, because even some locals are scare without traveling, just because of the news. Know the country and its people.

I couldn´t make the first meet-up in Medellín because I had to stay overnight in Ibague and two hours away from Medellín the Army would advise me to stay the night and resume the driving early in the morning.


Will you get your bike stolen in Colombia??


I will add a few pics on this post.



Mangostino otras frutas



Sabaneta



Chiva Clasica

COLOMBIA

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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RUV says on Aug 18, 2005, 14:34:

Carter Can you forward information on your place? Any web sites on your place or San Gil? How is the rafting in December? Is it crowded?

Thanks,

RUV

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CaryGrant says on Aug 20, 2005, 11:41:

There's a war in the US, too, vlad. NYC 9/11, London just recently...such nice, safe cities in "developed" nations.... And I'm only counting actions by enemy forces, not people killed by "security forces," like the Brazilian in London a few weeks ago.

At least in Colombia, you can find out what areas are relatively safe.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 20, 2005, 15:23:

London, NYC Actually, the violence of 9/11 was vastly out of proportion to the number of people killed. I think around 2,000 people died in that attack, which is gruesome and horrifying, but that many people or more die every year in Colombia from the conflict.

I'll take the odds of being in a city like London where a couple hundred people out of 10 million get killed. It's scary, but the statistics are on your side.

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ws244 says on Aug 20, 2005, 15:44:

travel One is either in the right place at the wrong time in life or the wrong time in the right place in life. Kind of like hiking in a U.S. national park meeting a grizzly without a firearm as the law says it is illegal to carry one, yet the lawman coming to rescue you or your remains carries one.

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CaryGrant says on Aug 20, 2005, 16:35:

Mr. Hollywood My point was that, in Colombia, there are areas that you can feel reasonably safe within, not to calculate the odds for an entire country or city. In fact, you cannot calculate odds when it comes to terrorist attacks. "Only" a few hundred or thousand people were killed in London and New York - this time. But you have no idea what weapon will be used next time, or when, or where. It could wipe out an entire city - or fail completely.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 20, 2005, 19:59:

I understand you, CaryGrant, but I respectfully disagree.

The FARC in particular has a lot of capability that we haven't witnessed in an urban setting since El Nogal was blown up. I've seen a number of news stories about the police or military seizing large shipments of explosives coming into Bogota. And I'm not so naive to believe that the Colombian military is so precise and well trained that they've got it all. I would never be surprised if another large bomb went off in Bogota or Medellin.

Dirty bombs and stuff like that are scary but you're comparing hypotheticals to a proven threat. I live in Bogota and take my chances like everyone else, but if I were completely focused on the odds of being a victim of terrorism I'd be much safer in a major US or European city than in Bogota.

The odds in both places are still surprisingly low, a lot less than being squashed crossing the street, but its a scary reality.

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Hunter says on Aug 21, 2005, 03:29:

Any area in any City in Colombia could be hit by a bomb.

But I believe that it is far safer in Colombia Cities bomb wise than major Western Cities.

In either option there are places within the City that more likely to be targeted.

Only the future will prove which is correct.

As to FARC having a lot of capabilties to launch attacks in major urban areas, they dobn't have it, if they did they would have used it more often by now, they can let off small bombs and the odd larger one, but thats about it, maybe it will change in the future, but I doubt it.

Hunter

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 22, 2005, 11:19:

What is a risk? This whole discussion is impossible to resolve out of context.

First of all, the whole "is it safe?" question is relative. For Carter, being held up at knifepoint is all part of the experience, for me, I'd prefer to avoid that part of the experience. I can't say for sure, as, so far, that hasn't happened to me. But I'm sure I'd rather avoid it than add that to my list of war stories. (Gunpoint was close enough, thank you).

When someone asks me about Colombia (here, or in person), I tell them:

a) it's a poor, 3rd world country with all that goes with that: There are people who are desperately poor, (some more desperate than others), there is far less in the way of police, security, and emergency services then you might be accustomed to here in the U.S. and very little english is spoken. On the plus side, it's a gorgeous country with a very interesting and dynamic history and filled with wonderful people.

b) I tell them that much of the stereotypes about drugs, violence, etc. are blown way out of proportion and you could find similar, if not worse examples here in the U.S. if you really wanted to. Just watch an episode of "cops" or any of the "reality" video programs. If you want trouble, you can go to Colombia and find it, but if that's what you're looking for, save your money and just go to your local crack-house.

c) finally, if you don't feel comfortable about going there, I have two words for you: "Don't Go!" There are plenty of other places to go in the world. I'm not going to try and convince anyone it's safe or dangerous.

I, personally, think the risk is worth it. And, yes, there IS some risk, whether it's from landing in a 3rd world airport, riding in a colombian taxi with bald tires with a driver who is half asleep, or whatever, you're clearly "not in Kansas anymore," as Dorothy would say. That said, I personally feel safer in the streets of Cali than I do in some streets here in Seattle. (which is why I go to Cali and DON'T go to those parts of Seattle).

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carter says on Aug 22, 2005, 13:51:

C4C, Hunter and MrH More or less I agree
good advice

I have never been robbed here at knife point and would never want it to happen so I can brag about it. I have been mugged in Nepal and yes now 5 years on its a travel story but that night I sure as hell wasn`t laughing.

Guys arguing about more chance of getting blown up in NY, London or Bogota, question?

where am I safer Bogota, London, NY or San Gil. The first three have all had terrorist attacks. San Gil has had one murder in 4 years a young girl raped and killed by a pervert no links to terrorism. Other than that 4 were killed in a car accident.

Is it safe to say based on that and the fact nothing has happened in the surrounding towns either that San Gil is safer than Bogota, London and NY??????

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cali373 says on Aug 24, 2005, 09:26:

One thing about bus travel is to NEVER accept food that is being offered. Only buy food when the bus stop at designated stops.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 24, 2005, 09:51:

? Offered by whom?

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