Getting frustrated with my spanish

robi666 (Trustee board) says on Jul 4, 2007, 07:24:

Brian, the best to learn is flirting with girls down in Medellin... but i guess it is too late for that! ;-)
Seriously, my advice is not to worry, concentrate on grammar (which is the hardest for an english speaking) making written exercise and you'll get fluent easy living here. Few months here will work as magic. I have some gringo friends here, and, for what I see, they know words but their biggest problem is with genre of words and adjective and tense of verbs.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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latinlife says on Jul 4, 2007, 07:28:

Couple of idea's.......a good tip for me was to try to think in spanish.
And the obvious , go and live in a country which speak's good spanish , for this I choose Colombia.I always thought I would have learnt in Nicaragua but now I know the spanish there is generally crap.
It's extremely difficult to reach a very good level of a new language without living in the country, I see this in Colombia where I have 4 tutors that all think they speak good English but realy only the tutor that lived in europe for a few years would survive the acid test.
The acid test is to be able to stay engaged in a bar with some friends slightly drunk ,with music when they start to talk very fast ,all at the same time and with expressions.
At the moment I'm failing this test badly...probably because I seem to get drunk before them.....

Was living the lie now living my life !!!!....

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jaramillo says on Jul 4, 2007, 07:32:

Hey Brians, hang in there. My dad used to say that Spanish was like an avocado and English like a coconut. On the surface the avocado is very soft, but as you get deeper into it you hit a rock! I think there is something to that. Im a native Spanish speaker and I learned my English relatively late in life. I have to accept there are certain things I’ll never master. English goes to my brain by what I call “an alternative route”. It will never be the same as Spanish, and I say that as I’m writing a textbook in English. So don’t despair. Enjoy your successes.

For me watching subtitled movies, the news, or even the Soaps (neutral accents, clear diction, plenty of context) were very useful. Music was also fun. If you find a song in Spanish you like, get the lyrics. Learn (translate) the lyrics, and sing along trying to imitate the sound.

Best of luck.

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Brians says on Jul 4, 2007, 07:37:

Hey Robi I can still flirt I am not dead;) I can understand Spanish decent when spoken but collecting my thoughts to speak is difficult. Just like you said I feel like unless I live around it everyday it won't every get to the point where I don't have to constantly translate in my head. As far as tenses and gender that seems OK but man these dame pronouns are tough. I can understand but can't integrate into my speech as I have to think out direct indirect etc.. I really need expand my vocabulary and have been trying to read a lot more but it seems that unless I use the words regularly I forgat them or have to think about the word to get it. BTW need to catch up with you for a drink next month. I will be down for 10 days in beginning o August please email me as I wanted to get the name of your accountant. Have our apartment now and going to look at a couple others and need a contact to help with my taxes in Colombia. We would like to show you our new place as well in Molinas de San Lucas. No furniture or anything but would like have you over for some drinks. Mom situation ended this week. She passed two days ago and now can focus on Colombia.A long year here in USA for Melissa and me with her illness.

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Philly says on Jul 4, 2007, 07:46:

Hey,
You are scaring me. Turning 41 next month, studying in Phila. THAT SOUNDS LIKE ME, ITS EXACTLY ME. I been in Colombia for a year and a half now. Trust me, I see the progress. I do not need to take a note to the grocery store anymore. I can make myself understood. Everyone tells me to be patient. BE PATIENT!!!!!!!!!!!

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Saltador says on Jul 4, 2007, 07:51:

Brians,
Take comfort in the fact that many others such as myself feel your pain. I have invested a lot of time and effort into learning spanish, and my progress is incremental at best. (I'm also doing one night a week with Iris, great teacher.) About the time I think my spanish is getting better, I go to colombia and get slammed back to reality.
I'm 47 and like you at our age it just doesn't sink in like it does for a person much younger. I'm determined to keep trying, if I make only babysteps, then that's better than nothing.
Like latinlife said, I try to think in spanish many times during the day. For example, If I conversate with someone, I'll say to myself, "How would I have said that in espanol?".
Just keep working at it, you're probably better than you think and miles ahead of others on the same path.

