From my more "Sensitive" Side

adrimm says on Jun 6, 2006, 19:55:

? Funny, I've always found people in both the US and Colombia to be *quite* patriotic, but expressing it differently..

from my observations: In Colombia, it seems to often be regional as well, and expressed in music, sayings etc. Whereas in the US, it seemed patriotic becuase of the *huge* flags on lots of buildings, as well as the number of T-shirts, ballcaps, socks, you-name it with US emblazoned on it.

In the last decade though Colombian national patriotism with visible things (like the T shirts, those little woven bracelets, etc) seem to be really taking off.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jun 6, 2006, 20:03:

The businesses display the flags,but average citizens rarely do. in my city (10th largest in the US), there are more parade participants in Memorial Day Parades than observers!!..But i have never seen the Colombian flag patch sewn on a pair of pants either on the buttocks or to cover a hole.....

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...faltan 26 días...Colombia es pasión!

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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airetuPaL says on Jun 7, 2006, 08:04:

So wrong I guess Memorial Day, Labor day and the Fourth of July doesnt mean squat here. Its really about American attitude...some people really show their love for this country, while other [Americans] sadly dont give a f*ck. But hey, thats the wonderful part of living in the 'home of the free'.

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johna says on Jun 7, 2006, 08:34:

I am proud of our history.......... ...but not in the state of the nation today. Does that mean that I am unamerican? In my opinion a patriot points out problems doesn't just become a cheerleader for all things American. That is the great thing about the home of the free. I know that my comments on the previous thread ruffled some feathers, and I regret some of what I wrote. I do think that there are alot of positives in our culture, such as the charitable spirit. But there is also alot of ugliness, and I was more reacting to the idea that the reason we are discussing immigration now is because immigrants don't assimilate into our culture. Personally I think it is fine to love your country, better to question what your country does, and best of all think of your country as just a little area in a big world and not the end all be all of existence.

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 7, 2006, 08:39:

I agree with you and I am not a fan of nationalism at the expense of the rest of humanity. To me citizenship is an accident of birth.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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johna says on Jun 7, 2006, 08:52:

one day I am an ignorant slob and the next you agree with me on issues of nationalism. I must have done a lot of reading last night.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jun 7, 2006, 09:18:

Easy Tigers! jejeje....But i think if you leave politics out... there is only a minimal amount of pride in the US.....people are too busy in their lives to care or not interested...i would venture to guess that a majority of americans dont know the words to the Pledge of Allegiance, or the National Anthem...but they sure could tell you about American Idol!! And the national holidays are simply reasons to party and not work....the reason behind the holiday is lost on the masses...similar to Cinco de Mayo in California..very years CdM is a day for hispanic prison parolees to show off gang tattoos and get wasted in the city street, stabbing people, breaking window, and complaing of mistreatment by the police.....I am proud of my Country...but it is becoming a dying breed....how sad........but we have Reality Shows up the ying-yang!!! jejeje./..


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...faltan 26 días...Colombia es pasión!

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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johna says on Jun 7, 2006, 09:59:

MC have you heard about the history of cinco de mayo in the US? it is pretty funny. It was marketed in the US, by the big breweries as a "holiday" to sell beer and wear somberos without celebrating the Mexican Revolution. so they picked this somewhat obscure battle against the french who were trying to unseat the king of (spain Maximilian I?) from Mexico. So what are you suppose to do on a day like that other than get drunk and show of your prison tats (joke). I am sure you have probably heard that before about the origin, but I think it is pretty fitting when you see what it has become.

This is all from memory, I am sure if any of it is incorrect I will be
told of it very soon.

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 7, 2006, 10:41:

You're on a roll. Cinco de Mayo is not a day which is celebrated in Mexico like it is in the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_mayo

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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jaramillo says on Jun 7, 2006, 10:57:

Damm right Johna, you're wrong :) The battle of Puebla is not "obscure", except for some Americans for whom anything that happened outside the U.S. is "obscure". Maximilian the 1st was a Habsburg (House of Austria), and "Emperor" of Mexico. That damm, brilliant, magnificent zapotec "injun", Benito Juarez, took care of him. Keeping you straight Johna ;)

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johna says on Jun 7, 2006, 14:41:

I knew there was a know it all out there So you don't consider that event somewhat obscure huh? See how many people outside of Mexico know about the battle of Puebla. And honestly you are picking on the wrong American, It is not "somewhat obscure" (you notice you misqouted me) because it happened outside of the states, it is "somewhat obscure" because it is not widely known. Keeping you straight.:) also I have never used the term injun so why put it in quotes? And yes the Hapsburg were "the house of Austria" but of course you should know that they weren't confinded to what we call modern day Austria. But don't worry I am not that nit picky, like some other people. If I didn't know better, I would think you were being rude just because I am an American. You wouldn't do that would you?