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tomtom33 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 4, 2007, 08:03:

Brians says on Jul 4, 2007, 08:12:

Hi saltador,
I forgot gave you Iris's name. She is great. I do two classes with her and two with a teacher in Bogota via Skyoe and then one in a school here in Philly. However it is rare I don't have to cancel at least one of those classes for lack of time. Anyway it is great to hear everyone with the same problems. I am a dedicated person so I will keep at it but man this shit is tough and I really wanted to see what others were doing to overcome this stuff. My plumber working in my house is from Bogota and when we talk I get most of it but it is a lot easier talking with my teachers. They work within the vocababulary I know. It is like a train wreck when people start speaking with words I don't use. I am like a deer caught in the headlights. My wife is no help as she only speaks English with me. When we try to converse in Spanish she has little patience with me and when I get stuck she just tells me to speak english.

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tomtom33 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 4, 2007, 08:15:

Miguel says on Jul 4, 2007, 08:28:

Brians, like already stated, be patient. You have just "hit a wall" right now. Your approach, to this point, seems to have been the right one...putting in the effort. Try to identify the area where you are struggling most, and work on it. Apparently right now you need to go to pronoun camp. Resign yourself that you need to work on your Spanish everyday. When you are speaking Spanish and get questioned, just respond naturally the best you can and try not to do too much translating in your head. Just my opinion.

Sorry to hear about your mother.

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goin_south says on Jul 4, 2007, 08:37:

hey Brians, if miguel is right about needing work in the 'Pronoun Camp', you might try a book I have also acquired (but not yet spent enough time in): Barron's foreign language guide/SPANISH PRONOUNS AND PREPOSITIONS.

Every now and then when I go to the spanish section of the B & N store, I find the Barron's Guides something I can relate to more than so many other books they have to offer there about learning spanish.

Why Not Colombia?..........Stay Tuned, for more.... utterly worthless, self-indulgent gobbets of nonsense.

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bueno_pues says on Jul 4, 2007, 08:39:

No puedes escuchar a la emisora en espanol y mirar las programas del televisor en espanol? La mejor cosa es vivir con una mujer que no habla ingles.

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Miguel says on Jul 4, 2007, 08:52:

bueno_pues: te faltas tu "¿".

¡Viva Kinky Friedman!

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rocinante says on Jul 4, 2007, 09:05:

Brians. The best way to achieve second language acquisition by an adult learner is a two step process.

The Communicative Strategy ("It's how you learned your first language" - tag line of courses like Rosetta Stone) is great if you are younger than 10 or as an adult if you have years of imersion with the target language (I cite Dr Stephen Krashen Study with the Mexican learning Hebrew in California - http://www.sdkrashen.com/articles/what_does_it_take/all.html)

Than there is the old style Grammar Spanish I,II,III. Verb drills and all that stuff.

Arguments exist for both methods - for adults.

It is my experience and the experience of my old Spanish teacher that a quantitiative approach mixing the both with a heavy emphasis on the grammar first and then gravitating towards the Communicitave is the way to go.

How to approach this?

You need to learn the grammar from someone who can speak both English and Spanish with fluency, someone who also can teach Englsih I,II,III AND Spanish I,II,III.

Learn Spanish I,II,III in a crash course from this person and understand all the rules and parts of speech (Nouns, Verbs, Objects, etc...) - once you are exposed to this and understand why and when to use the subjunctive, noun adjective agreement and such when you DO hear and immerse yourself in one of these Rosetta Stone courses (or even spending time in the target country) you will understand why one says "Lo haces" and "Quiero que lo hagas" or you will much easier notice the subtle difference in your ear when a native speaker says habla or hable. Sounds close but very different.

If you have the solid foundation of the grammar and are kept from making mistakes early on that will get ingrained in your head, the "picking it up" from this point on is exponenetially more effective - to be a geek I will say that the amount of i 1 you will be exposed will be enormous as opposed to just dealing with a Rosetta Stone course or a "communicative strategy" class.

For the record I think initially taking Communicative Strategy classes for an adult who really wants to acheive fluency can be counter productive - sort of like buying a phrase book for travelers - you have no idea why you are saying what you are saying but the phrase book says so, so you memorize it and repeat it without knowing why. If one's native language and the target language are structurally almost the same (one to one) than communicative is a piece of cake (Portuguese and Spanish come to mind) as you are just switching words.

What I mean in the previous paragraph is that children are sponges and just hearing languages without gramatical "Whys" and "Hows" is enough for children to pick up the language. I spoke English and never knew what an indirect object pronoun was - I didn't need to. we all didn't need to.