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airetuPaL says on Jun 7, 2006, 16:53:

Thank you for the history lesson In the marketing firm where I work, 5 de Mayo is a major promotions bonanza that has nothing to do with the French, Mexicans or Austrians. 5DM has become a marketing blitz for US restaurants and bars to sell more liquor and food. Thats all.

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johna says on Jun 7, 2006, 17:03:

yep that was my point. It is nothing more than a gimmick to sell booze in the US. So what can you expect from a day like that?

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Rubiazo says on Jun 7, 2006, 17:14:

I couldn't be more clear Patriotism is for idiots. Anybody who is proud of his country is a moron . That's just as stupid as being proud of the color of your skin, and perhaps even less productive!

Tell me one good things that comes out of patriotism!

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Rubiazo says on Jun 7, 2006, 18:18:

Even better I got this off of livejournal.rodneyorpheus.com -- He elaborates much better than me a point of view that we share:

Y'know, anyone who thinks that being British makes you "unique", "special", "better" or whatever, really needs to get out and meet more people. The same goes for anyone who thinks that about being American, French, Mongolian, or whatever. The one thing you learn as you travel the world is that under the surface people really are the same everywhere.

That's one of the great achievments of the Enlightenment, and the fundamental basis of Freemasonry: the recognition of the universal Brotherhood of all.

Nationalism really is just the dumbest form of racism. At least racism has a pseudo-scientific reasoning behind it. Nationalism is just stupid primitive tribalism dressed up as something pretty.

For those that don't already know: I grew up in Northern Ireland, a place where nationalism causes immense grief, pain, and suffering. I have travelled the world much since then and never have I seen one instance where it has achieved anything positive. I detest it with a passion (as if you couldn't already tell).

Every individual person is unique and special. That's what the phrase "Every man and every woman is a star" means to me. To lump people into arbitrary groups so that they can achieve some form of "specialness" seems to me to denigrate the uniqueness each person already possesses.

This myth of patriotism serves only to get young men to march off to their deaths in order to further enrich those who already rule their lives by force. It's an abomination against mankind.

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johna says on Jun 7, 2006, 18:51:

I agree that nationalism has been used to justify violence and is being used as I write, but do you think that that means one should not love the land they were born in. we humans need a sense of home, it may be base, but it is universal. We need to feel like we belong to something bigger than ourselves. So I don't necessarily think that patriotism/nationalism is only for idoits and morons. But when that pat/nat. makes someone think that they are superior to anyone else that is when it becomes moronic. Like everything else there needs to be balance and understanding that absolutes are not good. so I stand by what I wrote before:

"Personally I think it is fine to love your country, better to question what your country does, and best of all think of your country as just a little area in a big world and not the end all be all of existence."

I really don't think we are very far off from each other though.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 7, 2006, 19:01:

If you don't think your country is superior you're not much of a nationalist. We have a lot of people on here touting the superiority of their own countries, usually as compared to a place like Colombia. Frankly it makes me puke! Like UC said, it's an accident where you were born anyways.

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johna says on Jun 7, 2006, 19:03:

Where did you go Jaramillo? You misquote and misrepresent my statements and then have nothing to say when you are called on it, pretty low.

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johna says on Jun 7, 2006, 19:06:

so then are you a patriot? ?

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airetuPaL says on Jun 7, 2006, 19:10:

I am... I am so glad to be an Earthling!

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johna says on Jun 7, 2006, 19:28:

yo ..... tambien!

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Colombiche says on Jun 8, 2006, 19:29:

I thought.. Nationalism was the belief that the nation is the fundamental unit for human social interaction - it refers more to the need to identify oneself with the people inhabiting within the political boundaries of what is referred to as a nation, but not necessarily the idea that one's nation is superior to another.

What you guys are discussing above sounds more like 'jingoism' or 'chauvinism'.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 8, 2006, 21:43:

You show me one person who is nationalistic without feeling his nation is superior to every other. Other than religion, I'd say nationalism is responsible for more wars than anything else on the planet. What would beings from another planet think about our stupid nations?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 8, 2006, 23:36:

Colombiche Nationalism is a FORM of chauvinism, along with racism, sexism etc.
It's one thing to not be ashamed of where you come from. It is another to be proud of it, especially to the point of exclusivity. In a nation like Colombia you can see lots of examples of both, unfortunately, and then you get people who see themselves as part of something bigger than just a nation, fortunately :)

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