Adults are more analytical and set in their ways and the courses and classes that are out there today really don't offer the foundation necessary to EVER get to the next level without spending years and years totally immersed. And even then you will not lose your accent nor master fluency. Again unless you have years to slowly absorb fully immersed.

If you have the time, money and motivation I know in instructor who has moved to Puerto Rico who can teach you everything you need to know in 4 months, 3 hours a day. After that you will be ready to sky rocket.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on Jul 4, 2007, 09:07:

I can't type a ( plus) sign?

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on Jul 4, 2007, 09:10:

i plus 1 = means intake plus a little more than what you already know.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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Miguel says on Jul 4, 2007, 09:14:

Good points rocinante.

It is also important to know the difference between being "fluent" and "bilingual".

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slguy says on Jul 4, 2007, 09:33:

I have a LONG way to go before fluency- but I have learned one great motivator....

I was married to a puertoriquena for 12 years- but when we met, her english was rudimentary, so we fell in the habit of speaking english. So- I never learned any spanish to speak of from her.

After I divorced three years ago, I discovered that without espanol, MUY dificil finding another latina. I wish I had a nickel for every hour I spent chatting with latinas online. I've learned a lot this way - but, I'm really visiual. so it helps me enormously to see the words, not just hear them.

Nothing motivates me more than a beautiful woman who speaks only espanol! ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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pedro (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 4, 2007, 10:02:

Robert Jorge says on Jul 4, 2007, 10:12:

I get frustrated also like the original poster is. It almost seems like the more vocabulary I obtain, the more overwhelmed I start feeling ... like it forces me to realize how much I do NOT know. But, when I think about where I was at with Spanish a year ago, then I feel like I am not doing too bad. About this time last year, I would have to take a note for myself to the pollo restaurant up the road from us. It said "para llavar", because at that time, I just couldn't remember those words.

I did the same thing that GIB described. I would occasionally get somebody that would be frustrated at my Spanish ability, and they would rattle off in rapid fire Spanish just to be shitty with me, kind of as a put-down or making fun of me. I would then turn the volume up 1 notch, and rattle off in the fastest English that I could back at them. It was pretty funny to see the looks on their faces. Usually, we would all then have a laugh and start over fresh. Actually, this happened once or twice with my better half also.

He who farts in church, sits in his own pew.

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Aaron21 says on Jul 4, 2007, 10:14:

Since you have a base and as one poster stated, "you have just 'hit a wall' ", then, I would suggest two things (I have graduated an intense language school, and have many friends who have done the same - intense means one-on-one teaching for five hours a day, five days a week for 3-6 months). I second the suggestion you watch sub-titled programs, but you also have to pay very close attention to how the actors structure their sentences - also it is better to watch Spanish movies with the subtitles, then later without them when you feel comfortable. I also suggest you read A LOT of Spanish - if you do not have the time for books, then short articles. Keep your dictionary close and make sure you understand every sentence. Also pay very close attention to the structure of the sentences, and read out loud (it sounds goofy, but if you can do it then listen to yourself and make sure you say the words correctly - ask your wife to help you with pronunciation). The most important thing though is to pay very close attention to the structure of written and spoken sentences and emulate that. You will get over the wall.

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houstongal (Trustee board) says on Jul 4, 2007, 11:10:

Goin South made a good point with "pronoun camp." I like the Practice Makes Perfect book on Spanish Pronouns and Prepositions. The exercises will help you a lot. I know it made a world of difference for me. If you know this is where you're struggling, pick up one of these books for extreme practice in the area.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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bueno_pues says on Jul 4, 2007, 13:52:

No gramática para mi. Los niños aprenden el idioma sin gramática. Escucho a mi esposa y repetir lo que oigo. Creo que es el "Communicative Strategy" del comentario de Rocinante.

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robi666 (Trustee board) says on Jul 4, 2007, 14:27:

Well, one can figure it out UC... :-)

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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bogjudge says on Jul 4, 2007, 20:32:

One word: immersion

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." -- Mark Twain

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bueno_pues says on Jul 4, 2007, 21:15:

En lunes cuando este en mi trabajo, debo pensar antes de hablar que debo hablar en el ingles. Despues una fin de semana con mi esposa todo en mi mente es el espanol.

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rocinante says on Jul 5, 2007, 08:46:

AN in depth conversation a while back - may be over the heads of some, but some good points were made:

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/second-language-acquisition-and-...

I agree totally with Aaron "intense means one-on-one teaching for five hours a day, five days a week for 3-6 months)." If this is heavy grammar with Communicative re-enforcement comprising 25% of the time/effort spent.

I did 3 months 3-4 hours 6 days a week one on one. We went through the whole language gramatically with communicative re enforcement throughout. All of Spanish I,II,II were "presented" to me and irregular verbs, spell changing present/gerund and preterite were drilled into me non stop - with tons of tedious drills. It really paid off.

Bottom line, with a tremendous gramatical base, picking up other books or watching movies or speaking with native speakers, your progress increases tenfold. While listening to advanced CDs or using the "practice makes perfect" books (The Pronoun and Preposition Book is awesome) the reasons why things are done already makes sense. At that point then "Para Llevar" immediately translates to "for/in order to carry" doesn't need to be written down as it will immedaitely "stick" because it makes sense.

If one does not have the gramatical structure of the language, they are stuck with memorization of sentences until the memorization subconsconsciously reveals patterns - at this point things are "picked up" or click in the mind of the adult learner - over a good deal of time. For an adult this is extrememly time consuming but works wonders when you are a child - it's how you learned your first language - as a 1 year old sponge.

If you DO have the gramatical structure of the langauge down, you plug in Idiomatic expressions and vocabulary, slang and "Para llevar" into already existing structures in your brain. MUCH faster and effective - for adults.

As an adult the road to fluency in the target language is RARELY if ever attained. Why? Because the method needed to do it is never taught.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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msaucey says on Jul 5, 2007, 09:26:

Hey Brians... Okay, it sounds like you've been trying way to hard and in-turn you have stressed your brain out beyond belief.... There's 2 simple tricks to help in grasping the "Roman Languages"....

First you have to find a novel, a book of fiction in a topic that would be interesting to you in English, but get the Spanish version of it and read it with pleasure.... Second, is find a movie a dvd that you really like that has spanish dubbing.... i.e. like "Bruce Almighty"... Actually most movies made by Universal are in English and also make the Spanish track available... What happens is that your brain will start registering common words in English with those in Spanish...

It's a whole lot less stressful then the 5 hours daily crash courses... This method gives you the ability to enjoy learning the language without as much pressure....

It works...

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

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rocinante says on Jul 5, 2007, 10:55:

regarding movies: A good thing is to watch with the spanish Audio AND the spanish subtitles. This way what is spoken and what is writen is in your eyes and ears simultaneously. HOWEVER most movies only sub title some of the dialogue. A good amount of it is edited out. A pity.

Also It's nice to know that Vosotros is hardley translated when dubbing blockbuster movies. I recall watching a film where the boss was talking to two workers as Tú and when addressing them together Ustedes was used.

Usually Vosotros is only translated in the Dubbing when someone IS from Spain and has that stupid accent - like in Las Tacones de Eva, (Which is not dubbed but you get the point).

It's just a testamanet that there are more "Movie Going" (and Spanish speaking) Latin Americans on the planet than Spaniards.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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getting better says on Jul 5, 2007, 14:51:

I was taught French at school for 7 years, and worked in a French bank for 14 years. I have never had a single hour's formal Spanish teaching, but my Spanish is a lot better than my French. OK my Spanish is not good, and my accent is terrible, but I get by because I talk to Colombians every day. Maybe I should try to learn it better, but it gradually improves. I find the Mircosoft Word spelling and grammar check quite good because if you spend a couple of seconds on each correction it makes, to try to understand the grammar mistakes on your emails, it helps you learn.

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pedro (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 5, 2007, 14:59:

ecco says on Jul 5, 2007, 16:31:

I agree with watching films with dubbed Spanish if you can. Msaucey has said it spot on- just one of my preffered methods that I had. Films you actually enjoy watching especially- being bored with something isn't fun and won't help. Films you like and have seen a few times over are useful as you may well know the lines or at least what any conversation/scene is about already. Then you could start to hear how the Spanish equivalent is, and you also pick up phrases and such. As rocinante says also- having the subtitles in Spanish also is good but he's right- a lot of times they completely butcher the text right down which is a shame. When I was learning, I went to the video shop to look for only films that only had Spanish as an extra language and if it sounded at least okay I would watch it.

I've only just begun to read in Spanish again after a long time of not doing so, and it's a good thing too as I'm realising there is a lot to learn from them, words and phrases you might here on the radio/movie suddenly appear and for me it is quite helpful to see it as well as hear it. Simple books, eg I'm reading the Harry Potter series. I was hesitant at first and felt a little childish, but I'm halfway through the series and I'm actually quite in to them now. There are still lots of bits I don't understand. A few times you can work it out from the context, other times I ignore the word, unless it starts appearing again and again and then I look it up in a big fat dictionary and so you're voaculary increases.

Just agreeing also with the point made by rocinante regarding learning the grammar first. I can't vouch for other ways, but this I can also recommend. I like to know why I'm saying something too, rather than just saying it. If you have been doing a lot of reading/studying, and then one day out in the street or bar or wherever, you hear that sentence/phrase being said- well I remember that as being quite satisfying. Kind of felt as if one of the many post-it notes floating around in my head with an expression or phrase on it- had just pinned itself to the board- 'I go here'. then it stuck, and I was sure to make sure from time to time that I use that same expression in one of my own full sentences/conversation.

For about a year I also kept a kind of diary thing- which in the end was always written in Spanish. Finally also, having a partner that only speaks their language is very helpful. I've had a 'special friend here in Seville for over a year- and her accent is very typical of the south of Spain. You

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bueno_pues says on Jul 5, 2007, 20:28:

"HOWEVER most movies only sub title some of the dialogue. A good amount of it is edited out. A pity."

Y los subtítulos son horribles!

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rocinante says on Oct 9, 2007, 06:26:

I usually hang out in the Spanish Language forum of PBH (time permitting) but this thread was started before Peter created that forum so....

Spanish Movies DVD....

One of the reasons why subtitles are butchered is because most movies are wordy and a good deal of dialogue needs to be presented at natvie speed - everyone in the movie is 99% a native speaker of the language. So subtitles are butchered.

Having someone speak to you live or in a movie who is using:

1.) Very advanced vocabulary
2.) Advanced or regional idiomatic experssions and or slang
3.) JUST PLAIN EASY SPANISH BUT AT HIGH SPEED

will never, ever, ever, ever, help you learn - who can make heads or tails of it?

Adding to the good advice already here regarding Spanish Movies DVD...

Getting movies that are originally spoken slowly - movies that take place in the southern US (Steel Magnolias), Or westerns, or older moves where people just plain talked slow (Casablanca) or movies that deal with the Personal Relationships containing conversational dialogue between two people in a couple (Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind - although there is no Spanish Language track the subtitles are spot on and the diagloge is slow and there is tons of stuff you would say every day in this movie to your girl or a new girl).

If the movies are originally spoken slowly, then the Spanish Language track is spoken in slower Spanish and the subtitles in Spanish tend to be more accurate.

Also avoid movies about nonsense no matter how great they were back in the day (CaddyShack, Blues Brothers, AnimalHouse)

Avoid movies that are pretty specialized or regional (Sienfeld NYC/Jewish humor, Sopranos Italian Mafia etc...) as they don't translate well. There is a lot of wasted dialogue.

Also don't put all your stock in the vocabulary in these movies (dubbed PanHispanico - Mexico) as some of the Vocabulary may not be used ever in your target country. Movies dubbed in Spain (there aren't many) ALWAYS cause some problems with Colombian University language instructors. So my advice is to pause the DVD and write down any vocabulary words that fly by in Spanish that you don't know and try to remember the scene in the movie. Afterwards communicate with your contact in the target country (Important) and ask about the words. You can improve your Spanish by explaining about the movie and try to mention the scene and present the vocabulary word - there may be a better vocabulary word for that region or a more colloquial way to say the same thing -THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT. Why learn and ingrain in your head a word or phrase that is never used in the target country?

Just think of all the practice this above exercise can give.

I saw a movie where the actor was in agreement with his friend and said "Estoy de acuerdo contigo" - this is never said in informal conversation here in Colombia - "claro" pretty much covers that. The reason the "Estoy de acuerdo contigo" was dubbed in was because the caracter was on camera - close-up and said "I'm with ya there man" so fitting in "Claro" would not have been enough.

I would just like to note that in Westerns and Pirate movies (Pirates of the Carib), the "I reckon he's a varmint" and "Ay you scallywag" are not dubbed (spoken or subtitled) in "Spanish Pirate" or "Yosimite Sam" - so learners are safe here.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Not that the US president actually runs the US." Feb 5, 2008

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